Indian Space Program Discussion

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 01 Jan 2010 20:40

Vipul wrote:If there are issues with a GSLV stage and its launch is postponed its understandable, but why is PSLV launch also postponed?

Because all work was focused on D3 flight on the Second Launch Pad. The PSLV-C15 stacking is yet to begin on the First Launch Pad.

ISRO generally takes one-at-a-time approach to launches but they are trying hard to move on as the next three years needs an minimum 6 launches per year to keep up the projects of the 11th Five year plan. But we have to also consider that it's not only the launch dates but whole projects are running late.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 02 Jan 2010 02:02

Scientists Say Lava Tube Discovered on Moon Best Location for Lunar Base

I think Chandrayaan-2 should devote some resources to getting more information on this lava tube or others

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Jan 2010 04:42

Vipul wrote:If there are issues with a GSLV stage and its launch is postponed its understandable, but why is PSLV launch also postponed?

The Hindu report says that Cartosat-2B is not ready yet.

sum · Post by **sum** » 02 Jan 2010 14:21

SSridhar wrote:
Vipul wrote:If there are issues with a GSLV stage and its launch is postponed its understandable, but why is PSLV launch also postponed?
The Hindu report says that Cartosat-2B is not ready yet.

Heard from a birdie that work is going on at frantic pace on Carto-2B and first priority is to get it up there

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 02 Jan 2010 21:42

Rahul M wrote:vivek ji, when lives are at stake we should get all the help/advice we can get. so why not get some consultancy from the russians when ISRO and glavkosmos already has considerable relations and the russians also have a very good safety record.

what exactly is the problem with russian help other than H&D ?

Rahul ji - The Russians more than at least 3 decades of experience with manned space flight. The Mir space stations helped demonstrate this to all. The ISS was kept functional by Russian missions when shuttle launches were suspended after the unfortunate disaster that killed Kalpana Chawla and her fellow astronauts. So I gues we can all agree that the Russians have mastered manned space flight and the capability to stay in space for extended durations (no problems with potty).

With the above in mind, why then will it take the Russians to transfer this to India? Are we so dumb that we cannot use their experience quickly? Why will it will take us a decade more to get a manned mission "with Russian help". Surely that is a joke or at least a DDM. If ISRO was going it alone, I would have no problem with 10 years to manned flight. In such a case, yeah developing a space-potty would be one of the challenges.

There is no question of H&D in this.

disha · Post by **disha** » 02 Jan 2010 23:41

Vivek K wrote:With the above in mind, why then will it take the Russians to transfer this to India?

Vivek you raise good points and then degenerate into unnecessary Rona & Dhona (tm). Your crux of the argument is what are they transferring and why will it take more than a decade. And both are valid points to debate and understand.

First to move beyond DDMities, go through this document http://planningcommission.nic.in/aboutu ... bspace.pdf. I myself have to go through its entirety and will post relevant extracts as time permits, the idea here is to get a 10000ft view on the direction of the Indan space program. At least to get an idea on what is going on in the heads of some of the sakertaties(tm) (sweet melons, corruption of secretaries) of the space program. My idea is to list what technologies that need to be developed if you and I were to start a human spaceflight program. And no, we are not looking for sub-orbital or dozens of orbital flights. From the get go the technologies should be cheaper and should sustain at least 3 humans in space for 3 weeks with all safety parameters thrown in.

Note that ISRO generally has a well defined plan. For eg. for the cryogenic systems, ISRO did not just go and buy a dozen of cryogenic engines. They worked on creating an entire infrastructure behind it. So there might be such a situation with humans in space.

