Indian Space Program Discussion

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Kanson
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Kanson »

Pratyush wrote:K,

Thanks for the link, I am afread that I am too Ignorent of the space business to form an opinion which will carry any weight. I will always have questions. And seek to learn from the answeres that I Recieve / Find.

Having said so, from the artilce I conclude that the imported item thought needed by the ISRO was of substandard quality which failed prematurely. The fault to the extent rests with the ISRO, for not being able to disern the quality of the component in question before integerating the same in the satalite.

Secondly, the domestic industies inability to come up with the required item of sufficient quality / Size / weight is a matter of concern.
Pratyush ji, one thing i would have said differently from your statement is of not rushing to the conclusion so fast.

IOW, in official parlance, it means keeping the file open till all doubts are clarified satisfactorily with repeated success.

Substandard quality - just watch the fun.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Kanson »

Varoon Shekhar wrote:"India and China are in undeclared and unofficial race which China assumes that as competition to its status as the sole Czar of Asia."

Very good, Kanson. Your list of the sequence of China's responses to India, is quite astute. If you look at the history of this 'competition' between India and China in the last 60 years, there is almost not a single industry or service, science or technology, sport( not even Table tennis) or entertainment/art, where India followed China. Except for nuclear bombs and missiles, which gives you an idea of the character of China. Even in the nuclear field, it was only in bombs where China led India, not in power reactors or other aspects of nuclear technology. And the amazing thing , is that none of India's behaviour has anything to do with India wanting to be the 'czar' of Asia; India desires multi-polarity as you have observed.

India must get its GSLV mark 2 up and running, and accelerate the GSLV mark 3 programme. Do you think there's a chance of the Mark 3 vehicle overtaking the Mark 2, since these are( presumably) separate programmes with different teams on them?
Thanks Shekhar for sharing this view. Its better we are not sucked in this tit for tat race. For that, we should always do things to our potential and for our benefit and not for mere competing. Sometimes such race, sparks the imagination.

Though they are upset with this loss, they seems not too perturbed to change the program. so i expect things go as planned. MK3 comes as planned but there are chances of accelerating the whole setup, i think. My humble view.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Kanson »

ramana wrote:Kanson, There is a theory that US manages the rise of India such that PRC doesn't get too antsy and develop systems in response which have negative impact on US. Per that theory the US works thru its agents under influence to work to make it feasible. A2P cannisterisation was such a development that would have such a sequence of events. Noe these AUIs need not take funds as long as they think like that.
Well, anything is possible. But going by the way Pranab acquiesced with the Americans in testing Agni-3, may be we have their 'blessings' in China targeted missile development.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by SSSalvi »

Image

Magnified portion of image posted on page 36 under this topic.

You can clearly see vehicle loosing speed @ 56/57 seconds from start ( one of the sensor showing sudden deviation from expected trajectory) and sensor going haywire ( tumbling and showing erratic indications ) @61 seconds due to destruct command.

So thrust stopped after 1st event and therefore destruct command was issued at 2nd event.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by RonyKJ »

The reason for the failure of the GSLV is because it fell into the Bay of Bengal :(
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by vic »

Kanson wrote:^ Lately, I'm entertaining such thoughts. ...............................The two accidents of GSLV and the cryo stage. The early demise of Chandrayaan. I think we need to view this from fresh angle of sabotage. And we also lost W2M satellite immediately after putting in orbit. It is not only me, ISRO people too are thinking in this angle of sabotage to safeguard our program against such savages, I hope.


There is a simple solution to complex problems

Success = work harder x money ^2
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ashokpachori »

Those multi pin (elusive) Connectors...

Image

http://tiny.cc/79pnu
ramana
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ramana »

Those are Saturn V connectors. Look at the lockwiring to ensure they don't back out.

Wait till we get ISRO pictures. Time to let the teams do their evaluations.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Pranav »

With Air Force's new drone, 'we can see everything'

By Ellen Nakashima and Craig Whitlock
Washington Post Staff Writers
Sunday, January 2, 2011; 12:09 AM

In ancient times, Gorgon was a mythical Greek creature whose unblinking eyes turned to stone those who beheld them. In modern times, Gorgon may be one of the military's most valuable new tools.

This winter, the Air Force is set to deploy to Afghanistan what it says is a revolutionary airborne surveillance system called Gorgon Stare, which will be able to transmit live video images of physical movement across an entire town.

...

