MRCA News and Discussion

RameshC · Post by **RameshC** » 25 Sep 2009 14:23

lca has outperformed global standards, we build the world's lightest and smallest combat jet, our approach is far better, lca mk-2 will be the deadliest single engine aircraft ever made...watch and wait. crashes happen because thse aircraft are too powerful with a lot of agility a high speed turn could put a pilot out of conciousness for a few seconds enough for disaster to strike. operational F-22 crashed in the hands of an experienced pilot due to heavy G-loc, first rafale crash was also due to spatial dis-orientation, this is offcourse a problem that could occur on any high G-aircraft like the EF, Rafale, SH, MKI, mig, PAKFA, f-35, f-22. they push pilots to the edge of human physiology. lots of crashes occur due to human error no nation is immune to that even the su-35 crashed during testing dont know why but it did. LCA has been very fortunate because we have had long time for developement and a lot to learn on the go as well. LCA mk-1 trainer still make the best super sonic trainer in the world and hence i think IAF should order at least 40-60 just for the final stage of super sonic training for fighter pilots, they should convert the existing ones to two seat trainer versions and make our the only AF to have 4 stages of training for fighter pilots.

i know how US lobbys works, being a democracy, US congress is not immune to different voices, majority wins, if you can convince more than 50-60% of the house and most of the senate into a particular policy, bill, law, treaty or whatever, its done. i have studied US lobbying laws, i have seen the house and senate in live action, its just a very advanced level of babu-giri, many voices , any opinions, many ideologies, many prejudicies, many concerns they have, sometimes even looks stupid...but hey we have seen such mockery even in our Lok sabha , democracies are not immune to it. we have a lot in common, we have to make our voice heard, Pak gets away with it because believe it or not they have a very strong lobby in DC, i have seen them too,. they are those well educated types, with fake accents, talking about aid, talking about how sincere their efforts are, how much India poses a threat to them. we indians have always have a nature of adjusting which has to change first, 3 jawans dies 1 major for 4militants, adjust kar lo, why is it that even today most of our police dont even carry guns, why is that our soldiers at the frontline dont have decent BP jackets?? very few genuinly care and do something about it.

US obviously has a long way to go before we get comfy with them, but they are taking small steps, which is good, its better than taking large rirrational steps which is why its gr8 the nature of this competiton, i said it before if US doesnt give full-tot no way we go for its platforms but we can still hope they do, because if they do well it shows their strategic commitment and if we have full-tot, i dont think India will shy away. its as simple " i am customer, we want full-tot, put up or shut up", if we are direct, persistent and push for it, we can get what we want, we certainly wont get anything if we just keep thinking we wont get anything and not do anything about it.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 25 Sep 2009 14:53

RameshC wrote:i know how US lobbys works, being a democracy, US congress is not immune to different voices, majority wins, if you can convince more than 50-60% of the house and most of the senate into a particular policy, bill, law, treaty or whatever, its done. i have studied US lobbying laws, i have seen the house and senate in live action, its just a very advanced level of babu-giri, many voices , any opinions, many ideologies, many prejudicies, many concerns they have, sometimes even looks stupid...but hey we have seen such mockery even in our Lok sabha , democracies are not immune to it.

Geopolitics is not decided by India or Pak lobbies in white house. Its decided by anglo-saxon interests.

Don't believe in "Discovery" channel psy-op shows on "WhiteHouse of Truth".

These lobbies are just a way to control political motives of immigrant lobbies. They have no holdings on policy.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 25 Sep 2009 15:04

RameshC wrote:i said it before if US doesnt give full-tot no way we go for its platforms but we can still hope they do, because if they do well it shows their strategic commitment and if we have full-tot, i dont think India will shy away. its as simple " i am customer, we want full-tot, put up or shut up", if we are direct, persistent and push for it, we can get what we want, we certainly wont get anything if we just keep thinking we wont get anything and not do anything about it.

I don't agree.

Its better to go for DRDO-private industry defense complex, where NRI's are directly hired from around the world. Rather than inviting American defense MNC's to create a weapons lobby in Delhi which will be stronger than Russian lobby and we will end up in permanent foreign dependence in defense security matters.

Instead of running after ToT(noone gives defense tech. on PLATE), we should do what Russians, Americans are doing at their home and what China is trying to do now.

We are in full reverse gear with MRCA.

PrithviRajChauhan · Post by **PrithviRajChauhan** » 25 Sep 2009 16:43

RameshC wrote:c'mon stop being so naive..26/11 happened not because of renewed LET will to disrupt life in India, they have always been doing that, there is nothing new about it, besides 26/11 happned and which is why now our seas are much more secure, just like after 9/11 the US is much safer, i remember i could carry a massive kitchen knife on an US aircraft while travelling those days are gone. things happen, they hit the parliament what heck is the oberoi, they had the balls to come in our own capital and hit our symbol of democracy, you think those people care, 26/11 has highlighted gaps in training, equipment and martime security, terrible things happen but everything is a learning exp. today 3 jawans and major died in encounter in J&K trying to kill 4 militants..3 jawans and 1 major for 4 militants, sorry but poor training, these daily casualities shows more gaps in training, equipment and tactics. besides the constant activity at border is why our troops are very potent because they always keep busy, an army cant afford to laze around, besides we have no problem killing them...so yes they make good target practice, matter of fact i think they should just dump young probationary jawans into the field and gain some exp killing those ********.

full-tot has nothing to do with source codes, US can give full-tot but source codes...no way...they could allow us to add to the source code which is possible. well even with source codes it will take us well over 7 years just to understand the flow of the code not to mention learn to add to it or customize it further, this even for a mig or rafale will take just as much time. its not easy working with source codes or understanding them. who cares if we dont have bomb that makes a bigger explosion, regardless of what anyone tells you, India is never going to bomb an enemy city, its not in our nature to hit cities, our enemy will try to hit our cities but our BMD will prevail, our smaller, easily deployable nukes will be used on key targets like air bases, naval bases and army divisions, one dosesnt need 200kt bonbs to level Pak. regardless of what you believe you never bomb civilians or cities with nukes, karma has way to come back around. we already have 200kt nukes so i dont think we need any more powerful weapons. for the past decade, we have slowly begun working with the US, you dont expect this to be one night stand right, both US and India are looking for a long term relationship, so yeah long term relations need work, a basis has to be set, and what nuclear castration, please stop being so foolish, as if we didnt have enough weapons to level both china and Pak what more do you want, these are nukes and not some toys.

people find ways to talk shit all the time, nuclear castration, trust me if we set on off now in Pak, millions will still die, nuclear castraion, what a load of bs. shame on you for wanting a bigger weapon. what we need is good platforms and need to stop worrying about some strategic stuff that hardly matter, instead of acting like begger, we should simply take control, tell the US to put up or shut up and if we do it properly they will oblige. you underestimate the power of the worlds' largest democracy. indo -us relations are beyong one admin. ofama or whoever the fak he is dont matter, because in the end its companies like LM, boeing that decide his fate, without defence lobby, president is nothing. defence products are their biggest exports, companies are powerful and can influence. moreover Gripen , Rafale, EF, SH and F-16 all have US made parts, mig is late, in one way or the other you will have to deal with them. they can as of now cancel the delivery of remining 2 awacs if they want. even with mig doesnt matter, India cant go to war with Pak or china without US permission or atleast letting them know. so please stop the whining, more people flood from india to US than to any place else, we are both democracies and have much to learn from eachother.

