MRCA News and Discussion

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NRao
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 15 Sep 2009 22:15

Eurofighter Typhoon

In addition to core production in the four original Eurofighter nations a number of other companies from various countries are involved. BAE Systems Australia is at present investigating conformal fuel tanks and working on software related to the Typhoon. In Norway, Kongsberg Protect manufacture the front wheel well covers. Although Greece has signalled its intent to join the Eurofighter consortium by purchasing 60 aircraft its current industrial contribution is limited to producing external fuel tanks. This situation is expected to increase once formal contracts are signed. A number of U.S. companies are directly or indirectly involved in Eurofighter, for example Planar and dpiX supply the Eagle-6 AMLCD units for the cockpit displays.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Bala Vignesh » 15 Sep 2009 23:02

sunny y wrote: Rolls-Royce of Italy

:?: :?: :?: :?:
I thought Rolls Royce was British... couldn't resist my primal instinct of nitpicking...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sunny y » 15 Sep 2009 23:07

Thanks Sriman & NRao for clearing the doubts.....

These Amirkhan guys have started irritating me....Their companies are involved in everything. I mean how much money do these guys have ??

If that's the case then I think except for F-18, F-16 & MiG-35, every other aircraft in this competition is useless....They are already out of the competition.....Why are they wasting their money for these trials ??

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sunny y » 15 Sep 2009 23:10

:?: :?: :?: :?:
I thought Rolls Royce was British... couldn't resist my primal instinct of nitpicking...


Yes right, that was a mistake.... :(
Rolls Royce is British.....I forgot to mention Avio...it is italian company

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby b_patel » 15 Sep 2009 23:26

I figured that this was the best thread to put this in.
How Obama tried to eliminate the Rafale!!
http://secretdefense.blogs.liberation.fr/defense/2009/09/br%C3%A9sil-comment-obama-a-tent%C3%A9-de-descendre-le-rafale.html

RAFALE: how Barack Obama has failed to lose the French

[14/09/09]

When he landed in Brasilia, Sunday, September 6, Nicolas Sarkozy knew last week the choice of Lula. But he knew that in the meantime the competition has succeeded in puting doubt in the Brazilians. Back on negotiations crucial to the future of French weapons.

When he landed in Brasilia, Sunday, September 6 to 19 hours local time (midnight in Paris), Nicolas Sarkozy has only one idea in mind: to get President Lula - the welcoming in person - he announces Next day, on the occasion of National Day, the Rafale is out of the first tender for the purchase of 36 combat aircraft. The relationship between the two men are excellent, and the case is presented well. Two days earlier, the Brazilian head of state has suggested that France is best placed, given the level of technology it is ready to move, a decisive factor in separating plane of its French competitors F - 18 of Boeing and Saab's Gripen NG.
Battle of influence

The comments are encouraging, but for the uninitiated, they do not completely lift the doubt. For Nicolas Sarkozy and a handful of employees, however, surprising. For the previous Monday, Lula called his counterpart to make known its choice. But he also says he does not know if he can tell. And he recalled Wednesday or Thursday, after conferring with his Defense Minister, Nelson Jobim, and the Chief of Staff of the Air Force, General Saito. Absent the time comes (it is in Chile), the latter prevents the meeting to be held, leaving the Elysee Palace in expectation. The Brazilian president does not remember Nicolas Sarkozy, who then ignores the meantime lobbying by Boeing and Washington seriously any threat to derail.

Until early summer, the game comes down to three but in a dual French-Swedish. From mid-July, change of atmosphere: Boeing and the Obama administration held the steamroller. from his resort, the U.S. President called Lulla to say him that the United States go further in terms of technology transfer , and he vouches for the Congress, whose approval is required. "I can confirm later," says he. For its part, Boeing and its relay began distilling negative information on the Rafale, forcing Paris to be developed through various channels.

The battle of influence continues. Given that Boeing has strong arguments to focus Embraer, Paris agrees to buy a dozen KC390. The Air Force Brazilian continues the technical evaluation of the three planes. Whereas late August, the report is shifted to late October. but Lula take note of the broad lines. And August 31, he called his friend Nicolas ...