Coming to potties in space, everybody please read this article as a starting point http://space.about.com/cs/spaceshuttles ... nspace.htm

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jan 2010 00:33

vivek ji, the reason why it would take that long is simple, it's not a priority for ISRO at the moment but rather a nice to have for the future. CY-1 and manned flights might bring in all the glamour but ISRO is still a bread and butter space org and rightly so. there are many gaps in India's space capabilities that need to be filled first. (IRNSS, military COMSAT, more EO sats and continued civilian demand which is going to literally sky-rocket)
the proposed pace would give ISRO time to absorb whatever the russians bring along, a quick shot at putting a man in sky has a different objective, just get the job done, buy the tech and use it, a thorough understanding won't be possible if they target, say 2015. a lot of funds and expertise will also have to diverted from ISRO's regular programs jeopardizing them mid-project, or the space funding would have to be doubled or tripled. neither option is ideal IMHO.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 03 Jan 2010 03:36

Rahul bhai, 2015 sounds a whole lot quicker than 2020. We may have a dream deficit in India.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 03 Jan 2010 18:14

'India readying weapon to destroy enemy satellites'

Thiruvananthapuram: Indian defence scientists are readying a weapons system to neutralise enemy satellites operating in low-earth orbit, a top defence scientist said here on Sunday.

"India is putting together building blocks of technology that could be used to neutralise enemy satellites," Defence Research and Development Organisation Director General V K Saraswat told reporters on the sidelines of the 97th Indian Science Congress.

However, he added that the defence scientists have not planned any tests but have started planning such technology which could be used to leapfrog to build a weapon in case the country needed it. Saraswat, who is also the Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister, said the scientists were planning to build the weapon which would have the capacity to hit and destroy satellites in low-earth orbit and polar orbit.

Usually, satellites in such orbits are used for network centric warfare and neutralising such spacecraft would deny enemy access to its space assets.

"We are working to ensure space security and protect our satellites. At the same time we are also working on how to deny the enemy access to its space assets," he said. To achieve such capabilities, a kill vehicle needs to be developed and that process is being carried out under the Ballistic Missile Defence programme.

Source: http://english.manoramaonline.com/cgi-b ... d=1&BV_ID=@@@

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 03 Jan 2010 18:54

"India is putting together building blocks of technology that could be used to neutralise enemy satellites," Defence Research and Development Organisation Director General V K Saraswat told reporters on the sidelines of the 97th Indian Science Congress.

This should have been kept a secret, we don't have a working system but still DRDO going public about it. I wonder when will our people learn about the magic of "element of surprise".

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jan 2010 18:59

Sagar G wrote:
"India is putting together building blocks of technology that could be used to neutralise enemy satellites," Defence Research and Development Organisation Director General V K Saraswat told reporters on the sidelines of the 97th Indian Science Congress.
This should have been kept a secret, we don't have a working system but still DRDO going public about it. I wonder when will our people learn about the magic of "element of surprise".

the decision to go public or not is taken at MOD/PMO level rather than DRDO. don't shoot the messenger.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 03 Jan 2010 19:04

Rahul M wrote:the decision to go public or not is taken at MOD/PMO level rather than DRDO. don't shoot the messenger.

And since PMO is more motivated by protecting its need to get re-elected rather than protecting national security, don't count on them prioritizing secrecy over the opportunity for political boasting.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 03 Jan 2010 19:16

Rahul M wrote:the decision to go public or not is taken at MOD/PMO level rather than DRDO. don't shoot the messenger.

But saar the messenger here is the Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister so he could have advised atleast MoD (if not PMO) to refrain from going public about such sensitive under development technology.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jan 2010 19:28

Sagar G wrote:
Rahul M wrote:the decision to go public or not is taken at MOD/PMO level rather than DRDO. don't shoot the messenger.
But saar the messenger here is the Scientific Adviser to Defence Minister so he could have advised atleast MoD (if not PMO) to refrain from going public about such sensitive under development technology.

saar ji, most of the time these decisions are taken after much thought. if they have made it public it means they must have a good reason for it. if it is otherwise we will soon hear news of heads rolling due to this leak. it is not possible neither acceptable for us to pass judgement on those decisions as they are made on information that we are completely ignorant of.

suffice to say, if India wants to keep a secret, her officers, civilian and military alike, are more than capable enough to do so. and India does keep certain things secret, to quote rumsfeld, some are known unknowns and others are unknown unknowns.

And since PMO is more motivated by protecting its need to get re-elected rather than protecting national security, don't count on them prioritizing secrecy over the opportunity for political boasting.

this is news to me ! so you are telling me that civilian bureaucrats in PMO, who after all take these decisions are 'elected' and then 're-elected' ??

where is rahul mehta ?

