Indian Military Aviation

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shyamd » 14 Oct 2009 23:12

Aditya G wrote:A good option. But I recall we have already evaluated these aircraft earlier and found them to be too expensive. PAF then tried to acquire the same and was apparently very close to a deal.

That was with Qatar, this is with UAE.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Bala Vignesh » 14 Oct 2009 23:39

Yup... And i remember reading an article in the MMRCA discussion thread where it was mentioned that the Mirages that were sold to UAE were completely customized to their wishes so that they could have a qualitative advantage... So i guess these birds would be far more capable that the 2000-5 standard upgraded birds we'll have...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 15 Oct 2009 01:05

Would Dassault consider this as a viable alternative to the MRCA deal? They will obviously get to sell Rafales.

Boy these small countries drive a real hard bargain.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SaiK » 15 Oct 2009 01:10

well, not sure how much dassault has the power play with their clouted hands and shoulders with IAF doctrine. getting business is one thing, and requirements is entirely a different thing.. especially when mmrca (/ot) is planned for the next 50 years or so.

of course, we would not mind those m2ks if given at a throw away price.. if that should make dassault happy as a rafale booster sales to both UAE and India. It depends entirely on the offer.

I am saying, if it comes with the weapons and other goodies for $10-12M a piece, then go for it!.. on the corollary, we could also have an agreement for the future with dassault-uae-India, for staging Rafales to UAE, and do a future swap deal at $20M a piece fixed per Rafale.

This way, UAE gets to use the latest, and India gets to force multiple, and perhaps upgrade them., of course with a legal clause that no platform been used without proper maintenance, and should not have used for more than 10 years.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby vishnu.nv » 15 Oct 2009 01:52

Taking in to account the current threat from china, This is a really good option to quickly increase the number of fighter aircraft in the service. With out much problem we can induct them in to IAF service.
Already we have infrastructure for more than 100 mirages in Gwalior.

Now don't expect all the 68 to come in one shot, The UAEAF will replace them as they will get the Rafael's. By procuring this we could also prevent them going in to the hand's of pak's at real throw away prices. Even though i fear this may happen with the Block-60 soon or later.

now Black saheen could really sweeten the deal :lol:

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby SaiK » 15 Oct 2009 02:01

our LCAs are quite good enough for paki blocks., and hope they get the required BVRs (akash/meteor) and AESA MMRs much before the 60 blocks happen., which is inevitable going by pakiness. plus a couple of MKIs to have the toast party.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 15 Oct 2009 07:01

Bala Vignesh wrote:
shiv wrote:That's not a twin boom. It's just a single tailplane with twin vertical tail surfaces. Pretty standard for many Kamovs


Shiv saab... isn't the boom the tubular structure that between the tail surfaces and cabin pod... if that is so the ka 226 has twin booms unlike the Ka 31 or for that matter the rest of the series..


Well it did not appear like that to me on the video. Having said that it is a bad video with mostly side on views. Let me Google for some pics and I will post a message on here if I am wrong (or right)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby shiv » 15 Oct 2009 07:06

shiv wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:
Shiv saab... isn't the boom the tubular structure that between the tail surfaces and cabin pod... if that is so the ka 226 has twin booms unlike the Ka 31 or for that matter the rest of the series..


Well it did not appear like that to me on the video. Having said that it is a bad video with mostly side on views. Let me Google for some pics and I will post a message on here if I am wrong (or right)


Yes Bala Vignesh, good catch. I was mistaken. It is a twin boom but the twins are spaced so close that the twins are not visible unless the angle of view is suffciently large.

Here is the best pic I could find of the twin boom

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/ ... ks2005.jpg

From other pictures it appears that the twin boom is to aid lifting and loading from the door at the rear.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 15 Oct 2009 07:08


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Austin » 15 Oct 2009 07:12

Indeed the Ka-226 design is interesting , its entry into LOH competition makes it all the more interesting , it is powered by twin engine though its still in LUH category , atleast there will be some competition to Bell and Eurocopter.

As far as HAL LOH offer goes , well they do not have any flying chopper on the table , although the LOH design looks promising since they are supposed to be powered by Shakti engine giving it a big logistics advantage.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Bala Vignesh » 15 Oct 2009 09:27

shiv wrote:Here is the best pic I could find of the twin boom

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Aircraft/ ... ks2005.jpg

From other pictures it appears that the twin boom is to aid lifting and loading from the door at the rear.