You need to read my post from an unbiased and right perspective, without using your made in US specs which you love so much.
Regarding your 26/11 hallucination you say that since they can attack the parliament they can strike anywhere at their will and that is quite normal. Seriously, the logic is totally bull shXX. What I was trying to say in my previous post was that even if you cover one area and totally secure it , even then the problem will not be solved as the so called rats will try to sneak from some other place and the same happened in 26/11. Yes comparatively now we are taking some steps to secure our coastline but saying that this will make us as secure as US is height of optimism. Intruders will always try some other new and unique way of harming India next time You cannot term this as a learning experience, there is fine line which divides negligence and learning experience. Be clear about that. You yourself says that the casualties suffered by Indian troops can be a case of poor training but still rubbishes the intruders as rats and sitting ducks. Contradictory I would say.

OK, for time being even if I assume that full source code has nothing to do with full ToT what I was trying to emphasize there is that full ToT is not unkils strong point. You may counter this by saying that unkil is ready for ToT as per the RFP but still if others contenders can provide better value for our bucks then why not, we should obviously choose their bird. FYI, every other contender has agreed to for transfer of source code other that your beloved unkil.
http://expressbuzz.com/edition/story.as ... 0%20combat
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 15243.html
Can you kindly let me know the source of this inside and confidential info of taking more than 7 year just to understand source codes? Are you of this opinion that the IAF is not looking for source codes just because its too complex?

"regardless of what anyone tells you, India is never going to bomb an enemy city, its not in our nature to hit cities"
You obviously have not heard of MAD (Mutual Assured Destruction). We dont need 200 KT n bomb to level Beijing or Shangai but we do need it to tell the chinks and any other adversary that we guarantee their destruction if they think of ours. It is the fear of 200 kt n Bomb which will prevent 200 kt n bomb landing on our heads. You need to learn more about MAD and second strike capabilities which again are of top most priority to India. There is a reason why US and SU never went to war even at the height of cold war.

"karma has way to come back around."
Ohh puhleese, do not preach me the theory of Karma as it is your unkil, the only n power which actually nuked the "civilian population". Tell him how it can hit him back as per his Bad Karma. Look who is talking here, funny !

"we already have 200kt nukes" .
I would be happy if we do have but just remember that the confusion about the TN device is still going on.
Again I am reiterating myself here that let the country scientific community and security situation decide the need of testing. We should not take unkils permission to asses and address our security concerns.

"i dont think we need any more powerful weapons."
Would you mind keeping your suggestion to yourself. I can see the same fact was once upon a time in 1960s said by Pt. Jawahar Lal Nehru and we all know what happened next.

"we have slowly begun working with the US, you dont expect this to be one night stand right."
Right, but have you for a second thought that from where else can US Army get an handsome combat like experience with a powerful army which uses primarily non NATO combat equipments.This relationship is atleast mutually beneficial. The same is true for rest of the defence forces of both countries.

"what nuclear castration, please stop being so foolish, as if we didnt have enough weapons to level both china and Pak what more do you want, these are nukes and not some toys."
It seems like after reading my post you straightway went to nuclear vault and personally supervised all the nukes we had and then came to this conclusion. Good Morning !, please wake up now.

"shame on you for wanting a bigger weapon."
A big shame on you for all the above points. Seriously, people comment on subject without actually understanding them. Learn about MAD and then try to understand what I have said.

"what we need is good platforms and need to stop worrying about some strategic stuff that hardly matter."
We need good platforms but stop worrying strategic stuff? Are you serious here? Do you know these strategic stuff most of the time prevents two countries going for an all out war. Learn about the importance of Strategic Stuff.

"instead of acting like begger, we should simply take control, tell the US to put up or shut up and if we do it properly they will oblige."
Music to the ears.

"you underestimate the power of the worlds' largest democracy. indo -us relations are beyong one admin. ofama or whoever the fak he is dont matter, because in the end its companies like LM, boeing that decide his fate, without defence lobby, president is nothing."
OMG, India was and is the largest democracy for the past more than 6 decade. Can you cite a single example how successfully we have used this argument in our benefit wrt unkil. Indi-US realtions are beyond one admin. obviously but it fluctuates heavily when the administration changes. Do I need to tell you how the approach of Bush admin. was differernt from "Hussian" admn? Ahh today morning I got the news of unkil releasing another package of 7.5 billion $ for TSP which obviously it will use against Taliban, gr8.

"moreover Gripen , Rafale, EF, SH and F-16 all have US made parts, mig is late, in one way or the other you will have to deal with them"
I am no supporter of MiG but even if I have to deal with unkil and if their policies remains detrimental to India then I would choose a product which has minimum exposure to US techs. BTW can you tell me what critical component Rafale is using which is of US origin? Try to understand one thing that we need a weapon to defend ourselves in which we have full faith and more important full control.

"they can as of now cancel the delivery of remining 2 awacs if they want"
AWACS was the game changer in South Asia. We could not get this without issy help. But also remember that it was signed when Bush was at the helm.You are right they can cancel if they want, but obviously they will not do anything stupid unless and untill we do something completely different to their expectations. Who would want to loose a multi billion market ? Try supporting IPI gas line and you would see different music coming from white house.

"India cant go to war with Pak or china without US permission or atleast letting them know"
There is a BIG BIG difference between letting them know and taking permission from them. Be clear about that. For that matter we may inform Russia also but taking permission is different case altogether. I am not sure but are you saying that if tomorrow TSP or Chink attack us , we would take permission from unkil to defend ourselves. Did TSP took permission from unkil when they did Kargil? Or are you saying we are even more pathetic and dependent then TSP?. Its a dangerous and irresponsible statement you are making without any proof. The country is doomed if it needs permission to defend itself . We may ask for help but taking permission.. (slave mentality working)

"stop the whining, more people flood from india to US than to any place else, we are both democracies and have much to learn from each other."
Yeah I know that, if given a chance more and more people would migrate to US but thats a human tendency to go for a luxurious and comfortable life. If today US can provide that environment, more and more people would like to go there. But keep that argument aside when talkin about defence. We have to defend our nation irrespective of US. We need to think in a manner which is best for our interest not US.

avinash.rd · Post by **avinash.rd** » 25 Sep 2009 16:52

sumshyam wrote: My friend ... If it is about changing basic format of the deal... I will say..we should go out with 90+ Mig-35s and around 30 Tu-160 BlackJacks. That will be the ultimate answer to all of our problem ....!!!

sumshyam,

Do u think that amazing piece of machine is on sale???

Even the great Soviet Union built only 35 of those beauties!!

I kinda like the idea.

India should buy Raduga Kh-15 (air-to-surface missile) also.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Raduga_Kh-15

This will make Dragon look like a FLY.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 25 Sep 2009 17:44

Time to rename this thread to "Everything except MMRCA" !

Sumair · Post by **Sumair** » 25 Sep 2009 18:34

RameshC wrote: i have studied US lobbying laws, .

US lobbying laws? Where did you study these?

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 25 Sep 2009 18:45

vishwakarmaa wrote: Its better to go for DRDO-private industry defense complex, where NRI's are directly hired from around the world. Rather than inviting American defense MNC's to create a weapons lobby in Delhi which will be stronger than Russian lobby and we will end up in permanent foreign dependence in defense security matters.

Instead of running after ToT (no one gives defense tech. on PLATE), we should do what Russians, Americans are doing at their home and what China is trying to do now.

We are in full reverse gear with MRCA.

