MRCA News and Discussion

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PratikDas
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

abhi.enggr wrote:and again have anyone of you considered the kind of support we have got from russaia for our indigeneous INS ARIHANT,brahmos,t-90,su-30 mki,ins kochin,PAK FA
true they have been sluggish with supplies but at least there is one source we can trust
iam not advocating for mig-35
but give them a chance
i believe rafale is the best choice followed by typhoon-mig 35-gripen-f-18-f-16
Abhi, you and I find out how the US has betrayed India in the past from the media. Don't you think the Indian government only knows all too well the gory details on exactly how the US has betrayed India in the past? Then, inspite of knowing all the details, India sent the RFP to Boeing and Lockheed Martin. Why do you think India did that? Surely, the Indian government must think that they can prepare a contract which gets us what we need regardless of what goes on in the US Congress and White House?

For what its worth, I didn't vote for a US fighter.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by RameshC »

well aim-120 C-7, http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html

aim-120D 50% range increase over aim-120C-7, C-5 has ranges over 105km. the Amraam you mentioned are the a/b versions. who gives a flying damn if the Aim-120D has been tested on the F-16 or not, the Aim-120D is slated for induction on all USAF frontline fighters and full induction is next year so if it hasnt been tested yet, it will. The so called Russian ramjet has never been tested matter of fact the basic Zhuk AE has just begun testing, which by the way is Russian's first AESA, they are taking baby steps. no matter what you say the Russian radar now only has a max detection range of 130 km against 3m2 rcs and an mtbf of 600hrs, read if you can, it can track 30 targets, the SH qualifies as an awacs and can command over 36 aircraft in battle, zhuk AE spots a destroyer at 200km, which is simply not impressive, the apg-73 the old hornet radar does a better job than that sure the Zhuk AE is an active array and will be more accurate than the old and passive apg-73 but it dont matter because the apg-79 is 5 times more accurate.
the apg-79 has a mtbf of over 1250 hrs, its array itself has a mtbf of 15000hrs, the zhuk AE sits at less than half that, thats the difference between 1st gen and 4th gen AESA.

ATFLIR is sort of the OLS of the SH and not its primary IRST, its primary IRST which is now on a centreline fuel tank will be placed in the nose cone once testing is completed. LM is the company building it and has developed a similar one like that on the f-22 which by the way is world's most advanced airborne IRST.

the Mig's OLS

New OLS is intelligence system of technical vision to work in realtime of fast combat environment. In air combat complex allows:
- detect not-afterburning target on the 45km range and more;
- identify this target on 8-10km range;
- estimate aerial target range up to 15 km.

For the ground targets complex allows:
- tank effective detection range up to 15 km, aircraft carrier - 60-80 km;
- identify the tank type on the 8-10 km, aircraft carrier type - 40-60 km;
- estimate ground target range up to 20 km.

The ATFLIR is EO/IR targetting pod even when the pod hangs externally the Sh's rcs fully loaded is still around 1m2 and has one of the lowest rcs among all contenders. The pod also allows from distributive targeting something the OLS doesnt do. SH is the mother of all net work centric aircraft. fact is in a battle field only a single SH needs to turn on its radars and guide the rest of the fleet without having to turn on their radars to take on the enemy, due to its ability to share, it gives an AESA pic to all in the battle field. the war of the future will need such net work centric approaches, ruskis have trouble spelling net work centric.

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/products/atflir/
http://www.aviapedia.com/video/new-mig-35-ols-video
http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getA ... emID=16843

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilities/pr ... 050831.pdf

http://img291.imageshack.us/img291/4484/zhukaemj2.jpg

The apg-79 is an AESA and the bars is a PESA the ground mapping abilities of the SH far exceed any Russian radar available now or later. MKI's radar is among the best PESA in the world, no doubt, but MKI doesnt have distributive targeting, its EW suite is no match to the SH, Rafale or even EFs or the f-16. but this aint about the MKI, this is about the mig and in its current stage it is pathetic and is not even worth considering for the mrca. the mig is not a multirole aircraft no matter how much the Ruskia make us believe it is, it neither has the payload flexibility even of the Gripen, lets not even talk about comparing it to ef, rafale , Sv or SH. they are far ahead in avionics maturity and out match any russian counter part. sure the MKI is gr8 but the weapons aren't reliable enough, the kh-31 a/p our primary anti radiation missiles are malfunctioning, our r-77s, -27s are of bad quality, what use a gr8 aircraft when the weapons it deploys are useless. many of these missiles were ordered after kargil. now Russia is no where compared to the netcentric abilties of the SH, live tareting info from UAVS can be used by the SH to drop a neat missile or bomb with precision. last i checked Russia was buying UAVS from Issy.during kargil we had russian lgbs yet we used Paveways and i wonder why. Russian PGMS are years behind and all this will become very apparent when IAF puts this patched up mig to the test. you talk about every 20 years tech change, well its true for russia but the fact that the apg-79 is currently in its v-3 version and v-4 version is coming out soon shows that tech change is around 7 years in the US. by the time those advanced version of Ruskia AESAs come out the US would already reached 5 or 6 gen AESA, they are not just waiting not doing anything, matter of fact the RACR, SABR are better than the apg-79 and apg-80 and it took the US very little time to develope them. Russia neither has the cash or churn rates within its industry no matter how effective it is.

the mig cant even match the f-16s payload flexibility which on any given day can drop or launch almost every weapon in EU/Issy and US inventory.

