Indian Space Program Discussion

vishwakarmaa · Post by **vishwakarmaa** » 19 Sep 2009 13:09

This whole thing of blaming the heat on solar radiations doesn't make sense. So, someone is saying that solar heat is more in inner atmosphere of Moon, than outer space? I doubt it, unless Moon has its own radiations.

What remains to be seen is, if it was solar radiation as ISRO claims or it was some naughty probe doing the mess, on board by releasing extra heat than probe-specifications provided by that space agency.

Note that, ISRO designed the heat-model based on what data(Max. heat specifications etc.) foreign agencies provided about their probes and I doubt ISRO tested these probes in real-time by operating them Live for days in labs.

Also, its doubtful if ISRO was fully aware of all configurations of these probes, since one probe operates in several configurations based on commands given to it, since some of these probes were operated from outside ISRO's control. It requires a simple 'radio-link' to operate your probe and space agencies are surely capable of it.

Again its just a CT so take it like that. Judge it from your own.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 19 Sep 2009 15:58

ss_roy wrote:animesharma,
EDITED If the US and Russia were filled with people like you, they would still be in the dark ages. You have problems understanding that no breakthrough was ever made without taking a calculated risk. Some risks pay off and others fail, but Indians like you want to win every time. Newsflash- It does not work like that!

Do you realize that with the limited budget and constraints on design, CY-1 was spectacularly successful. I suggest you read some history(of space exploration) and compare apples to apples (not oranges).

Sir,
I very well understand and respect the achievement of ISRO. But i am just complimenting ISRO for their maturity and eagerness to learn. They did it in 60s and they are probably doing it now as well.
I see nothing wrong in my statement.

Regarding CY1, there are two aspects to look at it. It was india's first deep space mission, it was certainly a success.
But if you consider future objectives of ISRO, the same mission, officially or unofficially has to go through introspection, which can never be done faithfully without acknowledging the fact that there was some failure.
I am confident ISRO is mature enough to know failure is another opportunity to learn.

animesharma · Post by **animesharma** » 19 Sep 2009 19:15

I Hope this is the right section to post this article

Space security policy is the need of the hour, stresses report
http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/ ... e-hour.htm
'India needs to formulate a comprehensive space security policy for defence and development,' the point was suggested by a group constituted by the Institute of Defence Studies and Analyses.
In its report drafted in collaboration with the Indian Pugwash Society, the group has projected at least nine scenarios of emergencies and threats to India's space security that cannot be tackled without a well-defined policy.

It warns that India will be left behind unless it braces up to explore possibilities in space, particularly when the developed countries are spending large amounts of money on the development of dual-use space technologies.

The report sees the biggest threat to India coming from China that sent a signal of entering an arms race in space by launching an Anti- Satellite Missile test in January 2007 to destroy its own weather satellite by a kinetic kill vehicle that left 2,317 pieces of golf ball-sized and bigger debris.

Quoting space scientists, the report says these debris will remain in orbit for many years and may even interfere with future space activities. The report says Pakistan also has a well-developed nuclear and missile programme which is entirely India-centric and its nexus with China in trying to contain India will lead to their collaboration in space too.

The report says the space security policy should take care of the security needs of the country, and India should make timely investments in space technologies and carry out domestic legal reforms to promote space security.

It also stressed that India should pursue an international negotiating strategy, which is proactive, and flexible, particularly since the progress towards arms control in space is slow.

The Outer Space Treaty, ratified by 98 countries including China, bans weapons of mass destruction in orbit and outer space, but not the conventional weaponry in orbit.

The report says while India should support initiation of space arms control negotiations while not overly active. It should oppose weaponisation of space but not the use of outer space for legitimate national security needs. It should rather help evolve global norms for limits to military use of space capabilities.

The group goes on to suggest that India should consider international cooperation with South Asian Association for Regional Cooperation and other developing countries and offer them the benefits of space to help improve its image and mitigate some of the security concerns in the region. It says this will match China's current efforts to build cooperation with developing countries for soft power in space.

The hypothetical scenarios of threats to India's space security projected in the report include:

Attack on an Indian satellite: A possibility from China that has hot up claim on Arunachal Pradesh and resorted to increased border incursions. It can kill India's low earth orbit for intelligence gathering using the same kind of kinetic kill vehicle that it used to destroy its own satellite in 2007.
Jamming of Indian satellite: One of the satellites is already intermittently jammed. Will India be able to pinpoint the culprit. If it is Pakistan, will India jam its satellite? Does it have the technology?
Debris hit Indian satellite: Coming from China's ASAT test in 2007. Will India claim compensation?
Terrorists attack and destroy India's ground satellite tracking station to disrupt services.
Indian satellite debris damage European satellite if the satellite becomes dysfunctional and is repeatedly spiraling down.
India blamed by China causing damage to its satellite using ground-based laser.
India conducts an ASAT test for its own security needs and evoke global criticism.
The US for its own reasons shuts down the GPS affecting India's civil aviation and shipping services.

prao · Post by **prao** » 19 Sep 2009 21:51

I think I've been very clear about my opinion of the CY1 issue and why I think it's important. I'm sorry to say that some of you are missing the point and are addressing non-issues.