The key is played behind the scenes

Boeing and Washington then trying to shake the building .A senior Brazilian presents evidence clearly unfavorable to the Rafale to President Lula and his minister of defense. The Rafale hour flight would be $ 21,000, almost 3 times more expensive than the F-18, which is heavier . Brazil would not get the exclusive export to South America. Worse, it would cost 70% of the contract before receiving the first plane. "We do not think it would go this far in disinformation," said a negotiator.The string is a little big, but it works. And then, as he had promised, Obama called Lula to confirm that Congress is in the pocket.

When the reception starts Sunday night at the Alvorada Palace, the discomfort is real, and collaborators of Nicolas Sarkozy would soon make account. Discreetly warned ,the head of the French state say to its counterpart. "Let us make this clear tomorrow morning," suggested the Brazilian. "Why wait? We can work this night, "says the French president. For the Elysee, the risk is clear: do not cut to the heart, is leaving for a tour, and - perhaps - losing everything.

It is just over 20 hours. The dinner starts, but most will play behind the scenes. The owner of Dassault, Charles Edesltenne, who tasted the succulent local beef in a restaurant in the city with his staff, received a phone call: "Go to 23: 30 pm at the hotel. In a Golden Tulip room are then left Nelson Jobim, General Saito, Ambassador of Brazil in Paris, and Marc Aurelio Garcia, Lula's diplomatic sherpa. French side: Chief of Staff particular Sarkozy, his deputy Colonel Noguier, diplomatic advisor to the Elysée, Jean-Daniel Levitte, Charles Edelstenne and his deputy for international Eric Trapier.

Up to 3 hours of the morning, without interruption of the session, four or five points that raise questions are clarified. At each advance, a common paragraph is written in Brazilian and French. Finally, a letter covering all the Paris commitments. Nicolas Sarkozy is woken, validates the text and the sign. Lula has a commitment at the highest level of the French state. Nothing opposes the announcement of the entry into negotiations. It remains to conclude them.

p.s. I know this is from a blog but I wouldn't be surprised if something similar to this occurred during Sarkozy's visit. Makes you wonder how far each of the contenders will go to win in India!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 15 Sep 2009 23:58

EJ2000:

Code: Select all

Company     Development     Production
Rolls Royce 33 %             34,5 %
MTU         33 %             30,0 %
AVIQ        21 %             19,5 %
ITP         13 %             16,0 %

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 16 Sep 2009 00:08

Yudhajit wrote:Here’s my view on the Gripen ( based on the discussions so far) . I’ve been lurking around for some time, so guru logs please forgive any bhul chuk.

The main advantages and disadvantages for Gripen (as compared to F16, which is also a single engine fighter), appear to be as follows:

Advantages –

1) Has a unique Swashplate radar that can track targets 100 degrees on either side, with a Tactical Data Link to improve situational awareness
2) Ability to land and take off from ordinary roads (not yet sure about Indian roads though)
3) Shortest turn-around time of 10 mins for undertaking the next sortie
4) Shortest engine replacement time of 1 hr approx.
5) Cheapest among all to operate
6) Willing to provide full ToT

The first few advantages are unique to Gripen and appear to have the potential of being real game changers.

Disadvantages –

1) Gripen has never been in a real life combat situation, unlike the F16 -

But F16s too have mostly seen action only against much weaker adversaries (in terms of training and weapons systems). How many real tough combat '==' type situations has it faced?

2) Gripen is too close to the Tejas LCA (in terms of weight class?) -

Firstly, Tejas is still in development, and may not have some of the unique features that Gripen has. Secondly, the IAF has already taken the decision to go for a foreign product (because Tejas was delayed), and if the Tejas project has to suffer, it will suffer anyway. (Let me make it clear at this point that I fully support indigenous development, and have been following the development of Tejas with great pride)

3) Gripen Comes with no strategic advantage -

Well, it doesn't come with a strategic baggage either (unlike the F16), which could actually be seen as an advantage.

4) Some parts (like the AESA Radar) are still in R&D stage - Only a matter of time.