the SH's maturity and off the shelf abilties is what impresses me, the mig could probably do all that but only after over 7-8 years of mass customization and tinkering with parts coming from across the EU. if indeed US gives us ability to mass customize the SH will reach a whole new level in the next 5 years. the SH still carries more A2A missiles than the mig or mki, so the one with the more missiles has more chances at victory, i hope you dont think the SH pilot will not do anything having so many missiles on his wing in afull load it can carry 12 Aim-120s and 2 WVRs. In BVR engagements agility doesnt matter, knowing the combat kill record of the aim-120 A/B, i am sure the aim-120 C-7 or D are much deadlier than before and a single shot should ensure a kill against a large rcs target like mig or su-27 easily. besides the QF-4 drone has the ECM etc for accurate replication of possible threat being an unmanned F-4 it too is put through evasive manuevers once the test missile is launched in order to further replicate fighters. what sets it apart is also combat proven effectiveness. i am sure IAF will certanly go for combat proven aircraft like Rafale, SH than the patched up mig. the fact is many of these mig-35 avionics can be put on the mig-29 smt upgrade like the zhuk AE radar, new ols, new rwrs and ew suite because the upgrade will only be complete by 2013, the engines with tvc can be used as well. sure it would have costed more but hey. the russians should have bid with the su-35 which on any given day holds more promise of abilties than the mig.

Russia has helped us yes, by not giving full tot of brahmos, by giving us t-90s that dont fire properly, club s missiles that dont fire from our subs, carriers that dont come on time, or migs that killed over 200 of our pilots, BVR and anti radiation missiles that malfunction, its a trusty supplier but the quality of the supplies are shady. US is shady too but thats the problem with democracies, there will always be people in our country who think we need to be more aggresive with pak while others say we have to be patient, same goes in the US as well, some say PAk is terror central while others say its just a victim of radicalization while some others say Pak is the reason for all the problems in theworld. just like during iraq war more 50% of US was for war and 50% against it, shows the problem, democracy is mix of idealogies and perceptions which is why there will always be people who say dont trust US while many others say no harm in trusting at least once. many say their sudden interest in India is a conspriracy while some say its genuine because both are democracies, both have much to share and much to learn from eachother, in the end its the strength of those voices that will dtermine if US wins or not. i personally dont care if Us wins or not as long as Russia doesnt, i for one am fed up of us goin to Russia evertime we need to buy something, besides it wont come on time, so yeah go EF, Rafale even gripen dont care as long as the mig is out.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by abhi.enggr »

:lol:
PratikDas wrote:
abhi.enggr wrote:For what its worth, I didn't vote for a US fighter.
hi pratik thanks man again u have got a good reply....
dear not bragging but i have got my source from inside rather than outside.( iam not part of any big wig team just a poor gov personnel)
regarding the gov. i don't know but since the no objection of usa for israel having defence deals with india we feel that us is reliable.
foreign office babus tell a different story about even the nuclear deal how the us congress went overboard to call it off .
israel got its way because of their own pressure and when we get down to serious buisness us in definitely not reliable.
try find something on virtually anything.
they invite us to participate in joint exercises to get a sniff on SU-30 MKI and mig-29 ovt (believe me it is the only reason).
we just have this syndrome of appeasing us.
even if we decide to get those planes from us we should be teasing the us on getting f-35 as a part of deal.
u know us still believe we are not to be trusted in comparision with pakistan......!
also i favour the rafale most
they have got the best deal
full tot with software codes also
and dassault is the consulting partner in LCA also.
think with rafale engine and software codes we can do wonders with LCA alo.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by abhi.enggr »

RameshC wrote:well aim-120 C-7, http://www.designation-systems.net/dusrm/m-120.html
i personally dont care if Us wins or not as long as Russia doesnt, i for one am fed up of us goin to Russia evertime we need to buy something, besides it wont come on time, so yeah go EF, Rafale even gripen dont care as long as the mig is out.
even iam fed up with them but we will have to look at other alternatives also before dumping them.
i fully agree their plane is not even in the same league as others.
i vouch for the rafale as it is one aircraft whoich can de used for navy and aorforce both woth minimum modifications.
again mentioning the fact that they are giving full decoded software codes ready for reprogramming and full transfer which is one advantage no other deal can beat.
this software codes can be used for LCA as well.
besides rafale engine in LCA will be a potent weapon.
also rafale is more compatible with israel avionics and digital upgrades and packages then any other plane.
i also believe that if we go for f-18 we should be hardballed about getting f-35 as a future option since after 2014 f-35 will be the most advanced one replacing f-16 and f-18
why not get it when we are having the biggest deal in the world.
and iam not vouching for russia but then if we are buying mig-35 then the message should me clear to russia.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by abhi.enggr »

i am voting in favour of rafale or eurofighter .
please guys considering my ignorance in tech matters comment on my choice and elaborate
will help me in big ways
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by abhi.enggr »

Jaison wrote:Hi guys.. here is my take of the whole Mrca deal
(Any suggestions , corrections and healthy discussion is always welcome :) )
hi jaison u summed up virtually everything...
just to add a bit more
rafale has offered us the software codes as well and other than f-18 it is the only a/c having a proven naval version.
i would vote for rafale.
i have learnt that the software codes transferred are much helpfull.
besides rafale is the most effective in precision guided systems.......
please add up on rafale if you can......
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by RameshC »

well like i said EF, Rafale, SH are ideal...particularly SH or Rafale, both very capable in different ways. after seeing it last weekend at the Tiger meet i am all but praises for the Rafale, its sexy beyond words, its fast, agile and its contruction looks very impressive, smooth and incredibly fierce. Its turn rates, climb rates are gr8, its range, payload abilties are also top notch and i wont be any disappointed or surpriced if IAF goes for it unless the Amrikis take it home offering full tot and source code customization. the amrikis never give source codes however they do allow for adding of threats to their existing libraries like they do with Issy. now if rafale gets chosen i am sure lots of US weapons will be acquired because EU made weapons are almost 2 -3 times more expensive and hence even primary operators of the Rafale use lots of US made primary PGMs and weapons to keep operationla costs low. USN wants to operate the f-18SH till 2040 and hence the f-35 wont replace it but rather join it. many new SHs are still being delivered and the oldest SH is now at 3800 hrs in USN service it still has over 5000 hrs of life left after MLU which should occur after 6000hrs. besides the Aussies have it now too which will make sure the SH is upgraded till 2040.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

