MRCA News and Discussion

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koti
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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby koti » 12 Oct 2009 09:38

The first planes manufactured had Russian markings. I think these were repainted to IN colors before delivery.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby rajeshks » 12 Oct 2009 11:54

SaiK wrote:elta 2052 or an mmr-2 version on mig35 could bring interesting change to this puppy. besides, on the engine, we could ask the klimovs to move over the SC blades in addtion to the BLISK tech they have. our vetrivel team is ready to version 2 for the next candiate, and could be very well the migs if they engage this way, by firing israeli, french and russian weapons from mig35 platform. firing ks172 and metor, plus a modernized scaled brahmos could make it the killer platform, with the engaging OLS integration for close combats using TVC.

little config changes, and thats it!.. (of course besides other augmentations that comes with in)


Forget about everything else, I would love to see our MRCA firing MBDA Meteor and see who will dare to challenge us if we we decide to go on an Ashwamedh :)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby M Kumar » 12 Oct 2009 15:44

Hi All,

Any news on filed trials? Heard F16 and 18 were here. When are the rest going to arrive?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby saptarishi » 12 Oct 2009 21:35

KMohan wrote:Hi All,

Any news on filed trials? Heard F16 and 18 were here. When are the rest going to arrive?


sir ji even rafale was here and has left, oct 21-22 will see the iaf pilots courting MIG-35 in bengaluru skies
then in march iaf pilots will do chiggy wiggy with gripen and typhoon :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby jai » 13 Oct 2009 02:10

IMHO; we should go with the best tech without any strings. Imagine trying to sort out any misadventure by our "friendly neighbours" with our old "friend" Akhan putting a gun to our head. Suggested dream options are a) Go for EF or Rafale in big numbers b) Combine MCA, LCA 2 and MRCA into one LIMCA (Light Indian Multirole combat Aircraft - for the want of a better name !) with the winning AC company to provide any tech india needs to create LIMCA in any numbers it wants using any equipment.
Otherwise, go for 40 TU 160 and 40 TU 22M3 (MKI :twisted: !) armed to the teeth with Brahmos 1 & 2..and spend another US$ 5 BN to acquire S 400 Triumf units that should dot our countryside bordering our friendly neighbours.....should get us some respite against friendly neighbours planning any joint misadventures after that.... :twisted: :twisted:
Gurus/moderators please pardon this little flight of fancy !! OH ! How I wish for this ! :wink:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Luxtor » 13 Oct 2009 03:00

^^^

We need to get rid of 'Light" from our vocabulary when it comes to designating our aircraft and other weapon systems. Everything is "light" with us. ALH, LCA, Light this, Light that. Light somehow denotes less capability to outside observers. (I know it supposed to mean light as in weight). If light weight is one of the aspects of a weapon system it doesn't need to be made part of the name. For Dhruv why not call it Advanced Multirole Helicopter (AMH), or for Tejas, Advanced Combat Aircraft (ACA) and so on? ... Oh and Tejas means Radient ....for a combat aircraft? How about Skyhawk, Eagle, Lightening, Thunderbolt, Sky Warrier etc, etc.?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kartik » 13 Oct 2009 03:20

koti wrote:The first planes manufactured had Russian markings. I think these were repainted to IN colors before delivery.


yes its standard procedure to paint them in the colours of the home air force and only paint them in the customer's colours before delivery. IAF Hawks had the RAF's roundels and fin flash painted on right after they were rolled out and before their first flight as well..It was only prior to delivery that they had the IAF roundel and fin flash painted on.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby M Kumar » 13 Oct 2009 10:05

sir ji even rafale was here and has left, oct 21-22 will see the iaf pilots courting MIG-35 in bengaluru skies
then in march iaf pilots will do chiggy wiggy with gripen and typhoon


My what a miss.. I stay close to old airport and thought the noise was usual LCA take offs. I wish they just finalise on Rafale give the rest a miss. :mrgreen:
This time I won't miss Mig35 and Typhoon. I will clearly give Grippen a miss, for me it's no diffrent from LCA.
Last edited by M Kumar on 13 Oct 2009 10:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby M Kumar » 13 Oct 2009 10:09

Mods can you please change my nick... Please make it MKumar

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby kishan » 13 Oct 2009 11:10

F-18/Rafale/MIG.

