Indian Naval Discussion

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 03 Oct 2009 20:14

Foreign ship strays near Tamil Nadu nuclear plant

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 081612.cms

soutikghosh · Post by **soutikghosh** » 03 Oct 2009 21:11

INS BEAS Off English Coast

More here:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/sh ... ost4455607

John · Post by **John** » 03 Oct 2009 22:51

Austin wrote:
John wrote:Yes 350 km is no where as much 500km+ for those radar but you have to keep in mind P-17s/Talwar are multi purpose FFGs and not to be in the same class as Fleet air defense vessel like De Zeven/Sachsen/Type 45 etc. Hence for cost and power requirement it makes sense to omit it (FREMM, Delta class etc don't even have a secondary radar).
Looking at next generation SSR for DDG of P-15B type , the SSR seems to be stuck with ~ 257 Kmts for RCS = 2m2 as per BEL for RAWL 02Mk3 ( http://www.bel-india.com/index.aspx?q=&sectionid=69 )

They probably would have been better off with RAWL 02Mk3 for P-17 and P-15B as SSR

RAWLS is 2D radar why is it relevant? if you recall P-17 was orginally to have Kashtan-M1 (if you look at the models). Kashtan-M1 does require a 3D target detection radar (Russians couple it with Positiv-ME) hence i suspect LW-08 was not fitted. Granted Kashtan was dropped but it looks like they kept the radar.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 04 Oct 2009 01:39

Shore to Ship

claims IN is interested in the U.S. Navy's Electromagnetic Aircraft Launch System (Emals) "CAT"!!!

The E-2D seems to be secondary.

India needs at least five carriers.

Good read ...................... quite a bit of info to chew on.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 04 Oct 2009 02:10

Abu Dhabi to host Indian Ocean naval meet in March

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 04 Oct 2009 04:03

India to buy 29 more Mig-29K
NEW DELHI: Decks have now been cleared for India to order another batch of MiG-29Ks after the specially-designed maritime fighters underwent successful flight-deck trials from Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov in the Barents Sea on September 28-29.

Defence ministry sources said the fresh order for 29 more MiG-29Ks from Russia for around Rs 5,380 crore (around $1.12 billion) will "soon'' be sent to the Cabinet Committee of Security for the final approval. These jets will be in addition to 16 MiG-29Ks already contracted through the initial $1.5-billion Admiral Gorshkov package deal, which earmarked $974 million for the aircraft carrier's refit and the rest for the fighters, inked in January 2004.

While the military asymmetry with China is quite stark, aircraft carrier operations is one particular arena in which India is ahead of its much larger neighbour. Grappling it may be with only 11 Sea Harrier jump-jets now, India's solitary aircraft carrier, the 28,000-tonne INS Viraat, has just undergone an 18-month life extension refit to ensure it can run smoothly for another five years.

China, in contrast, does not have an aircraft carrier. But it's furiously working to build them, apart from refurbishing the former Soviet Kuznetsov-class carrier Varyag and seeking to buy Su-33 carrier-borne fighters from Russia.

India, of course, will get the fully-refurbished Gorshkov only by early-2013, with New Delhi and Moscow likely to agree to a revised refit cost of around $2.6 billion. The first four of the contracted 16 MiG-29Ks, however, will touch down in India in October-November this year.

Though the fresh order for 29 more MiG-29Ks was cleared by Defence Acquisitions Council, chaired by defence minister A K Antony, quite some time ago, it was hanging fire since the fighters developed for India were still to be tested for take-offs and landings on an aircraft carrier. "India wanted the MiG-29Ks to be proven in carrier-deck operations before inking the follow-on order for 29 more fighters...it was critical. Now, only a few weapon trials of MiG-29Ks are left,'' said a source.

MiG-29Ks will operate from both 44,570-tonne Gorshkov -- rechristened INS Vikramaditya after India has already paid $602 million for its refit -- as well as the 40,000-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier being built at the Cochin Shipyard, which should roll out by 2014-2015.