Overall, I think the advantages of choosing Gripen far outweigh the so called disadvantages.


good post Yudhjit. you pretty much summed up what the Gripen IN's position in the MRCA contest is. let me add a couple of points-

- Saab is, alongwith MiG, in the most vulnerable position amongst all of the candidate companies. All the rest are giants (EADS, LM, Boeing) or athis means that GoI and IAF can drive home the best bargain with either of these companies, both in terms of acquisition costs as well as for costs to incorporate capabilities required as part of a roadmap, until at least 2025 (after which new technologies may emerge that will require to be charted as well).

MiG's record of after sales support is terrible whereas Saab's is at least uptil now, excellent. Saab on its Gripen website, has explicitly stated that its willing to partner India in its 5th generation fighter program, the MCA. with South Korea and Brazil likely not to emerge as nations with whom it could collaborate, India is the only big Air Force with a 5th gen fighter program in the offing.

the only question is whether the IAF will take these factors into account at all, or simply go by the technical and cost criteria it has in the MRCA selection process.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Sep 2009 02:20

X-posting.

I would think this: Sing NPT, accept full safeguards US want UN to tell India, would have a huge impact on not selecting either of the US MRCA offers.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Z-bLuffer » 16 Sep 2009 02:37

GeorgeWelch wrote:
Bala Vignesh wrote:France has no immediate credible threat to them or their interests from us in the foreseeable future.


France had no immediate credible threat to them or their interests from Argentina either, yet they still had backdoors to disable the Exocets they sold them, and then they rolled over and gifted those codes to the Brits

True.

But it's perfectly logical since France and the UK have been natural allies for ages, all the more so under the EEC despite Thatcher's Euroscepticism.

It does seem obvious that if India buys weapons from the French, they will disable those if India tries to use them against any European country. This would probably be true as well if the weapons are aimed at the US (de facto allies of Europe); yet the current aggressive foreign policy led by the US is very unpopular in Europe nowadays so it's very unlikely that the French will do anything to disable the weapons if India tries to use them against the US ally of the moment (follow my eyes).

Added to that, India enjoys a reputation of being a peaceful, democratic and secular country contrary to China (rude foreign policy, not a democracy) and Pakistan (not a secular country). Gandhi's action is taught in schools of Europe. The more values you share with your neighbour, the easier you'll tolerate his actions.

Sorry to state the obvious, but I think this thread deserved to go back to basics.

(BTW: hello! 1st post here. :) )

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Sep 2009 02:58

There is really NO alternative to India building her own set of components. Specially today, with the amount of electronic means and dependencies, the chances of 'malicious' whatever is bound to be very, very high. Forget defense related, even in civilian industrial applications there is PLENTY of snooping - among so called allies.

We have to remember that each nation (India is an exception) loves themselves first, and then, perhaps, some other nation second.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby rajsunder » 16 Sep 2009 03:12

Z-bLuffer wrote:True.

But it's perfectly logical since France and the UK have been natural allies for ages, all the more so under the EEC despite Thatcher's Euroscepticism.

It does seem obvious that if India buys weapons from the French, they will disable those if India tries to use them against any European country. This would probably be true as well if the weapons are aimed at the US (de facto allies of Europe); yet the current aggressive foreign policy led by the US is very unpopular in Europe nowadays so it's very unlikely that the French will do anything to disable the weapons if India tries to use them against the US ally of the moment (follow my eyes).

Added to that, India enjoys a reputation of being a peaceful, democratic and secular country contrary to China (rude foreign policy, not a democracy) and Pakistan (not a secular country). Gandhi's action is taught in schools of Europe. The more values you share with your neighbour, the easier you'll tolerate his actions.

Sorry to state the obvious, but I think this thread deserved to go back to basics.

(BTW: hello! 1st post here. :) )


change your name to proper persons name, you better do it fast or else a mod would do it for you. And i am sure u do not want to start on this forum on a bad note.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Z-bLuffer » 16 Sep 2009 03:23

NRao wrote:There is really NO alternative to India building her own set of components. Specially today, with the amount of electronic means and dependencies, the chances of 'malicious' whatever is bound to be very, very high. Forget defense related, even in civilian industrial applications there is PLENTY of snooping - among so called allies.

We have to remember that each nation (India is an exception) loves themselves first, and then, perhaps, some other nation second.