The development of Gorgon Stare began about 18 months ago. It is based on the work of Air Force scientists who came up with the idea of stitching together views from multiple cameras shooting two frames per second at half-meter resolution. Currently full-motion video is shot at 30 frames per second from one camera mounted on a Predator or the larger Reaper drone. That makes for more fluid video, but also more difficulty in assembling frames quickly to get the wide-area view.

Technological advances now make it possible for a soldier on the ground to receive any portion of a panoramic view in real time, streamed to a portable device about the size of an iPad, Poss said. At the same time, nine other soldiers can get the same or a different view. The images will be stored so analysts can study them to determine, for instance, who planted an improvised bomb or what the patterns of life in a village are.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 90_pf.html
It should be possible to put this system on a satellite ... With a constellation of 24 satellites one can have 4 satellites overhead at any point on the planet, at any time (e.g. GPS). It may make sense to have the satellites beam the video up to satellites in a higher, geostationary orbit, and then down to earth stations.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by juvva »

stage separation techniques, an informative article:
http://daretodreamsid.blogspot.com/2010 ... aunch.html
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ashokpachori »

Kasturirangan declines comment on rocket programme review

To a query whether the review of GSLV programme includes its scrapping if warranted Kasturirangan said: 'The issue is serious. First the committee has to study the issues involved. I am not in a position to comment now.'

The GSLV review committee comes in the wake of the recurring failures of the GSLV rockets. Out of the seven flights till date, only two were successful and one a partial success. Three GSLV rockets along with their satellites failed, costing the nation around Rs.920 crore.

http://www.bombaynews.net/story/727023/ ... mme-review
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Brando »

ashokpachori wrote:Kasturirangan declines comment on rocket programme review

To a query whether the review of GSLV programme includes its scrapping if warranted Kasturirangan said: 'The issue is serious. First the committee has to study the issues involved. I am not in a position to comment now.'

The GSLV review committee comes in the wake of the recurring failures of the GSLV rockets. Out of the seven flights till date, only two were successful and one a partial success. Three GSLV rockets along with their satellites failed, costing the nation around Rs.920 crore.

http://www.bombaynews.net/story/727023/ ... mme-review
This is OT but;

I'd rather have Rs. 920 crore be lost with failed GSLV launches than some politician stealing it any day of the week and I bet most people would agree.

Why are these news media folks always on about the cost of these rockets ?? Rs 920 crore is VERY small compared to what other nations have lost and the rewards are just so much greater than you can quantify in money terms. ISRO is doing work of national importance, the costs are irrelevant.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ramana »

They have dhimmi mind and bat for foreign launches even if they don't know.

Total patsys.

Meanwhile scope and role of the Kasturirangan Committee from above link:
Former Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) chairman K. Kasturirangan, who will head a seven-member committee to look into the future of India's heavy rocket geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle (GSLV) programme, Monday declined to speak on the subject.

Queried about ISRO's announcement to review the entire GSLV programme after the failure of a rocket Dec 25, Kasturirangan, currently a member of the Planning Commission, told IANS: 'It is true a committee has been set up under my chairmanship. But I will not comment now as a team has to go into various issues.'

On Dec 31, ISRO announced the setting up of two expert committees - one to review the geosynchronous satellite launch vehicle (GSLV) rocket programme and the other to look into reasons for Dec 25 rocket failure.

The seven-member GSLV programme review and strategy committee will look into the future of the GSLV rocket programme, assured launch of INSAT/GSAT Series, INSAT-3D as well as Chandrayaan-2. It will also examine the realisation and operationalisation of an indigenous cryogenic engine and the strategy for meeting the demands of communication transponders in the immediate future.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ashokpachori »

Brando wrote:
This is OT but;

I'd rather have Rs. 920 crore be lost with failed GSLV launches than some politician stealing it any day of the week and I bet most people would agree.

Why are these news media folks always on about the cost of these rockets ?? Rs 920 crore is VERY small compared to what other nations have lost and the rewards are just so much greater than you can quantify in money terms. ISRO is doing work of national importance, the costs are irrelevant.
Just as the Opposition’s main role is to question the government of the day and hold them accountable (on any malfeasance) to the public in any given democracy, same applies to media to highlight the misfeasance of ISRO if any.....

You have your opinion, and presswalas their own.
I reiterate, its time for dummy sat!
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ramana »

Ashok, A Rocket launch is valuable slot and launching a real payload is very often the best option as it validates the orbital performance of the rocket and the satellite. Launching dummy is not a clever idea.