I am sure one of these is going to fly in IAF colors.I am not worried of which would be "the one"(infact any one amogst MRCA contenders) but when (3,4,5,....? yrs) from now.

any bird(among the three) and MKI would perfectly complement each other.so why dont we induct them ASAP and get the job done(arrest the depleting numbers).

Also IAF wants 18(out of 126) of these in fly away condition. why not make them 36? so that the induction can be quick.

May be its time our "netas" realized what numbers(sqdns) can do (atleast from our neighbours perspective).

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby adel ansari » 13 Oct 2009 11:32

hey. mod can you change my log in name to adel as well..
thanks....
Last edited by adel ansari on 13 Oct 2009 11:40, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby adel ansari » 13 Oct 2009 11:36

jai wrote:Oh and Tejas means Radient ....for a combat aircraft? How about Skyhawk, Eagle, Lightening, Thunderbolt, Sky Warrier etc, etc.?
^^^



You bet.. Couldn't agree more with you on this.. I don't understand why there is a compulsion to name everything in 'hindi'. I mean, I don't have anything against hindi, just that, it doesn't really go with it.(My opinion). There are so many languages in India can't we get a decent and a nice sounding name for our aircarfts and hardwares.....just my 2 cents...

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby kmkraoind » 13 Oct 2009 11:45

akash wrote:
jai wrote:Oh and Tejas means Radient ....for a combat aircraft? How about Skyhawk, Eagle, Lightening, Thunderbolt, Sky Warrier etc, etc.?
^^^



You bet.. Couldn't agree more with you on this.. I don't understand why there is a compulsion to name everything in 'hindi'. I mean, I don't have anything against hindi, just that, it doesn't really go with it.(My opinion). There are so many languages in India can't we get a decent and a nice sounding name for our aircarfts and hardwares.....just my 2 cents...


Who said Tejas is Hindi word, indeed it is a Sanskrit word :-? , which is the source of Indo-Aryan languages and influenced greatly all Dravidian languages. Please do some research or reference before saying such things. Moreover when we have rich cultural heritage why should we prefer English names over Indic names. At any time I would prefer Garuda/Suparna over Eagle.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby adel ansari » 13 Oct 2009 12:04

kmkraoind wrote:
Who said Tejas is Hindi word, indeed it is a Sanskrit word :-? , which is the source of Indo-Aryan languages and influenced greatly all Dravidian languages. Please do some research or reference before saying such things. Moreover when we have rich cultural heritage why should we prefer English names over Indic names. At any time I would prefer Garuda/Suparna over Eagle.


Well if you missed it in my post, I will state it again. I said 'There so many languages in India'. Why cant we use names from these languages Bengali, Marathi, Tamil etc etc..and why just stick to hindi.. I never said name them in English.....

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Kailash » 13 Oct 2009 12:10

^^^^
and why is this MRCA stuff?

guess we should rename this as the TPT (time pass thread)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby M Kumar » 13 Oct 2009 13:02

Who said Tejas is Hindi word, indeed it is a Sanskrit word , which is the source of Indo-Aryan languages and influenced greatly all Dravidian languages. Please do some research or reference before saying such things. Moreover when we have rich cultural heritage why should we prefer English names over Indic names. At any time I would prefer Garuda/Suparna over Eagle.


Yup Tejas is fine with me, but Baaz for Mig29 s*cks, Inspired from Bollywood flickx. Luckliy Su30 isn't called Shahenshah(though it is). Sorry for OT.
I don't know what each aircraft would cost because of sealed bids, but I'm sure Dasault is going to give a tough fight (if selected :oops: ).

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby AmitR » 13 Oct 2009 13:11

KMohan wrote:
Who said Tejas is Hindi word, indeed it is a Sanskrit word , which is the source of Indo-Aryan languages and influenced greatly all Dravidian languages. Please do some research or reference before saying such things. Moreover when we have rich cultural heritage why should we prefer English names over Indic names. At any time I would prefer Garuda/Suparna over Eagle.