If the causes of CY1's issues and early demise had been a purely technical issue, I would not have been so bothered. Say a part failed in ways that could not have been anticipated, a micrometeorite hit (say) or in this case - if the so-called unknowns were truly unknowns. On a personal note, I'm in two minds about the MIP - I'm proud that it was deliberately sent to land (in a manner of speaking) on the moon but I'm unhappy that its manner of inclusion was probably responsible for ending the mission.

This issue is I think that the story put out by ISRO about the causes of CY1's early demise is not the whole story. I think that is in fact not the real story at all. The real story in my opinion is that ISRO made mission threatening design changes bypassing their usual process. The probe was redesigned to include the heavy MIP without the thoroughness that the redesign deserved. I don't want this kind of stuff repeated. I think ISRO should first come clean about the real causes of the problems (not a witch hunt to identify people - that won't solve anything but certainly identify offices/divisions that should/could have served as checks but didn't). The cause being that the design process with all its checks and balances was bypassed. The solution would be to:

(1) Come clean about the causes (no obfuscations - no pulling wool over our eyes!) and
(2) Put in new checks and balances (the solution is in the process - I can't emphasize this enough) so that something like this is not repeated.

P.S. Each invited experiment on board CY1 was given a limit of 10 kg for the mass and 10 watts of power that would be provided by the spacecraft (I'm going by memory but I think that the numbers were correct at some point of time). So CY1 would have to dissipate 10 watts of power from each. In any case, the maximum power to be dissipated would be: (external radiation flux + power generated by the solar cells - power stored in the on-board batteries). All known quantities.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 20 Sep 2009 06:12

I think the mission was a great success.

Underestimating the thermal loading was a minor oversight, and unfortunately in space even the smallest oversight can result in failure.

I don't think that any investigations should be done on the basis of speculation, especially since I hadn't heard of any objectors raising their voices in the period prior to the launch. Anyone can speak from hindsight - that's obvious.

I think the way to improve our performance in the space field is to attract more talent, and not to let small difficulties overshadow the greater cause in the pursuit of our space goals.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 20 Sep 2009 09:06

NASA's Lunar Reconaissance Orbiter has just found large concentrations of hydrogen on the Moon. This indicates the possible presence of water. Dammit, if the bistatic experiment involving Chandrayaan-1 had worked, it might have meant our participation in what could be the greatest discovery in the history of space missions.

http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld ... 9406.story

The Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter's seven scientific instruments have indeed confirmed the presence of large amounts of hydrogen -- a marker for water -- in permanently shadowed south pole craters, where scientists had known there were deposits of hydrogen. But the instruments have also found the element in regions where the sun shines.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32903691/ns ... nce-space/

New data and images from NASA's new moon orbiter — the first in more than a decade — have revealed tentative signs of lunar water ice, the space agency announced Thursday.

Dammit, if only Chandrayaan had lasted just a couple of weeks more. What lousy luck.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 20 Sep 2009 10:04

Suppose that water really has been found on the Moon:

http://www.nature.com/news/2009/090918/ ... 9.931.html

Maybe this should then influence the mission goals for Chandrayaan-2 and even a possible 3rd mission.

imho, finding and investigating water ice on the Moon would be more important than investigating Helium-3.

Investigating it in the shadowed regions of the lunar poles would require RTGs to power any lunar rover we send there, as opposed to the easy solar panel approach. It would also require equipment that could handle the extreme cold in those areas.

vera_k · Post by **vera_k** » 20 Sep 2009 11:42

That link above has a reference to Chandrayaan. Looks like that mission found evidence for water too.

Observations made during the extended mission of the Deep Impact probe, and from the Moon Mineralogy Mapper, an instrument aboard India's recently ended Chandrayaan-1 spacecraft, will be published in Science, and will show more detailed spectroscopic evidence for the types of watery minerals that Vilas saw in the Galileo pictures so long ago.

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 20 Sep 2009 16:05

ISRO preparing for GSAT 4 launch in two months

While the preparations for launch of India’s ocean monitoring satellite Oceansat 2 and six other nano satellites Sep 23 is on, the Indian Space Research Organisation (ISRO) is getting ready for the bigger launch slated in the next two months — that of the communications satellite GSAT 4.

“GSLV will blast off from the second launch pad with its third stage fitted with an India built cryogenic engine thereby making the country absolutely self reliant in building the bigger rocket,” S. Sathish, ISRO’s director of publications and public relations, told IANS over phone from Bangalore.

Arunkumar · Post by **Arunkumar** » 20 Sep 2009 16:35

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/dec252007/1715.pdf

From the link above on page 1726 , GSAT-4 would be using 4 ion thruster propulsion for station keeping. Two of them are imported(??Russia??) while two of them are Indian

.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 20 Sep 2009 19:06

Wow, that's great - ion thrusters are a relatively recently deployed technology by other countries.