Any way do members have some constructive suggestions for this committee

A panel chaired by S.C. Gupta, former member of Space Commission, will guide and facilitate an “internal exercise” by the ISRO chairman, and elicit “views from the ISRO community at all levels to gear up for the complex and challenging space missions ahead.”
In other words as informed people what future roles and missions do the members envsion for the ISRO in the coming years?


For starters I see :
- Moon mining for He3
- Planetary missions
- Better weather survellance sats with coverage of all oceans that determine Indian Ocean weather
- Space science missions
RamaY
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by RamaY »

My wishlist

- Military reconnaissance satellites (dozen or so in both orbits)
- Communication satellites (Should be a satellite highway)
- Weather monitoring
- Geographical Survey
- Moon mission
- Planetary and deep space missions
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Bade »

If one has to prioritize then it should be,
1) Communication sats can also double as recon sats due to orbital constraints.
2) Cartosats, Weather sats and missions like Megha-Tropiques
3) Astronomy/Planetary robotic missions.
4) Manned missions (optional) till we take up inter-planetary robotic missions regularly.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by vasu_ray »

My wishlist would include

a) sats for real time monitoring of the ionosphere changes for assisting the OTH radar network

b) where the Iridium sat network failed economically we could breakeven and fare better due to lower launch costs, perhaps the Avatar will soon become a reality

c) at a commercial level should be in a position to lease transponders to other countries and not vice versa but cultivating a culture of mass production and derivative QC processes

d) create a backbone for Wimax towers spread across the country for enhancing the bandwidth of mobile data applications

e) Bhuvan should be able to give details of land holdings in every part of the country, helps in ISRO integrating into the consciousness of mainstream public

f) same with water flow measurements in rivers and across dams throughout the year for another reliable source of statistics

g) Under an assumption that atmospheric re entry is similar to experiencing a nuclear blast, more research on nuclear blast effects by subjecting various materials of interest to re-entry

h) they should be able to launch or help DRDO launch sats hosting exo-atmospheric interceptor warheads at very short notice so that hostile BMs can be intercepted

i) seriously consider sea-launch in association with the Navy

j) Sponsor a lot more post grads under its HR initiative
ramana
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ramana »

Dont forget ISRO mission is civilian hence asking for military projects is a non-starter.

However if ISRO develops a mission to shoot down an asteroid to prevent repeat of Tauba event then its OK! 8)

Sauce for goose (US) is also sauce for gander (India).
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by Bade »

ISRO is active into this area of research preventing mass civilization extincting events. There is a whole volume of articles published as a book series. Not publicly available for good reason, I guess. ;-)
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ashokpachori »

Ashok, A Rocket launch is valuable slot and launching a real payload is very often the best option as it validates the orbital performance of the rocket and the satellite. Launching dummy is not a clever idea.


It was a clever idea with most of the nations (links given by me earlier), why not India?

Nehru Planetarium director Piyush Pandey:
the next flight of the GSLV should have a dud satellite rather than an operational one which will allow the rocket to be tested.
http://viewstonews.com/index.php/second ... technology

But anyway....

I want the committee to pinpoint the failure by whatever means, Russian consultancy included if the need be, thats all there is to.

Overcome the failure yes - but tolerate, how long?

Accept the failure?
No way........

I don't know the key to success, but the key to failure is trying to please everybody.
Bill Cosby
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by akash_k »

Wipro building India’s fastest supercomputer for space agency
India’s third largest information technology firm, Wipro Ltd, is building what will become the country’s fastest supercomputer for the Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro)—giving the agency critical muscle to crunch large volumes of data as it designs more complex launch vehicles and sets out on ambitious space programmes.

The supercomputer, being built at the Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre (VSSC) in Thiruvananthapuram, will have a processing speed of 200-500 teraflops—one-and-a-half times more powerful than India’s fastest computer now and at least twice faster than Isro’s current supercomputing capability.

One teraflop is the ability to process one trillion mathematical operations in a second.

The supercomputer is likely to be commissioned in about three months, said P.S. Veeraraghavan, director of the space centre.

Supercomputers are used in performing complex operations and computer modelling in applications involving large data sets, such as in designing space vehicles that launch satellites or in modelling and predicting the weather.

The existing supercomputer at VSSC has a speed of 70 teraflops. The centre was looking to go up to 200 teraflops, said Veeraraghavan.

Investment for the new supercomputer runs into a few crores, he said, declining to give a specific figure.

Veeraraghavan said the new supercomputer will be used for advanced computational fluid dynamic (CFD) studies associated with building complex launch platforms.