i simply don't understand why is it that all people on this blog are underestimating russian planes.
is SU-30 MKI a bad plane.
and if we are not ready for mig-35
what is wrong with rafale or eurofighter which are better than us planes...........
Perhaps you should visit some old threadS on MRCA (the MRCA thread has been there sine early 2000 or so). All these topics have been re-hashed about twice a year (each year there is something new that comes and keeps the threda going).

However, very, very briefly:

MKI: It was considered a bad idea when the IAF mooted the idea. Even after they landed in India they were not considered to be as good as they are today. And, I would expect that the MKI would be held higher in the future. The main reason being that the growth of this plane is pushed by the IAF. And, it has the proper funds AND support that a project like this needs. The MKI is a Russian plane, but an Indian idea.

MiG-35: Since MiG has stated that they will NOT be able to provide the 18 they need to provide (IF selected) by about 2014, it was my assumption that the Russians are not geared up for this plane. The RFP requires these 18 to be in India by 2012. So, I (still) think that the problem is with their supply chain - it is just not there, for if it was there they would not have a problem building 18 by 2012

Rafale/EF: Great planes, but they lag behind the US in the techs they promise to deliver. Rafale AESA will not be ready until 2012, EF also has similar issues (check out previous threads - plenty of discussion there). Also, there is an issue with funding that these planes get. Just that the Raf/EF, technology wise, do not seem to be a good fit for the IAF - the IAF MAY have to fund techs that they will not otherwise deem fund-able. Raf AESA for instance.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Kailash »

Isnt the radar range (beyond 2-300 km) a function altitude and earth's curvature, topography (as much as bad weather and AESA/PESA, number of T/R modules etc)??

I tried to google a bit - found this.
My questions are
- how does the sustained high altitude flights of these contenders compare, with reasonable combat load?
- how does the maturity (aka AESA/PESA generations) affect the accuracy of beyond the horizon scans?

Please point me to relevant sources.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by RameshC »

Race is on for India MMRCA

Flight trials for India’s biggest defense procurement program, the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA), are underway. India will acquire 126 aircraft—86 single-seat and 40 twin-seat configurations.

The air force requirement for the MMRCA is based on a maximum all-up weight of 14,000-30,000 kg. (31,000-66,000 lb.). India plans to procure 18 aircraft in flyaway condition and produce 106 locally under license through technology transfer. Delivery starts within 36 months of contract signing and will be completed 48 months later.

The contenders are the Boeing F/A-18, Lockheed Martin F‑16IN, MiG-35, Dassault Aviation Rafale, Eurofighter Typhoon and Saab Gripen NG (New Generation).

Flight trials will be held in Bengaluru (Bangalore) for humidity and Jaisalmer in the Rajasthan desert for heat. Trials in the Leh district of Ladakh will be the most challenging. “It will be a pure performance issue at 3,500 meters (11,483 ft.) [above sea level] and 50C (122F) in the summer,” says a vendor.

“Nobody can take off in Leh with a full weapons load, even with powerful engines,” adds a defense analyst.

The request for proposals (RFP) states the aircraft should be able to take off with a full internal fuel load and significant external load from a runway of 3,300 meters, in air-defense and strike configurations.

Vendors are not discussing the weapons their planes will carry during flight trials. Weapon trials will be held in the respective countries, most likely between November and January, and completed in late April when the bids are opened.

Initial weapons to be delivered with the flyaway aircraft include active beyond-visual-range air-to-air missiles, antiship missiles with 100-km. (62-mi.) range, air-to-ground and medium-range missiles (with a range of more than 200 km.), and standoff precision-guided munitions (40-km. range).

The RFP requires that aircraft, components and accessories be of the latest manufacture and conform to the latest production standards.

A game-changer could be the requirement for multimode active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar with a wide band and “adequate growth potential.” Raytheon’s APG-79 AESA radar for the F/A-18 conforms to the requirement, as does Northrop Grumman’s APG-80 for the Block 60 F-16s in the United Arab Emirates’ fleet.

Gripen will fly with its AESA radar during trials. Saab and Selex Galileo will jointly develop an AESA radar for the Gripen NG. The system will be based on Selex Galileo’s Vixen AESA radar and use components from the Gripen’s PS-05/A and other programs from both companies.

Eurofighter insists the range of mechanically scanned (M‑Scan) Selex Captor radar rivals any AESA. “There are benefits in maintenance because it has no moving parts,” says an official.

The Captor electronically scanned array radar is a research and development effort among Germany, Italy, Spain and the U.K. A prototype called Caesar was flown on a Typhoon developmental aircraft in 2007.

The final configuration of the MiG-35’s onboard equipment is not clear. The MiG-35 Fulcrum-F, a stripped-down version of the MiG-29M OVT, might use the Zhuk-AE (see p. 8), Bars-29 or Elta Systems’ EL/M-2052 radars.

Thales, meanwhile, has a contract to develop the second-generation RBE2 AESA radar for the Rafale from the French defense procurement agency. The transition to active electronic scanning technology, which in the case of the RBE2 involves transmit-and-receive technologies only, will provide new capabilities and enhance performance, while improving reliability and reducing maintenance costs, says Dassault. The AESA antenna will increase the RBE2’s range and angular coverage and make the radar more reliable. “The RBE2 on the Rafale F3 will offer high-resolution ground-mapping modes,” says Thales.