Yup Tejas is fine with me, but Baaz for Mig29 s*cks, Inspired from Bollywood flickx. Luckliy Su30 isn't called Shahenshah(though it is). Sorry for OT.
I don't know what each aircraft would cost because of sealed bids, but I'm sure Dasault is going to give a tough fight (if selected :oops: ).


:roll: Now let me take this stupid discussion to another level. Why the heck is this site named Bharat-Rakshak in Hindi. Why can't we use words from other languages like Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali, Kannada etc. Mods this is an affront to our multicultural society. Please change the site name to something else. :(( :((

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby M Kumar » 13 Oct 2009 13:36

Now let me take this stupid discussion to another level. Why the heck is this site named Bharat-Rakshak in Hindi. Why can't we use words from other languages like Punjabi, Gujarati, Bengali, Kannada etc. Mods this is an affront to our multicultural society. Please change the site name to something else.


AmitR This discussion isn't stupid in first place and but reply to posts made earlier by akash and rest. But by your reply you have actually taken stupidity to a new level.
I'm not against regional names and for Angrez names, but I made a mention of Baaz as this name sounds ridiculous. You have wonderful names in Sanskrit. Anyway OT but my fave is Prithvi and Agnee. Something in these lines.
Last edited by M Kumar on 13 Oct 2009 14:59, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby adel ansari » 13 Oct 2009 14:06

KMohan wrote:[

AmitR This discussion isn't stupid in first place and but reply to posts made earlier by akash and rest. But by your reply you have actually taken stupidity to a new level. :shock:
I'm not against regional names and for Angrez names, but I made a mention of Baaz as this name sounds ridiculous. You have wonderful names in Sanskrit. Anyway OT but my fave is Prithvi and Agnee. Something in these lines.


Could you explain as to what was so stupid about the reply.. I just said why cant we explore a vast pool of our languagaes to come out with the best possible name rather than just depending on hindi or sanskrit. It didnt had to do anything with superiority of any language. Just making a point to get the best name out of languages we already have. ..Neways.. think that this discussion has stretched more than it should have... Guess we should b back to the core topic...
Regards..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby M Kumar » 13 Oct 2009 14:12

akash wrote:
KMohan wrote:[

AmitR This discussion isn't stupid in first place and but reply to posts made earlier by akash and rest. But by your reply you have actually taken stupidity to a new level. :shock:
I'm not against regional names and for Angrez names, but I made a mention of Baaz as this name sounds ridiculous. You have wonderful names in Sanskrit. Anyway OT but my fave is Prithvi and Agnee. Something in these lines.


Could you explain as to what was so stupid about the reply.. I just said why cant we explore a vast pool of our languagaes to come out with the best possible name rather than just depending on hindi or sanskrit. It didnt had to do anything with superiority of any language. Just making a point to get the best name out of languages we already have. ..Neways.. think that this discussion has stretched more than it should have... Guess we should b back to the core topic...
Regards..


Don't shoot before you aim!
Before I finally rest my case here Akash do yourself a favour and read who called this discussion stupid in first place and what I replied to him. If you can read my post I was defending. By targetting my post you have taken this discussion to a new level of ( forget it). You want to defend read my post carefully, see who called it stupid first and defend yourself. I don;t understand what some smoke after lunch........ :roll:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby M Kumar » 13 Oct 2009 14:21

Before long Su30 start crashing like Mig 21's and before HMRCA bidding starts MoD do something and get Rafale's. :wink:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby adel ansari » 13 Oct 2009 14:24

KMohan wrote:
AmitR This discussion isn't stupid in first place and but reply to posts made earlier by akash and rest. But by your reply you have actually taken stupidity to a new level. :shock:
I'm not against regional names and for Angrez names, but I made a mention of Baaz as this name sounds ridiculous. You have wonderful names in Sanskrit. Anyway OT but my fave is Prithvi and Agnee. Something in these lines.




