Indian Space Program Discussion

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSridhar » 18 Apr 2010 06:35


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby ramdas » 18 Apr 2010 06:48

KrishG,

1) How far has the development of the semi-cryo progressed ? My expectation is it wll take 10 years even though ISRO says 6 years...

2) what is the chamber pressure of the SCE ? 150-200 bar ? More than 200 bar will make development very difficult (RD-170 took 12 yrs after all the experience USSR had in staged comb engines) and <150 bar may be very low for such a type of engine.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 18 Apr 2010 07:06

http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2406/ ... 404300.htm

A project to develop a semi-cryogenic engine is sought to be revived 36 years after Vikram Sarabhai initiated it.


http://www.dare.co.in/news/others/semi- ... ystems.htm

Friday, 19 December 2008 00:00

The Union Cabinet approved development of Semi Cryogenic Engine technology at an estimated cost of Rs. 1,798 crores with a foreign exchange component of Rs. 588 crores. The objective is designing, fabricating and testing this advanced technology in India in six years time. This will be an important step towards self-reliance in advanced space transportation technology for India.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Gerard » 19 Apr 2010 01:34


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 19 Apr 2010 05:24

According to the article I linked to above, an estimate was given at 3 years to develop semi-cryogenic technology. That would have made it the better bet by far instead of 18 years to go for cryogenic tech.

Why was it considered prudent to go for cryo before semi-cryo, especially when the latter offers better cost/kg? After all, LH2 is neither easy to come by nor to experiment with, as contrasted with RP-1 kerosene and LOX. It would seem natural to develop semi-cryo first, since cryo is much more difficult.

Supposing we had gone in for developing semi-cryo first, then we might have been spaceborne much sooner, and into the commercial space market.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Narad » 22 Apr 2010 00:28

Sanjay M wrote:Why was it considered prudent to go for cryo before semi-cryo, especially when the latter offers better cost/kg? After all, LH2 is neither easy to come by nor to experiment with, as contrasted with RP-1 kerosene and LOX. It would seem natural to develop semi-cryo first, since cryo is much more difficult.

Supposing we had gone in for developing semi-cryo first, then we might have been spaceborne much sooner, and into the commercial space market.


"The man to blame is [Satish] Dhawan," says Prof. H.S. Mukunda of the Indian Institute of Science (IISc), Bangalore, who headed the committee that prepared the report on the semi-cryogenic engine. "He, for some reason, went along with the arguments of people involved with the Vikas engine project and did not even give us a hearing. Even U.R. Rao [former Chairman of ISRO] was extremely unhappy with our proposal."



http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl2406/stories/20070406001404300.htm

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 22 Apr 2010 03:06

Can anyone explain what Satish Dhawan's or UR Rao's rationales were in vetoing semi-cryogenic research? Was there some reason why we shouldn't have tried to walk before trying to run?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Gerard » 22 Apr 2010 03:19

UDMH/N2O2 engines have other applications. Possibly the decision to concentrate scare resources on the Vikas engine was motivated by that consideration.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 22 Apr 2010 03:41

You mean cryo tech was important for upper stage on ICBMs? And thus kerosene/LOX semi-cryo engines were not so important when India had already invested in solid fuelled rockets used for shorter-ranged missiles?

It still might have been good to keep semi-cryo tech as a fallback, since it's cheaper to develop and work with.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Gerard » 22 Apr 2010 03:59

Cryo and semi-cryo engines are unsuitable for modern ICBMs

UDMH/N2O2 is not cryo tech. Such fuels allow missiles to sit in their silos for decades, fueled and ready to fire within minutes (e.g. Russian SS-18).
Would India have large diameter solid and UDHM/N2O2 technology today if it had concentrated on semi-cryo then?
If a political decision is made to develop heavy ICBMs, India already has the technology. Semi-cryo and cryo is useless for that.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby chaanakya » 23 Apr 2010 02:03

Katare wrote:ISRO's Radhakrishnan reveals on NDTV that govt will give its approval for manned space mission within next two months. The cost would be Rs12400Corer and it'll take 7 years from the approval.


Planning Commission pulled up for hurdles in ISRO project

New Delhi: A Parliamentary panel has sternly told the Planning Commission not to interfere in the decision making process of ISRO, particularly in the ambitious Human Space Flight (HSF) programme.

