Indian Military Aviation

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 29 Aug 2009 21:59

There is no such thing as 100% indigenous.

I completely agree with u Shiv that we cannot develop everything indegenously. But if we go by the data availaible on this page....

http://www.army-technology.com/projects/dhruv/

Then I don't see anything indigenous.....

Well Can u please shed some light on my other queries? That would be very helpful.....

Thanks

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 29 Aug 2009 22:04

Then I don't see anything indigenous.....

that is shocking indeed !!
could I request a favour of you and ask you to list these foreign items ?
TIA.

Mahendra · Post by **Mahendra** » 30 Aug 2009 00:16

Rahul Sirji

Any idea where the YYY agint is based? must be very close to other scientist who was saying that India tested Russian bums because the pindigenous ones failed

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 30 Aug 2009 11:37

Kartik wrote:some more details from AW&ST regarding the MiG-29K..

-The first 4 aircraft are expected to be delivered by this year end, 12 months behind schedule, as per an Indian Navy official, although there is no aircraft carrier for them yet. The fighters will be shore based until the situation is rectified

- Naval pilot instructors are now in a five-month training course in Russia, and India is subsequently planning to operate the MiG-29Ks for training purposes from Dabolim air base in Goa. As Russia did not have slots available for training 3 years ago, India sent pilots to train at the US Naval Air Training Command at NAS Kingsville, Texas and other institutes (I had once posted a scan showing an IN pilot whose interview was given in a Boeing Frontier's mag.). This was part of a strike-pilot program that was established in 2006 to train 32 pilots in batches of 4, every 6 months, over a period of 4 years.

Kartik,

I am not sure if the bolded part is entirely accurate. The russki side of the story is that the first 4 a/c were handed over to the IN in 2008 - just that the IN deputed pilots to train in russia.

CM.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 30 Aug 2009 12:23

could I request a favour of you and ask you to list these foreign items ?

Avionics : IAI
Active vibration control system : Lord Corporation of North Carolina
Integrated defensive aids suite (IDAS) : Saab
Engine : Turbomeca TM 333-2C till Shakti is fully developed
Flotation bags : FPT Industries, Portsmouth, UK

40 Dhruv's for AF were supplied with HAL developed avionics then why this contract with IAI.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 30 Aug 2009 12:33

Cain Marko wrote:
Kartik wrote:some more details from AW&ST regarding the MiG-29K..

-The first 4 aircraft are expected to be delivered by this year end, 12 months behind schedule, as per an Indian Navy official, although there is no aircraft carrier for them yet. The fighters will be shore based until the situation is rectified

- Naval pilot instructors are now in a five-month training course in Russia, and India is subsequently planning to operate the MiG-29Ks for training purposes from Dabolim air base in Goa. As Russia did not have slots available for training 3 years ago, India sent pilots to train at the US Naval Air Training Command at NAS Kingsville, Texas and other institutes (I had once posted a scan showing an IN pilot whose interview was given in a Boeing Frontier's mag.). This was part of a strike-pilot program that was established in 2006 to train 32 pilots in batches of 4, every 6 months, over a period of 4 years.
Kartik,

I am not sure if the bolded part is entirely accurate. The russki side of the story is that the first 4 a/c were handed over to the IN in 2008 - just that the IN deputed pilots to train in russia.

CM.

if that is true, then good. anyway a 12 month delay is not that severe, especially when the MiG-29Ks don't have a carrier to embark from anyway..shore based cover for the fleet could be provided by the IAF as well.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 30 Aug 2009 14:10

Anyone have updates or pictures on the ski-jump ramp being setup in Goa for Mig29K training purpose:?: Seems to be a natural progression after the Mig29K's arrive.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 30 Aug 2009 16:50

The Indian Air Force (IAF) has grounded its entire fleet of HPT-32 initial trainer aircraft owing to a series of crashes and engine failures.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Aug 2009 20:46

sunnyyy,

ANY air craft has a large number of components that are "imported". F-16, F-18, whatever. That is the economics part of the equation - just that there are some companies that build some thing a vendor needs better an cheaper than the vendor can.

