MRCA News and Discussion

Vishnu · Post by **Vishnu** » 29 Oct 2009 19:35

Agree completely ... reporting this entire thing is a huge challenge ... and being non-prejudiced is critical. All I can say is that I have a personal favourite in this MMRCA race ... and I would love to get into the debate on why that jet is better than the rest ... but thats a temptation I am avoiding ... I am neither an engineer nor a pilot ... and, quite frankly, as an enthusiast, I am not qualified to lend an informed opinion ... All I can do is explain what I have seen and been told ... but, as I see it, there has not yet been any significant bias by anyone in reporting the MMRCA because of a vested interest ?

Cheers
Vishnu

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 29 Oct 2009 19:38

Thanks Vishnu for putting this up ....

The proposed GE F414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) for India offers a 20 per cent increase in thrust and a 1 per cent reduction in fuel burn. The F414 is itself in the 22,000 lb thrust class, 170 lb/second airflow.

Just wondering if "GE F414 EPE" is being evaluated for LCA !! In that case the afterburner thrust would be around 118 KN .... and I am sure that will permanently resolve the thrust issue of LCA ... even for the future requirement.

The question is how much extra effort it would be required to replace GE404 ....

Any idea !!!

Thanks,
-Sanjib

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Oct 2009 19:57

Very good Vishnu!~ we need you that way.. and at the same, interestingly bring out the best info for us.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Oct 2009 21:49

Thanks for your excellent post, Vishnu. I wasn't aware that GE was offering the EPE version of the F-414, since they are looking for a launch customer to fund development. Does this mean that they will ask the IAF to fund the development or will it be internally funded ? Anyway, this is a good since the F-414 EPE will resolve future weight growth due to any added on avionics and the additional performance improvement will always be welcome. And if the F414 is chosen for the Tejas, it’s a 20% growth in thrust that will work great for it. I was also wondering about the fact that the regular Super Hornet is restricted to 7.6Gs and that seemed really low for the MRCA requirement, considering all other fighters are a minimum of 9G/-3G fighters. that they're going to simply modify the FCS to allow 9G flight was never mentioned before, but that was probably an absolute minimum requirement for the IAF as part of its initial requirements. BTW, the Super Hornet achieved its highest recorded speed of Mach 1.84 somewhere close to Bangalore during flight trials. this was the internal Boeing article

A Boeing-leased U.S. Navy F/A-18F set a new Super Hornet speed record in Bangalore Monday, during the opening day of flight evaluations in India’s highly coveted 126 aircraft Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) competition.

The Super Hornet, flown by Boeing F/A-18 pilot Mike "Sting" Wallace and Weapons Systems Officer U.S. Navy Lt. Cmdr. Michael "Spock" Chenoweth of VFA 122, hit a speed of 1.84 Mach, shattering the previous record of 1.76 Mach.

"Up in the control tower, they were looking (at the radar screens) in disbelief as it was happening," said Bret Marks, the F/A-18 program manager for India. "We were confident that when we got here we’d impress the Indian Air Force with the capabilities of the Super Hornet and setting a new speed record with the first flight set the stage."

Boeing Tech Fellow, Mike Heller, who persuaded the team it was possible, said India provided a rare chance to do a speed run.

"The engines perform best in the coldest air," said Heller. "And the air is coldest at 50,000 feet nearest the equator."

Besides Boeing, the other contenders are Lockheed Martin (F-16), EADS (Eurofighter), Saab (Gripen), Dassault (Rafale) and Mikoyan (MIG-35).

Boeing will wrap up its India based phase of the flight trials on August 28 after flying in hot desert conditions in Jaisalmer and the cold high altitude environment of the Himalayas.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 29 Oct 2009 21:53

And regarding the Jaisalmer leg of the trials this was a Boeing release. There is also confirmation of the February date for the Super Hornet trials in the US.

The F/A-18 Super Hornet continued its impressive Indian flight trials with another noteworthy performance, this time over the desert sands of Rajasthan.

On Wednesday, the Super Hornet impressed the Indian Air Force with the extreme accuracy of a medium altitude bomb drop near its Jaisalmer air base.

"The highest of the four drops was performed from a 13,000 foot level release with an unguided warhead with no inertial guidance system. The inert Mk-83 landed within 15 yards of the intended target, demonstrating the accuracy of the Super Hornet’s auto-release weapons systems," said Boeing pilot, Elliott "Hemo" Clemence, who had an Indian evaluation pilot watching from his cockpit’s back seat.

Live weapons testing, another crucial element in the rigorous Indian fighter competition won’t come until the third and final evaluation phase in the U.S. in February.