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 03 Jan 2010 19:44

saar ji, most of the time these decisions are taken after much thought. if they have made it public it means they must have a good reason for it. if it is otherwise we will soon hear news of heads rolling due to this leak. it is not possible neither acceptable for us to pass judgement on those decisions as they are made on information that we are completely ignorant of.

Agree saar but still I think that this should have been kept a secret like the BMD programme where only after testing official confirmation came in that such a programme existed (AFAIK if I didn't miss any piece of news in between) I was expecting the same thing here too. After the Chinese tests it was obvious that India would have also started it's own Anti-Satellite weapon programme and I thought that official confirmation will only come after we test these weapons.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jan 2010 20:04

as I said, we are not privy to the info on which these decisions are based upon and any speculation whether it is justified or not is just that, speculation. I don't see how we are in a position to pass judgement either way.

if you asked me to take a wild guess I will say that similar to nukes, deterrence will play a part in deployment of anti-sat weapons and believability is a big part of deterrence.
since it is unlikely we will test against an actual sat anytime soon, ** suitable announcements from time to time will create the believability as and when we deploy the system.

**(the fall-out is too great. secondly the technology to do so is not path-breaking really, from what we understand. so a virtual test on a modified system will suffice)

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 03 Jan 2010 20:18

This should have been kept a secret, we don't have a working system but still DRDO going public about it. I wonder when will our people learn about the magic of "element of surprise".

I agree with Rahul ji that we are pretty good in keeping secrets (ATV). They must have some good reason to declare this in public, may be they want to intimidate Pakistan & China.
But Sagar G is also right. They should have atleast demonstrated something before saying out loud in open. ABM is perfect example.
Now outsiders will devote more time in creating hurdles to make this project suffer.

Now, If we go by what Mr. Saraswat said then they are still at the planning stage. I think it is wise to assume that funds so far have been allocated only to study what technologies we require, cost estimates etc.
Don't be surprised if 5 years down the line some ignorant DDM start quoting 3rd January 2010 as the date when this project was started in the same way they quote 1983 as the year when LCA project was started.

Then the usual DRDO bashing.....

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 03 Jan 2010 22:02

Dmurphy wrote:'India readying weapon to destroy enemy satellites'

In the photo which is accompanying the article , there is a prithvi model near Dr.Saraswat. The model is not the normal prithvi one. It has a blunt nose with a spike on top of it. Does this says anything new? Can the experts decipher anything from that?.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 03 Jan 2010 22:19

I agree with Rahul ji that we are pretty good in keeping secrets (ATV).

ATV is a known unknown. there are other unknown unknowns. I will leave it at that.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 04 Jan 2010 03:40

Marten wrote:.... Their prime targets are not Indian sats, but the US.

That is where we are wrong. China is probably not planning to fight the US but to develop a deterrent and a group of allies much like the FSU. India OTOH is a prime target for the Chinese. The threat of war/hostilities between India and China is very real. Denying India the use of her space based assets is probably very high up among China's priorities in the event of break out of hostilities. Therefore this announcement from MOD is a warning/deterrent to the Chinese. And the announcement must have been made after the conclusion of some study/design of the weapon/capability.

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 04 Jan 2010 07:27

marimuthu wrote:
Dmurphy wrote:'India readying weapon to destroy enemy satellites'
In the photo which is accompanying the article , there is a prithvi model near Dr.Saraswat. The model is not the normal prithvi one. It has a blunt nose with a spike on top of it. Does this says anything new? Can the experts decipher anything from that?.

That is indeed a normal Prithvi . Reflecting light on the black cone has done the magic

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 04 Jan 2010 07:47

ISRO plans to use semi-cryogenic engines - TS Subramanian in The Hindu

. . . programme to induct semi-cryogenic engines, which will use kerosene as fuel, and this engine will form the booster for its future launch vehicles, ISRO Chairman K. Radhakrishnan said. . .

arun · Post by **arun** » 04 Jan 2010 16:21

GSLV Mk III ‘s S-200 solid booster stage to be tested 3rd week of January.