Dassault will complete integration of the radar with the Rafale in 2011, in time for delivery should Dassault win all or part of the MMRCA order.

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... dline=Race is on for India MMRCA&channel=defense
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

RameshC,

The next please place what you are quoting in quotes (there is a button for that). Your last post is actually from AWST, but it appears as though it is yours because 1) you did not place it in quotes, and 2) you placed the URL at the end.

Thx.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

Rahul PS wrote:First generation fourth generation ?
I saw that in some other blogs as well.
U.S took the lead in ASEA, Russians tried to catch up with them and they created their first generation radar.When you follow somebody else's footsteps it is not necessary that you should follow the same growth path.In that case you tend to hope some technology levels, sinve you by now have some idea what that thing really is.
Please compare Zhuk-AE Vs APG-79.Zhuk AE has two variants FGA 29 and FGA 35.
575MM(FGA 29),700mm(FGA 35)Vs 700mm( APG 79)
680TR(FGA 29),1088TR(FGA 35) Vs 1100 TR(APG 79)
But yes they are not as proven in their capabilities as the APG 79.
there will be no FGA35 only FGA29 with increased range is offered.

when apg80 was delivered to UAE it wasn't proven either and software work still needed to be done on radar even after delivery of F16.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by rajeshks »

OK Guys.. Relax for a moment..

Suppose you are going for a cross country car race across india, through the vilages and jungles... Which one is your favorite?

Cadillac/Lincoln Car
BMW X7 SUV
Jaguar/Bently/RR
Suzuki SX4
Mahindra Scorpio

Which one will help you to win? atleast which one will give you the minimum gurantee that you will be able to complete the race...

May not be related to MMRCA or is it related?
Once again my apologies for the junk...
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

NRao wrote: MKI: It was considered a bad idea when the IAF mooted the idea. Even after they landed in India they were not considered to be as good as they are today. And, I would expect that the MKI would be held higher in the future. The main reason being that the growth of this plane is pushed by the IAF. And, it has the proper funds AND support that a project like this needs. The MKI is a Russian plane, but an Indian idea.

MiG-35: Since MiG has stated that they will NOT be able to provide the 18 they need to provide (IF selected) by about 2014, it was my assumption that the Russians are not geared up for this plane. The RFP requires these 18 to be in India by 2012. So, I (still) think that the problem is with their supply chain - it is just not there, for if it was there they would not have a problem building 18 by 2012
when MKi landed in india BARS radar had only air to air modes.
PHASE 2 MKI got air to ground modes with all air to ground standoff missiles
PHASE 3 got simultaneous air and ground search with wide angle scanning

no system is fully functional just after it is designed,productionized for the first time and one has to use the system for some time to bring it to full potential for which the system is designed and in 2003 BARS radar was just out of factory product and at that time it had only air to air modes

same is true for apg80,apg77 and kopyo :)

and for mig35 production most probably they will be produced at the same place where mig29k are being produced and where the 30 more mig29k with aesa radars will be produced for navy

the configuration of naval mig29k with AESA radar will be similar to that of mig35 except that mig35 will have 2 more hardpoints with increased life and payload :D

so if definite mig29k with AESA radar is there in this case there should no problem in productionizing 18 mig35s
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by nikhil_p »

rajeshks wrote:OK Guys.. Relax for a moment..

Suppose you are going for a cross country car race across india, through the vilages and jungles... Which one is your favorite?

Cadillac/Lincoln Car
BMW X7 SUV
Jaguar/Bently/RR
Suzuki SX4
Mahindra Scorpio

Which one will help you to win? atleast which one will give you the minimum gurantee that you will be able to complete the race...

May not be related to MMRCA or is it related?
Once again my apologies for the junk...
Neither...I will prefer a TATA Safari!
BTW...post such questions in the Newbie thread( refer the subject) ...lest you get hallalled by the Muezzorators...
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

when MKi landed in india BARS radar had only air to air modes.
PHASE 2 MKI got air to ground modes with all air to ground standoff missiles
PHASE 3 got simultaneous air and ground search with wide angle scanning

no system is fully functional just after it is designed,productionized for the first time
That is not the point I was making WRT the MKI, I will drop it since this is not the thread for it - although your point is very, very valid.

However, in which case the MiG-35, EF, Gripen and Rafale are so far behind WRT "productionized" F-16 and F-18 that why even think about them?
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by rajeshks »

Oh .. Please don’t ban me..

What i was trying to say is the MMRCA machine should not complain under indian conditions... I really feel that MMRCA machine is mostly meant for our eastern theatre.. How many of this machines can fly above the himalayas and come home safely.. under normal conditions they will make it home but consider the scenario where the machine is hit and damaged.. Will it be able to land and then air borne after min repair from a forward base, say from DBO. That will introduce a lot of questions... shape of air intake, T/W ratio, engine performance at 15000 ft, can we move man and machinery to that that base for repair(after all we can't throw away a 50-80 mil $ plane), how many experienced technicians are available for that family of aircrafts etc etc...

I agree that we need something to throw at chinese that they haven't seen.. in that case we can ignore Mig35 but there are a lot of other considerations.. Planes optimized for carrier operations may find it difficult to deal with hilly terrain... Also while talking about the capabilities of the radar, are we considering the performance in a hilly terrain where it is comparatively easy to break radar lock..
Last edited by rajeshks on 22 Sep 2009 19:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

and for mig35 production most probably they will be produced at the same place where mig29k are being produced and where the 30 more mig29k with aesa radars will be produced for navy

the configuration of naval mig29k with AESA radar will be similar to that of mig35 except that mig35 will have 2 more hardpoints with increased life and payload :D

so if definite mig29k with AESA radar is there in this case there should no problem in productionizing 18 mig35s
What Mr. MiG states trumps what either you or me think.