Well...I am quite agree with you.. Indian Govt. must give possible preference to home grown industries... we can't keep on buying till the end ....!!!

one thing more... there is no point in calling those who do not answer... we can do it... on our own... being from a premier technical institution i think so... just Govt. need to reward or punish its employees for what they have achieved at the end of the day..... The delays are on the behalf of poor project management.... which in turn is due to NO ONE's head is responsible for these delays... !!

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 25 Sep 2009 18:53

avinash.rd wrote: sumshyam,

Do u think that amazing piece of machine is on sale???

Well my friend....it is not like "IT IS ON SELL OR NOT"......as far as I remember F-22 was also out for sell...but at aquite high price...!!!

wiki says wrote:Israeli Air Force (IAF) chief procurement officer Brigadier-General Ze'ev Snir said that "The IAF would be happy to equip itself with 24 F-22s, but the problem at this time is the US refusal to sell the aircraft, and its $200 million price tag."

It is always like...how you persuade someone to do you a favor.

and Please call me Shyam... not sumshyam.

RameshC · Post by **RameshC** » 25 Sep 2009 18:59

PRC...or prthivirajchauahn or whatever ur name is...26/11 happened because we were sleeping, the enemy we face is not new, they have always found new ways to hit us, the point is what are we doing about it, so far nothing, how many lives did we have to lose for the army to finally realise we need fencing of the border...please just because we are Indian doesnt mean we are good, matter of fact our state of affairs is pathetic too often. 6 cobras, 36 greyhounds, the so called elite have been killed. its all bs, source codes have very little use and unkil has the largest library of threats in the world...source codes are in Indeed a pain in the ass, you want to know more, read more. who gives a flying ****** when we can still waste china and Pak with nukes and contrary to what anyone tells you no one is going to authorize a direct strike on an enemy city. unkil has always been a victim of bad karma unless you think their losses in vietnam, iraq, 9/11 were just small numbers...listen bro..go read more and learn more, talking shit aint going to get you anywhere, and whats with ur language you wanna play rough, dont even go there, i am a PHD in curse words. your perspective dont mean jack here, my perspective dont mean jack either, the fact is IAf is aware of unkil's behaviour they know US has never given tot to any one, yet i wonder why the ****** have we sent the rfp knowing that the f-16 is old, why the ****** did we set a limit of 60% tot, stop bullshitting and look at facts. ****** MAD or whatever that is, no Indian leader will ever authorize a strike on enemy city, yes you cant escape Karma and again watch ur language, dont make me unload my arsenal. Rafale's infamous EW suite comes from US as well as a lot of critical parts.

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... ult_Rafale

you dont understand that we still have to deal with them, the mig is a piece of shit and wont be ready till 2013, now ****** delays get used to the fact that US will win a lot of defence deals, your ranting wont stop that, their platforms outperform their competiton and hence they will win a lot of deals...C-17s, more c-130Js, P-8s, E-2D hawkeyes, V-22s, AEGIS, apaches, Chinooks, f-18SH, even the infamous f-35 will be acquired at a later stage, just wait and watch. just because you spent 20 mins writing about how unkil molested you while you were still young isnt going to change that they are part of the competitors, they are in gr8 postion to technically impress and they seem committed. either way win or loose the US will be part of Indian defence and you or me cant change that unless we stop going for competitive bids, the moment you open it up as a competitive bid, US will bid and will have a chance of winning. In india all deals are now competitive bids and hence the ideal candidate wins.
you seem to have way too much time on your hand and seem so obsessed with conspiracy theories talking about how unkil is just bent on screwing india. well your fears are baseless..the chances of you getting gang raped while walking down the streets of bombay is much higher than unkil trying to screw us over in the event of war.

i had lobbying as one of my courses during my MBA at Harvard few years ago where we had to learn all about US lobbying, many case studies including how the infamous B-2 was lobbied through congress and senate, we even had exact firgues paid by each company, these were files which were de-classfied a long time after B-2 was operational.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 25 Sep 2009 20:11

RameshC wrote:you dont understand that we still have to deal with them, the mig is a piece of shit and wont be ready till 2013, now ****** delays get used to the fact that US will win a lot of defence deals, your ranting wont stop that, their platforms outperform their competiton and hence they will win a lot of deals...C-17s, more c-130Js, P-8s, E-2D hawkeyes, V-22s, AEGIS, apaches, Chinooks, f-18SH

anyway its MRCA thread.

aircraft selection isn't in our hands so my friend bring technical information so that others can get knowledge.

in simple answer Boeing has P8I cont. and will have C 17 or probably Chinook contract this makes Boeing out of MRCA competition this is as much as 8-9 billion for one company so Boeing won't get MRCA cont.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 25 Sep 2009 20:22

there are three points in RFP

1.Aircraft must meet parameters set for evaluation.
2.First aircraft to be delivered after 36 months of signing the contract.
3.10-11 billion for 126 aircrafts.
4.Cheapest aircraft which meets RFP parameters will be selected.

so according to third and fourth points above knocks out rafale,f16/18,typhoon only gripen and mig meets these two last points

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 25 Sep 2009 20:48

Baldev wrote: only gripen and mig meets these two last points

Well....and Grippen is more or less similar to LCA ...so there is No point in selecting this...also it do not add any strategic value to our country...!!!

So the winner is Mig-35.

hahahaha..!!!

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 25 Sep 2009 20:51

sumshyam wrote:Well....and Grippen is more or less similar to LCA ...so there is No point in selecting this...also it do not add any strategic value to our country...!!!

So the winner is Mig-35.hahahaha..!!!

not necessarily just because Russia will have 50 more su30mki + 30 mig29k and there may be more mki ordered in future say in 2012.

and in future mki may carry these
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/852/40 ... 0m750x.jpg

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 25 Sep 2009 21:00

Baldev wrote: not necessarily just because Russia will have 50 more su30mki + 30 mig29k and there may be more mki ordered in future say in 2012.

and in future mki may carry these
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/852/40 ... 0m750x.jpg

What is that...in Picture. I think it is some kinda bomb...but what kinda....!!!

RameshC · Post by **RameshC** » 25 Sep 2009 21:05

Baldev wrote:
RameshC wrote:you dont understand that we still have to deal with them, the mig is a piece of shit and wont be ready till 2013, now ****** delays get used to the fact that US will win a lot of defence deals, your ranting wont stop that, their platforms outperform their competiton and hence they will win a lot of deals...C-17s, more c-130Js, P-8s, E-2D hawkeyes, V-22s, AEGIS, apaches, Chinooks, f-18SH
anyway its MRCA thread.

aircraft selection isn't in our hands so my friend bring technical information so that others can get knowledge.

in simple answer Boeing has P8I cont. and will have C 17 or probably Chinook contract this makes Boeing out of MRCA competition this is as much as 8-9 billion for one company so Boeing won't get MRCA cont.

i doubt that we bought so many things like fighters from mig cpmany, we bought so many transports from Illyushin why would Boeing's chances be limited, IN is also interested in the v-22. apache will win the attack helo deal as well.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 25 Sep 2009 21:10

RameshC wrote: IN is also interested in the v-22. apache will win the attack helo deal as well.

I am not so sure...but I had read somewhere that deal for helis were called off due to poor global response...??

also....interested in V-22..??

Gurus ..need some help...in what ever form..to for self-enlightenment..!!