L-110 Liquid stage also to be tested this month:

Key tests on next gen ISRO rocket this month

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 04 Jan 2010 20:15

ISRO reviews cryogenic engine

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 04 Jan 2010 21:21

India's ‘satellite killer’ to take on China
http://news.in.msn.com/national/article ... id=3517606

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 05 Jan 2010 06:06

Challenges ahead in putting 2 Indians in space
Excerpts

Plans to put two Indians in space by 2015 require cutting edge technologies such as building a robust and reliable launch vehicle, a livable crew capsule, providing life support systems for the astronauts and “a 100 per cent reliable crew escape system” in case of an emergency . . . The most challenging part was to ensure that the two-man crew were brought back safely to earth

The RLV-TD’s engineering model was ready. A scaled-down model would be flown by the end of 2010.

Director of CNES (French Space Agency) Marc Pircher said the Megha-Tropiques satellite, with payloads from India and France, would be put in orbit from India this year. It would study the tropical atmosphere near the equatorial belt and cyclone formation.

sanjaychoudhry · Post by **sanjaychoudhry** » 05 Jan 2010 18:52

India Developing Anti-satellite Technology
http://www.spacenews.com/military/india ... ology.html

ISRO to launch Cartosat-2B in March
http://www.ptinews.com/news/453435_ISRO ... B-in-March

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 06 Jan 2010 17:47

India to launch satellite to study sea level rise

arun · Post by **arun** » 07 Jan 2010 19:45

ISRO to launch GSLV-D3, PSLV-16 by March 2010, India to produce first light helicopter

Posted On: 06-Jan-2010 08:38:39 By: Ashok B Sharma

Thiruvananthapuram: The Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) has finally planned to launch its Geo-synchronous Satellite Launch Vehicle – GSLV D3 and its Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV – 16) by March 2010. The launch of GSLV- D3 was earlier scheduled for December 2009 and later postponed for lauch in January 2009. The launch of PSLV – 16 was planned prior to that of GSLV- D3.

The director of Satish Dhawan Space Centre-SHAR, MC Dathan said : “The launch of GSLV – D3 was delayed as we are reviewing the indigenous cryogenic stage. The GSLV-D3 will be powered by an indigenous cryogenic stage built for the first time by the Indian Space Research Organisation. It will put in orbit a communication satellite, GSAT-4.”

He said that the PSLV – 16 will also be launched in March to put in orbit Cartosat-2B; Alsat, a small satellite from Algeria; two nano-satellites from the University of Toronto, and another nano-satellite, Studsat (Students’ satellite), built by several Indian universities.

Dathan, who is participating in the 97th Indian Science Congress at Thiruvananthapuram said : “In January, this year we will do the ground testing of the biggest solid booster for GSLV Maitri which is scheduled to be launched in 2011. ISRO also has a programme to use reusable launch vessel to carry hygrogen to produce water in combination of oxygen extracted from the atmosphere. As we would not carry water this would help us to reduce the weight of vessel at the take off stage.” He said that ISRO was exploring the possibility of using kerosene as a fuel option. …………………………….

My News

wasu · Post by **wasu** » 07 Jan 2010 21:15

In January, this year we will do the ground testing of the biggest solid booster for GSLV Maitri

DDM - GSLV Mark3 becomes GSLV Maitri

Avinash R · Post by **Avinash R** » 10 Jan 2010 11:50

ISRO plans special launch pad at Sriharikotta

Tiki RajwiFirst Published : 10 Jan 2010 03:00:00 AM IST
THIRUVANANTHAPURAM: The third launch pad planned at ISRO’s Satish Dhawan Space Centre, Sriharikota, is going to be something special.

While it will meet the space agency’s needs for the 2015 Human Space Flight Mission, the launch pad is also being designed to accommodate the proposed Reusable Launch Vehicle (RLV), India’s dream space shuttle which is on the designing board, ISRO officials said.

‘’The preliminary design for the third launch pad is complete. It will be able to take care of all future programmes of the ISRO, including the Human Space Flight Mission and the Reusable Launch Vehicle,’’ officials said.

ISRO has also started designing a landing strip for the Reusable Launch Vehicle at the Sriharikota Range.

