Indian Space Program Discussion

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KrishG
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 03 Aug 2009 13:32

The 2 MN engine in development will be the one that would propel India into Heavy and Super-Heavy lifting capability. Super Heavy lifters will be necessary if we plane to carry out human exploration of the moon. But, I can say that China is ahead of us in Semi-Cryo engine tech and according to me their YF-120 and it's variants will be the future of Chinese lunar ambitions.

The ISRO Semi-cryo engine surely has the capability to power launchers from the payload range of 2 tons to 100 tons to LEO.

Another question would be the future of solid boosters powering the future Heavy and Super Heavy lifters of ISRO. Russia, Japan and China will most probably not be using solid-powered stages whereas the US and the Europeans would use solid fueled engines on their heavy lifters. Maybe we'll be able to strike a balance between solid, Semi-cryo and cryo.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby rachel » 03 Aug 2009 20:52

disha wrote:
rachel wrote:Our own ISRO comm-sat announced recently (GSAT 11) will be over 4 tons. The latest EADS commsats with 50plus Ku and Ka xponders are about 5-6 tons, IIRC.

There certainly is a need to dramaticaaly boost lifting power.


There certainly is need to dramatically boost lifting power. It is just that the upper limit on the communication satellites currently is approaching 5-6 tons, which is adequately covered by GSLV Mk III. As the communication sats go heavier, it becomes riskier - for eg. the latest EADS comm sat blew up its bus rendering all 50 plus xponders useless. Regarding comm sats there is always a debate about launching many small comm sats with more powerful xponders or launching a single large one. The point is that comm sats is *not* the reason one needs a boost in lifting power.

The boosting power is needed for deep space missions. For human space flights [where human rating is more important than heavy lift capability, which again is important!] An additional advantage is that it reduces the launch cost per kg. Now the launch cost per kg can also be reduced by alternative means, for eg. RLV. ISRO is correct in pursuing both RLV and UMLV. If everything goes right, which rarely does in space exploration, the next decade particularly the period between 2015 - 2020, will be particularly important for ISRO. That is when both RLV/TSTO and UMLV will come into fruition.

So what China has now is immaterial. What is material is what China, US and Russia has in next decade. In next decade, in terms of heavy lift, India will be on par with Russia and China [and in some cases maybe even ahead]. Only US will be ahead of us. Again I will not be surprised if India is on par with US by 2025 in some other areas!


The first version of MK 3 will lift 4 tons. Currently, the Chinese and Jap launchers can lift 4.4 tons. They will not stand still; by the time Mk3 with 4 tons comes on stream, they will have leaped ahead to 5-6 tons.

And by the time our Mk3 is improved to 6 tons, where will they be?

It is unrealistic to say they will stand still and allow us to catch up. You say comm-sats will not go beyond 6 tons. Maybe, but there must be other areas where improvement will occur.

Look, I will be very happy if India crushes China (in space and everything else). I want badly for this to happen, but is it realistic?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 03 Aug 2009 21:24

rachel wrote:The first version of MK 3 will lift 4 tons. Currently, the Chinese and Jap launchers can lift 4.4 tons. They will not stand still; by the time Mk3 with 4 tons comes on stream, they will have leaped ahead to 5-6 tons.

And by the time our Mk3 is improved to 6 tons, where will they be?

It is unrealistic to say they will stand still and allow us to catch up. You say comm-sats will not go beyond 6 tons. Maybe, but there must be other areas where improvement will occur.

Look, I will be very happy if India crushes China (in space and everything else). I want badly for this to happen, but is it realistic?


We should not let our space agenda be based on just competation with with the Chinese. That's how the Soviets did it, and we all know what happened. We should have our own agenda on exploration or earth observation.

All the Chinese do is try to copy what others are already do doing or already have done. They do not have any own, ideas for the future. Even if we think, they'll out-do the US in getting to the Moon or any other thing, What next?? They will wait for the US's next move and agian try to copy and out-do them. Chinese Space program is an un-imaginative copy of what somebody else is trying to do.

We should have our own goals, not that it is a reason for incompetency, and try to attain them. While respecting Chinese efforts, I believe that if even they ever become the most prominent space power, they lack the imagination to set a new agenda of Space exploration before the world.