Of course the chances are high (although 'high' is a relative thing), but they are higher in some cases than others. I guess India would have something she doesn't control 100% rather than nothing. Hence the MRCA competition.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Z-bLuffer » 16 Sep 2009 03:31

rajsunder wrote:
Z-bLuffer wrote:change your name to proper persons name, you better do it fast or else a mod would do it for you. And i am sure u do not want to start on this forum on a bad note.

I did not know user names were taken seriously here, I am sorry for that. (I still hope the current one does not weaken my case.)
Unfortunately I cannot manage to change my user name (to "Matt P") in the control panel.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Sep 2009 03:39

Z-bLuffer wrote:Of course the chances are high (although 'high' is a relative thing), but they are higher in some cases than others. I guess India would have something she doesn't control 100% rather than nothing. Hence the MRCA competition.


I think (and have felt this for some 10+ years now) that India herself is THE problem. And, until India solves India as a problem these outside generated problems will always remain. Why would they not? That is part of the game. Either play it to win or make your own game and associated rules.

The way I see the topic of 'malicious code' is - if it bothers you, do not buy the product, or, if you need the product so badly then live with it. The ONLY other option is to make it yourself - something India has not been good at - even with a tremendous amount of brain power that the country generates.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby PrithviRajChauhan » 16 Sep 2009 03:41

NRao wrote:X-posting.

I would think this: Sing NPT, accept full safeguards US want UN to tell India, would have a huge impact on not selecting either of the US MRCA offers.


Hence the demise of F16 and F18. Actually I feel its good for India as we can consider the remaining options. If the pressure from B "Hussein" O crosses thresh level ,this would be great time for Pokharan 3.
I feel this will impact Gripen as well. Although a wonderful fighter and probably best suited for IAF but if this NPT thing is true, it would be harakiri for GoI to buy anything critical from the Khans.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Sep 2009 03:44

PRaj ji,

One word of caution.

Obama would be equally open to allowing India a LOT more ToT on the other hand. Obama in particular I mean - not the GOTUS/POTUS as an entity.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby PrithviRajChauhan » 16 Sep 2009 03:51

But NRao ji,

By nuclear castrating India, would that ToT be any good ?
Strange policies of BO, on one hand TSP is increasing its nuclear arsenal which the Khan is very conveniently ignoring and on the other hand increasing pressure on India for signing NPT.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Sep 2009 04:02

Not a nuclear thread, so I will not go into details here. But, first, IF we were to believe this draft, he is not letting anyone go: Pakistan and Israel included. Next IF India were to make her case, he would truly listen. Finally, ToT would precede a CTBT/NPT decision. Not that they would depend on each other in any way.

Besides, there are two things that are a no go from an Indian PoV: "verifiable" and a time limit. This draft is an upgrade on what the Clinton Admin put out.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Sep 2009 07:29


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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Rahul PS » 16 Sep 2009 10:37

Kartik wrote:
Yudhajit wrote:Here’s my view on the Gripen ( based on the discussions so far) . I’ve been lurking around for some time, so guru logs please forgive any bhul chuk.

The main advantages and disadvantages for Gripen (as compared to F16, which is also a single engine fighter), appear to be as follows:

Advantages –

1) Has a unique Swashplate radar that can track targets 100 degrees on either side, with a Tactical Data Link to improve situational awareness
2) Ability to land and take off from ordinary roads (not yet sure about Indian roads though)
3) Shortest turn-around time of 10 mins for undertaking the next sortie
4) Shortest engine replacement time of 1 hr approx.
5) Cheapest among all to operate
6) Willing to provide full ToT

The first few advantages are unique to Gripen and appear to have the potential of being real game changers.

Disadvantages –

1) Gripen has never been in a real life combat situation, unlike the F16 -

But F16s too have mostly seen action only against much weaker adversaries (in terms of training and weapons systems). How many real tough combat '==' type situations has it faced?

2) Gripen is too close to the Tejas LCA (in terms of weight class?) -

Firstly, Tejas is still in development, and may not have some of the unique features that Gripen has. Secondly, the IAF has already taken the decision to go for a foreign product (because Tejas was delayed), and if the Tejas project has to suffer, it will suffer anyway. (Let me make it clear at this point that I fully support indigenous development, and have been following the development of Tejas with great pride)

3) Gripen Comes with no strategic advantage -

Well, it doesn't come with a strategic baggage either (unlike the F16), which could actually be seen as an advantage.