"The Committee fails to understand that when the Space Commission, the highest policy making body of the Department of Space, has given the go ahead to this (HSF) programme, why stumbling blocks were created at the government level.

"Planning Commission should not come in the way of conception and realisation of a programme only because it is instrumental in providing allocations for the Department."

These strong words are in the 206th report of the Parliamentary Standing Committee on Science and Technology, Environment and Forests which was tabled in the Lok Sabha today. The Committee is headed by Rajya Sabha member T Subbarami Reddy.

Government has already approved the pre-project activities for the Rs 12,400 crore human space flight project.

"We are now seeking phase-wise approvals for various steps in the project," an Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) spokesman said when asked to comment on the report.

The Committee appeared miffed at the drastic reduction in the allocation for the HSF at the Revised Estimates stage in 2009-10.

In its report, the Committee noted that while the HSF was allocated Rs 238 crore at the Budget Estimates stage, the was reduced to Rs 30 crore at the Revised Estimates stage. ( WELL ISRO was not able to spend the money by JAN/FEB so figure recasted, don't know why Planning Comm. is to be blamed for ISRO. RE doesn't go to Plg Comm)

It said that the Department of Space had submitted the Budget Report for the HSF which was reviewed and cleared by the Space Commission, as well as, by a high-level Committee chaired by the Deputy Chairman, Planning Commission.

"However, it was indicated through the subsequent discussions that the Human Space Flight programme could be taken up in phases and the first phase should focus on developing critical technologies such as crew module, service module, crew escape system, environment control and life support systems," the Committee report said.

It noted that the RE provision, therefore, had been reduced in view of the pre-project activities.

The Committee expressed the view that the HSF should not only be taken up in the right earnest but also be made successful at the earliest.

"The Committee strongly recommends that the right to take final decision in scientific and technical matters should be vested with the Department of Space only and financial constraints should not be allowed to come in its way towards progress of these crucial and critical programmes," the report said.

PTI

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Bade » 23 Apr 2010 07:44

With so many polar earth missions planned and in existence over the past decade both for land mapping and now ocean mapping be it ocean biology, altimetry and precipitation estimates which all help in building up inputs for climate modeling and weather forecasting, why has ISRO not invested adequately in capturing all this data ?

Being a low latitude country, we cannot have ground station receivers near the poles like US, Russia or the Europeans and to some extent what the Chinese have. These are extremely helpful so as to not lose any polar mission data. One way is to use a relay system of Geostationary satellites to down-link the data to stations in India. A set of 3-4 satellites around the globe would do. That would cost only 400-500 crores and probably can be launched in one go to a GTO orbit, with a downsized INSAT-like payloads dedicated for such purposes.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby A Nandy » 24 Apr 2010 21:07

Any more news on hypersonic demonstrator that ISRO was working on. Seems the USAF tried something and it failed.

http://orbiter-forum.com/showthread.php?t=15410


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 30 Apr 2010 05:20

James Cameron to Build 3D Camera for Mars Rover

Why doesn't India go in for something similar for its moon rover?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Bolasani » 30 Apr 2010 07:55


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 30 Apr 2010 09:34

Japanese private space group wants to put bipedal humanoid robot on the Moon by 2015:

http://news.cnet.com/8301-17938_105-20003791-1.html


Gee, that's a pretty fast timetable for something they've only just announced. Will they beat the Chandrayaan-2 rover mission to the Moon?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 30 Apr 2010 17:22


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSSalvi » 01 May 2010 09:48

Bade wrote:With so many polar earth missions planned and in existence over the past decade both for land mapping and now ocean mapping be it ocean biology, altimetry and precipitation estimates which all help in building up inputs for climate modeling and weather forecasting, why has ISRO not invested adequately in capturing all this data ?

Being a low latitude country, we cannot have ground station receivers near the poles like US, Russia or the Europeans and to some extent what the Chinese have. These are extremely helpful so as to not lose any polar mission data. One way is to use a relay system of Geostationary satellites to down-link the data to stations in India. A set of 3-4 satellites around the globe would do. That would cost only 400-500 crores and probably can be launched in one go to a GTO orbit, with a downsized INSAT-like payloads dedicated for such purposes.


