MRCA News and Discussion

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Asit P
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Asit P » 11 Jan 2010 04:56

GeorgeWelch wrote:Fighters have to be continually upgraded if they are not to become obsolescent. Who will be funding all these upgrade programs?

Asit P wrote:Russia and India ofcourse.

GeorgeWelch wrote:Russia has purchased how many MiG-35s? Why would they pay ANYTHING for MiG-35 upgrades?
Russia will fund squat. Rather you will pay Russia through the nose to develop upgrades.


How many SU 30 MKIs did Russia buy? But aren't they getting upgraded? Why isn't Russia funding "squat" for its upgrade (as suggested by you).




Asit P wrote:Both the countries are already working on FGFA and there is no law that states technologies developed for FGFA cannot be incorporated in MIG 35.

GeorgeWelch wrote:The basic technology is never the problem, it's the integration and testing that is so costly. That's where it pays to have another party willing to foot the bill to do all the integration work.


Oh so you are trying to suggest that integration and testing of a radar or an engine (in an aircraft) is more costly than actually developing the radar or an engine!! Beats me completely !! Moreover, what gives you the impression that Russia will develop the "basic technology" and refuse to " foot the bill" (what ever that means) to integrate the same in Mig 35? Isn't it helping us integrate Brahmos in Sukhois which in most likelihood will not be used by them?




GeorgeWelch wrote:The US stockpiles MASSIVE amounts of spares for its fighters. If you get the SH, you can piggyback off its logistics support and guarantee availability of parts for decades to come.

Asit P wrote:The US also stockpiles massive amounts of sanctions which can be imposed at any point of time. Since you have already assumed the worst in case of MiG 35 (and you were very right in assuming so), let me now assume the worst for SH. What if some time in the future, USA imposes a sanction on India owing to changed international scenarios (as it has done in the past)? What will India do then?

GeorgeWelch wrote:The same thing they'll be forced to do if they select the MiG-35.
As I said, even in worst case scenario you will not be worse off than MiG-35 and the best case you will be significantly better off.


Absolutely wrong. Incase if Russia does not buy MIG 35 and decides to close its production line, then provisions can easily be made for manufacturing the spares of Mig 35 in India itself. Leveraging its rich experience of manufacturing the Russian birds, India will have no problems in manufacturing the spares of MIG 35. But if USA decides to impose sanctions on us, then we will have no alternatives. 126-200 of our birds will become hanger queens straight away.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 11 Jan 2010 11:57

How many SU 30 MKIs did Russia buy? But aren't they getting upgraded? Why isn't Russia funding "squat" for its upgrade (as suggested by you).


A lot of Su 30 MKI tech was already developed by Russia for the Su 35 (the older one). But we are funding the upgrades now, like the block 3 and the BARS upgrades including AESA in future.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nrshah » 11 Jan 2010 14:56

GeorgeWelch wrote:You're already getting Russia's best technology with FGFA/PAK-FA/whatever

What additional benefit could you possibly squeeze out of them from the lowly MiG-35 program


You know George this is the difference. We are getting best of Russian technology and Russians don't mind it. We are operating MKI which is one gen ahead of anything in Russian airforce. And what is the case with Americans? They will not give us technology of their soon to be retired aircrafts.

Even if USN uses SH till 2030, the fact is no fresh orders will be there. And recession or not you cannot retire the entire aircraft on a given day. So it is more of compulsion and less of discretion

GeorgeWelch wrote:The MiG-35 uses lots of off-the-shelf components and will run into the exact same problem because neither Russia nor India will stock a sufficient amount of spares.

The USN will stock a sufficient amount of spares to keep its SH fleet running for decades and then some. That is the difference you get.


So you assume Indians and Russians are fool not to stock sufficient spares. I never knew god gifted Basic sense only to USN... My bad...
Last edited by nrshah on 11 Jan 2010 15:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nrshah » 11 Jan 2010 14:59

[
GeorgeWelch wrote:Fighters have to be continually upgraded if they are not to become obsolescent. Who will be funding all these upgrade programs?