Armed with eight types of air-to-air missiles, including extended range BVR (beyond visual range) missiles, as well as 25 air-to-surface weapons for land-attack missions, the MiG-29Ks will provide the Navy with a lethal punch on the high seas. The jets will also be capable of mid-air refuelling from IL-78 tankers as well as other MiG-29Ks under `buddy-tanking'. While 12 of the first 16 fighters will be the single-seat `K' variants, the other four will be twin-seater `KUB' trainer versions. Similarly, four of the next 29 jets will be `KUB' trainer versions.

To prepare for MiG-29Ks, 10 Indian naval pilots have already undergone training on them, even as shore-based training facilities have been established at INS Hansa in Goa. Moreover, some naval pilots have also trained on the MiG-29s flown by IAF, while a few others have done courses in the US on combat manoeuvres undertaken from aircraft carriers under a $26 million agreement.

All this is needed since Indian naval pilots do not have the experience of `conventional' fighters like MiG-29Ks, which land on ship decks with arrestor wires. The `unconventional' Sea Harrier jump-jets in use land vertically on INS Viraat.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 04 Oct 2009 05:16

Darn how i wish i was one of them

Are these the same naval aviators who were training at NAS Kingsville in the US on T-45 Goshawks earlier last year? Shiv Aroor made a blog post about them IIRC.

George J · Post by **George J** » 04 Oct 2009 06:17

Indian Naval Aviators went to NAS Pensacola.

John · Post by **John** » 04 Oct 2009 06:28

Nikhil T wrote:India to buy 29 more Mig-29K

That does not leave much room for N-LCA, if ordered soon the Mig-29k should delivered by 2013 and should be enough to equip both Vikramaditya and Vikrant.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 04 Oct 2009 07:14

India to buy 29 more Mig-29K

Defence ministry sources said the fresh order for 29 more MiG-29Ks from Russia for around Rs 5,380 crore (around $1.12 billion) will "soon'' be sent to the Cabinet Committee of Security for the final approval.

Super price! $ 40 mill per bird - Perhaps an indication of what we may see for the MiG-35 being offered! How much will a Zhuk A add? What will economies of scale for 126 a/c do to the price?

CM.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 04 Oct 2009 07:43

Indian Naval Aviators went to NAS Pensacola.

from livefist:

From Pensacola, the Indian pilots move to Naval Air Station Whiting Field, also in Florida, for 18 weeks of flying Beechcraft T-34 Mentor single turboprop trainers. After this, the pilots move to Naval Air Station Kingsville in Texas to begin the real stuff -- flying jets. But first, there's three months at Kingsville just for classroom and simulator preparation. After weeks of flying the glass-cockpit simulator, the pilots finally strap into a T-45 Goshawk. But for the first two weeks, they're made to fly blind -- called "flying under a blanket" or instrument hood. Learn to trust your instruments more than anything else, that's the point. This completes Phase 1 of the six months course.

Source:http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/10/ph ... rrier.html

I guess I answered my own question...probably.

sourab_c · Post by **sourab_c** » 04 Oct 2009 08:11

Nikhil T wrote:India to buy 29 more Mig-29K
.

This news has made my day. MiG has done an impressive job with these jets, it is a well deserved order.

andy B · Post by **andy B** » 04 Oct 2009 08:31

uddu wrote:http://i598.photobucket.com/albums/tt66 ... /Navy1.jpg

First impression is ''U.S NAVY fighters''.

Joo are right I saw another one of these gem pics where there are two Ks on the startboard and portside of the 78 ready for hook up and if you look at that pic from a bit more distance the wing, tails the front shape and all looks very much like a couple of F15s

I guess the ghost grey is also similar to what the 15s are painted as....very striking indeed.

George J · Post by **George J** » 04 Oct 2009 10:53

Omar wrote:.......I guess I answered my own question...probably.

The same Shiv Aroor in 2005 wrote: For Gorshkov, Navy pilots head to US for training

New delhi, december 23 By the time Russian-built aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov arrives in 2008, the Navy will have a contingent of 32 pilots, trained in specialised deck-based fighter operations at the US Navy training command in Pensacola, Florida.......The selection of venue for training to operate Russian-built MiG-29K fighters off the Gorshkov may seem strange but the government was compelled to accept the Pentagon’s offer because Russia has no facilities for intermediate deck-based flight training. The US Navy training school in Pensacola trains Naval F/A-18 Super Hornet pilots.......The first batch of four at Pensacola, led by training coordinator and seasoned Harrier pilot, Cdr Rohit Gupta, is currently training on the T-45 Goshawk (a variant of the British Hawk AJT) single engine trainer after completing a capsule on the T-34 Turbomentor propeller trainer.They are scheduled to begin actual deck-qualifying from January. All eight batches of four pilots each will spend six months at the training command in US..........

