Indian Space Program Discussion

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 Sep 2009 03:19

BTW, did Switzerland and Turkey pay ISRO?

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 25 Sep 2009 03:30

Yes.
ISIS was the launch broker who negotiated with Antrix

http://www.isispace.nl/index.php?option ... &Itemid=90

SwamyG · Post by **SwamyG** » 25 Sep 2009 06:11

^^^
It does not say how much!

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Sep 2009 07:25

Oceansat-2 sends pictures of Arabian Sea

The images showing ocean features and cloud formation were “very good.” The data was processed and the product was later made available to the users, NRSC sources said.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 25 Sep 2009 15:19

SwamyG wrote:BTW, did Switzerland and Turkey pay ISRO?

The swisscube was launched at a cost of Rs. 49 lakhs (around 100,000 USD). Launch costs are negotiable to an extent and hence not openly revealed. The cost also includes insurance.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 25 Sep 2009 18:06

The Gentle Colossus - Satish Dhawan

We have seen similar reports about Dr. Satish Dhawan from Abdul Kalam and Gopal Raj (in his book).

JimmyJ · Post by **JimmyJ** » 25 Sep 2009 19:34

Water on moons prompt ISRO rethink on Chandrayaan-II experiments
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 056300.cms

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 26 Sep 2009 04:19

JimmyJ wrote:Water on moons prompt ISRO rethink on Chandrayaan-II experiments
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 056300.cms

Thanks for that interesting article - here's an excerpt:

While almost all experiments on Chandrayaan-II will be by Indian scientists, the lunar rover which will land on the moon will be sourced from Russia, Nair said.

ISRO is also looking at ways to send a smaller indigenous version of the rover to the lunar surface.

So are both rovers going to be under Indian control - the Russian-made rover and the indigenously-made rover?
Or will the Russian-made one be under Russian control, and only the Indian-made one under Indian control?

"Right now Chandrayaan-II is full," Nair said adding that scientists were looking at how they could accommodate some additional payloads.

Could GSLV-Mk3 be upgraded to GSLV-Mk3XL or GSLV-Mk4, for an expanded payload capacity?
Hey, if you're going to go all that way, you might as well haul as much as you can.

Last but not least - if the thin water layer on the lunar surface is the result of the solar wind, then wouldn't measurements of this water also be a good indicator of the level of Helium-3 in the soil, since it too is brought by the same solar wind? Follow the water layer to find the Helium-3.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 26 Sep 2009 13:07

Sanjay M wrote:
JimmyJ wrote:"Right now Chandrayaan-II is full," Nair said adding that scientists were looking at how they could accommodate some additional payloads.
Could GSLV-Mk3 be upgraded to GSLV-Mk3XL or GSLV-Mk4, for an expanded payload capacity?
Hey, if you're going to go all that way, you might as well haul as much as you can.

Last but not least - if the thin water layer on the lunar surface is the result of the solar wind, then wouldn't measurements of this water also be a good indicator of the level of Helium-3 in the soil, since it too is brought by the same solar wind? Follow the water layer to find the Helium-3.

The 4.4 ton GTO capability of Mk III is more than enough for Chandrayaan-2.

Sanjay M wrote:
JimmyJ wrote:While almost all experiments on Chandrayaan-II will be by Indian scientists, the lunar rover which will land on the moon will be sourced from Russia, Nair said.

ISRO is also looking at ways to send a smaller indigenous version of the rover to the lunar surface.
So are both rovers going to be under Indian control - the Russian-made rover and the indigenously-made rover?
Or will the Russian-made one be under Russian control, and only the Indian-made one under Indian control?

ISRO will only be incharge of the landing of the Russian rover, while the Russians will take over the controls after that. There is a comprehensive data sharing agreement on that. The exact mission of the Russian river be jointly decided. Both the Indian rover and the Russian rover will have a common lander and will land at the same time after which both go their on ways.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 27 Sep 2009 04:54

Thanks for your reply.