CFD helps space scientists build virtual prototypes of a launch system, and simulate physical and chemical changes to predict performance, making it directly relevant to designing and developing launch vehicles. Among the systems Isro is working on is a reusable launch vehicle.

VSSC was key in designing and developing launch vehicles such as the workhorse polar satellite launch vehicle and the geosynchronous launch vehicle.

For Wipro, the supercomputer it is building for Isro will help establish the capability of its Supernova range of supercomputers, offered in a partnership with California, US-based Z Research Inc.

Ashok Tripathy, general manager and head (systems and technology division) at Wipro Infotech, said his company is aiming to build a capability of up to 500 teraflops, or 0.5 petaflops, for Isro.

Even at 200 teraflops, Wipro’s supercomputer will top the list of India’s most powerful computers.

The fastest now, at 132.8 teraflops, is Eka at the Computational Research Laboratories Ltd (CRL) in Pune. CRL is a subsidiary of Tata Sons Ltd working in the field of high performance computing services, and research and development. It uses Hewlett-Packard Co.’s (HP) supercomputing technology.

The next fastest in India at 38.1 teraflops is PARAM at the government-owned Centre for Development of Advanced Computing, also in Pune. It is designed for both general science and engineering, and business applications.

“The Eka was made in 2007...we should have doubled our capacity by now, but we’re not making the right investments in terms of money and effort,” said N. Balakrishnan, associate director and head of the Supercomputing Education and Research Centre (SERC) at the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore.

“We should not stop at this now, but go on. We have the capability to go up to petaflops in this country,” he said.

SERC maintains a list of top supercomputers in India, at http://topsupercomputers-india.iisc.ernet.in, complementing the well-known top 500 list at http://www.top500.org, avidly followed by supercomputing fans worldwide.

SERC’s listing shows that the combined capability of India’s top 19 supercomputers is 305.9 teraflops, at an average of 16.1 teraflops.

Supercomputing will be increasingly relevant not only in traditional high-technology areas of defence, space and weather, but also in new fields related to biology and biotechnology, said Balakrishnan.

An indigenous supercomputer at 0.5 petaflops would be a significant achievement for India, but will still not make the top 10 of the most advanced supercomputers in the world.

The world’s most powerful supercomputer is the Tianhe-1A, in Tianjin, China, with a staggering speed of 2.57 petaflops, according to http://www.top500.org.

It displaced the venerable Cray system, the Cray XT5 Jaguar at the US department of energy’s Oak Ridge Leadership Computing Facility in Tennessee, which boasted 1.76 petaflops. The third most powerful is also a Chinese system, the Nebulae, at 1.27 petaflops.

The continued rise of Chinese capability is significant, considering that Eka featured at No. 8 in the global top 500 list in June 2008, but has rapidly headed down since. It currently stands at 47.

The US dominates the list of the world’s fastest 50 supercomputers, with a sprinkling of systems from countries such as France, Germany, Japan, Korea, Brazil, Russia and, of course, China.

International Business Machines Corp. leads the supercomputing market share, followed by Cray Inc. and HP.
http://www.livemint.com/2011/01/0403024 ... l?atype=tp
Last edited by akash_k on 04 Jan 2011 14:26, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by nits »

ISRO to launch Singapore's first satellite in orbit in Feb


The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) is expected to launch Singapore's first satellite in orbit next month after a long delay and a four-fold cost overrun. The launch of the satellite, dubbed X-Sat, has been delayed since 2007. Experts estimated that the delay has raised the cost of satellite four-fold to more than 40 million Singaporean dollar from earlier estimates of 10 million, according to a report in 'The Straits Times' today.

No reasons were given for the delay in the launch of X-Sat last month (December 2010) and it was not linked to the failure of ISRO's Geostationary Satellite Launch Vehicle on Christmas Day.
Article don't mention any specific reason for delays; Gurus - Any insight on this... :?:
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by manish.rastogi »

ramana wrote:Ashok, A Rocket launch is valuable slot and launching a real payload is very often the best option as it validates the orbital performance of the rocket and the satellite. Launching dummy is not a clever idea.

Any way do members have some constructive suggestions for this committee

A panel chaired by S.C. Gupta, former member of Space Commission, will guide and facilitate an “internal exercise” by the ISRO chairman, and elicit “views from the ISRO community at all levels to gear up for the complex and challenging space missions ahead.”
In other words as informed people what future roles and missions do the members envsion for the ISRO in the coming years?