I guess I just qualified my own answer....probably.

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 04 Oct 2009 12:42

sourab_c wrote:
Nikhil T wrote:India to buy 29 more Mig-29K
.
This news has made my day. MiG has done an impressive job with these jets, it is a well deserved order.

It hasn't mentioned the number.... any idea ... how many would be acquired

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 04 Oct 2009 12:46

SanjibGhosh wrote:
Nikhil T wrote:India to buy 29 more Mig-29K

It hasn't mentioned the number.... any idea ... how many would be acquired

What are you smoking ?

Defence ministry sources said the fresh order for 29 more MiG-29Ks from Russia.

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 04 Oct 2009 13:09

Nikhil T wrote:What are you smoking ?
Defence ministry sources said the fresh order for 29 more MiG-29Ks from Russia.

opps!! missed it 29 29ks .... thanks

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 04 Oct 2009 14:35

Cain Marko wrote: How much will a Zhuk A add? What will economies of scale for 126 a/c do to the price?

The difference of price between Zhuk-ME and Zhuk-AE doesn't exceed $1 mil for sure. At the end it's only a new active array antenna of the same manufacturer. If not asking for the new composite airframe and the TWNs it could be as $41-42 mil per a bird, methinks.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Oct 2009 00:15

Cain Marko wrote:Well done Shashank, that is pure eye candy! Esp. the first two. These fulcrums look nothing like the original A. The bubble canopies, the large wings - simply superb! A dramatic mix of fulcrum, and eagle I'd say.Fabulous feast!

I dare say it is already a competition to the Rambha. What have BRfites christened this beauty? I like Baaz for the IAF fulcrums, Vajra is good too - what will the IN call it?

CM.

I hate to say this (because the original term 'Rambha' for the MKI greatly disturbed me, because I never found that actress the least bit attractive, and Rakesh did name the MKI for her rather abundant proportions, did'nt he !:D) but I'd call the MiG-29K the Aish..not a young beauty, but easily one of the most attractive anywhere with curves that get enhanced as she grows a bit older..

Prem · Post by **Prem** » 05 Oct 2009 00:20

I think Mig29k Mohini can compete with Rambha in in any showoff.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 05 Oct 2009 00:27

Igorr wrote:
Austin wrote:

Are these modern cockpit glasses photochromatic in nature and darken when exposed to sunlight ?
I guess they are also bulletproof against small arms fire of atleast 12.7 mm bullet.
Photo-chromatic glasses are not a new at all. they were already used in 70th for the glasses against nuclear tests light eradiation and in mil optics for nuclear war. And 12.7 mm is too heavy, Mi-28 has such level of defense on its glasses. it can maximum be defended against 7.62 mm regular (non armor-piercing) bullets.

are you sure that its photochromatic canopy or a coating of that gold oxide that reduced the RCS of the cockpit instruments..I remember that some Indian establishment had developed that coating to reduce the radar reflectivity of the cockpit which greatly contributed to the RCS of a fighter..its already seen that the MiG-29K have some RCS reduction feature near the radome as well..

parshuram · Post by **parshuram** » 06 Oct 2009 10:38

Apologies if posted earlier

csharma · Post by **csharma** » 06 Oct 2009 11:15

Coming from C RajaMohan, this does not sound good.

China's naval nationalism: Has A K Antony blinked?

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/china ... d/525249/0

Why is it all right for the Chinese Navy to operate in India's backyard and wrong, from the perspective of our Ministry of Defence, for the Indian Navy to conduct naval exercises in China's frontyard?

As Beijing revels in its newly minted naval nationalism, New Delhi seems determined to curb the Indian Navy's enthusiasm to raise the nation's maritime profile.