However, there are critical or core technologies that are invariably kept in-house (I suspect some things like design, engines, radar - even here some sub-systems or components are open to imports).

For what it is worth, IF (BIG if) India buys the F-18, for instance, India will be the source for quite a few F-18 parts (or that is the current stated plan).

On IAI, it looks like that IAI has a rather large lead on avionics. So, it is not a surprise that they have been approached.

All this comes back to Indian chai-biscut thinking. Every time India makes progress we tend to forget in the euphoria of the moment that others have a better R&D and have gone to the next version. And to jump versions - or place catch-up - India NEEDS dynamite R&D - which she clearly does not have. IMHO, this can only get worse. The situation will need a huge amount of infusion of funds and brains and political will (which IMHO is what is the problem).

I doubt if there is anyone out there that would be happy to sell India the latest and greatest of core techs (they will sell the product, but never the know how).

So, in short, do not expect any system to be actually completely "Indian" - cannot happen (someone out there has a better design/cost for some sub-component that will force your hand). And, IMHO, any attempt by Indians to achieve slef reliance in the core techs will result in a furious push back - even at the political level, perhaps even black mail to some extent. (My thoughts)

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 30 Aug 2009 21:18

sunnyyy wrote:
could I request a favour of you and ask you to list these foreign items ?
Avionics : IAI
Active vibration control system : Lord Corporation of North Carolina
Integrated defensive aids suite (IDAS) : Saab
Engine : Turbomeca TM 333-2C till Shakti is fully developed
Flotation bags : FPT Industries, Portsmouth, UK

40 Dhruv's for AF were supplied with HAL developed avionics then why this contract with IAI.

thanks !!

so if I got just these particular items you (or any competent helicopter assembling factory) can create a complete helicopter from these things alone ??

do you really think so ???

only asking this since you implied that

I don't see anything indigenous.....

by default this implies that there are no other subsystems on the ALH beyond these foreign items.

just for the record, shakti has been developed sometime back and shakti equipped helos have been certified too.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 30 Aug 2009 23:00

NRao

Thanks a lot for your response sir....Clearly the main problem lies with the goverment policies.... I seriously wish to see Dhruv flying with more indegenous components than what it currently has.

Rahul M

Thanks you Sir for letting me know that Shakti has been certified.

Can you please shed some light on Dhruv for ASW?
Wiki says that it has been shelved. Is it true?
If yes, Is there any hope of revival of this project ?

Thanks

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 30 Aug 2009 23:20

sunnyyy wrote:NRao

..Clearly the main problem lies with the goverment policies....

Sorry if I came across that a way.

On the core technologies, yes, GoI should take the kick.

On other components it is pure economics - as long as it is not a Chinese component I would imagine (for India that is).

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 30 Aug 2009 23:43

Rahul M wrote:
just for the record, shakti has been developed sometime back and shakti equipped helos have been certified too.

Isn't Shakti also of largely French origin. Is there an source of info to tell what exactly HAL contributed for it.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 31 Aug 2009 08:06

sunny y wrote:Thanks you Sir for letting me know that Shakti has been certified.

Can you please shed some light on Dhruv for ASW?
Wiki says that it has been shelved. Is it true?
If yes, Is there any hope of revival of this project ?

Thanks

username changed to sunny y.

sunny, regarding the ASW dhruv, please have a look at old entries at ajai shukla's blog broadsword, including the comments section. there is still some confusion over this.

coming to the subsystems please understand that these are all by specialised pvt manufacturers who have a monopoly on not only the military but also the much larger civil market.
consider one such subsystem in your list for example, the Flotation bags from FPT.
a handful of manufacturers control the whole gamut of this and related products and therefore have massive advantages when it comes to economics of scale.

have a peek at their product line http://www.fptind.co.uk/

India required (say) 20-30 flotation bags at most, do you think it makes sense to invest in the complete R&D and certification of this non-critical tech for such a small requirement.
what's worse, your project will have time overruns if you fail to deliver it on time.

the sensible approach is to develop critical tech that no one will share in-house, get JVs with established players to mix and match capabilities and simply buy from abroad when it came to non-critical tech. this is what India has started doing the last 4-5 years.