It's not that ISRO doesn't have the capability to design a heavy lifter, but the payload capability is based on our needs at present. Once, our 2 MN semi-cryo is done, we would have the capability to build launch vehicles with payload of 100 tons to LEO. Again, it depends on what we want to do.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby tejas » 04 Aug 2009 02:40

As long as we have the ability build what we need I am happy. Previously, while GSLV MK I was being inducted our INSAT series had to be sent to Arianespace to be launched because we couldn't do it ourselves. Comm. satellites these days easily weigh in at 6 tons. We cannot develop a launcher overnight if this weight goes up slightly and exceeds our max. payload.

How exactly are we worried about what China is doing, 25 yrs from now when we have been behind them in payload ability from day one ?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Gagan » 04 Aug 2009 03:15

Launchers which can throw greater than 6 tons into GTO can be used to launch two big satellites at a time, Surely there will be applications in boosting ever larger parts into space for building a space station or for mars exploration etc.

By the time ISRO reaches 6 ton GTO category, the chinese launcher growth would have plateaued out to the world peak. We can play catch up and be there with the pioneers, but for a very short while before we go on to doing new things with the rest of the world.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 04 Aug 2009 22:18

Gagan wrote:Launchers which can throw greater than 6 tons into GTO can be used to launch two big satellites at a time, Surely there will be applications in boosting ever larger parts into space for building a space station or for mars exploration etc.

By the time ISRO reaches 6 ton GTO category, the chinese launcher growth would have plateaued out to the world peak. We can play catch up and be there with the pioneers, but for a very short while before we go on to doing new things with the rest of the world.


The Chinese know to copy others. I am fully confident that the moon rocket they will be building will be a Angara-100 rip-off or an Ares-V rip-off. The will be build a moon lander, copy of a Russian or an American version or whatever. They will follow whatever the Americans do because they aren't imaginative enough or do they research more viable alternate methods to get to the moon. We shouldn't be following that path and I am happy we aren't.

I do believe that max capability of MkIII is 6 tons to LEO. ISRO should work on increasing the stage fuel-fraction of all the three stages, especially the upper stage. There are always the option of replacing the core-stage with a cryogenic or a semicryogenic engine which would bring it close to the capability of Ariane-5.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 05 Aug 2009 09:48

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 858057.cms

The above article made me wonder if an array of large mirrors placed at strategic place can effectively blind spy satellites, by creating a large glare effect ?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSSalvi » 05 Aug 2009 16:43

For that to happen you must know the position of SPYsat ... which is unlikely.

The mirrors have to continuously be rotated to direct the sunlight to sat.

Also the spy-satellite has a very narrow view angle because of the required high resolution ... so it is quite possible that the 'bright spot' on earth may just be not visible to camera.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Raj Malhotra » 05 Aug 2009 19:20

My guess and hope:-


GSLV-MarkIII = L110+2xS200+c25 = 4 tons to Geo operational after 2 test launches say in 2012-13

GSLV-MarkIV = L110+4xS200+c25 = 6 tons to Geo operational after 2 test launches say in 2017-18

GSLV-MarkV = L110+4xS200+c50 = 8 tons to Geo operational after 2 test launches say in 2022-25

GSLV-MarkVI = Semi Cryo+4xS200+c50 = 10 tons to Geo operational after 2 test launches say in 2027-28

GSLV-MarkV = Semi Cryo cluster +c?? = 15 tons to Geo operational after 2 test launches say in 2032-35

GSLV-reusable series from 2040 onwards

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby symontk » 05 Aug 2009 20:32

It will not take much to progress from mk3 to mk4 as it just adds two s200's

Also C25 to C50 should not be time consuming

Only technological challenge will be semi cryo and that should be ready by 2020

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 05 Aug 2009 21:26

Raj Malhotra wrote:My guess and hope:-


GSLV-MarkIII = L110+2xS200+c25 = 4 tons to Geo operational after 2 test launches say in 2012-13

GSLV-MarkIV = L110+4xS200+c25 = 6 tons to Geo operational after 2 test launches say in 2017-18

GSLV-MarkV = L110+4xS200+c50 = 8 tons to Geo operational after 2 test launches say in 2022-25

GSLV-MarkVI = Semi Cryo+4xS200+c50 = 10 tons to Geo operational after 2 test launches say in 2027-28

GSLV-MarkV = Semi Cryo cluster +c?? = 15 tons to Geo operational after 2 test launches say in 2032-35

GSLV-reusable series from 2040 onwards


12-14 tons to GTO is the max limit that anybody would design a launcher! All Super Heavy lifters are designed to carry as much payload as possible to LEO and Lunar vicinity. Payload to GTO doesn't carry any importance to such vehicles

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby putnanja » 06 Aug 2009 02:43

End of the orbit for Chandrayaan-1 by January 2010?