PrithviRajChauhan · Post by **PrithviRajChauhan** » 25 Sep 2009 22:03

Hey RameshC, a very apt name as I understood what C stands for, obviously your post helped me in that. You need not take my permission for playing it rough and you are more than welcome to do that as you will get a very apt but logical reply. Now coming to your post, does it require a PhD to understand that I am replying or contradicting your post on points you have raised and providing logical reply to that, or does it require lobbying to make you understand that I expect you to contradict me on the points I have raised. We Indians do expect that people discussing on such serious topics would have some common sense but I understand its my mistake since lobbying was one your course during MBA in "Harvard" and you did not opted for Manners and common sense.
Coming to your post and again deciphering just for you:
"26/11 happened because we were sleeping, the enemy we face is not new, they have always found new ways to hit us, the point is what are we doing about it,"
Flush your Harvard Degree in an Indian WC if you are unable to understand simple english. I am saying the same thing which earlier you were terming it as "experience" with the exception that we are still not in the same place as Unkil. OK, simply put Unkil is much more safer and secure after 9/11 but we are not even after 26/11.

"please just because we are Indian doesnt mean we are good,"
Have I ever said that we Indians are good in this and that. Can you prove it any of my post? Obviously you cannot so better you come out of your rape fantasies (gang rape to be precise). Who knows may be you have taken course in that also in "Harvard".

"source codes have very little use and unkil has the largest library of threats in the world...source codes are in Indeed a pain in the ass,"
You will decide source code is pain in the ass ? May be the pain is in your ass but kindly leave IAF out of this. They will decide whether they want source codes or not.

when we can still waste china and Pak with nukes and contrary to what anyone tells you no one is going to authorize a direct strike on an enemy city
The way you are wasting others time here with your "Harvard" degree, if we can do the same against Chinks n Porks then I am quite assure our borders are secure . You obviously do not understand MAD infact you are mad at the suggestion that I gave you to learn about MAD and thats why you are bringing this useless argument of no one is going to authorize a direct strike on an enemy city. Again my mistake I admit that.

unkil has always been a victim of bad karma unless you think their losses in vietnam, iraq, 9/11 were just small numbers
HO HO HO Look who is talking here. After preaching Karma Sutra to India now presenting unkil with a victim face. gr8 !

whats with ur language you wanna play rough, dont even go there, i am a PHD in curse words.
See the language in your post and yeah I know that ,PHD from "Harvard", but this Indian graduate will give u a good (read better) company here, I assure you that.

the fact is IAf is aware of unkil's behaviour they know US has never given tot to any one, yet i wonder why the ****** have we sent the rfp knowing that the f-16 is old,
Dont we know why the Americans were involved here ? Apart from acquiring planes the deal could be of strategic importance (The same stuff which you were dismissing earlier). But having said that, the whole idea was since the US and Indias interest were converging it was a good idea for buying latest stuff from unkil. But if unkil plays dirty games with us like making us sign NPT, CTBTs then obviously the deal should not go to the Americans. Give little stress on you knee and try to understand how situation has changed from Bush to Obama, so all I am saying is that we need to consider the geo-political implications.

, yes you cant escape Karma and again watch ur language, dont make me unload my arsenal.
I am already trembling !

Rafale's infamous EW suite comes from US as well as a lot of critical parts
Why would we opt for something infamous, I am quite sure it can be replaced.

you dont understand that we still have to deal with them, the mig is a piece of shit and wont be ready till 2013
Did I ever suggested MiG. All I am saying is we should opt for a weapon which we can use it at our will. got it ?

their platforms outperform their competiton and hence they will win a lot of deals...C-17s, more c-130Js, P-8s, E-2D hawkeyes, V-22s, AEGIS, apaches, Chinooks, f-18SH, even the infamous f-35 will be acquired at a later stage, just wait and watch. just because you spent 20 mins writing about how unkil molested you while you were still young isnt going to change that they are part of the competitors, they are in gr8 postion to technically impress and they seem committed. either way win or loose the US will be part of Indian defence and you or me cant change that unless we stop going for competitive bids, the moment you open it up as a competitive bid, US will bid and will have a chance of winning.
I am quite sure no one molested me but if you are feeling "Gang Raped" by my post even then no apologies. You deserve that. Coming to the point
Fine, I am not doubting their technology or platforms. All I am saying is the need to watch out for the US policy and strings that they come with. It should not be the case that string outweighs their technological advancement.

In india all deals are now competitive bids and hence the ideal candidate wins.
You obviously need more understanding of India but can't blame you as it was not the part of your fame "Harvard" curriculum.

you seem to have way too much time on your hand and seem so obsessed with conspiracy theories talking about how unkil is just bent on screwing india. well your fears are baseless..the chances of you getting gang raped while walking down the streets of bombay is much higher than unkil trying to screw us over in the event of war.
When people talk shit, you have to make them understand that they are talking shit in their own language which I am doing here and obviously you are not liking it. Fear is relative term, you may enjoy a "Gang Rape" of yours and I may fear that. Now talking logically provide proof of your statement or remember the 7th carrier they sent in Bay of Bengal. Also the Pattons and Sabres they gave to TSPs. All confidence building measure from ur POV. And BTW same thing is happening today with the exception that now they r trying to arm both the countries.(by giving free packages to TSP and selling stuff here)

i had lobbying as one of my courses during my MBA at Harvard few years ago where we had to learn all about US lobbying, many case studies including how the infamous B-2 was lobbied through congress and senate, we even had exact firgues paid by each company, these were files which were de-classfied a long time after B-2 was operational.
What this has to do with India or MRCA. Listen ,you may have shot 10 tigers with the pataka Diwali gun while you were doing your MBA in "Harvard" but would you mind keeping your Sheik Chilli stories to yourself.

Take all the time you have to reply and if it is possible for you try to contradict on the points I have raised.
Again I am not saying American tech is inferior all I am saying is what is best out there may not be best for India when we take geo political issues into consideration.

As per my opinion I feel (and I know my opinion hardly counts in decision making), Gripen NG is the best suited bird for IAF. Low TCO, small take off, Data Link, good avionic package makes this bird ideal for IAF. Having said this I understand it has American engine which is the only major sore point. I would opt Rafale as the second best option.

rajeshks · Post by **rajeshks** » 25 Sep 2009 22:12

Philip wrote:"Round and round the merry-go-round"! We seem to be going round in circles on a merry-go-round with this deal.The horses in the competition go up and down with the strains of the accompanying music from each manufacturer,singing the praises of its own horse.Let's try and put together the latest news in perspective and see where the rival horses are in the race right now."Horses for courses" is an old saying and this MMRCA race is neither a sprint like the "2000 Guineas" nor the "Oaks".It is not a "St.Leger" either,which requires huge stamina from the animal,but more on the lines of that classic,the Epsom Derby,where the animal requires good staying power,plus "cornering" ability at Tattenham Corner,and the capacity to sprint well at the finish.The IAF's course is described as a "multi-role" one indicating just that.It also gives a distinct advantage to twin-engined mounts over single-engined ones for that "second-wind" requirement-meaning,range,endurance and payload.

No 1:Gripen.
The US has banned this filly from using an Israeli AESA radar,to keep its blinkers from being equal to or better than that of the F-18SH's (which seems to be the preferred choice for the US for India).Unless there is a setback to the LCA breeding programme,the Gripen is at the start of the race trotting at the tail end of the field,as though it would be perhaps cheaper than the others,it would mean acquiring a new aircraft and breeding tech.The SAAB stud farm also suffers from a major setback,the lack of a strong "jockey",meaning a political powerhouse,who can steer the horse through the bunch at the finish.In this respect,the US,Russia and the French probably have the best jockeys.