For starters I see :
- Moon mining for He3
- Planetary missions
- Better weather survellance sats with coverage of all oceans that determine Indian Ocean weather
- Space science missions

First and foremost a)I would like them to get a capability to have at least 9-10 launches a year, gradually only!!

b)Then developing a great spy satellite capability to monitor any corner of earth at short notice!!!

c)Also excellent telecommunication capability all over India...

d)and start generating revenues not that I am against any funding or anything....but it will give them more autonomy and research fund!!!
JMT
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ramana »

Kanson, The cause has to be palatable to public. The real one is what we discussed.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ashokpachori »

GSLV failure: ISRO blames German tech


http://www.zeenews.com/news678638.html
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by akash_k »

ISRO to launch two large communication satellites this year
CHENNAI: ISRO today said it plans to launch at least two large communication satellites within this calendar year to tide over the scarcity of transponders due to the failure of two consecutive GSLV missions.

The space agency has also decided to turn to the tried and tested Arianespace for the twin launches scheduled for March and December this year.

"We are going to launch GSAT-8 and GSAT-10 this year. These two satellites will reduce the scarcity of transponders and help us reduce the backlog," T K Alex, Director of the ISRO Satellite Centre , told reporters on the sidelines of the 98th Indian Science Congress here.

Alex said the space agency has also been hiring transponders on other satellites as a temporary solution to clear the backlog.

The 51-m tall Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle, carrying the 2.3-tonne advanced communications satellite GSAT-5P with 36 transponders, exploded barely a minute after it blasted off from the Sriharikota spaceport last month.

This was the second consecutive failure of a GSLV mission in nine months.

On April 15, the GSLV launched using an indigenously developed cryogenic engine failed to put the GSAT-4 in orbit.

Alex said ISRO plans to launch the RISAT, Resourcesat-2, Meghtropiques and Youthsat satellites this year.

He said another communication satellite GSAT-12 will also be launched using a PSLV rocket sometime in the middle of the year.

On the December failure of the GSLV, he said a committee of scientists was going into the reasons for the failure and ways to correct it.

"We will go forward with a positive attitude," he said. Alex said ISRO is also developing its own cryogenic engine and ground tests for the same have been planned for this year.

"There are some very particular issues and we will try to solve them this year and possibly we will come out of it. Then we will be out of the red," he said. "Next year our own GSLV should be able to carry satellites," he said.

Alex said ISRO was also helping universities develop smaller satellites -- nano satellites -- which also could be used to demonstrate nascent technologies.

Five institutes -- IIT-Kanpur, IIT-Mumbai, Indian Institute of Space Technology , Sathyabhama Institute and Vellore Institute of Technology -- have been building nano satellites.
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 222537.cms

PS : apologies if posted earlier.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by akash_k »

ashokpachori wrote:GSLV failure: ISRO blames German tech


http://www.zeenews.com/news678638.html
This surely makes one think more thoroughly about the sabotage angle.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ashokpachori »

akash_k wrote:
ashokpachori wrote:GSLV failure: ISRO blames German tech


http://www.zeenews.com/news678638.html
This surely makes one think more thoroughly about the sabotage angle.
At this point its premature for above statement. There is nothing thorough about it.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by PratikDas »

akash_k wrote:
ashokpachori wrote:GSLV failure: ISRO blames German tech

http://www.zeenews.com/news678638.html
This surely makes one think more thoroughly about the sabotage angle.
That article title should read "Zee News blames German tech". Nowhere in that article is any quote from an ISRO official blaming faulty connectors as the root cause.

Guess what would happen if the mounts between the rocket and the boosters broke or melted. The booster would pull away from the rocket and the primary and backup connectors would have to snap due to the tension. All we know is that the connectors snapped.

Many on BRF, some more than others, have called for live HQ video streams from the rocket. Video from a downward facing camera on the rocket would have shown us, frame by frame, with time-stamps, when the solid rocket booster physically separated and if there were any flames or explosions prior to the self-destruction.

If not that, then land-based, 3D radar-guided, zoomed-in video tracking from 3 or 4 points all around the launch pad would also help.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ramana »

The ZeeNews report is about the origin of the connectors. It has nothing about how they separated.

I wish they don't use snap as that implies broken and that was not the case.