4) Some parts (like the AESA Radar) are still in R&D stage - Only a matter of time.

Overall, I think the advantages of choosing Gripen far outweigh the so called disadvantages.


good post Yudhjit. you pretty much summed up what the Gripen IN's position in the MRCA contest is. let me add a couple of points-

- Saab is, alongwith MiG, in the most vulnerable position amongst all of the candidate companies. All the rest are giants (EADS, LM, Boeing) or athis means that GoI and IAF can drive home the best bargain with either of these companies, both in terms of acquisition costs as well as for costs to incorporate capabilities required as part of a roadmap, until at least 2025 (after which new technologies may emerge that will require to be charted as well).

MiG's record of after sales support is terrible whereas Saab's is at least uptil now, excellent. Saab on its Gripen website, has explicitly stated that its willing to partner India in its 5th generation fighter program, the MCA. with South Korea and Brazil likely not to emerge as nations with whom it could collaborate, India is the only big Air Force with a 5th gen fighter program in the offing.

the only question is whether the IAF will take these factors into account at all, or simply go by the technical and cost criteria it has in the MRCA selection process.


The Saab's willingness to coopt us into its 5th generation fighter program is a non issue since we already have entered into a partnership with the Russians for the same.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Sep 2009 10:44

I think Mig can easily apply political pressure , to get the deal if need be.

Just say good bye to ATV/Akula-2 lease and Brahmos 2 project and thats it , 2 Key strategic program will fall flat on its feet , lets see how AK and Pillai can keep up to their promise then

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 16 Sep 2009 11:25

Rahul PS wrote:The Saab's willingness to coopt us into its 5th generation fighter program is a non issue since we already have entered into a partnership with the Russians for the same.


heard of the MCA ?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 16 Sep 2009 14:02

NRao wrote:
Z-bLuffer wrote:Of course the chances are high (although 'high' is a relative thing), but they are higher in some cases than others. I guess India would have something she doesn't control 100% rather than nothing. Hence the MRCA competition.


I think (and have felt this for some 10+ years now) that India herself is THE problem.

.


NO
The problem is not India

The problem is INDIANS.

Because there are no INDIANS in India

We have Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Maharashtrians, Tamilians, Punjabis, Kashmiris, Manipuris etc etc etc.

BUT WE DO NOT HAVE INDIANS

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Rahul PS » 16 Sep 2009 14:19

Kartik wrote:
Rahul PS wrote:The Saab's willingness to coopt us into its 5th generation fighter program is a non issue since we already have entered into a partnership with the Russians for the same.


heard of the MCA ?


why would india get into another joint development programme with another foreign partner
for a similar fighter( both are supposed to be twin engined and 5th generation ) dividing
its limited resources( both manpower and money ).As of now MCA is an indegenous endeavour,
and along the way it will be hoping to get some benefits out of FGFA.Once we have a partner
they will surely put some restrictions on personnel movement between projects.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby saptarishi » 16 Sep 2009 15:40

it would be interesting to see how many squadrons of each aircrafts are ordered to bring the operational squadron numbers to 45
1.15 su-30mki squadrons,,[230+50 to be ordered]
2.7 MMRCA SQUADRONS[126]
3.7 LCA SQUADRONS [100 mk2 +40mk1]
4.10 pak-fa squadrons [180-200]

that makes it 39 squadrons ,so 6 remains to achieve 45

there are 3 possibilities after this

option 1 .cancel MCA,EXERCISE OPTION OF 50 PERCENT MORE mmrca to get 3 squads+ 3 more pak-fa squadrons

option 2- 6 squadrons of MCA,,,that is very less for an indigenously developed jet

option 3-3 more lca mk2 squadrons AS ORIGINALLY PLANNED + 3 more MMRCA squadrons

we have large number of options,,i think,,with so many options there is no need for MCA,,especially when we have signed for pak-fa and are pledging billions for it,,it will be clever to go for a STEALTHY UCAV, with tvc,aesa,irst and high payload,

look at the major projects like neuron [europe] mig's skat, x-45, taranis, by taking this route we shall be able to fully use the experience gained through LCA

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Bala Vignesh » 16 Sep 2009 19:32

Kersi D wrote:
NO
The problem is not India

The problem is INDIANS.