Amit, this is what the turbomeca site says

The Ardiden is intended for helicopters in the 5 to 6.5-ton class. For its first application, the Dhruv, a first engine variant christened the Ardiden 1H1 (or "Shakti" in India) is jointly developed and producted with HAL.

but I do vaguely remember reading that the critical parts of the shakti are french. HAL is anyway not much of an engine designer.
p.s. no need for Sir.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 31 Aug 2009 08:17

No country has ever been 400% indigenous have a look at how the USA and the USSR got hold of scientists in the aftermath of the IInd WW and built upon a lot of critical skills IIRC this revolutionised their skill base. The first jet fighters were the British Meteor and the Me 262 from Germany but today we have Jet Fighters being made by every country from India to the US of A does that mean they are not indigenous ofcourse they are. Their inception has been in their respective countries and were built in their countries using parts from either their own or other countries.

The only countries that truly have displayed in the past the ability to make acs from start to scratch are the USA and the USSR now look at the size of their R&D budgets, their MOD budgets, their GOVT initiative and compare it to India and you will have your answer.

Look at the Eurofighter today 4 different countries are producing parts for this plane and it then gets assembled in the respective country for their own air forces.

When you dont have the necessary expertise it is imp. for you to get help wherever possible and then absorb that knowledge and build upon it this is what we are doing.

The above is what the USA and USSR did the late 40s with the jet fighter where the RR nene engine variants were used as the RD9 IIRC in the first Mig jet fighters.

Also our first chopper and 2nd combat ac are a lot more advanced and way more complicated than what the above countries did back in the day thus inevitably the need for external assistance.

Today the Bean counters demand cost efficiency in everything so unless you have an unlimited budget nothing is going to be 400% indigenous. (There are ofcourse exceptions such as Strategic Delivery Systems such as the Agni and the Prithvi rest all is Maya)

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 31 Aug 2009 09:00

I am keeping my fingers crossed about the MTA JV. For all the hard work put in my MOD regarding the paper work, things are moving at snail's pace. Praying that the JV moves towards manufacturing/assembly phase quickly.

ArmenT · Post by **ArmenT** » 31 Aug 2009 09:40

I would have put this as DDM if it wasn't posted by Vishnu Som.
http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/indias_f ... y_soon.php
India's first stealth fighter to fly in 4 months

Sriman · Post by **Sriman** » 31 Aug 2009 09:48

ArmenT wrote:I would have put this as DDM if it wasn't posted by Vishnu Som.
http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/indias_f ... y_soon.php
India's first stealth fighter to fly in 4 months

Russians have been saying PAK FA will fly this year, so this isn't unexpected. Technically it's not the FGFA which will be flying in November.

Edit: Vishnu has added his comments in the MRCA thread.

Drevin · Post by **Drevin** » 31 Aug 2009 10:38

Description: The multi-purpose transport aircraft (MTA), formerly referred to as MTS or MTC in Cyrillic, is being developed by Ilyushin Aviation Complex for the freight market. The aircraft will be powered by two high-by-pass ratio 23,000-pound class turbofan engines on underwing pylons from Russian or Western suppliers. The basic MTA will be be capable of carrying a cargo of 18.5 tons over a distance of 2,500 kilometers.
Specifications

Accommodation: Crew 2

Dimensions: Cargo Compartment Height 3.4 m, Cargo Compartment Length 13.9 m, Cargo Compartment Width 3.5 m, Fuel Tank Capacity 23,000 l (6,053 gl), Height 11 m, Length 33.2 m, Wingspan 30.1 m

Weights: Max Takeoff Weight 55 t, Payload 18.5 t

Engine/s Performance: Thrust 46,000 lb (20,866 kg)

Performance: Cruise Speed 850 kph (528 mph), Landing Run Distance 1,200 m (3,937 ft), Max Range 2,500 km (1,350 nm) with 18.5t or 6,000 km with 4.5t payload, Operational Altitude 13,000 m (42,651 ft), Service Life 30 yr, Take Off Run Distance 1,300 m (4,265 ft)

Other: Number of Engines 2, Service Life (Flight Hours) 60,000, Service Life (Flights) 40,000

link

Engines in the 23000 pound thrust class. Wonder which ones they are looking @

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 31 Aug 2009 13:23

Thanks Rahul & Andy

I will definitely look into Ajai Shukla's Blog......