The Indian evaluation team also studied the Super Hornet’s ability to withstand the desert base’s 100F (38C) degree daytime temperatures. One F/A-18F jet was set out to bake in the blazing noon sun so that a record could be taken of the cockpit temperature as a gauge to pilot comfort and avionics cooling in the searing desert conditions.

arya · Post by **arya** » 29 Oct 2009 22:06

SaiK wrote:yeh yeh!~... that leaves EF2K in a different league. b+
http://www.eurofighter.com/medialibrary ... diaID=8050

but looking awsome

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Oct 2009 22:36

As far as the transfer of source codes for AESA is concerned ... they are still at the "Can't discuss in an open forum ... lets see how this plays out" mode.

THAT is a quantum leap.

(Waiting for the other shoe to drop - the embedded stuff.)

At the same time, the fact that India has agreed to the US end user agreement during Hillary Clinton's visit here means that the full up Super Hornet IN ... inclusive of the upgraded GE F-414 engine, the APG 79 AESA and other key systems are cleared for transfer ... so its quite possible that the version of the AESA offered will be full-spec ... In fact, I am sure, India would not accept anything less than that

ToT, with full software?

But, very good to hear that "India would not accept ........"

Boeing reps repeatedly state that the AESA will be evaluated in conjunction with other systems ... ie ... the data link, FLIR etc to showcase the full package ...

That is a package that CANNOT be beat.

The proposed GE F414 EPE (Enhanced Performance Engine) for India offers a 20 per cent increase in thrust and a 1 per cent reduction in fuel burn. The F414 is itself in the 22,000 lb thrust class, 170 lb/second airflow. Engine change is done in under 30 minutes, interchangeable left and right engine installation. No need for a functional check flight after engine change. No throttle restrictions while in operation (I have personally witnessed this ... its amazing ... you can pretty much do what you want with the throttle ... slam it to burner and take it back as much as you want ... nothing happens).

With plenty of growth!!!

Again, the rest will play catch up.

So, this should put to bed the concern about T/W issue?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Oct 2009 22:50

well.. correspondingly, http://www.eurofighter.com/et_ss_tp_bi.asp EJ200s could offer 30% growth potential with TVC from 20K lbs wet thrusts.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Oct 2009 23:03

That is fine.

What about the other issues? 30 min change, etc?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Oct 2009 23:44

sure they will match..

http://typhoon.starstreak.net/Eurofight ... t-sys.html A typical groundcrew of 4 personnel can change-out a single EJ200 engine in only 45 minutes. A typical operational turn-around can be performed in 25 minutes with 6 personnel.

25min! beats em up!

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 30 Oct 2009 00:08

Vishnu,

Thanks for the quick peek into what seems to be going on. That Boeing, LM and Saab are the most aggressive at PR is visible enough. INteresting that the 12ton GE engine is on offer, that'll do the shornet a world of good.

Any chance of pics? We hardly got to see the Rafale or MiG-35 in Bangalore, Jaisalmer etc. Only the Shornet and 16 got their pictures taken it seems - chalk up another feather for said PR teams.

More importantly, iirc that you were going to do a piece on the 35 but we never saw it (no, not the one that is archived, there was supposed to be one more I thought). Any way any time spent by you here is very informative. Interesting that you have a favourite, would love to find out but still, I s'pose a reporter must be objective, shame! Ahem, any chance of PMs?.

CM.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 30 Oct 2009 03:07

Vishnu wrote: All I can say is that I have a personal favourite in this MMRCA race ... and I would love to get into the debate on why that jet is better than the rest ... but thats a temptation I am avoiding ...

Must say that's a very responsible behaviour Vishnu. How I wish, everyone in our media maintained the same ethical standards.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 30 Oct 2009 06:41

Advantages with SH:
1.) Matured AESA, if comes with TOT and source codes then sone pe suhaga.
2.) 118kn engine takes care of Tejas Mk2 even Mk3 thrust problems also, plus for the bean counters costs 4million against the 10million of EJ200.
3.) Would match up nicely with PHALCON.

Disadvantages:
1.) Sanction prone (sorry for the cliche).
2.) Danger of being full of bugs.
3.) Almost as heavy as Rambha.
4.) Not very acrobatic (although Air Chief Tyagi said "we are looking for something which can do more than the acrobatics in the sky".
5.) Heavy landing gear made for Ships.
6.) Upgradationwise it will become another Mig21, with US moving towards F-35. We will have another sense of Deja Vu.