Because there are no INDIANS in India

We have Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs; Maharashtrians, Tamilians, Punjabis, Kashmiris, Manipuris etc etc etc.

BUT WE DO NOT HAVE INDIANS


Well said sir... That's the heart of all problems... Everyone just thinks of themselves and not of the collective good... Hell most of the people are happy as long as they get their salaries and the cricket team wins the matches...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Bala Vignesh » 16 Sep 2009 19:50

saptarishi wrote:it would be interesting to see how many squadrons of each aircrafts are ordered to bring the operational squadron numbers to 45
1.15 su-30mki squadrons,,[230+50 to be ordered]
2.7 MMRCA SQUADRONS[126]
3.7 LCA SQUADRONS [100 mk2 +40mk1]
4.10 pak-fa squadrons [180-200]

that makes it 39 squadrons ,so 6 remains to achieve 45

there are 3 possibilities after this

option 1 .cancel MCA,EXERCISE OPTION OF 50 PERCENT MORE mmrca to get 3 squads+ 3 more pak-fa squadrons

option 2- 6 squadrons of MCA,,,that is very less for an indigenously developed jet

option 3-3 more lca mk2 squadrons AS ORIGINALLY PLANNED + 3 more MMRCA squadrons

we have large number of options,,i think,,with so many options there is no need for MCA,,especially when we have signed for pak-fa and are pledging billions for it,,it will be clever to go for a STEALTHY UCAV, with tvc,aesa,irst and high payload,

look at the major projects like neuron [europe] mig's skat, x-45, taranis, by taking this route we shall be able to fully use the experience gained through LCA


The idea of designing a UCAV is surely very tempting but before we attempt something so complicated we must hone our skills in all depts involved... so i guess working on another manned project should help us...
that's just my humble opinion...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 16 Sep 2009 20:17

I would restate an old understanding.. self reliance is not about producing something from scratch pure 100% of the materials. Of course, that is the best to have.

What is required to have defined by strategic needs is important.. that no external soul or country has the controls to decide, and push the button on supplies and materials, eventually hitting defence logistics or for that matter has remote controls on the systems and supplies.

so, if LCA has 50% khan products, but we have total control on the logistics, then it should be still fine.. strategic speak.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gagan » 16 Sep 2009 20:18

This is a skill which has to be developed. It is fairly stand alone, provided you have the basic skills to design an aircraft.
DRDO is in with the MALE UAVs, and armed UCAV is only the next step up the ladder.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby vishwakarmaa » 16 Sep 2009 20:52

NRao wrote:The ONLY other option is to make it yourself - something India has not been good at - even with a tremendous amount of brain power that the country generates.


That's a careless way to put it. Who said we are not good at making things ourselves? Indian nuclear programme and supercomputers were not home-made, but imported?

One needs patience and time to nurture R&D. Reckless reactions always lead to reckless conclusions. It took USA 40 years to mature single crystal blade technology, after it first appeared in theory.

Problem with Cryogenic engine(Kaveri) project is not that we can't make it but we didn't take right managerial approaches towards it. Kaveri was a project management failure, not a technological failure. Indian managers failed but technocrats won. That's why Kaveri is still alive.

Still today, funding given to domestic R&D is pitty, compared to weapon imports. We need more serious approach on this issue. We are in a vicious circle of weapon imports. First the circle ran with Russians, now a new circle is being run with West. Problem is not western sanctions, problem is penny salaries paid to Indian scientists and bureaucracy in domestic R&D projects.

One has to break this circle. If we keep investing in foreign arms, there is no end to it. Even, more than 'funding', the problem is with management of DRDO, which noone spends enough time on.

A completely wrong notion of incapability of Indian scientists, being built up in public, to support arms imports. It was the case with Russian arms imports, same is now being done to support western arms imports. A complete misuse of defense funding. Add corrupt armed force top brass to it, who loves elite parties these days more than working on ground with R&D teams.
Last edited by vishwakarmaa on 16 Sep 2009 21:12, edited 1 time in total.

vishwakarmaa
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby vishwakarmaa » 16 Sep 2009 21:07

Kersi D wrote:NO
The problem is not India

The problem is INDIANS.