Bade saab,

In india we have one station with several antennas to acquire data from all the satellites that have been planned and already operational.

Most of the satellites image data in morning between 8AM and 2PM ( IST ).

Each of these antennas can receive data from almost any of the Indian and ( if required ) from other country satellites also. So by multiplexing these antennas we can receive data from all satellites.. in fact it is possible to predict and analyze the sufficiency of these antennas whenever any new mission is added. If need be a new antenna may be added.

Regarding coverage of Indian region: The station for acquiring the data is strategically located that FULL india is covered with that station.

As far as data over other areas is concerned there are many ways to overcome this hurdle:

1. The data can be stored onboard when the satellite is acquiring data but not visible to the station .. this stored data can be dumped when the satellite is visible at night over the Indian facility ( anyway the night time imaging is not done with optical sensors so the station can receive stored data.

2. The world is full of enterpruners : some countries in the polar region have already established facility for dumping the data at cost basis.. and any country can use it by paying fees.

3. As regards India's own facility in polar region .. we require to own a land in that place. Jai Gangotri mata etc.
The problem of transmitting data from polar station to Geosynchronous satellite ( low Elevation angle for Geo sat to polar regions ) was identified by yours truly several years back.

The quantum of data from remote sensing satellites is atleast 10times more than the average transponder so time for which the geo link has to be used with several satellites was also analyzed. Although we have several geosync sats .. only one can be suitably visible from the place that i have implied above.
Last edited by SSSalvi on 01 May 2010 09:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby svinayak » 01 May 2010 09:53

SSSalvi wrote:
In india we have one station with several antennas to acquire data from all the satellites that have been planned and already operational.

Is there redundancy built in for all these facility with other locations. This is needed for the event of sabotage or first strikes

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSSalvi » 01 May 2010 09:57

Acharya wrote:
SSSalvi wrote:
In india we have one station with several antennas to acquire data from all the satellites that have been planned and already operational.

Is there redundancy built in for all these facility with other locations. This is needed for the event of sabotage or first strikes


I am sure the people responsible to operate these systems must have given thought to this aspect and planned . :wink:

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 02 May 2010 01:12

ISRO's Antrix accepting some 'Global Award':




Seems like they're getting into the photo-opping a lot

I still wish they'd put some cameras onboard their rockets first. That would do a lot more to gain public interest and support than getting on the awards ceremony circuit.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Arunkumar » 02 May 2010 17:50

Seems to be the 'global sustainability research award' from the link below
http://www.isro.gov.in/news/pdf/Antrix_award_2010.pdf

Their website is professionally done without any clutter in contrast to other sarkari websites like that of ISRO.
http://www.antrix.gov.in/index.html

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby nits » 03 May 2010 14:07

Not very sure if this is the appropriate thread for my question...

Does External agencies\countries try to hack the data transmitted by Satellites to its Base Station... :?: and is it possible at first place :idea: If Yes how does ISRO takes care of the same...

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSSalvi » 03 May 2010 15:32

nits wrote:Not very sure if this is the appropriate thread for my question...

Does External agencies\countries try to hack the data transmitted by Satellites to its Base Station... :?: and is it possible at first place :idea: If Yes how does ISRO takes care of the same...


In olden days anyone could point to satellite and get data .. but for seeing it on screen or for any usefulness you need to know the format in which data is packed while being sent to ground. And that was a secret code .. hence not VERY easy.

Now there are some more difficulties added :
1. The satellite transmits data ONLY in the DIRECTION of authorised station.. hence others can't receive it.
2. In addition the receiving station has a authorization key and the satellite transmits ( along with the data ) authorization code which will be compared with the key and only then the data can be seen. In extreme circumstances the key can be sent for every pass instead of a general licence key.

.. etc etc etc

Also if you have to digitally analyze the data ( rather than visually seeing it on screen ) then you need to know precisely not only the position of the satellite but also its orientation ( attitude ).

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby nits » 03 May 2010 18:50

Thanks SSSalvi Sir that was quite enriching information...

Gurus - Any more comments\thoughts on this...

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby PratikDas » 03 May 2010 22:09

nits wrote:Thanks SSSalvi Sir that was quite enriching information...