GeorgeWelch wrote:Russia has purchased how many MiG-35s? Why would they pay ANYTHING for MiG-35 upgrades?
Russia will fund squat. Rather you will pay Russia through the nose to develop upgrades.


So who funded the UAE's F 16? US ???

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 11 Jan 2010 15:13

UAE funded it because they wanted something that did not exist at the time. They weren't offered it but rather chose to develop it with their own cash. Now we are being offered a derivative of the same. UAE will not bother upgrading their Block 60s when the time comes they will replace them with F 35s like they are going to replace their Mirage fleet with Rafales.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby nrshah » 11 Jan 2010 15:33

exactly my point johnny,

In spite of having thousands f 16 which will continue till 2030, US did not funded the program for two reason:

1 - asked by customer and not offered as you said
2 - the upgrade was not required by them as they will be replacing them with f 35.

Now what makes us think that US will fund f 18/16 upgrade program when it is certain they will replace all of them. Not to mention, when Indian F/18/16 will be due (If gets selected) for up gradation, US f 18/16 will be in last phase of their life, all being scheduled to be retired in next 4/5 years

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jean_M » 11 Jan 2010 19:17

GeorgeWelch wrote:
You know why the Rafale no longer comes with OSF? The electronic parts it uses were obsolete and discontinued. France didn't have the foresight to buy more when they had the opportunity. There's a lesson in that.


Have you ever heard of OSF-IT and OSF-NG ? I've thoroughly explained why we have been waiting them: we were (and are still) waiting for announced technological breakthroughs, particularly in the IR field. That's why OSF-IT (scheduled for 2012) won't have any IR channel but an near IR optical cam. We expect to jump one generation here and I bet that'll come handy against stealthy threats.

On another note, when uttering discourteous comments on one's foresighting abilities, please make sure you have sufficient basic eyesight to read what's openly available on the forum. (which by the way answer your statements and contradict them). Thank you in advance. I'll be at your disposal whenever you'd want to have a well documented and argumented discussion on that topic.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 11 Jan 2010 19:23

What you said is true. But it also applies to other aircraft in the competition namely the MIG 35 and Gripen NG.

1. The MIG is not going to be procured by Russia in significant numbers and they always have prioritized upgradation of their Su 27/25 MiG 31 models than the normal flanker. It is likely to continue that way even if they procure MiG 35 i.e they will keep their Su 35/Pak FA fleet upgraded. So even in the best case scenario of the Russians buying the MiG 35 we will probably have to pay for the upgrades.

2. The Gripen NG is not going to be procured in any significant numbers by Sweden either (the max I heard was 15!). They have a lot of C/Ds as well as A/Bs which when necessary will be done a MLU than going for new Airframes. Sweden being a small country do not have a requirement for a lot of aircraft.

3. The SuperHornet will be supported till 2030 (current estimate) you can add years to it if the F 35 C programme is delayed (every chance of it). The USN will not operate an outdated kit and you can be rest assured that their will be a Block III or even Block IV upgrade which can easily be assimilated by India.

4. Now the Rafale and Eurofighter have solid commitment by its home countries so they are likely to have an upgrade path which India doesn't have to pay for. But how significant is this argument cost-wise ? Let us look at the case of the Indian Mirage 2000s. The 2000-5 upgrade the IAF is seeking is already there it has been done to French and UAE Mirages and still they are asking nearly 34 million per plane (down from 40). How much will upgrading the Rafale cost at a future date ? even given that the French already paid for the development of subsystems involved.

:eek:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby saptarishi » 11 Jan 2010 21:00

http://defensenews.com/blogs/dubai-air- ... des-egypt/

old news of nov 2009 but significant


Lockheed sees potential sales of 100 to 200 F-16s around the world until the F-35 becomes available for export. That market estimate excludes the Indian competition for 126 fighters. As part of the Indian tender process, Indian officials will be invited to the U.S. to see live weapons firing by the F-16 at a number of sites in the last week of January and first week of February.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 11 Jan 2010 21:05

My argument that cost-wise The Rafale and Typhoon are not realistic options is proven again.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpo ... tcount=241

originally posted by arthuro in Keypubs its a translation of a brazilian article on cost of FX2 procurement it says