Odds:30-1 (good long shot though)

N0 2:F-16 Falcon.
This famous gelding ,rather long in the tooth,has been racing for three decades now and has in the past won many a trophy.But it is handicapped by its age and the fact that our rival stable to our west,wearing "green colours",has a horse from the same breeder and the same parents.Therefore,it is highly unlikely that we will want the equivalent of two Ambassador cars trying to race each other across Howrah Bridge (hilarious to behold),a task in which neither can defeat the other! In addition,the gelding is accused of quietly stealing secret measurements of the course from the clubhouse,infuriating its rivals especially the French,who want it disqualified or to run with a high handicap,The F-16 is slightly behind the Gripen at this stage of the race,gamely bringing up the rear.

Odds: 50-1

No 3:MIG-35.
This Russian stallion from the famous MIG bureau,has in its early "Coltish" days got the better in sprint exercises of the American gelding above,especially those animals in German colours.It dances in the air like a Nuryev or Nijinsky.The animal,has been fed on some 100 proof vodka and now is unequalled in the sprint,thanks to its TVC tail,which can swish in any direction,able to swat flies "tous azimuths" ! Its former "farting" problems have been resolved with a better diet and since Indian jockeys have ridden its younger brother before and are breeding the same,buying more for the IN too,should make it one of the hot favourites.In addition,it has a splendid Russian jockey,the very same one who rode the SU-30MKI into IAF colours,who "knows" Indian Race Clubs and their stewards very well,should it all come down to a photo-finish.Acquriing this supersonic sprinter should be the cheapest option for the IAF,especially as a nuclear fuelled fish has just been launched with Russian breeding expertise and another Russian bred fish is due later this year for the IN.However,there is a handicap factor going against this fancy from winning,its blinkers capability and in that the IAF already have that incomporable undefeated stallion,the SU-30MKI Flanker in its stable and are going to breed an even finer stealthy sprinter called the PAK-FA ,of 5th-genetic strain,from the Sukhoi stud farm.The IAF's stable might like to indulge in some cross-breeding by acquiring a European or western genetic strain of horseflesh to avoid too much of in-breeding.It's well placed for the final sprint,just behind the leaders.

Odds: 4-1

No 4:F-18 Super Hornet.
This expensive American pony has had as long an innings as the F-16 and the animal has been given massive doses of steroids to keep it racing like the late Flo-Jo.However,its long innings is coming to a close as owners like Oz do not want to buy any more from this family.Most of America's allies who race this beast are lusting after another young foal called the JSF F-35,plus this nag comes in at a very expensive price for its age and has no future for breeding.American breeders are trying their best to sell this pony with warpaint,claiming that their nag is favourite of western jockeys and has the best long-distance eyesight thanks to AESA blinkers.All the other animals in the race claim that they too have the same kind of blinkers,though of different make.However,the US had a smart jockey earlier called Bush,who saw to it that the supply of nuclear fodder was dependent upon India buying a US animal! The White House stud farm,under new Black management,will do its best to keep the deal from unravelling,and sent an experienced female jockey called Clinton to give it the whip.Unhappy Congressmen however are trying to put new conditions upon the supply of nuclear fodder and also dictate to India the specified courses where the animal can run and where it cannot.It also wants the right to inspect the animal wherever it is running and even during a race,to see if its testicles are not being used clandestinely for stud purposes!This to many in India is unacceptable,as it might prove impossible to entertain especially during a race againt mortal rival Pakistan.India is however willing to allow semen samples to be sent outside its stables for testing.It is this factor,that nuclear fodder ,other saddle-room spares and breeding technology might be witheld by America,especially if we test radio-active fodder again.Some insiders say that despite these handicaps,the stewards "have been made an offer they cannot refuse".Watch this pony's progress carefully keeping in mind that old axiom,"Money makes the mare go"!
Leading the pack at the moment,but can it remain first at the finish?

Odds: 5-1

No 5:Rafale.
This fine French filly is a raring to go anywhere and has great capability for the future.It can cavort across any course like a Moulin Rouge dancer and has a perfectly shaped body with superbly shaped boobs,lovely smooth legs and underbelly and an inviting behind.Having enjoyed the pleasure of riding iits older sister,the Mirage-2000,which has satisfied IAF jockeys for years,this animal should in fact be the hot favourite,but in typical French fashion,the horse entered the stalls facing in the opposite direction as they run so on French courses and was about to be disqualified to the delight of the Americans.The small made French jockey,Sarko,light in the saddle,came to its rescue and used Dassault's great influence with the stewards to allow it to continue in the race.The chief handicap of this splendid filly is that like all fine French wares,it is an expensive acquisition, and has not won any races outside Longchamp.It was unduly handicapped the French claim,thanks to some "pulling","doping" and opening the gates last at the start,due to American stable owners when running on pro-American courses in the Far East.Since the IAF jockeys have a taste for fine French fillies,this filly is in with a great chance.

The filly is running just behind the leaders ahead of the MIG-35

Odds:3-1.

No 5:EADS Typhoon,
This fine stallion is a cross-breed genetically,of the best of non-French European traditions.It is racing for several European nations,especially in the colours of British and German stables.Both a powerful sprinter and endued with great stamina,this European animal has the advantage that its breeder,EADS,has already won a race for a breeding contract for the LCA Tejas programme,as the animal lacks both power and stamina and needs careful breeding programme.EADS is willing to provide both breeding tech and the right fodder machine (EJ-200) to make the LCA filly go.The breeders also claim that this stallion can compare favourably with the king of the course,the Flanker SU-30 MKI in the IAF's stables.Running juast behind the leader,the SH.

Despite being expensive,The odds-on favourite at 2-1.

However,if the race gets too dirty and becomes a scandal,the organisers might disqualify the lot and instead return to acquiring more advanced versions of the Flanker and old favourites on steroids like the Jaguar,M-2000 and MIG-29,while waiting for the two young foals to arrive,the PAk-FA and the LCA.

See the post above.. Similarly we have lot of good posts in the beginning of this thread... I would encourage everyone to go through the thread, that will give us a lot of good topics to discuss..

Thanks in advance...

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 26 Sep 2009 03:41

I guess with the following developments
- India was asked to sign the NPT regime.
- US funds 3+ billion in US military aid to Pakistan

F-18 and F-16 are well and truly out of the race I presume!!!!!!

Raveen · Post by **Raveen** » 26 Sep 2009 03:42

Patrick Cusack wrote:I guess with the following developments
- India was asked to sign the NPT regime.
- US funds 3+ billion in US military aid to Pakistan

F-18 and F-16 are well and truly out of the race I presume!!!!!!