BANGALORE: Three international space agencies and scientific institutes that have their scientific payloads on board the moon mission Chandrayaan-1 will be told “unambiguously” to complete their data analyses “at the earliest,” a senior official at the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) told The Hindu.

In the backdrop of the recent star-sensor failure, the agencies will be given a window till January 2010 to collect all data they need as “they cannot take for granted” that the space craft will complete its two-year tenure, the official said.
...
...
Expressing doubts about the predictability of gyroscopes, which now need weekly attitude (orientation) corrections, the official said: “If one of the two gyroscopes were to fail, switching over to the third [back up] one could mean a possible loss of lock [when orientation goes awry].”
...

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby RajeshA » 06 Aug 2009 15:45

India and US build stronger ties in space by Peter J Brown: Asia Times Online

while China has not responded to the signing of the TSA - or the EUMA - per se, any strengthening or streamlining of relations between India and the US will not be taken lightly.

"Beijing will maintain a strict watch on India's advancing defense/space technological ties with the US, Israel or the European countries.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Kakarat » 06 Aug 2009 20:30

Approval for GSAT-10 Communication Satellite

The Union Cabinet today approved undertaking design and development of GSAT-10 spacecraft at a cost of Rs.735.00 crores with a Foreign Exchange component of Rs.634.00 crores.

GSAT-10 satellite with 12 high power Ku-band transponders, 12 C-band and 12 Extended C band India coverage transponders and a navigation payload, will replace the ageing INSAT-2E and INSAT-3B satellites, create additional capacity for DTH like applications and provide on-orbit back-up for the GAGAN navigation payload.

The spacecraft structure is designed for a lift off mass of about 3337 kg with a dry mass of approximately 1432 kg. The Spacecraft employs a proven 1-3K structure used to realize INSAT-4A and 4B satellites. The spacecraft is configured with 2-sided solar array panels to generate around 6 KW of DC power.

GSAT-10 spacecraft is planned to be realized within 20 months.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Picklu » 07 Aug 2009 01:24

Kakarat wrote:Approval for GSAT-10 Communication Satellite

The Union Cabinet today approved undertaking design and development of GSAT-10 spacecraft at a cost of Rs.735.00 crores with a Foreign Exchange component of Rs.634.00 crores.



Is Foreign Exchange componet same as imported component? If yes, then this satellite has more than 86% by cost imported component.

Can any expert explains what are these components? Is there any plan to increase the desi content?
Last edited by Picklu on 07 Aug 2009 22:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Vipul » 07 Aug 2009 19:58

India mulls using nuclear energy to power Chandrayan II: ISRO.

India plans to power some parts of the Chandrayaan II--its next unmanned mission to the moon, with the nuclear energy and the feasibility studies that are being carried out by Indian Space Research Organisation and Bhabha Atomic Research Centre.

"We are thinking of powering some parts of Chandrayaan II with nuclear power and it will power the spacecraft when it revolves aroung the dark side of the moon," Madhavan Nair, chairman, ISRO, told the media today, before accepting the degree of Doctorate of Science conferred on him at the 47th Convoction of IIT-Mumbai.

He said both ISRO and BARC are carrying out the feasibility studies on this, which will be useful for carrying out further experiments to use N-power for Chandrayaan II.
Asked how safe it is to use nuclear power in the mission, he said, "the safety aspects are being worked and safety is crucial when it is launchedfrom ground level tothe orbit."

"To work out the safety, we have to work on newtechnologies and the feasibility studies will help in developing those," Nair said. On using N-power in the deep space probe, he said, "We need nuclear power in those missions which are outside out solar systems but the challenges are very many."

Asked whether laws relating to use of space will allow use of N-power, he said "we have to take utmost care in launching from to ground to the orbit and this aspect we will work out in future."

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arunkumar » 07 Aug 2009 21:34

^^^
This means a deep space mission could be in pipeline and the RTG on CY-2 orbiter would be used as technology demonstrator.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 09 Aug 2009 16:53

Seven Satellites to Guard India: ISRO
ISRO chief G. Madhavan Nair said the Indian Regional Navigational Satellite System (IRNSS) was being developed "considering security related issues".