MiG has stated that they cannot start work on the MRCA planes until 2013 - assuming they are selected.

I have to assume that they made up their mindS knowing what you know.

(Besides, my understanding was the MiG-35 is quite different than the MiG-29. IF true, then we cannot expect a quick shift to making MiG-35s on a 29 line. It should take some time to ramp up. And, I think their estimates of 2013 is about right.)
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by rajeshks »

Do you think that 2013 can not be changed ?
What Mig said is from a company perspective but do remember that Medvedev and Putin personally want to improve the defece relations with india. If there is a push from such a level i am sure dates will be advanced.. afterall the RFP states that the first plane should be deliverd within 36 months after signing the deal.. No one knows when we are going to decide and sign the deal.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Philip »

Both AWST and Flight,apart from other Russian sources, have stated in their recent issues that the Russians are going to buy large quantities of MIG-35s as well as the 48+ SU-35s ordered recently.The MIG-29K with 3-D TVC,similar to what the In is getting,is also being seriously considerd for the Russian navy for its carrier,the Kuznetsov,as well as on future carriers (perhaps upto 6) which are in the design pipeline for the RN.The MIG-35 is going to be produced well into the next decade say the various sources,as it is a very cost-effective fighter and a good choice for forces that earlier operated MIG-29s.The MIG-35 is a vastly different aircraft from the MIG-29 and the recent offer of full TOT for the new very capable Russian AESA radars indicates what the aircraft is capable of.

The only question is that the new centralised United Aircraft Corp. of Russia,which has amalganmated all the major aircraft manufacturers into one entity,want to shift MIG aircraft production from their current facility,which will entail large amounts of capital in setting up the new facilities.This will have a definite increase in the cost which will affect its chances in the deal.I feel that if the evaluation is on schedule,Russia will not announce any shifting of its MIG production facility until after the Indian decision has been made.In any case extra MIG-29K production at the current location will be in full swing for India,with about 40+ being the number we are likely to acquire,especially as our Sea Harrier numbers are dwindling with every crash.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by nikhil_p »

^^^^^^
@Rajesh...we are talking about manufacturing a full size fighter aircraft...The tooling itself will take anything between 12-24 months (depending upon A LOT of factors)...yes 2013 can be changed...to early 2014...and then accelarated production to make up for the backlog of orders.
rajeshks wrote:Oh .. Please don’t ban me..

What i was trying to say is the MMRCA machine should not complain under indian conditions... I really feel that MMRCA machine is mostly meant for our eastern theatre.. How many of this machines can fly above the himalayas and come home safely.. under normal conditions they will make it home but consider the scenario where the machine is hit and damaged.. Will it be able to land and then air borne after min repair from a forward base, say from DBO. That will introduce a lot of questions... shape of air intake, T/W ratio, engine performance at 15000 ft, can we move man and machinery to that that base for repair(after all we can't throw away a 50-80 mil $ plane), how many experienced technicians are available for that family of aircrafts etc etc...

I agree that we need something to throw at chinese that they haven't seen.. in that case we can ignore Mig35 but there are a lot of other considerations.. Planes optimized for carrier operations may find it difficult to deal with hilly terrain... Also while talking about the capabilities of the radar, are we considering the performance in a hilly terrain where it is comparatively easy to break radar lock..
Any Radar, however powerful still depends upon LOS. The bigger problem is Clutter due to reflections off the land and clarity in this situation depends a lot on the back end processor of the radar.
Having said that IRST can give the radar that edge...AFAIK we could always integrate the IRST on the MIG's, as we have already operationalised it in the SU series.
The trials are held at various different areas, during multiple seasons from the Hot and humid south, to the hot and western border to the hilly north. The evaluation is not a car test drive.
About your line...planes optimised for carrier ops will find it difficult to fly in the hills...Please explain your L logic...
Also, another suggestion. Please...please...Please...Lurk around for some time..read old posts...even Archives before you post...this will help.
Last edited by nikhil_p on 22 Sep 2009 20:12, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Surya »

Both AWST and Flight,apart from other Russian sources, have stated in their recent issues that the Russians are going to buy large quantities of MIG-35s as well as the 48+ SU-35s ordered recently.The MIG-29K with 3-D TVC,similar to what the In is getting,is also being seriously considerd for the Russian navy for its carrier,the Kuznetsov,as well as on future carriers (perhaps upto 6) which are in the design pipeline for the RN
ANything can be said to sell vaporware

Where are the russians coming up with the money?? - Presently the supply chain is turning out one off pieces of equipment for the Mig 35 and then hands are being stretched out for building more.


ANd what is LARGE orders?


First let them order - then we will see.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

NRao wrote:What Mr. MiG states trumps what either you or me think.

MiG has stated that they cannot start work on the MRCA planes until 2013 - assuming they are selected.

I have to assume that they made up their mindS knowing what you know.

(Besides, my understanding was the MiG-35 is quite different than the MiG-29. IF true, then we cannot expect a quick shift to making MiG-35s on a 29 line. It should take some time to ramp up. And, I think their estimates of 2013 is about right.)
mig35 is closer to mig29k thats why i mentioned mig29k production line which is totally new,there is no mig29 production line running anymore so from where the idea of mig29 production line to be came in your mind :?:

only mig29k production line which will produce 30 additional mig29k,not to mention why russia will spend money to create new production line for only 18 mig35 when they can use the mig29k production line for this purpose :)
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by rajeshks »

Nikhil, Thanks for your reply...
@Rajesh...we are talking about manufacturing a full size fighter aircraft...The tooling itself will take anything between 12-24 months (depending upon A LOT of factors)...yes 2013 can be changed...to early 2014...and then accelarated production to make up for the backlog of orders.