Let's try and discuss facts please, not assumptions, presumtions or the like

Patrick Cusack · Post by **Patrick Cusack** » 26 Sep 2009 04:11

I was not speculating the following
- India was asked to sign the NPT regime.
- US funds 3+ billion in US military aid to Pakistan

Raveen:
Are you implying that this will not impact F-18/F-16 choice? Impartiality for judge and jury makes sense - not when you are buying weapons to protect a country.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 26 Sep 2009 07:15

sumshyam wrote:
Baldev wrote: not necessarily just because Russia will have 50 more su30mki + 30 mig29k and there may be more mki ordered in future say in 2012.

and in future mki may carry these
http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/852/40 ... 0m750x.jpg
What is that...in Picture. I think it is some kinda bomb...but what kinda....!!!

thats the Russian variant of ALE 99 pod not bomb

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 26 Sep 2009 07:18

RameshC wrote:i doubt that we bought so many things like fighters from mig cpmany, we bought so many transports from Illyushin why would Boeing's chances be limited, IN is also interested in the v-22. apache will win the attack helo deal as well.

answer to your query about "Boeing" you asked already been given even before you raised this question

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 26 Sep 2009 07:20

Raveen wrote:
Patrick Cusack wrote:I guess with the following developments
- India was asked to sign the NPT regime.
- US funds 3+ billion in US military aid to Pakistan

F-18 and F-16 are well and truly out of the race I presume!!!!!!
Let's try and discuss facts please, not assumptions, presumtions or the like

discussing fact once again cheapest contender which meets RFP parameters going to win

abhi.enggr · Post by **abhi.enggr** » 26 Sep 2009 12:55

hi gurus
can anyone enlighten me on tv guided bombs specially in context of MIG-35 and rafale.
dear friend cain marko if you are browsing ......your reply on ground attack capability of mig-35 is still awaited my dear friend......

all you wise people i request you to give verdict on which a/c yuo choose and give reasons.......
consider technology,reliability in case of need (war) ,ToT,etc..

and everone i have been following every quote

no one seems to consider this fact that we will be looking for a plane which will serve us till 2040-2050 ..........
consoder any a/c in that perspective which sadly no one is doing............
and cain friend please you have always given valid replies please do reply

RameshC · Post by **RameshC** » 26 Sep 2009 13:43

mig-35

Air-to-air:
AA-10 Alamo: 4× R-27R, R-27T, R-27ER, R-27ET
AA-8 Aphid: 4× R-60M
AA-11 Archer: 8× R-73E, R-73M, R-74M
AA-12 Adder: 8× R-77

Air-to-surface:
AS-17 Krypton: 4× Kh-31A, Kh-31P
AS-14 Kedge: 4× Kh-29T, Kh-29L
AS-20: 4× Kh-59

Bombs Guided:
KAB-500L: 500 kg laser-guided bomb
KAB-500T: 500 kg TV-guided bomb

Unguided:
FAB-250: 250 kg bomb
FAB-500: 500 kg bomb
ZAB-500 fuel-air explosive Bomb

Rafale

http://img27.imageshack.us/img27/2393/R ... ptions.jpg

Eurofighter

http://www.armedforces-int.com/images/p ... eapons.jpg

Meteor, Asraam, Aim-120 C-7, Aim-9x, Iris-T, JDAM, Paveway, Stormshadow, Penguin, Taurus KEPD, Brimstone, ALARM, Maverick, JSOW?, Apache??

Super hornet

Aim-120C/D, Asraam, Aim-9x, Iris-T, JDAM, JDAM-ER, LJDAM, Paveway 1,2,3, Taurus KEPD, Harpoon , JSOW A/C, AAGRM, ALARM, Maverick, JASSM, JSOW-ER, SLAM, SLAM-ER, SDB 1,2, CBU-97/105 SFW, TALD (decoy cruise missile),

Gripen NG weapons

http://i41.tinypic.com/29pvtd4.jpg

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/2015 ... enents.jpg

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ima ... olm_lg.jpg

F-16IN

Aim-120 C/D, Aim-9x, Asraam ,Iris-T, mica, magic-2, Python 4/5, Derby, Meteor?, Harpoon, Penguin, AAGRM, JDAM, JDAM-ER, Havelite, Popeye-2, delilah, Paveways 1,2,3, Griffin guided bombs, MSOV, JSOW, JSOW-Er, JASSM, JASSM-Er, Maverick , AS-30L, Apache missiles, SDB 1/2, SLAM, SLAM-Er, TALD, Spice PGM,

RameshC · Post by **RameshC** » 26 Sep 2009 14:01

I am not sure if things like Spectra EW made in the US on the rafale can be replaced by any other EW suite, coz spectra is the most advanced EW suite on offer. Even if can be replaced by which one one and at what cost? If so we can always have the Spectra lets say on the Gripen, Sh or even the SV if changing it was so easy.

Gripen sure is good choice but if the US is not to be trusted at all and since when so many seem to think US is plotting to conspire against India, why go for it ?? Gripen certainly cant assure full-tot because of lots of US made crucial parts including the T/R modules on its AESA which are made by Raytheon. We obivously wont pay so much for a Rafale, Now why bother going even for the mig-35 since we plan to have Issy avionics and weapons on it?? But Issy is a staunch US ally(dog), we dont trust US allies, because they are all beggars of US support.

So lets not waste time going for any MRCA at all. Lets just sit here in our paranoia and look to build more missiles. How does it matter if we have an aircraft at all, right, i mean no weapons needed when all we can do is nuke enemy cities, why bother with such expensive deals?? We can go ahead and build more powerful cruise missiles with bigger warheads, longer range missiles so that in the event of war, we can simply turn entire Asia into spicy chicken tikka.

PrithviRajChauhan · Post by **PrithviRajChauhan** » 26 Sep 2009 15:31

You said that its infamous(EW suite on Rafale) and I replied if it is it can be replaced like what we are doing for LCA (not replacing but inducting a new EW,Mayawi). I am just talking about the possibility and the options we have. It has been assured by French that the Rafale they would be exporting to us would have zero US component ( See Jeannes post in this same forum earlier, he has provided the source as well). Again I am not against US stuff, I know its one of the best available in the market.

Regarding Gripen, in my opinion this was the bird that is very close to the original RFP. If you are following this thread and MRCA , then you must be knowing that initially IAF was very inclined towards inducting Mirage 2000 as it was reliable, low TCO, low turn around time and above average avionics. The same is true for Gripen which is better in all aspects then the Mirage 2000 which our AF loves so much. Please consider the cost factor also. If we are thinking of inducting single engine jet even then F16IN doesn't stand a chance against Gripen NG as it(f16) may have better avionics package and pay load but the Gripen new design and other benefits (data link, 500mt takeoff) negate all the benefits that F16 brings barring strategic. Also remember that USAF will retire F16 very soon but Sweden has plans for Gripen till 2030 -2040.
It is better to use a weapon over which we have full control rather buying (leasing in the case of US) something for which we need to take permission to use it.

Issy is apparently a very staunch ally of US, no doubt about that but there are instances where issy has provided much needed help with or without taking US into consideration. Mortar shells in 1971 and laser guided bombs in Kargil was good example of that. US can influence issy (also consider Issy influence as in the case of Green Pine Radar) but still there is a little difference when dealing with US directly and dealing with one of its allies. There are no permanent friends and permanent Enemies (if we keep TSP out of this), there are only permanent interests. There are many spheres where Issy and our interest converges and the relation that we have with issy is direct result of this.

We are building more missiles again there is no doubt about that but its not either this or that. Try to understand that the way Pakis are using their N nukes against India negating our conventional advantage atleast we have to try the same with the Chinks so that we can negate there numerical strength. It does not mean that I want to bulldoze all of China and Pak with our nukes. There is a reason that after WW2 there is not a single instance of using Nukes in any war. And the best defence against nuke is nuke itself. Thats what MAD is all about. For this we need a good TN device as well as good delivery system.

Lets not be so paranoid and cynical, we all are discussing what is best option available taking many things into consideration (in addition to the technology the deal brings in). Your and my opinion may differ but that is perfectly fine. Please remember that there are instances in the history (not so long back) when the US was clearly on our adversary side and even then we have won wars with our inferior stuff.