The third pad is coming up one kilometre south of the spaceport’s second pad, which was used to lift off the PSLV-XL rocket bearing the Chandrayaan-I mission in 2008. It is expected to be completed by 2015, coinciding with the Human Space Flight Mission for which the GSLV rocket is to be used. ‘’Since human beings are to be sent to space, the new pad is specially designed.

It will have facilities such as a Crew Escape Module which could come handy in an emergency during the launch,’’ sources said.

An Reusable Launch Vehicle is expected to save the space agency massively in mission costs.

Today, each kilogram of the payload costs around $ 12,000 to be placed in space.

Three launch pads will also enhance ISRO’s capability for multiple launches with the space agency’s annual number of launches on the rise.

Shankar · Post by **Shankar** » 10 Jan 2010 11:58

This is correct
The third laucnh pad should be ready by 2015 and will use to launch GSLV MK 3 for the manned missions .The GSLV mk 3 should be also ready by then and operational

GSLV D3 launch have been delayed after a last minute review and data analyiss of the cryogenic stage which is being corrected by a novel method .Once this done the rocket will be cleared for launch

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 10 Jan 2010 22:24

India to buy Soyuz spacecraft from Russia by 2013

India plans to buy a Soyuz spacecraft from Russia and to launch its cosmonauts into orbit in 2013, Interfax news agency reported Sunday citing Vitaly Davydov, Deputy Head of Roskosmos.

Davydov said that, by 2013 the Russian space corporation Energia (Energy) is to upgrade its production facilities and will be capable to build 5 Soyuz spacecrafts a year.

Davydov said that besides paying for the spacecraft India will also finance the training of the Russian cosmonaut who is to head the team of Indian cosmonauts. He noted that the project envisages the launch of the Indian cosmonauts into orbit but not the work on the International Space Station.

Roskosmos - is a governmental organization responsible for managing the Russian space program.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 10 Jan 2010 23:09

^^ While Co-operation is the best strategy to learn new technologies and build new capabilities. This Russia Bazaar I am afraid may also lead to an undue influence on the Indian scientific community that may compromise national security with Russian intelligence agents having easy access to some of India's most secret installations and scientists. The very reason the Russians developed so many unique technologies and unique perspectives in their space program vis a vis the American space program is because they approached space flight independently. Not facilitating the same level of independence to ISRO might prevent the development of other unique technologies by ISRO . While the Russians offer the express course in Astronautics, which is still decades ahead of the Chinese, it would be interesting to see how much of it translates into an Indian context. Sticking an Indian flag on a Soyuz capsule will only take ISRO so far.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 11 Jan 2010 08:39

^^ True , but it can work the other way round where Indian agents penetrate Top Secret facility of Russian Space organisation and flee off with something significant.

Well there is no end to such paranoid thinking

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 12 Jan 2010 00:19

err..... shouldnt we apply DDM-filters and read it as "India bought training rides on Soyuz shots from Russia/Kazak for getting experienced crew for its own manned program"? Not the "Your shopping cart shows: 1 Soyuz, 1 Russian Commander" that the article conveys.

Anways, dearly miss Arun_S's analysis on this pic. eg: that white block like thingy on the side.

negi · Post by **negi** » 12 Jan 2010 00:41

^ If I would be allowed to hazard a guess it seems like a ramp type intake for an air breathing engine (RAM/SCRAM jet). The 4 controllable fin surfaces indicate it is a stand alone platform and not a booster for a larger vehicle.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Jan 2010 04:07

ATV sounds like "A** Test Vehicle" of some sort.

Perhaps the vehicle to test the AVATAR Scramjet?

MN Kumar · Post by **MN Kumar** » 12 Jan 2010 12:23

There was a snippet in a local FM channel that India is building an ARTIFICIAL MOON base near Bangalore on a 200 acre land. Didnt see this news anywhere else. Can anyone confirm?

Praveen · Post by **Praveen** » 12 Jan 2010 12:53

MN Kumar wrote:There was a snippet in a local FM channel that India is building an ARTIFICIAL MOON base near Bangalore on a 200 acre land. Didnt see this news anywhere else. Can anyone confirm?

Not a moon base, but the terrain for rover testing.