Gurus - Any more comments\thoughts on this...

Without any claim to Gurutva...

It is also possible to jam the uplink of the satellite so that signals from legitimate ground-based transmitters are not received by the satellite due to receiver blocking. However, beamforming can be used to narrow the primary communication antenna's focus (main lobe). This not only complicates the task of receiving the satellite's transmissions without authorisation, it also lessens the impact of jammers in the uplink. Basically the satellite can choose to be 'deaf' in certain directions.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSSalvi » 04 May 2010 09:57

PratikDas wrote:
nits wrote:Thanks SSSalvi Sir that was quite enriching information...

Gurus - Any more comments\thoughts on this...

Without any claim to Gurutva...

It is also possible to jam the uplink of the satellite so that signals from legitimate ground-based transmitters are not received by the satellite due to receiver blocking. However, beamforming can be used to narrow the primary communication antenna's focus (main lobe). This not only complicates the task of receiving the satellite's transmissions without authorisation, it also lessens the impact of jammers in the uplink. Basically the satellite can choose to be 'deaf' in certain directions.


We were talking of remote sensing satellites.

There is no uplink for Remote sensing satellites .. it acquires data from onboard eqpmnt and tx it to station

Ur cocern is ok for communication satellite.

Anyways ALL modern satellites have highly directional antennas onboard so even for jamming the jammer must be within main lobe.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby nits » 04 May 2010 10:56


sunny y
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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby sunny y » 04 May 2010 22:40

Hi.....I have a query..
I want to learn more about the use of Robotics in Indian scientific establishment.
I mean ISRO is collaborating with IIT-K for moon rover Smartnev but Are there any Indian programs similiar to NASA's Robonaut ?

SSSalvi Sir....any thoughts :(

Thanks

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby SSSalvi » 05 May 2010 09:32

No Sunny, I am not aware of any pgm.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Sudip » 06 May 2010 08:18

Is a New Space Weapon Race Heating Up?

India has also begun developing its own anti-satellite program which would combine lasers and an exo-atmospheric kill vehicle, as announced at the beginning of 2010.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby sunny y » 06 May 2010 11:38

No Sunny, I am not aware of any pgm.

Ok...Thanks Sir..

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 11 May 2010 23:01


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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 11 May 2010 23:40

Nice info Krish. Can you give us a timeline for the PSLV HP and the other as yet unlaunched versions? What would be the major challenges in developing the HP. My layman's feeling is that basically all the tools are there for the HP.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby KrishG » 12 May 2010 01:12

Varoon Shekhar wrote:Nice info Krish. Can you give us a timeline for the PSLV HP and the other as yet unlaunched versions? What would be the major challenges in developing the HP. My layman's feeling is that basically all the tools are there for the HP.


The status of the HP version is still very unclear. VSSC came up with a report last year exploring the possibility of using GSLV for IRNSS launches. ISRO doesn't have an exact timeline for 3S but preliminary work seems to be progressing.

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby ramana » 12 May 2010 02:09

Krish, Is it feasible to add the cryo stage to the PSLV? or not due to size or load limitations?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby symontk » 12 May 2010 09:21

You can place a cryo by removing the current 3rd and 4th stages of PSLV. it shuld give at least 1700kg capacity for GTO

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby Kailash » 12 May 2010 11:59

India spares slowing ISRO’s space missions

BANGALORE: The quality of home-grown electronic components, which are integrated to satellites and launch vehicles, is very poor and hence is hampering the process of indigenisation of the Indian Space programme, said Dr D Narayanamoorthy, senior scientist at Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO).

He was delivering the National Technology Day lecture on Indian Space Endeavour on Tuesday. He said that while the percentage of indigenous components in the launch vehicles was very high, the percentage of indigenous components integrated into spacecrafts was about 50 per cent. This, he said, was despite the very poor quality of home-grown electronic components.


Why did this never come up before?

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Re: Indian Space Program Discussion

Postby harbans » 12 May 2010 12:05

^^ I don't buy this really. I could source from Timbuktu or Kenya. If i source on the basis of quality tests and they perform adequately to whatever tolerances and limits are specified, then whats the problem. Or is it in quality control standards that his organization sets and approves?


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