"Using right words to describe is the begining of wisdom!" Chinese proverb.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by juvva »

^^^^
The Zee News article says:
"
.....
Asked if it was a failure of the connectors, Alex said: "A committee has been set up to study the reasons for the connectors to snap. Even the back-up connectors snapped."
........
"
So there was a redundant path which also failed, looks like a catastrophic failure.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ramana »

juvva, the back-up also will separate as at stage separation. I dont think there is any way one path still survives in the GSLV when the connectors separate. Maybe the whole block on which the connectors mounted came loose due to installation lapses.

We really don't know the design details of the inner working of the vehicle.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by SaiK »

If ddm does not grow up, then it would be hard for any aam junta to get a morsel of an understanding what is happening.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by juvva »

ramana wrote:juvva, the back-up also will separate as at stage separation. I dont think there is any way one path still survives in the GSLV when the connectors separate. Maybe the whole block on which the connectors mounted came loose due to installation lapses.

We really don't know the design details of the inner working of the vehicle.
ramana,It seems logical to guess that the backup connectors would be on a separate block. If so, then their is some protection against a glitching connector separation signal, or vehicle vibration....Hence my comment on a catastrophic event leading to the "snapping" of connectors.
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ashokpachori »

juvva wrote:
ramana wrote:juvva, the back-up also will separate as at stage separation. I dont think there is any way one path still survives in the GSLV when the connectors separate. Maybe the whole block on which the connectors mounted came loose due to installation lapses.

We really don't know the design details of the inner working of the vehicle.
ramana,It seems logical to guess that the backup connectors would be on a separate block. If so, then their is some protection against a glitching connector separation signal, or vehicle vibration....Hence my comment on a catastrophic event leading to the "snapping" of connectors.

Your logic would not be on sound footing if you dont know 100%

Assumption is the mother of all the mess ups.

Wait as they are sifting through the sequences of commands generated by the (mission) computer.

Vehicle equipment bay of Ariane-5
The VEB can autonomously orchestrate from start to end all the systems required to control a flight such as engine ignition, separation of the boosters, the upper stage, and operation and release of the individual payloads. Calculations are made by on-board computers and implemented by dedicated electronic systems.

These computers act on information on the velocity and attitude of the vehicle provided by the inertial guidance units. The inertial reference system is the key to flight control and is composed of accelerometers, plus gyroscopes and their electronic units
All equipment in the VEB is duplicated.

ISRO-GSLV
The Redundant Strap down Inertial Navigation System/Inertial Guidance System of GSLV housed in its equipment bay guides the vehicle from lift-off to spacecraft injection. The digital auto-pilot and closed loop guidance scheme ensure the required attitude manoeuvre and guided injection of thespacecraft to the specified orbit. State of the art acvanced Mission computer hardware is used for this purpose.
I have read somewhere they have two on-board computers on GSLV too - just in case.....
SSridhar
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by SSridhar »

juvva wrote:So there was a redundant path which also failed, looks like a catastrophic failure.
Indeed the question therefore is whether the connectors caused the problems or the connector failure is a symptom.
prao
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by prao »

Here's some wild speculation about why the connectors separated: Pretty improbable I think but still who knows, worse mistakes have been made. What if the connectors chosen were:

(1) new design - not flown before.
(2) Did not have a positive lock (quite likely because they have to separate)
(3) The two halves formed a air tight seal and enclosed a sufficient volume of air - unlikely but then I'm not familiar with connectors used for space applications.

If the three condtions are fulfilled then it is possible that upon ascent the pressure force (due to the difference between the internal and external pressures of the seal) could force the connectors to come apart.

Like I said this is very speculative and unlikely - it would mean improper design & selection of the connector that didn't get caught in the filters that ISRO surely has - an unlikely chain of events...

I'm still leaning toward my original theory of unidentified vibration due to the mass/structural changes....
ramana
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by ramana »

prao, Such connectors have crimp socket and pin type connection so they pull them apart. The crimp socket grips the pin to make the electrical contact. Then connectors are held in brackets which have two halves on each side of the separation joint. So one half flies away while the other falls to earth.
prao
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Post by prao »

Ramana, I understand the mechanism. I am suggesting that the two halves of the joint enclose sufficient volume of air and form a tight enough seal. Tight enough that there is sufficient pressure force pushing them apart when the rocket reaches some altitude. Volume should be sufficient so that leakage through small openings isn't enough to equalize the pressure between the outside and inside. The pressure force will of course be given by:

F=deltaP*cross sectional area of connector.

At 12 km altitude the deltaP is max ~80 kPa. If the area is 10 sq cm, the force F works out to 80 N (max). Is this kind of force enough to pull the connector halves apart? I don't know.
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