FIGHTING Factory Dassault: 36 fighters would cost $ 10 billion

The competition for the purchase of 36 fighter jets by the FAB, estimated at $ 10 billion, seems an endless novel. In the latest chapter, the Defense Minister Nelson Jobim announced further postponement in the selection of fighters, this time to January 2010. It said the reasons for and command of the FAB remain silent so as not to break the hierarchy. The cost of this uncertainty is enormous, because it affects not only the credibility of the negotiations and delay the defense plans of the country, which sees its airspace vulnerable. "You can not stay in this litany. Whether the political criterion, either by coach, you need to resolve them, "said retired Colonel Geraldo Cavagnari, the Center for Strategic Studies at Unicamp. He explains that, once decided to purchase, will run six months until the contract is signed. For the analyst of international security Gunther Rudzītis is necessary to prevent a repeat of the failure of the FX program, held over the last year of the Cardoso government, and finally canceled in 2003. Brazil is in urgent need of a generation of fighter aircraft to ensure the safety of the heavens and their wealth in the territorial sea. ISTOÉ obtained confidential details of the offers of the finalists: the French Rafale from Dassault, the American F-18 Super Hornet, Boeing, and the Swedish Gripen NG, the Saab.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby neeraj » 11 Jan 2010 21:36

johnny_m wrote:My argument that cost-wise The Rafale and Typhoon are not realistic options is proven again.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpo ... tcount=241

originally posted by arthuro in Keypubs its a translation of a brazilian article on cost of FX2 procurement it says

FIGHTING Factory Dassault: 36 fighters would cost $ 10 billion



Assuming this to be true that works out to be approx $277 million per AC. Even if you include support, spares, weapons package and technology transfer its a ridiculous price to pay.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 11 Jan 2010 21:45

johnny_m wrote:
SaiK wrote:Didn't we hear that cancellation of airbus order for air refuelers by fin min. They would just go by the cheapest in the list.

Unless, the political setup has it mentioned very clear in the RFI/RFP about cost and the selection process criteria, we have to pretty much go by what has happened.

The cheaper of the top three? is what appears to be the more realistic winner. Watch out for Gripen.


Exactly my thoughts, however in some interviews Boeing cheifs have maintained that the SH price is comparable to that of the Single engined fighters in the MRCA. The Brazilian leak is a bit contradictory to that, may be he is talking about flyaway cost/unit.

The Gripen IN will do well I think especially when meteor is integrated. Low RCS/ Wide Scan AESA + Meteor looks like a winning combo for me.


The Babus do have any logic.

Or rather they have only one logic, to fill their own and their minister's (NOT ministry's) coffers. They may reject the A 330 MRTT on cost grounds but they will easily justify some other product, in some other tender, on Life Cycle Costs, Total Operating Costs, Total Ownership Costs etc. They are only pleasing their political boss, armed forces (and the country) can go to Hell.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 11 Jan 2010 22:01

I personally think that USA has THE BEST TECHNOLOGY is very many fields in defence equipment and even otherwise.

But sanctions I something against which we have to guard ourselves very carefully. It is impossible to know when USA may impose sanctions and for what reason. We can only go by the past track record. And the past track record of USA is not very good. Let us not quibble about what is small and large offence.

Let us get back to history (I hated it in school). USA has brought down the government of, Honduras / Guatamela I think, because they raised the price of exports of bananas to USA !!

Finally it boils down to the whim and fancy of the US President or one of THE top brass. Bill Clinton, George Bush were fond of India so we are having a rather cozy relations. Richard Nixon... well less said the better. If Obama is going to be in WH for say another 7 years, the Indo US relations will be solely in his hands.

As suggested earlier let us buy some non "super critical" items for US and see how they behave with us. That is one of the reasons I am not for F 16 or F 18, though I think that F 16 MAY be the best aircraft for IAF for MRCA requirement.

Kersi

PS I have heard enough argument for/against F 16 and F 18, NO MORE PLEASE

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Asit P » 12 Jan 2010 02:34

johnny_m wrote:A lot of Su 30 MKI tech was already developed by Russia for the Su 35 (the older one). But we are funding the upgrades now, like the block 3 and the BARS upgrades including AESA in future.