Please see the post from Philip. He is talking about reusing the Mig 29K production lines.. almost everyone here was talking about of ZERO orders for Mig 35, in that case from where is this backlog coming?? As per Philip's post russia may order Mig 35 which is a welcome move. More importantly we should not forget that the russian president or PM can decide to reuse the same production line and give priority to indian order. if russians are really interested they will be able to advace the date.
About your line...planes optimised for carrier ops will find it difficult to fly in the hills...Please explain your L logic...
I never said the above statement.. what i said was "Planes optimized for carrier operations may find it difficult to deal with hilly terrain... "... I know that all MMRCA planes will be able to fly above himalayas.. but what i meant is many are not optimised for hilly terrain.. for eg, carrier optimised aircraft will have the additional weight which is a negative mark.. also in himalayas a good pilot can always maneuver to break the radar lock. Again a carrier optimized plane may be in disadvantage.. remember we are dealing with China in our easter border whom i consider a good as our guys..


Again I am not against SH or in favour of Mig 35. My personal favorite is Rafale.

I accept the fact that i have absolutely zero defense background. I owe BR and wiki for whatever i know about military machines, something i learned as a daily visitor of BR for last 8-9 years..
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

good link about russian radars

http://www.rusarm.ru/cataloque/air_craf ... 99-102.pdf

and no one will find similar techinical information about american or european radars :D enjoy

and this is what Mr Igorr pointed about the query to fit zhuk ae on LCA

OSA radar on mig29 two seater

http://www.airshow.ru/expo/111/images/prod_775_250.jpg

lets see whether IAF equips this radar on their mig29 two seaters

mig21 fitted with kopyo M radar will totally outclass mig21 lancer upgrade makes mig21bison more capable.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

sorry if posted before

active seeker for RVV AE

http://www.rusarm.ru/cataloque/air_craf ... 07-110.pdf
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Baldev wrote: mig35 is closer to mig29k thats why i mentioned mig29k production line which is totally new,there is no mig29 production line running anymore so from where the idea of mig29 production line to be came in your mind :?:

only mig29k production line which will produce 30 additional mig29k,not to mention why russia will spend money to create new production line for only 18 mig35 when they can use the mig29k production line for this purpose :)
I am not sure why it is so difficult to understand what the MiG folks stated.

I would think the MiG Admins KNOW the argument you are making and in spite of that have stated that they cannot deliver the 18 before 2014. They know what the MRCA RFP states - 18 by 2012.



Strange.

_________________________________________

On RUAF and MiG-35 - so far it is just hot air?

I have stated this before. The ONLY way the MiG-35 should be selected is IF RUAF buys from India, Indian made MiG-35s. Deduct the cost of these MiGs from the 10/11 billion for the MRCA and get the AC.

I doubt that the RUAF will get the MiG-35. They are struggling to get the Su-35.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

ji,

Perhaps you should visit old threads on the MRCA and see what has been posted. MRCA threads have been in existence for some 10 years now.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Raveen »

rajeshks wrote:
About your line...planes optimised for carrier ops will find it difficult to fly in the hills...Please explain your L logic...
I never said the above statement.. what i said was "Planes optimized for carrier operations may find it difficult to deal with hilly terrain... "... I know that all MMRCA planes will be able to fly above himalayas.. but what i meant is many are not optimised for hilly terrain.. for eg, carrier optimised aircraft will have the additional weight which is a negative mark.. also in himalayas a good pilot can always maneuver to break the radar lock. Again a carrier optimized plane may be in disadvantage.. remember we are dealing with China in our easter border whom i consider a good as our guys..
The performance characteristics and T/W ratio of all contenders is well known and meets or exceeds RFP standards
so this whole argument about additional weight means nothing since the aircraft in question meets or exceeds performance and T/W ratio requirements stated in the RFP...with or without it's carrier optimised layout and resulting additional wt.
Since the performance meets or exceeds RFP standards there is no reason to assume that said plane would be unable to manoeuvre to IAF's satisfaction or 'break radar lock in Himalayas'
rajeshks wrote:Do you think that 2013 can not be changed ?
What Mig said is from a company perspective but do remember that Medvedev and Putin personally want to improve the defece relations with india. If there is a push from such a level i am sure dates will be advanced.. afterall the RFP states that the first plane should be deliverd within 36 months after signing the deal.. No one knows when we are going to decide and sign the deal.
Yes, no one knows when we will sign the deal, and therefore no one knows when Mig will (or will not) bag the order, get the funds and setup a production line since as of now the plane does not exist and there are no other customers therefore no reason to create a line
They will only create a line if they have orders, and the only place the plane is in contention is in MRCA contest...so they must win this in order to setup the line...I think you get the logic here...no push from anyone is going to setup a line for a plane with no customers
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by NRao »

Do you think that 2013 can not be changed ?
What Mig said is from a company perspective but do remember that Medvedev and Putin personally want to improve the defece relations with india. If there is a push from such a level i am sure dates will be advanced.. afterall the RFP states that the first plane should be deliverd within 36 months after signing the deal.. No one knows when we are going to decide and sign the deal.
What can politics do when there is a lack of supply chain?

The read is that the MiG-35 is substantially different than the MiG-29. Diff enough to make suppliers not to invest until the MiG-35 is selected. which is why, we suspect, that the MiG folks stated that they cannot deliver until 2014. Makes sense.

This also is an indicator that the RUAF "order" is not quite true.