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Gagan » 09 Aug 2009 19:51

Wow, they could call them the 'Saptrishis'

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 09 Aug 2009 21:57

Arunkumar wrote:^^^
This means a deep space mission could be in pipeline and the RTG on CY-2 orbiter would be used as technology demonstrator.


Nuclear would be good for a mission to Mars, to enable more muscular exploration with longer endurance. I'm surprised NASA never thought to put any windshield-wipers on the solar panels of their multi-million-dollar Mars rovers.

For a mission to the outer solar system or beyond, a nuclear-powered ion-thruster would be able to travel there much more easily. I do hope ISRO is keeping in mind useful missions where it can gather knowledge from, rather than simply seeking a Guinness Book of Records approach, merely to get boasting rights about "4th to the Moon", "3rd to the sun", "3rd out of the solar system", etc. That type of nonsense seems more geared to get politicians more votes, than to do serious science, in which case the money would be better spent elsewhere.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby JaiS » 11 Aug 2009 09:12

From

UB engineering arm in expansion mode


The firm is also designing a noise pollution free launching pad for ISRO.


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Drevin » 11 Aug 2009 14:27

SSridhar wrote:Seven Satellites to Guard India: ISRO
ISRO chief G. Madhavan Nair said the Indian Regional Navigational Satellite System (IRNSS) was being developed "considering security related issues".



This is nice. just the concept is original. indian sub-continent gps. very non-intrusive and wide implications. :twisted:

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Nihat » 11 Aug 2009 15:35

and ISRO is one of the few credible institutions in whose words I truly believe and they will make it happen.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Kailash » 11 Aug 2009 19:35


PratikDas
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 12 Aug 2009 11:44

Check out the new ISRO website!

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby krishnan » 12 Aug 2009 11:48

Its still no where as good as we all should expect. And whats with the scrollers, all govt websites seems to have them

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 12 Aug 2009 11:58

Oh I don't know... I think its charming. I like it. The NASA-like font in the header banner is a bit tongue in cheek though. :D

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Willy » 12 Aug 2009 12:05

This is nice. just the concept is original. indian sub-continent gps. very non-intrusive and wide implications.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

Will it cover China to? Should come in handy in case of war with the Chinese.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arun_S » 12 Aug 2009 12:35

Yes it will provide Indian GPS service to China, Tibet, Mangolia, Japan and Korea.

China will have precision coverage.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Nitesh » 12 Aug 2009 13:02


jaladipc
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 12 Aug 2009 16:37

Bhuvan Beta version is up and Running.

http://bhuvan.nrsc.gov.in/

Hail ISRO for this major success in confronting the western technologies.

Jai Hind.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Drevin » 12 Aug 2009 17:11

Why are those pictures in black and white onlee??

Nice portal. Anyone can register or only for corporates with (ahem) moolah.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby kittoo » 12 Aug 2009 17:13

jaladipc wrote:Bhuvan Beta version is up and Running.

http://bhuvan.nrsc.gov.in/

Hail ISRO for this major success in confronting the western technologies.

Jai Hind.


As much as I want it to succeed, its damn buggy. I am trying from last half hour and can't get it running. I resistered, installed the plugin, used IE instead of Firefox, but it just hangs.

Drevin
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Drevin » 12 Aug 2009 17:17

The name bhuvan is catchy ......

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby jaladipc » 12 Aug 2009 17:28

kittoo wrote:
jaladipc wrote:Bhuvan Beta version is up and Running.

http://bhuvan.nrsc.gov.in/

Hail ISRO for this major success in confronting the western technologies.

Jai Hind.


As much as I want it to succeed, its damn buggy. I am trying from last half hour and can't get it running. I resistered, installed the plugin, used IE instead of Firefox, but it just hangs.


Its really insane..... :D

million times better than google earth/google map. :mrgreen:

Its fast and high def

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby kittoo » 12 Aug 2009 17:32

jaladipc wrote:Its really insane..... :D

million times better than google earth/google map. :mrgreen:

Its fast and high def


Finally got it working an I would say that images are not 4 times high resolution than Google Earth but rather are 4 times lower resolution. How did you get it working? Am I doing something wrong?
Using IE6 with plugin installed and registered. Config is more than enough for it I know that.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Drevin » 12 Aug 2009 17:35

kittoo there is a bhuvan specific thread where you can debug your setup. try ur luck there.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 12 Aug 2009 18:05

How to use it ?? :?: :?:
I have downloaded the plugin and is called 'TerraExplorer'. What should be done! :cry: :cry:

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Vipul » 12 Aug 2009 18:51

Isro eyes mission to Mars; govt sanctions Rs10 crore.