How will these rovers be powered? Will they both be solar-powered? If there is to be exploration of the cold traps in the permanently-shadowed regions at the poles, then this would require RTG power.

I still think that expanded payload capacity would be better, since there is a desire to do additional science investigation in the wake of this water discovery. Indeed, it would be criminal not to seek ways to accommodate the water discovery into the mission plans. I know some of you will crib about how accommodating Kalam's MIP suggestion and the international payloads somehow harmed the CY-1 mission, but I think that's a lot of speculative whining.

The poles are of crucial significance in the search for water on the Moon, and the ability of the thinly deposited surface water to migrate to the poles across evaporation-condensation cycles then provides an obvious reason to believe that more significant water concentrations exist, besides the possibility of cometary impacts. 4 billion years is a long time to accumulate water, even from the solar wind. I'm wondering if the regolith Helium-3 concentrations at the poles would also likewise be better.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 27 Sep 2009 08:24

Businessweek:

A Win for India’s Space Program

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 27 Sep 2009 18:47

^^

NASA has faced several space mission failures and who can forget tragic end of space shuttle Columbia and the crew perished during entry, 16 minutes prior to landing

Did any ISRO official ever say that? I see only one fanboy club site on CY 'quoting' that here without sources or attribution to ISRO:

http://www.chandrayaan-i.com/index.php/ ... d-off.html

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 27 Sep 2009 18:52

Sanjay M wrote:Thanks for your reply.
How will these rovers be powered? Will they both be solar-powered? If there is to be exploration of the cold traps in the permanently-shadowed regions at the poles, then this would require RTG power.

Since ISRO rover's speculated weight is 15 kg, carrying a RTG would eat into useful carrying capacity since RTG requires very heavy shielding. Even out of the 15kg, the useful science payload part would be only IMVHO 5-6KG or so and the rest comprising of body structure weight,batteries, wheels, heating/cooling arrangements etc. So the only payload on the rover , I think would be 1.) Stereo camera 2.) Some sort of spectrometer like the one used in mars sojourner rover. So it could either be solar power or power thru a cable from the lander.

just my thoughts.

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 27 Sep 2009 19:07

harbans wrote:
NASA has faced several space mission failures and who can forget tragic end of space shuttle Columbia and the crew perished during entry, 16 minutes prior to landing
Did any ISRO official ever say that? I see only one fanboy club site on CY 'quoting' that here without sources or attribution to ISRO:

How does it make difference if ISRO said that or not?

Today, world is competitive. Space missions are not charity but a business and that's a fact. All those discovery propaganda on NASA's humanity mission is part of this business. Competitors use your failures to show you down in the market. Remember how western agencies used to mock at ISRO in 1980's and 1990's?

These humanity space missions of NASA have achieved nothing for others, other than stamping Western monopoly on Moon. One more instance of "only we five Pure(P5) can have Nuke tech. Others buy from us only. Noone is allowed to develop Nuke tech. for themselves".

There is nothing wrong if ISRO is being marketing-savvy and using western marketing tactics on the nay-sayers.

Though I doubt if ISRO used such tactic, but I would be happy tobe proved wrong. I have yet to see ISRO learning PR strategies. They lag behind westerners who are very aggressive and lethal in their marketing propagandas and spend billions of dollars in marketing their space mission worldwide.

ISRO has a long long way to go and has a lot to learn from business leaders like NASA who know how to spread propaganda of "we serve humanity" and put technology sanctions on others. Have the cake and eat it too.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 27 Sep 2009 20:59

Screen grab of the PSLV C-14 launch.

I have labelled the image to show the relative size of the rocket and the jet exhaust plume. The jet exhaust is ~ 3 - 4 times the size of the rocket ! The first stage engines which are producing that jet plume must be ~ 1/3rd of the rocket size itself!

Imagine the power that engine is capable of pushing out a jet exhaust plume that far away!!!

This first stage is one of the largest solid rocket engines in the world.