Advantages Ef2k:
1.) GaN Chips made AESA (though comes late), but india will have involvement in developing it.
2.) Political package promised by EADS (Kashmir, AP).
3.) Really comes in MRCA category.
4.) EJ200 expensive but comes with growth potential of 30% + 100kg less heavy + New technology compared to 30 years old GE414. This engine can go in MCA too.
5.) India can produce many parts cheap and supply to other partners.
6.) Highest %age of composites, if TOT can happen on this too then "Radhey Radhey"

7.) Training experience with Brits who have won all the wars in last 300 years.

Disadvantages:
1.) AESA not ready and MRCA is stop gap so it will take at least another 5 years to mature.
2.) Incredibly Ugly.
3.) Quite expensive + New weaponery need to be bought + plus my favorite Python5 is not in its list of weaponery.

Regarding that MMRCA plane will be in IAF at least till 2045, I vote for Ef2k. Look friends we are anyway saving so much money by not upgrading M2K. Why the kanjoosi.

Vishnu regarding your favourite I think I know what it is. It's been obvious in your posts with the affection you have been writing about this jet and that is:
Grippen
please forgive me for this dhrishtata, punching out flare and ducking out of here.

nash · Post by **nash** » 30 Oct 2009 09:57

one thing is sure which i got from this discussion that either GE 414 EPE or EJ200, which ever get selected for LCA MK2 , it will give thrust of about ~120 KN.

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 30 Oct 2009 11:13

Incredibly Ugly

The EF is gorgeous

Eurofighter Typhoon carrying 4 x Paveway II, 4 x AMRAAM air-to-air missiles, 2 x IRIS-T air-to-air missiles, and 3 x 1,000L external fuel tanks!

Quite expensive + New weaponery need to be bought + plus my favorite Python5 is not in its list of weaponery.

Its not the most expensive and I think the METEOR more than makes up for the Python 5. India can always integrate it if they wish. The IRIS-T and ASRAAM is a good air-to-air missile too!!

srai · Post by **srai** » 30 Oct 2009 12:05

Manish_Sharma wrote:...
4.) EJ200 expensive but comes with growth potential of 30% + 100kg less heavy + New technology compared to 30 years old GE414. This engine can go in MCA too.
...

They have a TVC nozzle developed for the EJ200 as well which is supposed to provide better fuel efficiency and controls in various profiles other than just better maneuverability.

Imagine that on an LCA MK.II ... EJ200 with TVC!

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 30 Oct 2009 15:34

b_patel wrote:
Incredibly Ugly
The EF is gorgeous

[not so fictional troll]
Oh God ! I forgot my LDP !
Well if I carried it I'd have to drop my centreline fuel tank. Sh*t, loaded as I am, I'd need some fuel to go somewhere... what should I do ?
[/not so fictional troll]

About Vishnu's comments on EADS/Dassault com toward public & journalists, guess we all agree it's their weak spot, but they could also be thinking that it won't help them score points in the tender anyway. I just hope they do their part of the job with really concerned people.

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 30 Oct 2009 16:47

The New guided cassette bombs (15 cassette units in a gliding bomb) for Russian planes, including MiG-35.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 30 Oct 2009 18:33

Igorr wrote:The New guided cassette bombs (15 cassette units in a gliding bomb) for Russian planes, including MiG-35.
ECHqRL_nKQ0

not only for mig35 but also for mig27 as well and for jaguar as well

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 30 Oct 2009 18:47

Don't underestimate the Swedes,as the new development ("Q" being let off the hook officially,is it a coincidence or what?) allows the Swedes to pitch in strongly with their wares for the MMRCA and the artillery deal!

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 30 Oct 2009 18:59

Jean_M wrote: Oh God ! I forgot my LDP !

its obvious that if this aircraft doesn't has LDP then there must be other aircraft flying with this typhoon which carry LDP

not all aircraft need to carry LDP

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 30 Oct 2009 19:02

Howmany years these trials are going to take. Any official word on that???

Jean_M · Post by **Jean_M** » 30 Oct 2009 19:25

Baldev wrote:
Jean_M wrote: Oh God ! I forgot my LDP !
its obvious that if this aircraft doesn't has LDP then there must be other aircraft flying with this typhoon which carry LDP

not all aircraft need to carry LDP

Of course but it won't have this loading configuration: it'll have less fuel, then less bombs. And while in a hot mission, risking to be shot, it may be hard to synchro both planes for targeting and bombing. Furthermore this configuration suggest that they should be able to do so four times... Only when you are master of the sky can you do that (and at that moment of the fight, you have a fairly lower need for 1000kg bombs).

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 30 Oct 2009 19:50

When was EJ2000 renamed as EJ200? Mysteriously the literature available on google also mentions EJ200.