Any link to support your claim that India is/will be funding the AESA upgrades of SU 30 MKI?

Moreover, as far as the tech of Su 35 being incorporated in MKIs is concerned, thats the way how many fighters are upgraded. For example when PAKFA comes up, many of the technologies used in it will get incorporated in SU 30 MKI and the same can happen for MIG 35 as well.

The point is - Russia has not purchased a single MKI, yet that is not hindering the upgrades of MKIs in any way. Similarly even if Russia does not buy a single MIG 35, there are ways in which it can be upgraded in future. Since this bird has an open architecture, so it can also be upgraded with French or Israeli components. 10-15 years down the line, even DRDO would have enough expertise to make a valuable contribution towards its upgrade. Zhuk radar of the MIG 35 has enough upgrade potential, so if India buys MIG 35, there is no reason why Phazorton would not want to upgrade it (which radar manufacturing company would want to miss out on the opportunity of upgrading 126-200 radars)? If reports in the media are to be believed then the Russian navy will buy MIG 29 K to replace SU 33. If that happens, then Russia will have one more reason to focus on the upgradation of MIG 35.

In other words even if Russia does not buy a single MIG 35, the upgrade of this bird is not doomed (as it has been predicted by our friend - Georgewelch).

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HAL & UAC developing smart skin & AESA for Su-30MKI

Postby shukla » 12 Jan 2010 06:01

Su-30MKI to go stealthy

Posted: 08 Jul 2009 06:06 AM PDT
http://feedproxy.google.com/~r/DefenceA ... althy.html


After the F-15 Silent eagle its time for Su-30MKI to disapear out of the
radar. There have been reports that Russias UAC (United Aircraft
Corporation) and Indias HAL (Hindustan Aeronotics Limited) are developing
the Smart Skin concept for Su-30MKI.

Smart skin also know as Artificial neural membrane refers to a new class of
functional structure developed through research adaptive and evolutionary
neural networks and programmable materials. The greatest interest in ANM
structures surround their potential as open architecture environments for
the integration of microscale and nanoscale devices. Artificial neural
membrane technology development has been funded by the NASA Institute for
Advanced Concepts, for application to quasi-steady state flapping wing
flight. Currently Aerospace Research Systems, Inc. the agency that
pioneered work in developing artificial neurons for use in control of
multifunctional smart structures is applying the technology to reusable
launch vehicles. Other applications include biotechnology processes,
morphing aircraft and spacecraft, adaptive wind generators, and artificial
organs. Recent research also indicates that ANM systems may provide the
first truly automated intentional or conceptual programming environment.

By 2014, UAC together with HAL will begin upgrading the first 100 IAF
Su-30MKIs by modifying their airframes to make them stealthy, converting
the existing Bars into an active phased-array radar, enhancing the
situational awareness by incorporating active electronically scanned
transmit/receive arrays on the aircrafts wings and pumping up the
defensive-aids suite by installing a combined radar/laser warning system
and a missile approach warning system.



Source: FORCE INDIA

Force Magazine reports in the latest issue:-

1.) Su-30 MKI to undergo mid-life upgrade starting 2014
2.) Bars radar to be upgraded with AESA antenna
3.) active skin - AESA T/R modules to be mounted in wing sections to provide > 180 deg FoV
4.) Al-31FP engines to be uprated by 20% with operating life increased to 6k hrs
5.) Conformal weapons station between engine pods for stealth (carries a prototype photo too!)

And come 2014, UAC, together with Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd (HAL) will begin upgrading the first 100 IAF Su-30MKIs by modifying their airframes to make them stealthy, converting the existing Bars into an active phased-array radar, enhancing the situational awareness by incorporating active electronically scanned transmit/receive arrays on the aircrafts wings, and beefing up the defensive-aids suite by installing a combined radar/laser warning system and a missile approach warning system. Tikhomirov-NIIP had by last November begun laboratory-level tests of a Bars, which was fitted with an AESA array made up of X-band transmit/receive modules built by Istok JSC.