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 01 Sep 2009 09:04

HAL offers trainer aircraft to resolve IAF crisis
http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... is/368722/

“Two years ago, we offered the IAF a replacement for the Deepak. This single-engine aircraft, which we call the Hindustan Turbo Trainer — 40 (HTT-40), can be delivered within six years.”

But a flustered IAF, short of pilots and keen to recommence training, is demanding immediate purchase of Stage-1 trainers from the global market. The Ministry of Defence is evaluating whether the IAF’s immediate requirement can be bought off-the-shelf, while HAL goes ahead with a programme to design and build the HTT-40. A total of 200 basic trainers is the estimated requirement.

Shreeman · Post by **Shreeman** » 01 Sep 2009 10:06

pandyan wrote:what is HAL waiting for? A silver plate with signed order letter? Why cant they invest their own money and come with a better plane and show it to the IAF? It will take another six years (with phoren collaboration?). As they know there is a problem with the engine, they should have taken responsibility and promptly addressed them...sigh...

Was done. Again, not taken up by end user when it should have been. Now the DDM "coffin" bit, then a phoreign purchase + TOT/CKD assembly - of a basic trainer!

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 01 Sep 2009 21:54

You have got to be kidding me... Foreign purchase of even the trainer aircraft... Are we that incapable of even designing a stage-1 Trainer aircraft... Or is the IAF over-exaggerating the recent crash of the Deepak in Dundigal (no disrespect to the brave officers intended) to import even this kind of aircraft...

correct me if i seem wrong in thinking along this line...

nikhil_p · Post by **nikhil_p** » 01 Sep 2009 22:38

Bala Vignesh wrote:You have got to be kidding me... Foreign purchase of even the trainer aircraft... Are we that incapable of even designing a stage-1 Trainer aircraft... Or is the IAF over-exaggerating the recent crash of the Deepak in Dundigal (no disrespect to the brave officers intended) to import even this kind of aircraft...

correct me if i seem wrong in thinking along this line...

Bala...AFAIK the Deepak suffers from a lot of engine flameouts and issues, which were resolved piecemeal. I remember reading an article which was about the various issues faced with the Deepak.
The fleet has been grounded in the past as well.
IIRC the Deepak also suffered from airframe issues...however I could be wrong on this one.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 01 Sep 2009 23:30

nikhil_p wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:You have got to be kidding me... Foreign purchase of even the trainer aircraft... Are we that incapable of even designing a stage-1 Trainer aircraft... Or is the IAF over-exaggerating the recent crash of the Deepak in Dundigal (no disrespect to the brave officers intended) to import even this kind of aircraft...

correct me if i seem wrong in thinking along this line...
Bala...AFAIK the Deepak suffers from a lot of engine flameouts and issues, which were resolved piecemeal. I remember reading an article which was about the various issues faced with the Deepak.
The fleet has been grounded in the past as well.
IIRC the Deepak also suffered from airframe issues...however I could be wrong on this one.

how can a piston engine suffer from engine flameouts ?

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 01 Sep 2009 23:44

he meant engine stopages due to fuel feed problems

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 01 Sep 2009 23:55

I don't think IAF can wait 6 years for a prop trainer.

at least for the time being perhaps they can outsource this level of training to pvt co's or at least lease trainers from them as a stop gap measure.

IIRC many air forces have already outsourced primary training to pvt cos.

Jagan, what's your take of the situation ?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 02 Sep 2009 03:17

Jagan wrote:he meant engine stopages due to fuel feed problems

Jagan, he may have meant it but he said flameouts. there's a BIG difference between jet engine flameouts and piston engines stopping due to fuel feed problems, which I'm sure you know.

Bheem · Post by **Bheem** » 02 Sep 2009 09:11

If HAL does the job itself then nobody benefits. A foreign joint venture and foreign components means lot of bribes. Massive corruption and the manner Indian R&D is being screwed is making India a laughing stock all over the world. Any arms dealer off the record will dish India after couple of drinks.