I would suspect that the RUAF is either bluffing or is waiting for the IAF to make up its mind, so, if the IAF selects the 35 then the RUAF may tag along. My gut feel is that the prior is true.

-----------------------

Besides, I feel that both Russia and India as partners are FAR better off to invest in the PAK-FA/FGFA. The MRCA deal WRT RU can fail, but the 5th gen cannot fail.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by rajeshks »

Thank you all for your comments. I am happy that i am learning more by discussing with you.

The performance of each plane over himalayan terrain will be measured during the test at Leh. Will the performace characteristics of all planes will remain the same if its operated from a high altitude base. IAF is taking the planes to Leh itself means that they have serious doubts about that. We cant always trust what is shown in PPTs.

What i was talking about is not the performance by a healthy plane but the one which got damaged in war and wont be able to reach home. In a war against china the chances of a plane getting damaged is very high. So how gracefully the plane and IAF can handle such a situation is what i was interested in. (If a Maruti 800 breaks down in a village you may be able to get it repaired and reach home before night but what about a BMW? ). I have read about F15 landing after loosing a wing or the numerous Vir Chakras given to brave IAF pilots for landing damaged aircrafts.

Please, i am not trying to counter anyone or to defeat anyones argument. I am just trying to say that there can be other scenarious, i may be wrong.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Raveen »

rajeshks wrote:Thank you all for your comments. I am happy that i am learning more by discussing with you.

The performance of each plane over himalayan terrain will be measured during the test at Leh. Will the performace characteristics of all planes will remain the same if its operated from a high altitude base. IAF is taking the planes to Leh itself means that they have serious doubts about that. We cant always trust what is shown in PPTs.
I am not refering to the PPTs at all
What I am saying is the despite/due to carrier optimization the A/C is able to achieve a certain AoA, Turn rate, climb rate, top speed, etc. that matches RFP requirements or else the IAF would not be testing it and Boeing wouldn't be lobbying for it
So your extra wt theory is doesnt make sense
rajeshks wrote: What i was talking about is not the performance by a healthy plane but the one which got damaged in war and wont be able to reach home. In a war against china the chances of a plane getting damaged is very high. So how gracefully the plane and IAF can handle such a situation is what i was interested in. (If a Maruti 800 breaks down in a village you may be able to get it repaired and reach home before night but what about a BMW? ). I have read about F15 landing after loosing a wing or the numerous Vir Chakras given to brave IAF pilots for landing damaged aircrafts.

Please, i am not trying to counter anyone or to defeat anyones argument. I am just trying to say that there can be other scenarious, i may be wrong.
I can pointlessly argue that you wouldnt expect a BMW to break down as often and similarly a superior plane would be expected to cause damage before and more often than it recieves it...but in your original post I did not see any mention of a damaged plane etc and even then your argument favors twin engined A/C

The only way to test A/C survivability after taking a hit (that I know of) is to hit the plane and then fly it; I sincerely doubt that will ever happen...so one has to base assumptions of survivability based on factors like # of engines and general ruggedness where the carrier optimizations would actually help survivability and thus the supposed extra wt argument trips all over itself

Rajesh buddy no one is trying to defeat anyone anywhere and I am glad we have a forum like BR to discuss stuff like this...this is just a casual discussion...the beauty is...everyone/anyone and no one on BR is/can/may be wrong/right...thats why it's called a discussion...we can only get the right answers by first sorting through the wrong questions...and trust me everyone has asked some and is capable of asking more in the future...(with the exception of the BRAdminullahs...don't wanna tick em off :P)



***One post away from my first century @ BR***
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Anthony Hines »

Looks like the Brazilians are having second thoughts...
Brazil extends final bid deadline for FX-2 fighter deal
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... -deal.html

By Stephen Trimble

The Brazilian air force has granted three competitors 10 more days to submit a final round of proposals to sell a minimum of 36 fighters under its FX-2 contract.

The three finalists - the Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Dassault Rafale F3 and Saab Gripen NG - now have until 2 October to complete their bids for the multi-billion dollar contract, according to an air force statement.

Brazil is extending the tender at the request of the bidding teams. "The three competitors have shown improvements in the offers to the selection process," the statement says.

The extension comes two weeks after the contest appeared to be closed. On 7 September, Brazilian President Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva and French President Nicolas Sarkozy announced the selection of the Rafale. However, Brazilian defence minister Nelson Jobim clarified the following day that the competition remained open.

Air force officials are continuing to research all three proposals before making a recommendation, which will be forwarded to da Silva's office.

Da Silva has already made it clear that he prefers the Rafale, based on its promised price and degree of technology transfer, which have been proposed by Sarkozy. France has also committed to buy between 10 and 15 Embraer KC-390 tanker-transports.

Meanwhile, Boeing and Saab each say they have "sweetened their offer". Boeing is proposing local final assembly, while Saab has offered to slash the price of Gripen in half to clinch the deal.

The US and Swedish bidders must also overcome a wave of new political and industrial collaboration between Brazil and France, which has already led to deals to supply 50 Eurocopter EC725 helicopters and four submarines to the Brazilian military.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by nikhil_p »