Since then, another two Bars radars have been modified as part of the R&D phase, which will last until 2012, and will be followed by flight qualification a year later. Incidentally, Tikhomirov-NIIP has also developed the Irbis-E passive phased-array radar for the Su-35BM and will soon begin work on modifying the Irbis-E into an active phased-array radar, which will go on board the Fifth Generation Fighter Aircraft (FGFA) that will be co-developed by UAC and HAL. In addition, both UAC and Tikhomirov-NIIP have come together to develop the smart skin concept under which an AESA arrays transmit/receive modules can be placed anywhere on board the Su-30MKI to generate the relevant radiation field required for achieving more than 180-degree field-of-view. Su-30MKI to go stealthy

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 12 Jan 2010 07:14

What I don't get it is why should NASA fund something being done by HAL and Sukhoi folks?

:oops:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby sumshyam » 12 Jan 2010 08:32

SaiK wrote:What I don't get it is why should NASA fund something being done by HAL and Sukhoi folks?


Perhaps he wanted to say that NASA funded the same development through Aerospace Research Systems, Inc (ARSI) and HAL and Russia is doing it now...!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby milindc » 12 Jan 2010 09:22

SaiK wrote:What I don't get it is why should NASA fund something being done by HAL and Sukhoi folks?

:oops:

B'cos chor gupta forgot to remove word NASA from the cut&paste. :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby rachit » 12 Jan 2010 10:51

[quote="nrshah"][quote="GeorgeWelch"]
Even if USN uses SH till 2030, the fact is no fresh orders will be there. And recession or not you cannot retire the entire aircraft on a given day. So it is more of compulsion and less of discretion

I wouldn't call it a 'fact' that there will be no more orders for the SH. The development of the JSF plays a big role in deciding that aspect. With the JSF being touted to replace the ageing legacy Hornets (and NOT the current SH, as I have seen mentioned quite often in this forum), any further delays in the JSF program could lead to more USN orders for the SH in addition to the 450 odd they have already ordered. Moreover, the SH is still in the running in the on-going Brazilian, Greek, Indian, and Danish tender....so yea, i think there are chances that greater numbers of the SH will be on order sometime in the coming years.

Moreover, the USN's comfort level of eventually operating high numbers of SH's along with the JSF gives us more than enough credibility to ensure that future upgrades on the SH will be on the cards, and with potential Indian funding to add to that, can be beneficial to both, the IAF and the USN.

If anything, i dont see any more orders for the MiG 35 and Gripen!! Even the Rafale numbers at the moment are capped to the 180 odd ordered for the French AF and Navy, and given the situation there with the budgets and everything, combined with the relatively sky-rocketed price of the Rafale, its likely that there will be no future orders for the Rafale as well, with even the Brazilian tender not finalized as yet!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 12 Jan 2010 12:13

I think SH is not so hot design for future wars. Euro the Raf has lot of potential to improve and will have longer span. French or EU (and Russian) product support is more reliable than US any day. So let us not go for designs of 1970’s and 1980’s when 2000 design is available now. On the same count Mig35 can not be taken as a serious compitator.

One thought why not Mki of Su35. Form all I hear it is also a great fighter.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 12 Jan 2010 19:26

Those who think that the USA is a-ready-and-a-willing to sell us its latest tech,dream on.If he US is so unwilling even to share JSF tech with its poodle,the UK,leading to much heartburn between the "cousins,imagine what pain-in-the-butt India (as described by US analysts) will get! India is not even ranked on the same scale as Pakistan,a "non-NATO ally".Therefore,unless we abdicate our entire foreign and defence policy and subjugate ourselves to Uncle Sam,by singing on every kind of agreement that the US wants-in other words becoming US catamites or "converts", in every sense of the word,we will be at the receiving end of sanctions,irritants,delays,etc.At the same time,Pakistan will also be provided with enhanced weaponry to deal with India! So if we get F-18Shs,don't think that the US will not sell Pak F-15 Super-Eagles or even the JSF at later date to please its faourite rent-boy for performing tricks on the Af-Pak frontier.