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Sep 2009 09:22

HAL blames BAE Systems for Hawk delays - Broadsword

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Sep 2009 09:51

Rahul M wrote:I don't think IAF can wait 6 years for a prop trainer.

at least for the time being perhaps they can outsource this level of training to pvt co's or at least lease trainers from them as a stop gap measure.

IIRC many air forces have already outsourced primary training to pvt cos.

Jagan, what's your take of the situation ?

I don't get it, Where is long term planning on part of IAF to phase these things out. They know projects get delayed, how come they don't start early at all ?

Bala Vignesh · Post by **Bala Vignesh** » 02 Sep 2009 12:14

pandyan wrote:priority one should be to identify to root cause of engine problems and address them. Is it so complex that they cannot even fix a piston engine problem? HAL should cover for all the expenses and fix the problem.

priority two should be to identify replacement plane.

Amen... I mean if we cannot solve an issue in a vintage piston engine, what hope is there to develop a state of the art jet engine...

As for the replacement aircraft, i think they already have an aircraft in mind that is why they are pushing for this...

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 02 Sep 2009 16:22

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11348

Shame on GoI. What was defence ministry doing ?
Don't be surprised if tommorrow these students decide to join LM or Boeing instead of DRDO.

We need to prevent these talented students from being lured by foreign companies. The least we can do is help them financially.....

GoI should start a programme where students who have successfully completed their projects & are interested in making further improvements will be helped by appropriate gov. department. E.g. If its related to communication then C-DOT can help them, if it has defence applications then DRDO or HAL can help them....

Sadly as of now I am not aware of any such programme.....

Thanks

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 02 Sep 2009 17:26

MiG-29K fighters ready, but no carriers

http://www.ndtv.com/news/india/mig-29k_ ... rriers.php

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 02 Sep 2009 17:30

sunny y wrote:http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11348
Shame on GoI. What was defence ministry doing ?
Don't be surprised if tommorrow these students decide to join LM or Boeing instead of DRDO.

Saar in India we have enough talented students to fill the staff of every foreign vendor and also India's defence. What we are lacking is managemnet culture which rewards work/ performance over nepotism and corruption. This kind of backward thinking only suits politicians.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 02 Sep 2009 18:04

Andhra CM goes missing in jungle

http://news.rediff.com/slide-show/2009/ ... sr-yet.htm

It's very serious.... News reports are saying that this area is a Naxal stronghold & YSR is clearly not naxal's favourite......

Remember he is responsible for elite greyhound commnados & we all know what greyhound's have done to Naxals......

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Sep 2009 18:13

Cybaru wrote:
Rahul M wrote:I don't think IAF can wait 6 years for a prop trainer.

at least for the time being perhaps they can outsource this level of training to pvt co's or at least lease trainers from them as a stop gap measure.

IIRC many air forces have already outsourced primary training to pvt cos.

Jagan, what's your take of the situation ?
I don't get it, Where is long term planning on part of IAF to phase these things out. They know projects get delayed, how come they don't start early at all ?

you tell me, I'm as mystified.

this is really poor planning both from IAF and HAL.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 02 Sep 2009 18:56

well apparently, if the fuel line problems are solved, there are enough HPT-32s to last a couple of decades if not more. The aircraft is good for its task, and it wouldnt need a replacement but for the engine stoppage issue (that HAL tried everything to fix but couldnt. (dont ask me what why, they just couldnt))

A draft ASR by the IAF for the next Basic trainer is already with HAL for atleast a couple of years if not more.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Sep 2009 19:01

is this a problem of the design of the aircraft or a problem of the engine ?
can this be solved with a different engine ?

Cybaru · Post by **Cybaru** » 02 Sep 2009 19:02

Jagan wrote:well apparently, if the fuel line problems are solved, there are enough HPT-32s to last a couple of decades if not more. The aircraft is good for its task, and it wouldnt need a replacement but for the engine stoppage issue (that HAL tried everything to fix but couldnt. (dont ask me what why, they just couldnt))

A draft ASR by the IAF for the next Basic trainer is already with HAL for atleast a couple of years if not more.

So engine issue? A replacement engine will solve the problem ??

Or engine-plane integration issue ?