It would be very nice if we can get US stuff with minimum strings and if they understand our concerns regarding TSP. I understand if TSP has money they too can buy Rafale or Eurofighter but again there is a difference between giving stuff free of cost (when you know that the stuff would be used against us) and buying something.

Danell · Post by **Danell** » 26 Sep 2009 15:42

hello , i was watching this interesting board

About Thales and Spectra :
Thales Group is absolutely not US , its a worldwide french firm owned by Dassault (26%) and the french state (27%)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_Group
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_Spectra
btw the american Thales subsidiary (2300 people among 68000) is not the main Spectra designor

More about Spectra :

The Rafale also can rely on several other sensors:

* Spectra EW system, developed by Thales and MBDA, provides a multi-spectral threat warning capability against hostile radars, missiles and lasers. According to test pilots who have flown the Rafale, the EW system provides the aircraft with the highest survivability assets against airborne and ground threats to date. It also provides passive, 360-degree tactical situation awareness.

Considered a fully automatic self-protection system, Spectra provides passive, all-weather reliable, long-range detection, identification and geographical location of threats in the infrared, electromagnectic and electro-optical ranges. It uses short response times and cutting-edge defensive measures based on a combination of jamming, decoying and evasive maneuvers and technologies, such as Digital Radio Frequency Memory (DRFM) for signal processing.

The efficiency of Spectra notably was demonstrated in 2008 at the Red Flag exercise at Nellis Air Force Base, Nevada, where during all sorties the Rafale escaped SAM missile threats. This followed a successful demonstration at the NATO MACE electronic warfare campaign in Europe.

The angular localization performance of Spectra makes it possible to precisely discover ground threats and to target them for immediate destruction with precision-guided munitions. In this totally passive mode, Spectra is also used as a general awareness and intelligence reporting system.

Instrumental in the Spectra’s performance is a threat library that can be defined, integrated and updated on short notice by users in their own country, allowing agile and continuous enhancement of the aircraft’s protection as operations unfold. Being of modular design, the system is controlled by a dedicated computer with three processors.

http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/issue/c ... 32315.html

thank you for your attention

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 26 Sep 2009 16:07

As compared to the preceding versions of the MiG-29, the MiG-35 itself is a thoroughly transformed aircraft and richly deserves to be re-designated as such. Its striking feature, which sets it radically apart from all preceding versions, is its RD-33 MK all-axis, deflected thrust-vectoring (DTV) engines, which are even more capable than the ones that power the famed Sukhoi-30s.

Russia began serious developmental work on thrust vectoring during the 1980s. The Sukhoi and Saturn/Lyulka engine design bureaus led the way, and their efforts resulted in the Su-30 MKI aircraft, delivered to the Indian Air Force, being powered by the AL-31FP engines with two dimensional (up/down) nozzles that move 15Â°.

The MiG and Klimov engine bureaus began their work in the field of thrust vector engines a little later and aimed at all-aspect thrust vectoring, as opposed to Sukhoi/Saturn's two dimensional (horizontal/vertical) vectoring.

Their effort aimed at equipping their engines with nozzles that could move in any direction. Klimov achieved all-aspect vectoring with the aid of three hydraulic actuators that deflect the nozzles, and are mounted at 120Â° intervals around the engine nacelle. While Saturn's 2D system sees the nozzles move 15Â°, up and down, Klimov's 3-dimensional system has the nozzles moving 18Â° in all directions.

What all this translates into is that the aircraft can fly at very low speeds without angle-of-attack limitations, and that it will also remain controllable in zero-speed and 'negative-speed' (tail-forward) areas for sustained periods.

This is a phenomenon which previous Russian fighters could achieve only momentarily, as for example, during a tail-slide or with the Sukhoi-30's spectacular 'Cobra strike' manoeuvre. The enhanced vectoring engines provide pilots an ability to 'flip' the aircraft 'off-axis,' and thus 'point' a chasing missile away from the direction of flight.
http://www.domain-b.com/aero/mig_35.htm

That is a mig 35 if opted with 3D thrust vectoring - only aircraft flying today whcih can challenge the F-22 in an air battle to some extent and even superior to Su-30 MKI in matters of super agility - no other contender can even come anywhere near this capability in matter of low speed turn/climb capability .

( waiting for the usal flak from friends for my support to MIG 35 )
As per information available more than 125 wil fit into sanctioned 11-12 billion budget
it will come with complete range of air to air and air to ground weapons pre integrated
Russia will not tell us to sign NPT/CTBT

There is not much choice really -if we are realistic
and Russia do not tripple military aid to Pakistan every alternate year

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 26 Sep 2009 16:17

alit K Jha
Washington, May 6 : US wants India along with Pakistan, Israel and North Korea to join the Nuclear Non-Nonproliferation Treaty (NPT), a top Obama administration official has said.

"Universal adherence to the NPT itself - including by India, Israel, Pakistan and North Korea - remains a fundamental objective of the US," Rose Gottemoeller, Assistant Secretary of State said in her opening remarks at the Third Session of the Preparatory Committee for the 2010 NPT Review Conference being held at the UN headquarters in New York.

India, Pakistan, Israel and North Korea are not signatories to the NPT, which so far has been signed by as many as 189 countries.

However, later she praised India's willingness to proceed with a fissile material cut-off treaty in cooperation with the United States and its willingness to pursue the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (CTBT) as well as other lesser, but important measures such as improving its export control.

Talking to reporters after her participation in the meeting, Gottemoeller said the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal, along with several other steps taken by New Delhi in the recent past, has brought India closer to the NPT.

"So I would say that India is coming closer to the non-proliferation regime, and that too is an important goal of the US foreign policy," she said.
http://www.samaylive.com/news/us-wants- ... 24334.html

Are we again being duped by our government on CTBT-NPT-FMCT like in nuke deal .

Like we buy F-18 and then sign NPT -buy P-8 and then sign FMCT buy spares fro F-18/LCA engine sign CTBT -Bingo case closed for US

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 26 Sep 2009 16:20

New York: India, Pakistan, North Korea and Israel should join the nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), the global pact meant to limit the spread of atomic weapons, a senior US official said on Tuesday.

Speaking on the second day of a two-week meeting of the 189 signatories of the pact, Assistant Secretary of State Rose Gottemoeller also defended a US-India civilian nuclear deal, which developing nations have complained rewards New Delhi for staying outside the NPT.

“Universal adherence to the NPT itself, including by India, Israel, Pakistan and North Korea … remains a fundamental objective of the United States,” Gottemoeller told the meeting, which hopes to agree on an agenda and plan to overhaul the treaty at a review conference next year.

http://www.nhatky.in/india-pakistan-n-k ... s-12334670

and we still discuss whether we should buy 10 billion worth of US aircraft or us assist aircraft or from us associates -well we got the government we deserve

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 26 Sep 2009 16:23

Talking to reporters after her participation in the meeting, Gottemoeller said the Indo-US civilian nuclear deal, along with several other steps taken by New Delhi in the recent past, has brought India closer to the NPT. "So I would say that India is coming closer to the non-proliferation regime, and that too is an important goal of the US foreign policy," she said.