The Indian Space Research Organisation (Isro) today said it has begun preparations for sending a spacecraft to Mars within the next six years.

The government has sanctioned seed money of Rs10 crore to carry out various studies on the experiments to be conducted, the route of the mission and other related details necessary to scale the new frontier, Isro chairman G Madhavan Nair said.

"Already, mission studies have been completed. Now we are trying to collect scientific proposals and scientific objectives," Nair told reporters on the sidelines of a day-long
workshop of the Astronautical Society of India here. He said the space agency was looking at launch opportunities between 2013 and 2015.

Chandrayaan-I, the country's maiden unmanned moon mission, appears to have fired the imagination of young scientists who have taken to space sciences, and Isro plans to
tap this talent for its mission to Mars.

"A lot of young scientists are being brought into the mission, particularly from the Indian Institute of Space Technology, the Physical Research Laboratory, Tata Institute of Fundamental Research and other research laboratories," K Radhakrishnan, director of Vikram Sarabhai Space Centre, said.

He said the space agency would use its Geosynchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle (GSLV) to put the satellite in orbit and was considering using ion-thrusters, liquid engines or nuclear power to propel it further towards Mars.

According to preliminary plans, Isro is likely to send a 500kg spacecraft to Mars and has identified three launch windows -- one each in 2013, 2016 and 2018. Though most Isro spacecraft, including Chandrayaan-I, are powered by solar panels, space scientists
feel energy from sunlight may not be sufficient and are exploring alternative propulsion systems.

"Solar energy may not be sufficient or viable. So we may have to go for nuclear [energy]," TA Alex, director, Isro Satellite Centre, told PTI.

Isro plans to put the spacecraft in orbit around Mars and is yet to decide on the altitude, details of the experiments it intends to carry out and the duration of the mission.

"We are still discussing whether to launch it as our exclusive mission or to inviteinternational experiments," Alex said, adding that these details would be worked out
soon.

India plans to land a robot on the moon in 2012 during the Chandrayaan-II mission and is aiming to put humans in space by 2015. An astronaut training centre is likely to be set up near Bangalore to select a crew of four from around 200 to undertake the seven-day human space flight.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Vipul » 12 Aug 2009 21:07

India to launch ocean satellite in second half of next month.

India would, by the second-half of September, launch Oceansat-2 into the space, Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) Chairman G Madhavan Nair said.

The integration of the spacecraft, Oceansat-2, designed to identify potential fishing zones, assist in sea state forecasting and coastal zone studies and provide inputs for weather forecasting and climate studies, has been completed, Nair told reporters.

"The thermovat test is over and right now, vibration and other tests are progressing. I hope that in next 15 days we would be able to move it to Sriharikota — the spaceport in Andhra Pradesh from where it would be launched, the ISRO chief said adding we hope that by second half of September we should be able to make this launch.

Oceansat-2 is in-orbit replacement to Oceansat-1, launched by the space agency in May 1999 to study physical and biological aspects of oceanography. It would blast off on board India's home grown workhorse Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV) from Sriharikota on the East coast.

The spacecraft would carry an Ocean Colour Monitor (OCM) and a Ku-band pencil beam Scatterometer for the first time, besides a Radio Occultation Sounder for Atmospheric Studies (ROSA), developed by the Italian Space Agency - ASI.

The Scatterometer with a ground resolution cell of 50 kms x 50 kms is expected to provide the wind vector range of four to 24 metres/second with better than 20 per cent accuracy in speed and 20 deg in wind direction.

"The Scatterometer is a very good instrument for getting surface wind on the sea. It again requires for sea state forecasting. And for maritime navigation, the wave height and disturbance is also important," Nair said.

The eight-band OCM is similar to the one in Oceansat-I with appropriate spectral bandwidth modifications based on the experience gained. OCM, with 360 metres spatial resolution and a swath of 1,420 kms, would provide a two-day repeativity, he added.

The rocket would also carry six nano satellites from Europe as piggybacks, Nair, also Secretary in the Department of Space, said .

Considering that Oceansat-2 is a continuity mission to Oceansat-I, the same polar sun-synchronous orbit of 720 kms has been retained, he said adding data from Oceansat-1 was very widely used by fishermen.


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