This is the political price that the GOI should carefully think about before considering buying major US weapon systems which are force multipliers.Buying a few transports,etc. is enough to keep the hungry US manufacturers happy,provided that they are cost-effective.The Hercules is an excellent medium transport-the best,but I'm not so sure about the C-17s.WE do not need so many of them unless we plan to invade Oz!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 12 Jan 2010 21:00

johnny_m wrote:What you said is true. But it also applies to other aircraft in the competition namely the MIG 35 and Gripen NG.

Now the Rafale and Eurofighter have solid commitment by its home countries so they are likely to have an upgrade path which India doesn't have to pay for.

:eek:


SOME HOPE !!

I am sure the Brits and French will make us apy thru the nose for all the updates. We were supposed to have paid extra charges for just REMOVING the in-flight refuelling probes from the Jaguars, at that too teh original lot. In way is UK helping us in upgrading the Jaguars.

I think the French wants to discourage us form upgrading our Mirage 2000 so we buy more (Rafales)

K

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Katare » 13 Jan 2010 02:40

Philip wrote:Those who think that the USA is a-ready-and-a-willing to sell us its latest tech,dream on.If he US is so unwilling even to share JSF tech with its poodle,the UK,leading to much heartburn between the "cousins,imagine what pain-in-the-butt India (as described by US analysts) will get! India is not even ranked on the same scale as Pakistan,a "non-NATO ally".Therefore,unless we abdicate our entire foreign and defence policy and subjugate ourselves to Uncle Sam,by singing on every kind of agreement that the US wants-in other words becoming US catamites or "converts", in every sense of the word,we will be at the receiving end of sanctions,irritants,delays,etc.At the same time,Pakistan will also be provided with enhanced weaponry to deal with India! So if we get F-18Shs,don't think that the US will not sell Pak F-15 Super-Eagles or even the JSF at later date to please its faourite rent-boy for performing tricks on the Af-Pak frontier.

This is the political price that the GOI should carefully think about before considering buying major US weapon systems which are force multipliers.Buying a few transports,etc. is enough to keep the hungry US manufacturers happy,provided that they are cost-effective.The Hercules is an excellent medium transport-the best,but I'm not so sure about the C-17s.WE do not need so many of them unless we plan to invade Oz!


:rotfl:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Asit P » 13 Jan 2010 02:50

Lockheed Martin offers F 35 to Indian Navy
http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/unc ... 02791.html
The US has offered to India yet another sophisticated defence system, this time its fifth generation F-35 Lightning-II fighter aircraft. The “possible sale” of this aircraft, which is still under development, was mentioned in the past “if the Indian Air Force (IAF) purchased the F 16 Super Viper for its Medium Multi Role Combat Aircraft (M-MRCA) requirement.”

But according to a report in the coming issue of India Strategic defence magazine, Lockheed Martin, which manufactures these both aircraft, has now made a presentation without this condition to the Indian Navy for its carrier-borne aircraft requirements in about seven to eight years from now.


Interesting development.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 13 Jan 2010 03:11

Looks like at this rate, we plan to fly everything under the sun that is not Chinese or Paki.

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Too late for F-35.... Or just in time?

Postby shukla » 13 Jan 2010 04:47

Maybe its too late for Lockheed to offer the F-35 as India might consider going with the manufacturer winning the MMRCA... Also, India IAC's would be operational way before operational Naval F-35's come on the scene!!

Or is it just in time to tempt India to go for the F-16's for IAF and F-35's in the Navy??

I still think super bugs the best bet for both forms as it has proven Naval backgound... or the Rafale!

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 13 Jan 2010 05:48

JSF F35b VTOL or STOL could come without preconditions now, but definitely not available on FGFA terms.. IN should go for it without any strings attached in terms of its use, and most importantly get weapons coming along with JSF be able to fired from other A/cs IAF has, at least from Tejas. If this can happen, then its a deal!., while IN advances ahead, DRDO labs can work on the FGFA keeping JSF as a lookup to its minimum baseline performance and specs or better. A reference is always a shot in the arm for DRDO. Of course, IN/IAF should set aside the required monies before venturing in to JSF.