KMohan..
Hahaha.. Hats off to you.. you are the master of all.. BTW editing your post won't help.. coz this forum out does your smartness.. haha check the timing when you edited and also if you want to have a look at your original post read above.. Neways.. m outta here...
Its there for all to c..
Regards..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby krishnan » 13 Oct 2009 14:24

What makes you think su 30MKI will start crashing?

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Gaur » 13 Oct 2009 14:28

KMohan, is reading the forum title such a difficult thing to do?
Take your posts elsewhere before mods crack the whip.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby M Kumar » 13 Oct 2009 14:43

KMohan..
Hahaha.. Hats off to you.. you are the master of all.. BTW editing your post won't help.. coz this forum out does your smartness.. haha check the timing when you edited and also if you want to have a look at your original post read above.. Neways.. m outta here...
Its there for all to c..



It was edited to make things clear for all esp people like you who do not read but jump into conclusions. I was editing my post in the maentime you have replied that's it. Hence my statement for you read my post in bold. Not to outrun from what I wrote or outsmart anyone. The original content is clear in quotes in your post... I know what my original post was.

KMohan, is reading the forum title such a difficult thing to do?
Take your posts elsewhere before mods crack the whip.


Didn't quite understand, can you explain this Mr Parijat?
I'm literate enough to read, but problem I see is some can't. A tendency to reply to last post without reading the background.

What makes you think su 30MKI will start crashing?


Krishnan I meant before MKI's get too old let us have MMRCA finalised.. :mrgreen: This statement was made only to get a hypothecial view on MMRCA delays and not to insult our Rambha 8)

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Devesh Rawal » 14 Oct 2009 01:45

Perception = Reality!

To me this puts the nail in the coffin for the F-16IN:
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/2009/10/13/333408/pictures-lockheed-martin-unveils-first-f-16-block-52-ordered-by-pakistan.html
Complete with conformal tanks, and a WO station!! WVR dogfights will be interesting - can anyone think of another example of a war in which such similar aricraft went up against each other? (Probably Mig-29s in Bosnia?)

Posting here because I thought it was relevant news for our MRCA comp. (AND hopefully we can get back to the thread) :mrgreen:

Yeah, I know its not the same as the one offered to India, but I wonder how operationally outstanding is the IN version (AESA comes to mind).

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 14 Oct 2009 01:53

Is this a surprise to anyone? I do not for a second think this will impact the Indian decision.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Devesh Rawal » 14 Oct 2009 02:08

NRao wrote:Is this a surprise to anyone? I do not for a second think this will impact the Indian decision.


Not a surprise, but I thought its a relevant recent development - no? I mean the PAF version takes to the skies...

We've probably beaten that comparison to death, but it may be naive (maybe I'm the only one with the opinion) to think that this has absolutely *no* bearing on an IAF decision.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby SaiK » 14 Oct 2009 02:12

mmrca, imho is not paki centric.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Raveen » 14 Oct 2009 02:56

Devesh Rawal wrote:
NRao wrote:Is this a surprise to anyone? I do not for a second think this will impact the Indian decision.


Not a surprise, but I thought its a relevant recent development - no? I mean the PAF version takes to the skies...

We've probably beaten that comparison to death, but it may be naive (maybe I'm the only one with the opinion) to think that this has absolutely *no* bearing on an IAF decision.


The fact that an event that was anticipated and expected and heck even discussed to death is by no means any more relevant now that the plane has taken to the skies than it was when it had not (if the actual plane taking to the skies makes it relevant...then I guess the Mig-35 remains irrelevant :rotfl: ). Not to say it is completely irrelevant, but definitely not a surprise and definitely not more relevant just because it is flying now.

Now back to MRCA 'NEWS' (this was not news to anyone on BR who has been following the thread).

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby NRao » 14 Oct 2009 03:10

Missiles supplied by the US to the Pakistanis have been modified per reports from the US!!! Enough said.