This picture also shows how small the whole aircraft is... I mean, its not like the cheetah we fly today but unlike the Mi series, its really small which should help even in COIN ops in the region.. Any news whether it can carry any arms???

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2009 09:34

one could picture the ugly snout of a manned beltfed MMG projecting out of the rear

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Singha » 15 Oct 2009 10:18

excerpt from TOI:

After reactivating western sector ALGs like Daulat Beg Oldi, Fukche and Nyama in eastern Ladakh, IAF is now concentrating on upgrading eastern sector ALGs like Pasighat, Mechuka, Walong, Tuting, Ziro and Vijaynagar as well as several helipads in Arunachal.

Though India woke up rather late to China's rapid enhancement of operational logistics all along the unresolved 4,056-km Line of Actual Control, the armed forces are now fast-tracking measures to strategically counter the People's Liberation Army under a Rs 5,000-crore plan approved by the UPA government.

These range from raising two new specialised infantry mountain divisions (over 30,000 soldiers) and an artillery brigade for Arunachal to procuring 17 armed speed-boats for Pangong Tso lake (Ladakh) and deploying Sukhoi-30MKI fighters in the North-East.

IAF, incidentally, is also going to deploy surface-to-air Akash missile systems, with an interception range of 25 km, as also other air defence missiles, to guard against hostile fighters and drones in the North-East.


Holding that Indian armed forces did not "fear'' the 2.25-million strong People's Liberation Army, even though it may be double in size, Air Marshal Barbora said the PM's mandate was to develop infrastructure in the entire North-East, especially Arunachal Pradesh, which had been left out of the mainstream for many years.

He was, however, quick to stress that the "creation of assets'' was not directed against China. "It's not country or adversary-specific. We are just building capabilities in tune with our requirements. These ALGs, for instance, will help to make air maintenance operations more effective as well as also boost tourism,'' he said.

While this is certainly true, it is primarily aimed at countering China, which has upgraded as many as 14 airfields in Tibet, of which at least half are fully-operational. Its Linzi airbase, for instance, is not even 30 km away from the LAC in Arunachal.

To counter some of this, IAF has been allocated around Rs 2,000 crore to upgrade the ALGs and airbases like Tezpur, Chabua, Hashimara and other airbases in the North-East. After the first two Sukhoi-30MKI squadrons become operational at Tezpur, Chabua will be the next in line.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby D Roy » 15 Oct 2009 10:29

The Chinese can lengthen their runways on the plateau as much as they like. They still won't be able to permanently base their air force in any meaningful way.

The PLAAF will continue to be Kunming centric with respect to this theater.which is why the generals in Myanmar need to be kept in good humour.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Mahendra » 15 Oct 2009 15:18

Got this in my inbox from Mullah Nayakuddin.

Latest Scans, courtesy vayu.

:P :P :P


Image
Image
Image

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Mahendra » 15 Oct 2009 15:23

Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

Scans - courtesy vayu / nayakuddin

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Baldev » 15 Oct 2009 17:20

indo russian heavy lift helicopter may be this

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... Page_2.jpg

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Bala Vignesh » 15 Oct 2009 23:49

Baldev wrote:indo russian heavy lift helicopter may be this

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... Page_2.jpg


I thought HAL had canceled the Medium and Heavy Lift helicopter programs to concentrate on IJT and HTT 40....

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby kedar.karmarkar » 16 Oct 2009 00:48

vaman wrote:Image
Image
Scans - courtesy vayu / nayakuddin


I see, couple of my photos make it in the article.

The Su formation shot is from Red Flag at Nellis.

The Il shot is from the day they arrived at Mountain Home.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Baldev » 16 Oct 2009 02:55

Bala Vignesh wrote:
Baldev wrote:indo russian heavy lift helicopter may be this

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_44d3OT-xI3U/S ... Page_2.jpg


I thought HAL had canceled the Medium and Heavy Lift helicopter programs to concentrate on IJT and HTT 40....
then you thought wrong

medium and heavy lift helicopter programs were cancelled because of increased demands from armed forces for these helicopters so new proposal with increased capability will be issued

developing medium lift helicopter as MI 38
and heavy lift helicopter as MI 46

now thing is whether russia starts production of mi26 again or they go with MI46 :D which can be done in 150-200 million