Great going ISRO.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 28 Sep 2009 04:52

Some commie site seems to be claiming ISRO officials are superstitious types, based on the fact that there was no PSLV-C13.

Arunkumar wrote:Since ISRO rover's speculated weight is 15 kg, carrying a RTG would eat into useful carrying capacity since RTG requires very heavy shielding. Even out of the 15kg, the useful science payload part would be only IMVHO 5-6KG or so and the rest comprising of body structure weight,batteries, wheels, heating/cooling arrangements etc. So the only payload on the rover , I think would be 1.) Stereo camera 2.) Some sort of spectrometer like the one used in mars sojourner rover. So it could either be solar power or power thru a cable from the lander.

just my thoughts.

Good thoughts - makes sense. But again, a rectenna can be very lightweight, especially if one was directly built into the indigenous rover's solar panels to supplement their solar energy intake, allowing the rover to receive microwave-beamed power from the orbiter. This in turn would allow the rover to explore areas where no direct solar illumination is available, and which would otherwise be off-limits to it.

A microwave-power transmission experiment could also be claimed by ISRO as a useful test of a technology with earthly applications, that could be used to supply the country with energy harvested from outer space. As a matter of fact, given the negligeable atmosphere on the Moon to attenuate the beam, you might not have to use microwave-band, and could even use infrared or something higher for better power density.

The more I think about it, the more I feel that ISRO should use this mission to conduct a beamed power transmission experiment, which could facilitate shadow-region exploration as well as demonstrate the utility of beamed power transmission for earthly applications. An orbital beam power system could provide useful energy to other future robotic systems operating inside the cold shadowed regions. I think the only constraint is that such an orbital power relay would be best-suited for a lunar-synchronous orbit.

What do you all think?

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 28 Sep 2009 10:27

Water, water, everywhere...

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... 19SMRH.DTL

http://features.csmonitor.com/innovatio ... s-craters/

Until now, researchers expected subsurface ice to form as water vapor entered the ground. When it reached cold enough depths, it would form ice between the dust grains – leading to roughly a 50-50 mix of ice and dust.

One clue that this was not the case came as the team reviewed pictures of the craters over time and saw that the ice disappeared more slowly than they expected. If the ice is half dust, the ice would disappear from view quickly as more dust became exposed. But the ice lingered in the team’s images for some 200 days as it gradually changed directly from solid to gas.

The purity of the ice – estimated at 99 percent water, 1 percent dust –reopens the question of how these deposits formed.
...
“Now we see multiple instances of very pure ice” over wide swaths of the Martian surface. “It looks like pure ice is the norm and dirty ice is the anomaly.”

Finding such large amounts of pure ice father south than models indicated point to a damper atmosphere some 10,000 years ago, when changes to Mar’s orbit triggered a large-scale retreat of ice toward the poles, the researchers say.

The team estimates that the atmosphere back then held up to twice as much moisture as it does today.

Now that makes Mars more attractive than ever! With so much water, it's surely shaping up to be a place that we could colonize in the far future.

Shouldn't the Moon still take priority for the foreseeable future though?
After all, it does have the Helium-3!

But here's an interesting tidbit that ISRO should consider while planning for its upcoming Mars orbiter mission:

http://www.eweek.com/c/a/Green-IT/Disco ... sh-500709/

"We now know we can use new impact sites as probes to look for ice in the shallow subsurface," said Megan Kennedy of Malin Space Science Systems in San Diego, Calif., a member of the team operating the orbiter's Context Camera.

Last but not least - don't forget the Martian Thorium:

http://marsprogram.jpl.nasa.gov/odyssey ... 04257.html

We cannot ignore the Saffron Planet!

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 28 Sep 2009 15:12

Some commie site seems to be claiming ISRO officials are superstitious types, based on the fact that there was no PSLV-C13.

