shiv wrote:No such claim has been made sir. You are entering the realm of creating strawmen to knock down.
If so, what is the point of the below quote then and this comparison with the US? And stating that the MCA designers were pulling the wool over our eyes?All I am saying is that your rhetoric was misplaced.
Mrinal wrote:How can India develop counter stealth technologies if it has no stealth of its own?
There are two ways of doing this
1) As you suggest, build a stealth fighter first and then try to shoot it down
2) Understand that "stealth" (among other characteristics) means bringing down (for example) the cross section of a radar reflecting a/c from say 20 sq meters to 2 square meters. All you need to do is try and detect (and hit) 2 square meter targets from clutter.[/quote]
Again some confusion here.
Your first and two points are so highly correlated, that I am surprised you dont find the correlation. How for example do you know what the practical limits of RCS are, without extensively researching 1.
And furthermore, why do we need counter stealth technologies to begin with, when our likely opponents dont have stealth technologies and it is to our advantage to gain them to nullify their advantage in long range systems that can detect conventional aircraft.
Pursuing the MCA has nothing to do with aping the US - it has everything to do with going into the fight with the best possible chance of survival. That the US has come out with a good solution is a positive, as it allows us to observe their approach and pick up bits and pieces of what we require for our approach (in terms of approach to the problem).
The second assumption, related to the second point is that India is doing nothing about "bringing down the cross section of a radar reflecting aircraft" - India has done this. It is also pursuing programs to detect and intercept VLO RF radiating aircraft. These are again tied to our operational threats.
So I find the line of arguement that a) India does not need the MCA and b) a MCA is akin to aping the west - to be incorrect.
Again two ways of doing this
1) Make the assumption that everything the US does is "next gen" and try and ape that as we do now
2) Assume that what India can make with Indian capability is "current gen" and what india can develop using our own resources is next gen - without comparing with the US for validation. This is what China did.
Why would one think that what India is doing is 1) and not 2). Did the Indians call the MCA "advanced strike fighter" or MCA (as in an advanced follow on from the LCA". Clearly, they are following 2. There is no evidence yet to suggest that India is doing whatever US does. If it did that, then there would be no 3 fighter class strategy or LCA/MCA business.
We would just do what Taiwan did - assume that the US has the best technology, and license their engineers and R&D to make us a fighter, well in time, with some decent but nothing too advanced in terms of capability and call it some local name like they did with the Ching Kuo.
I would choose one route. The route you suggest is clear and in keeping with India's national ethos. That is what i have been trying to say.
Actually, the route you now suggest is being followed by Indian developers. Furthermore, India is developing a BMD system, CMs, strategic missiles - all of which have been done by the US before, following your reasoning so far, we would have to dump each and every one of these programs. But the point is they all have some unique features and capabilities that are tied to Indian needs.
To be honest - its not that what you are saying is wrong per se, its just that the examples you have chosen to support your point being right as they are "wrong" are flawed. If you look at it, the entire world is scrambling for stealth - its not because they ape the US, but because the US spend gazillions of money on coming up with the solution to radar directed weaponry and now that the secret is out of the box, everyone can try for it.
Furthermore, you call for UCAVs - is that not aping the US? So we ditch our manned aircraft development process and run after the next great thing...
Your point is more valid with respect to the specifications and procurement process than the development process. Because the manner in which the specifications and requirements are framed, relying on brochures and foreign OEM claims, that they end up reflecting a mish mash of systems developed abroad for doctrines framed abroad.
The only way we can get out of this trap is continuing the LCA-MCA etc model whatver we call it. Because if we dont, we will end up aping the west, because Indian developers will lack the basic understanding to innovate.
The word innovation is also highly abused - in a field such as aerospace, where the slightest mistake can lead to disaster, risk taking has to be subject to rigourous audit and verification. By the time a designer gets on that path in a meaningful manner, he has to have at least a decades worth of solid meaningful work behind him. How he will do that, if every attempt to create a systematic product development path gets waylaid by the next great thing...
Thats all I am saying..not attacking you per se but the logic behind the claims that we need to develop d, l, f or whatever without first doing a, b, c