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby A Sharma » 16 Oct 2009 04:27

Shiv aroor in his blog is reporting a possible sale of 2 more ALH to Ecuador and possible buy of 10 C-17 Globemaster III by IAF.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby A Sharma » 16 Oct 2009 04:45

HAL Minsk
Nice report on ALH in Siachen.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Gagan » 16 Oct 2009 05:21

619 Kg at 5400+ m height at 0 degree :eek:
Bismilla, that's like < 100 Kgs for the cheetah. (more like ~60 Kgs for the cheetah)

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Bala Vignesh » 16 Oct 2009 10:08

Baldev wrote:then you thought wrong

medium and heavy lift helicopter programs were cancelled because of increased demands from armed forces for these helicopters so new proposal with increased capability will be issued

developing medium lift helicopter as MI 38
and heavy lift helicopter as MI 46

now thing is whether russia starts production of mi26 again or they go with MI46 :D which can be done in 150-200 million


Thanks.. I stand corrected... the previous Medium lift chopper had 10-15 tons payload.. so this is the proposed medium lift helicopter eh??? looks like the tonned version of Mi 26...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Igorr » 16 Oct 2009 13:00

Baldev wrote:now thing is whether russia starts production of mi26 again or they go with MI46 :D which can be done in 150-200 million
The Mi-26 production is following in low rate according to demands. Last years a number of these helos were supplied for Venezuela and China.
Mi-46 - is something different, since it has lower dimension (up to 12 t lifting capability instead of Mi-26 22 t). It seems to be more economical in most situations.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Austin » 16 Oct 2009 13:15

The other interesting thing is Mig-27 upgrade , I think they will reengine it with AL-31F engine as part of upgrade

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Bala Vignesh » 16 Oct 2009 19:02

Austin wrote:The other interesting thing is Mig-27 upgrade , I think they will reengine it with AL-31F engine as part of upgrade

Seriously??? That should help in reducing the inventory for the IAF... But I feel it'll be a tad underpowered compared to the R-29...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby saptarishi » 16 Oct 2009 21:42

any news on jaguar re-engine program ?

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby putnanja » 16 Oct 2009 22:16

Ajai Shukla's blog mentions that the negotiations with Dassault to upgrade Mirage 2000 planes have failed. He also mentioned that the Israelis offered to do it for half the cost but MoD refused. Anyone knows why they refused? Is it due to the contract with Dassault or something different? Some of the Migs were upgraded with Israeli tech, but later on if I remember right, Russia insisted that only it can upgrade the weapons supplied by it.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Austin » 16 Oct 2009 22:29

If some other than the OEM does the complete upgrade , then mostly likely the aircraft will loose the complete OEM warranty and the OEM will stop supporting it period.

Although 3rd party can still chip in their system , if the end user and OEM agrees to it.

The MOD cannot afford to give M2K upgrade contract to Israel or Russia or any one , without the explicit nod from the OEM , else Dassult will stop supporting M2K.

This looks more likely that Dassault and MOD playing the cat and mouse game , where Dassult would like to skin the last bit of $$ from the upgrade and MOD responding via selective leaks trying to bargain with Dassault.
Last edited by Austin on 16 Oct 2009 22:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Baldev » 16 Oct 2009 22:30

RaviBg wrote:Ajai Shukla's blog mentions that the negotiations with Dassault to upgrade Mirage 2000 planes have failed. He also mentioned that the Israelis offered to do it for half the cost but MoD refused. Anyone knows why they refused? Is it due to the contract with Dassault or something different? Some of the Migs were upgraded with Israeli tech, but later on if I remember right, Russia insisted that only it can upgrade the weapons supplied by it.
its simple israel can upgrade avionics but can't upgrade airframe and engines which can only be done by dassualt so its better to go with dassualt as sole contender for upgrade :D

this is just like israel upgraded mig21 and mig29 but israel can upgrade avionics but not engines and airframe which can only be provided by russia.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 16 Oct 2009 22:36

RaviBg wrote:Ajai Shukla's blog mentions that the negotiations with Dassault to upgrade Mirage 2000 planes have failed. He also mentioned that the Israelis offered to do it for half the cost but MoD refused. Anyone knows why they refused? Is it due to the contract with Dassault or something different? Some of the Migs were upgraded with Israeli tech, but later on if I remember right, Russia insisted that only it can upgrade the weapons supplied by it.