The RISAT-1 was supposed to go on C13. Once this is decided the vehicle retains it's flight number. So PSLV-C13 might be launched in Feb 2009. Anyway, 13 is not even considered unlucky in Indian culture. In Sikhism, 13 considered the most lucky number. So, no issues there. The flight is delayed due to some problems with RISAT-1.

Ofcouse, ISRO never forgets to send everyone of it's 'to-be-launched' satellites' models to Tirupathi do get Lord Venkateshwara's blessings before launch.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 28 Sep 2009 15:31

Ofcouse, ISRO never forgets to send everyone of it's 'to-be-launched' satellites' models to Tirupathi do get Lord Venkateshwara's blessings before launch.

I dont mind even if they are superstitious. The results are fantastic...
Although Off Thread, how about ADA sending LCA to Tirupathi loaded with flowers and releasing them over the temple...

-Nitin

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Sep 2009 15:35

Some commie site seems to be claiming ISRO officials are superstitious types, based on the fact that there was no PSLV-C13.

which site ? link please.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 28 Sep 2009 16:25

'Chandrayaan-2 will try to get details about water on moon'
Has ISRO started receiving scientific proposals for this moon flight?

Yes, suggestions have started coming in and the process of evaluating them will start soon.

So, ISRO Chief confirms CY2 is receiving foreign interests.
Its still unclear if CY2 will be an extension of CY1 with an additional lander and rovers?

Chandrayaan II will be technically challenging: Annadurai
Asked whether the same scientists of Chandrayaan I will be working for Chandrayan II, he said "yes" and added that even the same participants from abroad will be in the mission.

Interest is shown by other countries like Russia and "there is a chance of Russia participating in Chandrayaan II mission," he said.

When asked how long it will take to analyse all the data collected from Chandrayaan I mission, Annadurai said "it will take at least two to three and a half years for complete analysis."

Is mission director Dr M Annadurai unaware of the confirmed Russia participation, or the design can change?

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 28 Sep 2009 16:30

@rahul
You are probably seeking This and This

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 28 Sep 2009 16:37

animesharma wrote:@rahul
You are probably seeking This and This

thanks.
given the large number of scientists who are either christians or hindus, no wonder ideas of auspicious/inauspicious from these two religions are a part of ISRO practice !

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 28 Sep 2009 17:28

Its ok to have superstition, that tells ISRO ppl are still human. And its acceptable as long as they don't stamp Launch vechiles or sats with good luck signs..

I was impressed by the fact that every ISRO mission is preceded by a trip to tirupati. Every profession has similar practices. In my dad's mine, they have a small statue of kali, and who ever goes to work inside prays once.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 28 Sep 2009 17:49

The main superstition I'm disliking in connection with space missions, is the tinfoil-hat conspiracy crap.

"phoren instroomint paylodz are kaanspeeracy to steal credit from Indians, and result from bribes" etc, etc

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 29 Sep 2009 12:27

Plans for a bigger Cryo engine

Our next step is to develop a bigger cryogenic engine with a stress of 20 tonnes compared to 7.5 tonnes now,” he added.

Arun_S · Post by **Arun_S** » 30 Sep 2009 09:23

Indigenous cryogenic engine developed
Express News Service
First Published : 29 Sep 2009 07:31:16 AM IST

TIRUNELVELI: The first indigenous cryogenic engine that is set to be installed on GSLV Mk II was flagged off from Mahendragiri Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre here to Sriharikota on Monday. ... . . . .

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 30 Sep 2009 13:21

Kailash wrote:Plans for a bigger Cryo engine

Our next step is to develop a bigger cryogenic engine with a stress of 20 tonnes compared to 7.5 tonnes now,” he added.

The next step should be to develop a CE-20B with expander cycle allowing multiple restarts. The present CE-20 would be a gas generator cycle engine. I don't see ISRO going for higher thrust cryoengines and 200 kN will be the limit. A CE-20 with expander cycle will the GTO performance of GSLV-Mk III.

The semicryo is being developed for the common-liquid core stage which will most probably be a ground ignited stage so, cryogenic engines will only power the upper stages of future LVs.