JSF/vtol is not a bad idea for IN. harriers gets a deadly elder bro now.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 13 Jan 2010 07:47

US offers F-35 for Indian Navy


But according to a report in the coming issue of India Strategic defence magazine, Lockheed Martin, which manufactures these both aircraft, has now made a presentation without this condition to the Indian Navy for its carrier-borne aircraft requirements in about seven to eight years from now.


http://idrw.org/?p=101#more-101

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 13 Jan 2010 12:12

:eek:

When the IN floated out the RFI I always knew it was to test the F 35 waters. LM are being very wise offering the F 35, contrary to people here think I think it will be the C-Conventional Take Off variant than the STOVL B that will interest the IN because its most likely for IAC 2 which will have CATS/EMALS.

Lockheed offering the F 35 is also likely to change the MRCA dynamics. F 16 IN is hot again folks :).

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby kit » 13 Jan 2010 12:24

johnny_m wrote::eek:

When the IN floated out the RFI I always knew it was to test the F 35 waters. LM are being very wise offering the F 35, contrary to people here think I think it will be the C-Conventional Take Off variant than the STOVL B that will interest the IN because its most likely for IAC 2 which will have CATS/EMALS.

Lockheed offering the F 35 is also likely to change the MRCA dynamics. F 16 IN is hot again folks :).


Nope.Status quo is the same.But picture still not clear.US offering tot for the F35 ? Dont think so !

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Klaus » 13 Jan 2010 12:43

JSF and F-16 IN is just "carrot and donkey" tactics by US. Just to put us in an unfavorable situation in the future. If there is one piece of "real" strategic value that the IN should be interested in, it should be the acquisition of Diego Garcia!

Ppl, I know that Diego is Brit property leased to the US but it is still in our best interests to acquire it. Best counter to "String of Pearls" IMHO :twisted:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Singha » 13 Jan 2010 12:58

F-16IN chances went down once the Rus announced that FGPA tech demo is nearing completion + the big new AL41 engine. FGPA being the f22ski should be able to deal with anything the pakis/chinis are likely to get or produce.

I see F-18 > F-16IN in chances now.

but we might decide to go eurofighter to indicate displeasure at the obama admin's various backtracking on
ties built during bush admin.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby jai » 13 Jan 2010 13:14

I am wondering why is the IN not immediately getting more Harriers from USN / USMC or RN on a FMS/Govt to Govt deal - considering that IN have only 4 working harriers as of now...we have an AC - Virat ..that's operational finally after years, but it has no planes to fly from it !!

IMHO Indian defence ministry seem more keen on next and next to next generation equipement that's mostly on paper right now instead of quickly plugging operational gaps with functional best in class - and available equipment right now....Army's AD, Arty, Armoured modernization plans being a case in point. Its time that all budgetary spending is passed on to respective service chiefs to purchase what their services need - with autonomy on equipment selection and induction - to prevent the billions shown on paper as defence investment going back unutilized. Time also to de - politicize defence procurement - services shd get what they need without any political considerations on which country they should be sourcing from.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 13 Jan 2010 13:46

A glimmer of light,perhaps the ray at the "end of the tunnel" could be gleaned from the "F" mags latest issue.In a moan about the inadequacies of after sales support for Russian eqpt. and the tortuous MMRCA contest,the author of the piece said that the IAF should've simply ordered more Mirages instead of launching this bizarre(my words) contest involvng so many different aircraft.The "ray" of light was a statement in the piece that the GOI apparently earlier asked the IAF whether they could split the deal with "100 for the Russians and 100 for the US" to keep both sides happy.The IAF is reported to have declined,but has left it to the GOI for a final decision.The author says that this might be the case if we want to ensure a western aircraft and tech along with the large inventory/cooperation existing with the Russians.