However, specifically on the F-16, CAS has been on record - for what that is worth, of course BR has its own thinking.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Devesh Rawal » 14 Oct 2009 05:30

Raveen wrote:Now back to MRCA 'NEWS' (this was not news to anyone on BR who has been following the thread).


Yeah, in the future, I'll remember that as a newbie, I'm only allowed to post messages about why planes are named in Sanskrit vs Bengali.. and not bother if there's a real development with implications and some 'official' information about a particular relevance to a BR thread. Funnily enough, in other forums, contributions are actually encouraged. 'nuff said. I'll ask for permission next time. :shock:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby shiv » 14 Oct 2009 05:52

I am told that MiG 35 is in town. Sadly I will not be at that golf course. I am proposing the name "Velankanniamma" for the selected MRCA contender. The name reveals a hint of South and represents the secular character of our nation, as well as being a female name to highlight our respect for the mother figure.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Raveen » 14 Oct 2009 06:43

Devesh Rawal wrote:
Raveen wrote:Now back to MRCA 'NEWS' (this was not news to anyone on BR who has been following the thread).


Funnily enough, in other forums, contributions are actually encouraged. 'nuff said. I'll ask for permission next time. :shock:


Contributions are always encouraged and are only preceded in importance by searching.
I didn't, can't and will not ever prevent a post (or permit it) about anything, I lack the authority and the inclination. All I was suggesting was a simple search of how many times this deal was discussed and how this is not news and therefore imho doesn't contribute to the discussion...but you know what they say about opinions...you are welcome to ignore mine if you don't like how it smells, although I would encourage a more polite and less abrasive tone next time, of course this is a personal request.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby karan_mc » 14 Oct 2009 08:03

pandyan wrote:I heard from a reliable panwalla that F-16s are like pigeons...basically, if you have one alpha-pigeon, all the other pigeons will come home to roost. all we need to do is buy few alpha f-16s (which is what lockmart is proposing) and strategically locate them along the border; whenever the other guys f-16 flies on training missions, we launch ours and start the advanced interlocking remote control with command override system (AIRCCOS), eject the other pilot and bring the planes to our side and land them for our use. :shock: :shock: :shock: and then LM will upgrade to our standards...this is one of the key offset scheme LM has proposed. :mrgreen:


this is one hell of a crazy idea ,if this can be done it should be saved for war like situation ,paf will be pissed off :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Mahesh_R » 14 Oct 2009 08:25

shiv wrote:I am proposing the name "Velankanniamma" for the selected MRCA contender. The name reveals a hint of South and represents the secular character of our nation, as well as being a female name to highlight our respect for the mother figure.

I would like to propose the name as JHANSI...some how I like this name very much...gives the fighting spirit..

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Philip » 14 Oct 2009 11:39

Guys,get hold of the latest VAYU and read the fine article calling for simpler fighters,which has a mine of info of all types,east and west used in all the major conflicts .Some points in it have been reflected in BR and in this thread in particular.The overburdening of tech in a "multi-role" aircraft,making it a "jack-of-all-trades and master of none".The speed at which most combat occurs,the myth of BVR missiles,need for cannon/guns,quantity/numbers having its own value,twin-engined advantage during peacetime (5 times survival rate) as against single-engined aircraft,crash stats during peacetime,war losses,myth of stealth,longevity,costs,etc.,etc.There is also some info about the Jaguar upgrade and our history with the Gnat,HF-24,MIG-21s,what succeeded and what didn't.

In deciding our choice for the MMRCA,this article brings one down to earth with a bang,as its objectiveness and truth of the matter cannot be easily discarded.In the IAF and Indian context,our numbers have fallen dangerously low and with the sudden looming threat from the dragon,the faster we augment our numbers with cost-effective, capable and easily maintainable fighters the better.The author mentions how the apparent lowly upgraded MIG-21 Bison gave the US F-15s the biggest headache during the first Indo-US exercises and warns us about the seemingly inferior Sino-Pak fighters being inducted in large numbers.With the final figuer going to be about 200+ MMRCA aircraft eventually acquired,given that the LCA will arrive very late,this acquisition is of vital importance to the IAF and India's security and no compromises or chances regarding sanctions,lack of spares and support,etc.,must be entertained.