Marcus · Post by **Marcus** » 30 Sep 2009 13:36

[youtube]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/w6p2-v8A6rc&hl ... ram><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/w6p2-v8A6rc&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/youtube]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6p2-v8A6rc
Listen to Part 1 - 6

I think moon has more than water to revel to us . I hope ISRO would be accountable to the Indian tax payers.

prasadha · Post by **prasadha** » 30 Sep 2009 15:22

Marcus wrote:I think moon has more than water to revel to us . I hope ISRO would be accountable to the Indian tax payers.

I wonder where we get these sudden attacks of conscience and realization about ISRO and all other organizations being accountable to the tax payer. If I remember correctly, we don't expect such forthcoming accountability from the politicians to whom we vote.

Don't we find it convenient to flog a horse (or in this case ISRO) which can't fight back?

Back to topic now.

Prasad

Praveen · Post by **Praveen** » 01 Oct 2009 11:40

ISRO develops tech to boost satellite life by five years

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 02 Oct 2009 04:14

Praveen wrote:ISRO develops tech to boost satellite life by five years

There we go - ion propulsion technology - useful for station-keeping and also for inter-planetary propulsion. I hope they consider using it on a future Chandrayaan lunar mission, or even on a mission to Mars.

Yogi_G · Post by **Yogi_G** » 02 Oct 2009 09:16

Arun_S wrote:Indigenous cryogenic engine developed
Express News Service
First Published : 29 Sep 2009 07:31:16 AM IST

TIRUNELVELI: The first indigenous cryogenic engine that is set to be installed on GSLV Mk II was flagged off from Mahendragiri Liquid Propulsion Systems Centre here to Sriharikota on Monday. ... . . . .

I was waiting for this news for a long time, there was a big window of time during which no news on the status of the indigenous cryo engine was available. I plan to be present in the location during the GSLV launch, its not a long drive away from Chennai. Perhaps could be a good opportunity for a BR meet like the Aero India was? huh? huh?

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 03 Oct 2009 10:03

Yogi_G wrote:I was waiting for this news for a long time, there was a big window of time during which no news on the status of the indigenous cryo engine was available. I plan to be present in the location during the GSLV launch, its not a long drive away from Chennai. Perhaps could be a good opportunity for a BR meet like the Aero India was? huh? huh?

Hey, do us a favour and be sure to take some good quality video, will you?
Then post it on Youtube.

There's a growing appetite for this stuff. One day, Indians from all over will flock to see these launches, as the Indian Space Age gets underway.

I can't wait for the GSLV-Mk3 launch. That will be a landmark event - something to see and to record for posterity. This will be the launch platform that puts our astronauts in space.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 03 Oct 2009 10:35

Here's an interesting approach to remote sensing:

http://www.popsci.com/military-aviation ... -map-earth

Because GOCE is so low, it’s actually riding along the fringes of the atmosphere. It’s aerodynamic design helps it cut through any remaining air there, but sleekness alone isn’t enough. The gravity measurements require the craft remain stable in free fall; any interference from air at this altitude could skew the gravity data and jeopardize the mission’s quality. So GOCE was fitted with an electric ion thruster that continuously offers tiny bursts of thrust to compensate for any drag the satellite encounters.

ISRO should develop this type of technology, as it may come in handy for our own remote-sensing applications, whether around Earth or around other heavenly bodies.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 03 Oct 2009 15:09

Sanjay M wrote:I can't wait for the GSLV-Mk3 launch. That will be a landmark event - something to see and to record for posterity. This will be the launch platform that puts our astronauts in space.