The performance of each plane over himalayan terrain will be measured during the test at Leh. Will the performace characteristics of all planes will remain the same if its operated from a high altitude base. IAF is taking the planes to Leh itself means that they have serious doubts about that. We cant always trust what is shown in PPTs.
It is not about the 'trust'...it is about the performance. What is important is what is the MTOW of the a/c at LEH or other bases where the air is rarified. the T/W ratio at that altitude is an important factor when this kind of flight is undertaken.
What i was talking about is not the performance by a healthy plane but the one which got damaged in war and wont be able to reach home. In a war against china the chances of a plane getting damaged is very high. So how gracefully the plane and IAF can handle such a situation is what i was interested in. (If a Maruti 800 breaks down in a village you may be able to get it repaired and reach home before night but what about a BMW? ). I have read about F15 landing after loosing a wing or the numerous Vir Chakras given to brave IAF pilots for landing damaged aircrafts.
Most aircraft that are currently made (and are a part of the MRCA brigade) are meant to be unstable by design. This makes them lot more capable dogfighters. In the past this was not the case. Also most a/c now are either full or partial FBW with hydraulics controlling the control surfaces. In case of a complete failure they are backed up by electric systems and also by manual systems. However, in case a control surface of a modern A/c is shot off it will become highly unstable to fly and land manually. Your quote about the F15 is valid simply because the F15 was originally designed as a stable a/c unlike the later F-16, Rafale, EF etc.
Chances are if a plane is damaged...the enemy might as well finish it off...even the gun is enough.

Also, carrier optimized a/c have redesigned landing gear, which by itself adds to most of the weight. Also Wing roots are strengthed. This could easily be replaced. Moreover the T/W ratio with the additional weight is generally higher or equal to the a/c which are land based. So if you reduce this additional weight you could in theory achieve a better T/W ratio.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by RameshC »

Mig cant begin manufacturing before end 2013 or early 2014, the last of the 18 will arrive well beyond 2016 and may be even 2018 knowing Russian nature of delay. RUAF has not ordered the mig-35 and they wont order till we do. mig comes too late, too old and not effective enough. its not so easy to break lock any more when flying against aircraft like the SH, Rafal, Ef etc. not in the himalays or any where else, they have very good helmet mounted cueing systems with gr8 pilot situational awareness, all the pilot has to do is keep his head and nose pointed at the target. T/W ratio can be increased using more powerful engines as well just what GE is doing with SH's GE F414 EPE, increase from 22,000lbs to 26,000lbs per engines or 52,000lbs per aircraft.
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

NRao wrote:I am not sure why it is so difficult to understand what the MiG folks stated.

I would think the MiG Admins KNOW the argument you are making and in spite of that have stated that they cannot deliver the 18 before 2014. They know what the MRCA RFP states - 18 by 2012.

RUAF and MiG-35 - so far it is just hot air?

I have stated this before. The ONLY way the MiG-35 should be selected is IF RUAF buys from India, Indian made MiG-35s. Deduct the cost of these MiGs from the 10/11 billion for the MRCA and get the AC.

I doubt that the RUAF will get the MiG-35. They are struggling to get the Su-35.
MRCA deal only going to be signed by the end of next year or early 2011 from that date you can count 3 years from delivery which is almost end of 2013 or starting 2014

when aussie ordered shornet in march 2007 they will get aircraft only next year by march,april so its 3 year time

and our silly govt. isn't going to order by late next year so form where you get 2012 induction date :?:

and yes better talk of our air force rather than talking of RuAF :|
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

india has three options to get AESA tech without any problem including software codes

1. from israel with love elta2052 for LCA
2.from france with love rbe2 aesa from france
3.from russia with love zhuk ae and aesa for su30 from NIIP

so i think these loving technologies from three countries are more than enough for us to digest there should be no need for any more i hope :mrgreen:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Raveen »

Baldev wrote:
NRao wrote:I am not sure why it is so difficult to understand what the MiG folks stated.

I would think the MiG Admins KNOW the argument you are making and in spite of that have stated that they cannot deliver the 18 before 2014. They know what the MRCA RFP states - 18 by 2012.

RUAF and MiG-35 - so far it is just hot air?

I have stated this before. The ONLY way the MiG-35 should be selected is IF RUAF buys from India, Indian made MiG-35s. Deduct the cost of these MiGs from the 10/11 billion for the MRCA and get the AC.

I doubt that the RUAF will get the MiG-35. They are struggling to get the Su-35.
MRCA deal only going to be signed by the end of next year or early 2011 from that date you can count 3 years from delivery which is almost end of 2013 or starting 2014
Baldev, the point is Mig will only setup the production line after they win which = delivery in 2014

RFP states that they need 18 airframes delievered in 2012 built in host country then the rest to be built in India TTBOMK
therefore, Mig will not be able to provide the Mig-35 in time per RFP requirements
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Baldev »

Raveen wrote:RFP states that they need 18 airframes delievered in 2012 built in host country then the rest to be built in India TTBOMK
therefore, Mig will not be able to provide the Mig-35 in time per RFP requirements
you are right though but the timeline set in RFP is wrong,as i said that there is no contract to be singed before late next year and form late 2010 to late 2012 is just two years and there is no company which can deliver aircrafts in 2012 so even now do you really believe what RFP states :?:
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Post by Raveen »

Baldev wrote:
Raveen wrote:RFP states that they need 18 airframes delievered in 2012 built in host country then the rest to be built in India TTBOMK
therefore, Mig will not be able to provide the Mig-35 in time per RFP requirements
you are right though but the timeline set in RFP is wrong,as i said that there is no contract to be singed before late next year and form late 2010 to late 2012 is just two years and there is no company which can deliver aircrafts in 2012 so even now do you really believe what RFP states :?:
Even if you were to extrapolate the timeline...since Mig wont even begin to setup the line till they win...they can never comply no matter which year it is

Example:
if the deal was to be signed in '09 and 18 delieverd in '12
they cant do it
even if we sign in '11 and therefore logically 18 to be delievered in '14
they still cant comply since they wont even begin to build the production line till '11
their claim of delivering in '14 is based on signing in '09-'10 which you are assuming is not going to happen anyhow...the logic is pretty clear it will take them nearly 4-5 years to setup line and deliver the 18 as per thier own calculations from the date of signing....irrespective of the year of signing
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