"I would say that with regard to India's agreement with the US on peaceful nuclear uses that the US has been able to agree with India to undertake a number of activities that would bring it in closure cooperation with other countries in the general non-proliferation regime," Gottemoeller said.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/us-ma ... pt/455343/

the true face of Indo-US nuclear deal -for you to judge whether we should consider buying US systems

BurhanGabaji · Post by **BurhanGabaji** » 26 Sep 2009 16:26

I standby with Shankar's choice of Mig 35 (with some promises like deliveries & quality). But it would be great to have the bid been divided between Mig & Super Hornets.

RameshC · Post by **RameshC** » 26 Sep 2009 16:31

well the Spectra EW suite was made in the US at Thales North America, its a subisdiary but still falls under US law, even Gripen talked about how they can offer full technology just like the French but i doubt how that will stand when Spectra isn't the only thing on the Rafale coming from the US. Even with 0 US components which i dont buy for one minute, the Rafale uses a lot of US weapons, going for EU weapons would increase the bill by atleast 60-70%, integration of Issy weapons on Rafale will take very long considering that the F-4 variant which we are interested in isn't ready yet. now considering SAAB holds to its promise of full tot, when SAAB with so many US compoanents can offer full-tot, i ask why not US giving full tot on their own aircraft. I certainly dont say go for US aircraft but if they offer full-tot, the SH is a good acquistion.

http://www.airframer.com/aircraft_detai ... ult_Rafale

Th mig-35 wont see the f-22 before its shot, by the way why do you want mig-35 to counter f-22, chances are they wont face eachother atleast not the MKI version of the mig-35. besides F-22 just has to put its thrust at 100% thrust without AB it will still out run most misiles, its capable of supercruise at well over mach 1.7, so the mig has no chance. First the mig cant see it, you cant shoot what you cant see, and possibly cant outrun a missile like Aim-120D launched at supersonic speeds at high altitude from a distance of over 140km. Actually the mig can barely survive an encounter with the SH, EF or Rafale or even Gripen NG, you want to bring the f-22?? c'mon even in this competiton, the SH , EF, Rafale can carry more A2A missiles than the mig, no self respecting pilot would want get into a furball with a mig, so he'll fire missiles till the mig is shot down. mig has too big an rcs to simply avoid missiles like Meteor, Aim-120C-7/D etc. Besides Ef, SH, Rafale, Gripen all have rcs of around 1m2 even with a nearly full load. mig's rcs with full load is around 2-3m2, he'll be spotted way before he spots any of the contenders. all that TVC wont matter when you have a couple of missiles on your tail, even if one misses, the second will kill the mig. Aircraft like SH can carry upto 12 Aim-120s and Rafale too can carry 10 A2A missiles. mig wont stand a chance. besides mig is late.

abhi.enggr · Post by **abhi.enggr** » 26 Sep 2009 17:06

Shankar wrote:
There is not much choice really -if we are realistic
and Russia do not tripple military aid to Pakistan every alternate year

hi shankar thanks a lot men
at last someone has given his verdict on which a/c he/she prefers.....
guys seriously we are here to discuss and to give our opinions on which a/s to choose ( my understanding )...........
my sincere request to do the same to others.........
my verdict is for rafale first choice
second choice mig-35..............
and other than this anyother a/c chosen will be crippled because when it coms to india-pakistan u and i know how us feels
and incase no one has heard us has indeed trippled the paki aid........interestingly a side clause of this aid is that in the so called fight against terror us is providing pak with f-16 c/d blocks with improved avionics......
i simply don't know why all of us feel that SH is very advanced since the only wars they have been tested are with iraq,kossevo,afghanistan where there were no opposition a/c..........
they have never actually been tested.......
think all you us plane lovers ............
and iam not a mig-35 supporter but their weapons have never failed anyone.........not india anyways....never

abhi.enggr · Post by **abhi.enggr** » 26 Sep 2009 17:18

hi since the us has tripled the aid to pakistan and is openly forcing india to sign npt then if we wnat to buy SH or f-16 should play hardball with them........
let's show them that we are not to be bullied by them........
and since they are lobbying the hardest for their planes to be sold to india then why not play according to our own rules........
iam still a staunch supporter of rafale.....
reasons:
this is the only operational plane scheduled to be the main force of french airforce and navy till 2050...........
they have both naval as well as ground version operational........
the best guided missiles and laser guided bombs,which according to me will be pivotal in any future fast paced coflict..........
the french have based their entire air strength on the rafale......a western superpower doing that even when they had options of f-35,eurofighter etc doing that is enough....for me atleast.....
also the french are not that allied towards anyone.........supplies after delievery are assured.......
they politically do not toe the us lines........
the dassult aviation is the consultants for LCA they can be very very helpfull in improving LCA with their own engines and with the sourcecodes that they have of rafale........
well ia heve counted factors other than tech and still it sounds to me reasonable.....
besides the us even if they say it are not trustworthy.....
surprisngly everyone has forgotten that we in the future will be countering against pakistan and china............
why are we worried about f-22 and not about f-16,j-10,su-30 mkk and j-11 si something i still ahven't understood.........

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 26 Sep 2009 17:22

Th mig-35 wont see the f-22 before its shot, by the way why do you want mig-35 to counter f-22, chances are they wont face eachother atleast not the MKI version of the mig-35. besides F-22 just has to put its thrust at 100% thrust without AB it will still out run most misiles, its capable of supercruise at well over mach 1.7, so the mig has no chance. First the mig cant see it, you cant shoot what you cant see, and possibly cant outrun a missile like Aim-120D launched at supersonic speeds at high altitude from a distance of over 140km. Actually the mig can barely survive an encounter with the SH, EF or Rafale or even Gripen NG, you want to bring the f-22?

To start with you do not evade a BVR or a WVR missile by flying at supersonic speed -you do it by abrupt change in direction and altitude so that the missile runs out of energy or breaks the lock .So ability to super cruise do not give you any advantage in an aerial combat -it only gets you to the combat scene faster -period

No aircraft is fully stealthy -f-22 is good and surely better than Mig 35 but do not assume MIG 35 will not have a stealth coat -it will have but not discussed ever

Super cruising burns fuel at an alarming rate though not as much as after burner operation and the acceleration with super cruise is nver as good as with after burner

In a daylight engagement if Mig 35 can with its thrust vectoring evade one amraam then it is already into WVR zone possibly visual zone and no one said F-22 is immune from advanced R 73 M2

In fact the stealth coat on Migs was demonstrated to IAF delegation long back when a proto type MIG 21 was demonstrated to have 1/100th radar cross section than a normal Mig 21 during Mig 21 upgrade trail in Russia

I am not saying Mig 35 is as good but it goes closest to F-22 than any other contender - and that makes it a sure winner .Anyway US is not offering us a F-22 even if we pay 300 million per piece .

abhi.enggr · Post by **abhi.enggr** » 26 Sep 2009 17:24

we should be looking at an option in mrca which is to counter future chinese and porkistani forces and not the usa.....
why are we countering f-22....
we should be lookingat mrca viewing jf-17,su-30mkk,j-10,j11,f-16 etc and not at f-22..........
we should compare with f-35 becuase even though i don't forsee our getting against it but then to be a global force it has to be countered.........
never compare any mrca aircraft with f-22........
we don;t need that.........look at what are threats against india ......china and pakistan
can't see anyother indian enemy as of now nor in future
and for f-22 india russian are jointly developing PAK FGPA and joint fifth generation a/c ..........
why worry about a a/c like f-22

please compare and give verdict bearibg in mind that we have to face chinese or pakistani threats............
if anyone can find any other serious challanger then please respond ........