Because there are no INDIANS in India

We have Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Maharashtrians, Tamilians, Punjabis, Kashmiris, Manipuris etc etc etc.

BUT WE DO NOT HAVE INDIANS


Well said. Add NRI's to the list, who can't stop west-aping and see everything in India through a western prism.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 16 Sep 2009 21:28

vishwakarmaa wrote:...
Problem with Cryogenic engine(Kaveri) project is not that we can't make it but we didn't take right managerial approaches towards it. Kaveri was a project management failure, not a technological failure. Indian managers failed but technocrats won. That's why Kaveri is still alive.
...

Please research this some more. The cryogenic engine is an ISRO undertaking for a rocket engine that operates in the vacuum of space. It is not related to the Kaveri.

The rest of your post is valid but it is only one opinion - one that actually has been echoed many times. The "problem" is that the scientists are Indians and so are the bureaucrats. We didn't import the bureaucrats from some other country. If the bureaucrats aren't willing to fund the scientists adequately then it is a problem for Indians as a whole.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Katare » 16 Sep 2009 21:46

It has become a free for all, say what you want thread :rotfl:

May be we need to separate "political/strategic discussion" from "news and tech discussion" in a separate thread! It's unbearable and hard to read some of the (political preference) comments again and again. It is one of the biggest arms import deal that India is going to sign that we'll have to live with for next three decades. We need to have a serious discussion on merits of different options on table. We have already discussed to death political/sanctions part of it.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby AmitR » 16 Sep 2009 22:18

That's because nobody really knows what is it that the IAF actually needs and has defined in it specs for MRCA. There is no official and publicly available document that tells what criterion the MRCA will be judged and what are the specific metrics that are needed. Add to that the political , corruption and strategic angle to this deal and we know what a mess we are talking about. I have found threads on the web that go back a good 5-6 years that were discussing MRCA. And here we are in 2009 beating the same dead horse. It's like the story of 10 blind men trying to describe what an elephant looks like.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 16 Sep 2009 22:28

Rahul PS wrote:why would india get into another joint development programme with another foreign partner
for a similar fighter( both are supposed to be twin engined and 5th generation ) dividing
its limited resources( both manpower and money ).As of now MCA is an indegenous endeavour,
and along the way it will be hoping to get some benefits out of FGFA.Once we have a partner
they will surely put some restrictions on personnel movement between projects.


listen to yourself- you're presenting arguments that contradict your line of thought-if India has limited resources of both money and manpower then IT MAKES SENSE TO COLLABORATE for the MCA, and divide up the funds for spending on its development as well as design and development activities, so as not to stretch itself to breaking point and to divide the program risk and to also gain another launch customer for the MCA- or else simply drop the idea of developing it.

There is no way that the IAF is going to back the MCA to the hilt, not until the LCA gains their confidence. and even after that, for a true 5th generation fighter, it will require very high end technologies, that HAL, ADA and DRDO do not possess as yet.

IMO, it makes sense to gain a partner in the Western world, so as to be able to promote MCA sales to non-Russian type operators, qualify western weapons on the MCA, and maintain a diversified base for the IAF for decades to come. maybe it can be promoted as an alternative to the F-35. Saab has several decades of aerospace knowledge and experience, but lacks a large home support and cannot afford a 5th generation fighter program on its own. for them, the MCA will keep them alive in the fighter export market.

and having a private partner will bring in better program management, and push along timelines that public sector enterprises seem to not really care about. It will also be necessary to rope in an engine maker into the program, because GTRE cannot deliver a 5th generation engine program on time, for sure and I'm not sure if the IAF would be keen on the Kaveri-M-88 hybrid for the MCA..I guess it depends on the IAF's ASQRs (if they've even laid it out).

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ramana » 16 Sep 2009 22:30

Its only six blindmen not ten.

Viswhakarma its not the NRIs who want to ape the West but RNIs. Most NRIs pine for the strong India of their dreams. While the RNIs want India to be the West they cant go to.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 16 Sep 2009 23:13

That's a careless way to put it. Who said we are not good at making things ourselves? Indian nuclear programme and supercomputers were not home-made, but imported?