Cheers....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Oct 2009 19:51

200 is the hotter inside of 2000!

, btw did you notice diff between the F and the J?

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 30 Oct 2009 20:13

Narayana Rao wrote:Howmany years these trials are going to take. Any official word on that???

Expect it to be over by April/May.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 30 Oct 2009 20:17

SaiK wrote:200 is the hotter inside of 2000! ,

Following is confusing me, from EF's site:

The Eurojet EJ200 engine is Europe’s latest high performance, advanced technology military turbofan designed to fulfil the demanding requirements for the next generation of combat aircraft.

btw did you notice diff between the F and the J?

Didn't quite get that. Please elaborate.

Cheers....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Oct 2009 20:28

EF2000 - Euro Fighter 2K
EJ200 - its engine.

MarcH · Post by **MarcH** » 30 Oct 2009 20:49

4.) Not very acrobatic (although Air Chief Tyagi said "we are looking for something which can do more than the acrobatics in the sky".

Not true. It is very manouverable at subsonic speeds. Excellent thrust to weight ratio, straight wing and low wing loading make it an excellent performer at low speeds.

4.) EJ200 expensive but comes with growth potential of 30% + 100kg less heavy + New technology compared to 30 years old GE414. This engine can go in MCA too.

GE F414 isn't 30 years old. It is a new development with Volvo Aero Engines as risk sharing partner. (Swedes are responsible for design and manufactoring of the low pressure fan). It is of the same generation as EJ-200.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 30 Oct 2009 22:31

SaiK wrote:EF2000 - Euro Fighter 2K
EJ200 - its engine.

Untill recently Typhoon's engine was reffered to as EJ2000 but now even the official site is mentioning it as EJ200. Quoting the following just to give an example:

ADA will also evaluate EJ2000 engine promoted by the Europe based Eurojet consortium.

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4477

Powerplant two Eurojet EJ2000 afterburning turbofans

http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/typhoon/

Cheers....

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 30 Oct 2009 22:39

perhaps the 2000 reference to the engine is a mistake, taken out of EF2000 name.

koti · Post by **koti** » 31 Oct 2009 00:27

I saw a pic of Mig-29xx with Yakhont on its centreline. (Attached and flying). The Klub-N is also in the same weight league.
Are these options being offered for the Mig-35?
And what are the similar missiles available for other contenders.

IIRC, the Mig-35 has 9 nine hardpoints. But recent posts show eleven hardpoints on the bird. Can anyone clarify this?

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 31 Oct 2009 02:06

neerajb wrote:
SaiK wrote:EF2000 - Euro Fighter 2K
EJ200 - its engine.
Untill recently Typhoon's engine was reffered to as EJ2000 but now even the official site is mentioning it as EJ200. Quoting the following just to give an example:

ADA will also evaluate EJ2000 engine promoted by the Europe based Eurojet consortium.
http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4477

Powerplant two Eurojet EJ2000 afterburning turbofans
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/aircraft/fighter/typhoon/

Cheers....

It was never referred to as the EJ2000. I have seen adverts on the EJ200 by the Eurojet Consortium in Flight International magazines since 1999 and later, which referred to the engine as EJ200. I remember it well because I had one really sexy advert cut out and pasted on my wall (it said "If looks could kill", with a pilot in full gear and with HMD, standing in front of Typhoon with Storm Shadow missiles on it). Those references you're quoting are the ones that are wrong and mistakenly added an extra zero because of the confusion between EJ200 and the EF2000, which the aircraft was known as before it was officially named 'Typhoon'.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 31 Oct 2009 03:52

koti wrote:I saw a pic of Mig-29xx with Yakhont on its centreline. (Attached and flying). The Klub-N is also in the same weight league.
Are these options being offered for the Mig-35?
And what are the similar missiles available for other contenders.

IIRC, the Mig-35 has 9 nine hardpoints. But recent posts show eleven hardpoints on the bird. Can anyone clarify this?

A MiG-29 with a Yahont and flying? This I gotta see - could you post a link, image or something?
As far as the 11 hps go, iirc, MiG had a "model" displayed @ Maks 07 with enlarged wings and 11 hardpoints. I don't think anything much came out of it - the current 35 is still the same one we all saw @ AI.

CM.