If this is the thinking of the GOI,then the news of the planned massive C-17 acquisition could be a signal that this is the payoff to the US and the acquisition could be halved with some MIG-35s (perhaps 60-80) being added to the existing inventory of MIG-29s being upgraded for commonality,ease of induction,etc.,making up declining numbers cost-effectively and a European aircraft for the rest (120+).The risk of acquiring US combat aircraft could be just too great for the GOI/MOD especially as to obtain top line eqpt. like AESA radars etc.we will have to sign on the dotted line where the US has indicated ,the Commns and Logistics agreements.This would reduce us to the status of "vassal state" which would be unacceptable even to a large number of Congress partymen.Thus awarding substantial defence orders to the US ike P-8Is,Hercules transports (more being planned),C-17s,obtaining non-critical weapon systems which would place us in an acute situation should sanctions be imposed,will keep the US not entirely but reasonably happy.It will also reassure the Russians,who are providing us with our most vital defence eqpt. (missiles,ATV tech and Akula SSGNs) that the US is not going to replace them as India's closest defence partner.The Europeans too will be very happy as either the Rafale (moving upwards in the stakes with Brazil and the UAE tilting in its direction) or the Typhoon-making a strong pitch with the TVC EJ engine both for the MMRCA and the LCA,look likely to carry away the largest share of the cake.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Brando » 13 Jan 2010 14:45

It makes no sense to go for Russian AND American aircraft. It would only end up being more costly to maintain and train. Not to mention that by sitting on the fence neither side would be placated fully. The best would be to go for the European option of Typhoon as it is widely deployed and well funded program.

The fascination with the JSF is not really warranted. Granted its stealth and VTOL capabilities are impressive but it can never carry the weapons load as a SH or be as good at close air support as the SH can be. Not to mention the price tag. In a prolonged all out war, the force wielding the JSF would be severely compromised.

With a choice of the MRCA, the Sukhois, the LCA and the PAK-FA to be added later on, the IAF would be well placed and have ample choice of platforms at its disposal.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby johnny_m » 13 Jan 2010 15:01

Philip, the article you mentioned also favours a US MRCA in many ways. That the planes should win on merit alone. They seem to be rooting for the Super Hornet. The Magazine also has an article wrt to the Apache and Chinook, written by a Boeing guy :roll:. I think it will be an American MRCA at the end of the day even though Gripen is the better choice.

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Noise pollution..a factor in procurement?

Postby shukla » 13 Jan 2010 19:06

Eurofighter too noisy for Swiss skies??

I believe this is certainly will not be (and it shouldn't be either) a factor in the Indian competition.. but the Swiss competition has brought out an interesting (and rather irrelevant point in the Indian competition) point, though the difference in the average noise produced between the competitors Eurofighter (110db), Rafale (108db) & Gripen (105db). The difference represents a doubling of the noise footprint, the Swiss say.

I wonder how big a factor that might turn out in the Swiss competition (if at all). Well too bad for the EF if it does.. Not sure how much the F's make?

For all the all the minute , check the link..

http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/generic/ ... In%20Doubt

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby prabir » 13 Jan 2010 22:04

johnny_m wrote:Philip, the article you mentioned also favours a US MRCA in many ways. That the planes should win on merit alone. They seem to be rooting for the Super Hornet. The Magazine also has an article wrt to the Apache and Chinook, written by a Boeing guy :roll:. I think it will be an American MRCA at the end of the day even though Gripen is the better choice.


Problem with US aircraft is that politics will get mixed up with business. It is a business deal, where we would expect the supplier to play by rules of business. US just does not satisfy this condition. It is ok to buy non-lethal stuff, but for lethal stuff it is best to go with a mix of European and Russian manufactures.

Also, US tends to intrude and influence the working of customers. We will very well off by not allowing US to "interact" with our defence personnel.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby ShauryaT » 13 Jan 2010 22:13

Klaus wrote:Ppl, I know that Diego is Brit property leased to the US but it is still in our best interests to acquire it. Best counter to "String of Pearls" IMHO :twisted:
Slight correction. It is a property acquired by the British from Mauritius under shady conditions, resulting in the forcible evacuation of its residents.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby abhijitm » 13 Jan 2010 23:35

Singha wrote:F-16IN chances went down once the Rus announced that FGPA tech demo is nearing completion + the big new AL41 engine. FGPA being the f22ski should be able to deal with anything the pakis/chinis are likely to get or produce.

I see F-18 > F-16IN in chances now.

but we might decide to go eurofighter to indicate displeasure at the obama admin's various backtracking on
ties built during bush admin.


Boeing has already bagged a lot and LM is now singing F-35 for navy. So if THAT is the case then its a bye bye for the US to MRCA.


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