Check out the proposal from MoD itself: buy two more squads of the MRCA. Why pay EVEN for Israeli upgrades?

I tend to agree with the MoD on this one.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby a_kumar » 16 Oct 2009 23:01

Baldev wrote:its simple israel can upgrade avionics but can't upgrade airframe and engines which can only be done by dassualt so its better to go with dassualt as sole contender for upgrade :D

this is just like israel upgraded mig21 and mig29 but israel can upgrade avionics but not engines and airframe which can only be provided by russia.


From Ajay's blog..
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price --- Rs 196 crores (US $41 million) per aircraft --- unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Craig Alpert » 16 Oct 2009 23:08


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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby putnanja » 16 Oct 2009 23:17

NRao wrote:Check out the proposal from MoD itself: buy two more squads of the MRCA. Why pay EVEN for Israeli upgrades?

I tend to agree with the MoD on this one.


If you look at the article, the upgrades as per Dassault costs around Rs 196 crores per plane. New plane costs Rs 400 cr. Israelis offer of half that of Dassault would work out to around Rs 98 cr per plane. So we can upgrade four planes instead of purchasing one new plane. And it is not like these planes are falling apart. They still have life in them for another 15-20 years with refurbishment. Hence my question

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Nikhil T » 16 Oct 2009 23:20

The Mirage upgrade deal was too expensive at nearly $41 million per a/c. Thats what I've been maintaining for long.

MoD has taken a brave stand, we need to stand up to the French. First they close the assembly line and then they armtwist over the spares and upgrades. I'd say, screw the Rafale - its damn expensive anyway.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Baldev » 16 Oct 2009 23:39

a_kumar wrote:
Baldev wrote:its simple israel can upgrade avionics but can't upgrade airframe and engines which can only be done by dassualt so its better to go with dassualt as sole contender for upgrade :D

this is just like israel upgraded mig21 and mig29 but israel can upgrade avionics but not engines and airframe which can only be provided by russia.


From Ajay's blog..
The Ministry of Defence (MoD) considers this price --- Rs 196 crores (US $41 million) per aircraft --- unacceptably high, given that the airframes and engines will not be changed.
how airframe can be changed :?: this means above report is not written in correct way

engine and airframe will not be changed but it doesn't mean these won't be upgraded

all the systems of airframe will be removed and will be assembled again with new systems required and airframe strengthening will be done so that it lasts for 20 years more years

israel doesn't do M2000 airframe or engine upgrade nor it produces spares for airframe and engine.

but ya 41 million for each m2000 is costly compare this to IL 38 upgrade deal which cost 35 million for each aircraft

if israel says that they can do the upgrade for 20 million so it becomes clear that they will being 2032 radar with MFD,EW and their weapons but then again mig29 upgrade cost is just 17-18 million per aircraft

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Bala Vignesh » 17 Oct 2009 00:00

Nikhil T wrote:The Mirage upgrade deal was too expensive at nearly $41 million per a/c. Thats what I've been maintaining for long.

MoD has taken a brave stand, we need to stand up to the French. First they close the assembly line and then they armtwist over the spares and upgrades. I'd say, screw the Rafale - its damn expensive anyway.


Amen Nikhil sir... My emotions are along the same lines about the rafale... But i don't blame them for closing the lines... it was the viable thing for them to do...

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby NRao » 17 Oct 2009 02:12

RaviBg wrote:
NRao wrote:Check out the proposal from MoD itself: buy two more squads of the MRCA. Why pay EVEN for Israeli upgrades?

I tend to agree with the MoD on this one.


If you look at the article, the upgrades as per Dassault costs around Rs 196 crores per plane. New plane costs Rs 400 cr. Israelis offer of half that of Dassault would work out to around Rs 98 cr per plane. So we can upgrade four planes instead of purchasing one new plane. And it is not like these planes are falling apart. They still have life in them for another 15-20 years with refurbishment. Hence my question



Sure, that is logical.

But, MoD looks at life in a different way. They want to negotiate wit Dassault and Dassault seems to be very, very stubborn about their quote. So, I suspect this is ALSO a bargaining tool.

I am sure that IF the MoD goes with Israel the French will void something else.

Greed all around.

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Re: Indian Military Aviation

Postby Baldev » 17 Oct 2009 03:09

NRao wrote:Greed all around.
very true,and there is no single deal which is corruption free even with israel :|


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