Hmmmm................

That argument (about SC and nuclear program and I would like to add ISRO) were made more than 10 years ago on BR!! I made them too. Not too much to show for them today.

However, even acknowledging that would mean that the nation has grown disproportionately - like one hand growing 10 times the size of the other, where the larger one is normal growth.

One needs patience and time to nurture R&D. Reckless reactions always lead to reckless conclusions. It took USA 40 years to mature single crystal blade technology, after it first appeared in theory.


True.

Wake me up in 40 years.

BTW, IIRC, Russia offered this particular tech to India along with the MKI. Guess what ................ reports suggest that 'India' decided to R&D it out and wait for 40 years.

Problem with Cryogenic engine(Kaveri) project is not that we can't make it but we didn't take right managerial approaches towards it. Kaveri was a project management failure, not a technological failure. Indian managers failed but technocrats won. That's why Kaveri is still alive.


Cryo and Kaveri? Am I missing something?

On failure of project management - glad you concur. Because, that very argument was made by a very famous person in the LCA program - in late 80s to early 90s. And, no body took him seriously. There is a need to reboot, thanks for your support. All you have stated is that THAT problem has existed fro 20 years!!!!!! Better than 40 I guess.

Still today, funding given to domestic R&D is pitty, compared to weapon imports. We need more serious approach on this issue. We are in a vicious circle of weapon imports. First the circle ran with Russians, now a new circle is being run with West. Problem is not western sanctions, problem is penny salaries paid to Indian scientists and bureaucracy in domestic R&D projects.


Well ................. that topic too have been discussed to death - since late 90s on BR.

Today, IMHO, it is rather late for infusion of funds into R&D in India (and, I hope I am wrong). For one the technologies in most other countries has progressed so far and at such high speeds that I am not too sure even with ToT India can catch up. Some MRCA vendors have openly stated that India is incapable of absorbing some techs for which complete ToT is possible.

Next, Indian R&D has been hobbled by insincerity - this too was brought up in late 80s/early 90s!!!!

One has to break this circle. If we keep investing in foreign arms, there is no end to it. Even, more than 'funding', the problem is with management of DRDO, which noone spends enough time on.


I do not think that is the case. Even the US relies on outside vendors - for economic reasons. IMHO, India should aim for a segment of the market - which is doable (either through acquisition via ToT or R&D). But, to think India should reinvent the wheel would be too expensive and really not worth it.

A completely wrong notion of incapability of Indian scientists, being built up in public, to support arms imports. It was the case with Russian arms imports, same is now being done to support western arms imports. A complete misuse of defense funding. Add corrupt armed force top brass to it, who loves elite parties these days more than working on ground with R&D teams.


Indian culture too. When we do things we really get them done. But for the most part we do not do things. Forget big things, even small things - keep streets clean - we are totally incapable from 'get it done' PoV.

Kersi D,

Yup. Crabbing is the term. Suspect you know the joke behind it - a 15/20 year old joke.

So, this problem is also about 20 years old!!!!! Actually 60.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby RavinM » 17 Sep 2009 04:55

vishwakarmaa wrote:
Kersi D wrote:


Well said. Add NRI's to the list, who can't stop west-aping and see everything in India through a western prism.


This guy's a bum, why are u against NRI's, after all NRI's are as patriotic as you are!! I think you must stop this bikerring before it gets ugly here, and Mods put their policing cap on! :((

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 17 Sep 2009 07:06

This guy's a bum, why are u against NRI's, after all NRI's are as patriotic as you are!! I think you must stop this bikerring before it gets ugly here, and Mods put their policing cap on!


Ignore him RavinM he has anti-western agenda and considers NRIs as part of some conspiracy. Just look at his posts in the Nuke's thread and you will realize that he is a conspiracy theorist. Just ignore. 8)

Saying that Lockheed is really going for it now Ge is offering F 16 IN engine parts to be sourced from India

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ne/370314/

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jaison » 17 Sep 2009 15:52

Guys out here pls stick to the MRCA topic and lets have some healthy discussion.. PLEASE..


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