I'd like to see ISRO use ion thrusters for a mission to Mars, for example. But even lunar missions can benefit from ion engines, as ESA's SMART-1 mission showed.

Among the more powerful higher-thrust types of electric propulsion are DS4G, VASIMR, and PIT.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_thruster

http://www.esa.int/gsp/ACT/pro/pp/DS4G/background.htm

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 21 Sep 2009 02:10

Another type of system I feel ISRO should do demonstration trials for are inflatable aerobraking shells:

http://adsabs.harvard.edu/full/2001ESASP.468...93V

These are like what NASA recently demonstrated with its recent IRVE test, done at very low cost. This kind of inexpensive test is something that India should try to do too, because it won't cost much, and it looks to be a very useful re-entry technology.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 21 Sep 2009 16:28

ISRO starts filling up liquid fuel for PSLV-C14

dinesha · Post by **dinesha** » 22 Sep 2009 08:29

Isro set to fire 7 satellites in 20 mins
http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/new ... 040599.cms

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 22 Sep 2009 20:30

All set for PSLV C-14 Lift-off

With the 48-hour countdown proceeding smoothly, things are getting set for the lift-off of the Polar Satellite Launch Vehicle (PSLV- C14) from the spaceport at Sriharikota at 11.51 a.m. on Wednesday, September 23. The PSLV- C14 will put India’s Oceansat-2 and six nano satellites from abroad in orbit.

“Everything is okay so far. Things are working as per plan,” said M.Y.S. Prasad, Range Operations Director for the mission. “We started the countdown at 9 a.m. on Monday. We keep a couple of hours as reserve,” he explained.

The filling of the liquid fuel in the rocket’s fourth stage had been completed. The second stage would be filled with liquid fuel beginning from Tuesday evening, said Dr. Prasad

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 23 Sep 2009 06:46

PSLV C-14 Photo Gallery
About Oceansat-2

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 23 Sep 2009 07:16

Has Chandrayaan Found Water on the Moon?

(btw, for a good laugh, read the comments in the comments section)

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 23 Sep 2009 07:38

Hindu Link: Water discovered on moon?: “A lot of it actually”

kasthuri · Post by **kasthuri** » 23 Sep 2009 08:08

Folks at work: The press conference on Moon Mineralogy Mapper can be viewed 2.00 PM tomorrow (24th) and there is a streaming video available at NASA TV.
Information Source: Nasa To Reveal New Scientific Findings About The Moon

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 23 Sep 2009 08:19

if its true, expect the panda to backdate and fake some results to show it was Changye who found it first.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 23 Sep 2009 08:27

Chinkis wouldn't try that stunt in any international media but expect some rubbish like that in their local media. Everyone else knows change was just a dabba.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 23 Sep 2009 08:29

Perhaps NASA announced that they'll announce the 'discovery' on thursday for a purpose.

This gives tarrel fliend to come up with some cooked up story of how changi in the throes of its final experiment during the process of its impact on the moon discovered a 'ello river and a three gorges dam filled with water.

If the chinese don't come up with some PS-ed maal by day after, they can't claim credit for anything later on.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 23 Sep 2009 09:44

Here's another article on the imminent announcement of Water on the Moon:

http://www.nasawatch.com/archives/2009/ ... a_lot.html

If this is true, then it would make ISRO part of the most momentous discovery in the entire history of space missions.

Moon Chalo!

juvva · Post by **juvva** » 23 Sep 2009 10:44

Less then an hour to launch: http://blog.isilaunch.com/

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 23 Sep 2009 10:56

Would it telecast Live on DD national?

sombhat · Post by **sombhat** » 23 Sep 2009 11:33

Should have liftoff by now, anyone??

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 23 Sep 2009 11:39

One Min to Launch

Praveen · Post by **Praveen** » 23 Sep 2009 11:40

watch live on ibnlive.com. 40 sec to go

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 23 Sep 2009 11:41

Sucessfull Takeoff.

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 23 Sep 2009 11:43

First Stage Separated

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 23 Sep 2009 11:44

Launch was majestic as ever. PSLV C-14 launch was perfect and tracking is 100% synchronous with pre-determined path.

Congrats ISRO.

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 23 Sep 2009 11:45

Heat Shield Separated.

Praveen · Post by **Praveen** » 23 Sep 2009 11:45

second stage performance normal. +3.5 mins. heat shield seperated.

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 23 Sep 2009 11:46

Second Stage Separeted. Thirs Stage Ignited. Everything normal

Praveen · Post by **Praveen** » 23 Sep 2009 11:46

3rd stage ignited. performance normal.

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 23 Sep 2009 11:48

Third Stage burnout. Now it is coasting

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 23 Sep 2009 11:50

Third Stage Separated. Fourth Stage Ignited.

Praveen · Post by **Praveen** » 23 Sep 2009 11:54

4th stage is normal.

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 23 Sep 2009 11:59

Fourth stage Cutoff. Oceansat placed in orbit.

marimuthu · Post by **marimuthu** » 23 Sep 2009 12:00

Cubesat Separation going on