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Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby dorai » 14 Oct 2009 12:46

wow didn't know this

The more people dig into Rafale the more they found out it's not so "100% French" after all. They also depend on US and Biritsh suppliers for other parts.

Brazil's F-X2 deadline sparks war of words
Robert Hewson Jane's Air-Launched Weapons Editor
Oct 06, 2009
London
The Brazilian government's notional selection of France as its F-X2 future fighter supplier has been received with mixed reactions.
Embraer was this week forced to issue a statement contradicting the chief of its own defence sector business, who singled out the Swedish Gripen bid as the only one that offered full technology transfer and industrial control to Brazil.
The three F-X2 competitors submitted their Best and Final Offers (BAFOs) to the Brazilian Ministry of Defence (MoD) on 2 October. The deadline for submissions was extended by two weeks, into October, when the F-X2 process was thrown into confusion by President Lula da Silva's September announcement that France would win the competition.
A final, formal decision on the F-X2 winner could come as soon as 23 October, when Brazil's air force celebrates Aviation Day.
In an interview with Brazil's Valor Econômico financial newspaper on 28 September, Orlando José Ferreira Neto, executive vice-president for the defence market at Embraer, said he thought the Gripen deal offered the best return for Brazil.
"We have assessed the three offers by request of the Brazilian Air Force and we saw that the Swedish Saab offer is the one that will ensure knowledge and technology aggregation for Brazil within the 'on the job doing' premise, meaning learning by doing it. We are not interested in manufacturing parts. We seek mastering the knowledge that we do not have and that will be useful for us to develop future aircraft," he said.
Neto's comments echo what he told Jane's during a visit to Embraer's São José dos Campos headquarters in April. Then Neto noted that both the Dassault Rafale and Boeing Super Hornet were effectively finished products, requiring little or no future development.

He also cited strong concerns about US technology transfer policy, saying: "Tech transfer is a big problem because by law each piece requires a 'yes or no' decision by Congress on a case-by-case basis. For an air force that wants to be independent this may be an impediment."
On the Gripen, Neto told Jane's : "The Gripen NG is a brand new development. There is not an NG aircraft yet and it will take a lot of engineering and highly qualified work to turn the demo aircraft into the NG. So the strength of the Gripen offer is technology transfer. Of course development has its own risk, but the best training is not in the classroom, it's doing it on the job."
Following Neto's Brazilian newspaper interview Embraer was forced to issue a statement the next day stating: "Embraer clarifies that it is not directly participating in the selection process of the new F-X2 fighter for the Brazilian Air Force and, contrary to what was stated, it has no preference among the proposals presented."

The Swedish Gripen team has enlisted UK government support for its F-X2 bid, based on the return for UK industry that the Gripen provides. An initial batch of 36 Gripens for Brazil would have GBP200 million (USD319 million) of UK content and the expected order for at least 100 aircraft over 15 years would see that figure rise to over GBP1 billion. For this reason Saab has had UK government support from the highest levels for its F-X2 bid.
The issue of national control over technology remains a central issue in Brazil.

Dassault has made much of the fact that only it has a package sourced completely from a single home nation. In fact, Dassault is in the uncomfortable position of relying on Swedish suppliers for some key combat systems including the Mica BVR missile datalink and the laser rangefinder in Rafale's OSF sensor fit.


http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Def ... words.html

Jean_M
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 60
Joined: 26 Aug 2008 16:08
Location: Paris surroundings

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby Jean_M » 14 Oct 2009 15:17

And you think THALES and SAFRAN can't give us something equivalent ? Come on since when are Laser range finders and datalink out of reach to french ? Furthermore, i have difficulties to imagin Sweden's government putting export restrictions on theses parts without shooting its own foot (as they are on the same markets than us) and creating a serious diplomatic case with France.

dorai
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 10 Feb 2009 07:24

Re: MRCA News and Discussion

Postby dorai » 14 Oct 2009 16:07

lol that's hardly the point !

The fact is that France is lying in their marketing.


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