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 31 Oct 2009 11:14

Swedish forumers elsewhere writes that Gripen NG demo this week started validation flights of its new sensors such as AESA and MAW.

neerajb · Post by **neerajb** » 31 Oct 2009 11:27

Kartik wrote:It was never referred to as the EJ2000. I have seen adverts on the EJ200 by the Eurojet Consortium in Flight International magazines since 1999 and later, which referred to the engine as EJ200. I remember it well because I had one really sexy advert cut out and pasted on my wall (it said "If looks could kill", with a pilot in full gear and with HMD, standing in front of Typhoon with Storm Shadow missiles on it). Those references you're quoting are the ones that are wrong and mistakenly added an extra zero because of the confusion between EJ200 and the EF2000, which the aircraft was known as before it was officially named 'Typhoon'.

I could be wrong here but yes this confusion of Typhoon's engine name runs deep even at BR. Ran a google search for 'EJ2000' and lot's of links including livefist came up. Even a search on BR shows the profound usage of EJ2000.

Agreed that the actual name is EJ200, but then why such widespread confusion in name among so many people.

Cheers....

dorai · Post by **dorai** » 31 Oct 2009 12:12

neerajb wrote:
Even a search on BR shows the profound usage of EJ2000.

Agreed that the actual name is EJ200, but then why such widespread confusion in name among so many people.

Cheers....

Enthusiasm triumphs knowledge.

People are not too bright on the topic of military aviation. Much of what is posted is just repeats of poorly written wikipedia or blog articles.

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 31 Oct 2009 23:20

koti wrote:I saw a pic of Mig-29xx with Yakhont on its centreline. (Attached and flying). The Klub-N is also in the same weight league.
Are these options being offered for the Mig-35?

yakhont or brahmos was never offered for mig-35,RUSSIANS initially though of offering KLUb[ 3m-14e land attack version], but later offered 285km range kh-59mk2 being developed for pak-fa,
here are its features

Key performance characteristics of kh-59mk2

Altitude range missile launch km - 0,2 ... 11
The range of Mach numbers of flight vehicle at the time of missile launch - 0,5 ... 0,9
Maximum missile range, km - 285
Racurs target at start-up rocket deg. - Up to ± 45 °
The height of a missile above the earth's surface, depending on the terrain, m - 50 ... 300
Flight speed km / h - 900 ... 1050
Control system - SNAU based SINS + NAP + MA-M
Circular error probable missile from a given point of sight (Ekvo), m - 3 ... 5
Warhead:
Type - PrBCh or KBCH
Weight, kg - 320 / 283
Launch weight rocket kg - up to 900
Overall dimensions of the rocket, m:
- Hull length - 5,7
- Wingspan - 1,3
- Diameter - 0,38 (0,42 at the bow)

http://translate.google.co.in/translate ... n%26sa%3DG

And what are the similar missiles available for other contenders.

1.f-16 and f-18 have 290km range slam-er

2.eurofighter has storm shadow and taurus kepd-350 both with 300-350km range

3.gripen has taurus kepd-350

4.rafale has scalp ,the french version of storm shadow

any more questions

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 01 Nov 2009 20:41

Thanks to Jack MS @ keypubs fora: via Janes

Super Hornet favourite in Indian and Brazilian tenders

By Reuben F Johnson
30 October 2009

The Boeing F/A-18E/F Super Hornet is well placed to fulfil both the Indian and Brazilian fighter requirements, the company and its industry partners said on 28 October.

Boeing and its Team Super Hornet partners – Raytheon and General Electric (GE) – presented a broad-ranging review of the F/A-18E/F's position in both the Indian Air Force's (IAF's) Medium-Multirole Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) programme for 163 aircraft plus 63 options and the Brazilian Air Force's F-X2 tender for the first 36 of what is projected to be a total of 120 fighters.

Boeing stated that two major factors make the Super Hornet competitive in both markets: the first one being that the economies of scale that result from both the aircraft and its major subsystems are still hot (active) production lines and hence have steadily reduced the unit cost of the aircraft; the other is that the modular nature of the aircraft's sensors and propulsion system permit technology insertion that dramatically increases performance at minimal expense.

"The history of the F/A-18E/F's development has now seen a negative slope in terms of cost and a positive slope in terms of capability. For this reason we feel for the first time we are competing on even terms with the [Lockheed Martin] F-16 in terms of price," stated Boeing Military Aircraft IDS President Chris Chadwick.

Raytheon representatives, who also briefed during the New Delhi conference, emphasised that "Raytheon provided the first AESA [active electronically scanned array] radar sets to both the USAF [US Air Force] and USN [US Navy]", and that the company continues to leverage technological improvements across its product lines in improving the Super Hornet's AN/APG-79 radar.

CM

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 01 Nov 2009 21:01

Sorry but janes is usually garbage fed by american companies. I wouldn't read much into the article. If IAF decides to go with Ej-200 engines then it is bye bye f-18.