It's the GSLV that's supposed to be human rated. Well, the 1st stage of GSLV isn't helping for sure. Human rating solid stages is a real risk and it's ISRO's first such task so I would want them to be on the safer side and avoid solids in the whole rocket. A cluster of 4 Vikas engines would be ideal. The solid stage is really a serious risk. If something goes wrong on that first stage there is no coming back.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 04 Oct 2009 09:13

KrishG wrote:It's the GSLV that's supposed to be human rated. Well, the 1st stage of GSLV isn't helping for sure. Human rating solid stages is a real risk and it's ISRO's first such task so I would want them to be on the safer side and avoid solids in the whole rocket. A cluster of 4 Vikas engines would be ideal. The solid stage is really a serious risk. If something goes wrong on that first stage there is no coming back.

I understand that SRBs can't be throttled down or switched off, but can't we somehow just design around that? To me, SRBs have the greater reliability, due to their simplicity.

It seems to me that when things go seriously wrong, they just explode anyway. So it's not like throttling down or switching off can do a whole lot.

So the GSLV-Mk1 is what's carrying the manned mission into space? Why can't the Mk3 be man-rated instead, since it could carry a whole lot more, and become the better workhorse?

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 04 Oct 2009 11:21

And on the one occasion that GSLV-MK1 failed it was the liquid engine booster that malfunctioned. The solid stages did not fail on any of the PSLV or GSLV missions.

The space shuttle is man rated with SRBs - one failure so far (Challenger)

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 04 Oct 2009 14:33

juvva wrote:And on the one occasion that GSLV-MK1 failed it was the liquid engine booster that malfunctioned. The solid stages did not fail on any of the PSLV or GSLV missions.

The space shuttle is man rated with SRBs - one failure so far (Challenger)

Liquid-engines can be switched off if something goes wrong, solid can't. Anyway, the solid debris will surely hit the aborting OV. I important thing here is that even though GSLV hasn't had a 1st stage failure, that possibility is not zero and it is much much higher than that of SSSRBs. If you see some SRB failure videos you'll know why the Russians and Chinese avoid it. Even the Europeans, who are planning to launch their future manned-ATV on Ariane-5 have decided to have conventional payload fairing and extra protection below the crew module, Ares I also has the latter protection. And the SSSBs are also designed in such a way that a failure would result in explosion directed away from the core stage. But, the payload limit of GSLV will surely limit the amount of extra-protection that can be put under the crew module of a human-rated GSLV.

juvva wrote:And on the one occasion that GSLV-MK1 failed it was the liquid engine booster that malfunctioned. The solid stages did not fail on any of the PSLV or GSLV missions.

The problem with SRBs in manned launch vehicles is NOT the possibility of SRB failure! The problem is with terminating the SRBs while aborting off a launch vehicle that has failed FOR ANY REASON, including a liquid strap-on-booster failure.

The root cause of the abort DOES NOT MATTER. The issue is the survivability of the abort. Liquid boosters can be shutdown rapidly and don't need to be blown apart into tiny pieces. SRBs are far more dangerous in an abort regardless of their reliability.

Here is Delta-II launch failure video.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 04 Oct 2009 19:20

ISRO seeks Russian spaceship for manned flight.

As part of the nation's ambitious programme of manned space flights, Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) is seeking a Russian spaceship for sending "space tourists" in orbit, an official said.

"ISRO has applied for acquiring a spaceship for sending space tourists," Russian space agency "Roskosmos" spokesman Alexei Krasnov said.

He said the deal would be commercial and two space travellers could fly in the non-reusable 'Soyuz TMA' ship to be piloted by a Russian cosmonaut. Krasnov, however, did not say about the value of the contract. "It depends on the route and duration of the flight, which are yet to be finalised," he said.

According to Russian media "Roskosmos" charges about USD 35 million for a space tourist's 10-day flight to International Space Station (ISS).

During President Dmitry Medvedev's maiden India visit last year Moscow and New Delhi inked a space accord, under which Russia will help ISRO in training Indian astronauts and provide know-how for building indigenous spaceship for the national programme of space flights.

In April 1984 India's first astronaut Sqn Ldr Rakesh Sharma had travelled in to space aboard the Russian Soyuz T-11 spaceship and worked for a week at the Soviet orbital station Salyut-7.