The MoD's decision, at the eleventh hour, to pull the services out of a multilateral naval exercise in the Western Pacific last week, begs some serious questions. Is the Minister of Defence, A K Antony, in sync with India's naval aspirations? Or has he begun to feel the heat from the Chinese pressures on our land borders?

Questions about his uncertain naval vision arose when he refused to let the Navy join the international operations against pirates in the Gulf of Aden last year. As Antony dithered for long before saying yes, Beijing used the international concerns on piracy to mount its first ever expeditionary naval operation into the Indian Ocean.

As it completes its year-long deployment in the Indian Ocean, Beijing is now eager to expand its maritime cooperation with the US and other western powers that have begun to acknowledge China's rise as a naval power.

The Indian Navy, which has a longer record of modern operations at sea and enjoys many maritime advantages over China, appears increasingly tied down by the terrible timidity of the MoD's political leadership.

In contrast, the Chinese Communist Party has embarked on a massive mobilisation of naval nationalism. CCP chairman Hu Jintao repeatedly talks of China's "manifest maritime destiny". Thanks to the CCP campaign, Chinese citizens are turning up in droves to offer personal donations to help Beijing build aircraft carriers.

If Antony thinks he is being 'nice' to the Chinese by cancelling exercises in the Western Pacific, he has no inkling of how Beijing thinks. The Chinese respect those with the will to power, and they mount relentless pressure on those who wilt.

Recall the recent Chinese tease for a naval condominium with the US: Washington could stay in the Eastern Pacific and China would police the Western Pacific and Indian Oceans.

As it rises, China will inevitably build a powerful navy. It is also logical that China will protect its growing interests in the Indian Ocean. There is no way India can or should stop it. New Delhi must focus, instead, on consolidating its own position in the Indian Ocean and elevating its maritime profile in the Western Pacific.

It is that strategic parity that will provide the basis for a much needed maritime dialogue and cooperation with China. But if New Delhi is eager to offer unilateral naval concessions, why blame Beijing for turning up the heat?

(C. Raja Mohan is Henry A. Kissinger Chair in Foreign Policy and International Relations at the Library of Congress, Washington DC).

kit · Post by **kit** » 06 Oct 2009 13:39

Guess thats just a small reminder to the yanks not to take India for granted.India has to or rather will have to engage China with or without american help.Rajamohans credentials might be a cause for some bias.Just keep an open mind on that one.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 06 Oct 2009 13:44

Indian Navy in Sri Lanka

Igorr · Post by **Igorr** » 06 Oct 2009 15:03

Kartik wrote: are you sure that its photochromatic canopy or a coating of that gold oxide that reduced the RCS of the cockpit instruments...

I didn't say so. Only said the photochromatic technic isn't new at all.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 06 Oct 2009 17:13

It's not a Q whether AKA blinked.The freedom of the seas must be available to any nation including China.However,if the dragon tries to meddle in our "pond",so can we follow its example and send our maritime forces into the S.China Sea,to Taiwan and Vietnam on a permanent basis.India can easily enter into base agreements with Vietnam,provide it with ballistic and cruise missiles-why there was earlier talk of the IN using Cam Ranh Bay with lease facilities.Let us face facts.In the next decade,Chinese carriers will be operating in the IOR and our duty will be to track them on a 24/7 basis just as the US and Russia did with each others fleets during the Cold War.WE must also build up our strength so that we can pay China back with the same compliment.

Good news that the IN is to buy 6 naval LCAs and also significant that Lockheed "choked" on prooviding India wiht the required tech.This will have an effect on US weapon sales like the MMRCA deal too,if these US companies cannot get govt. approval for military transfers,which is absurd given the readiness and eagerness with which they are ready to supply Pak with weaponry.The US's loss will be Europe's gain,most probably the French!

India To Look for Foreign Partner To Help Develop Naval LCA
By vivek raghuvanshi

Published: 5 Oct 2009 17:02 NEW DELHI - India has decided to look for global partners in developing the naval version of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), as Lockheed Martin failed to get needed security clearances.

Meanwhile, the Indian Navy has ordered six naval versions of the single-engine LCA, giving a boost to the homegrown program. The move is seen as a further commitment by the Navy to the LCA program, said a senior Navy official.

Lockheed Martin ran out of time in getting the necessary clearances from the U.S. government to enter into a contract with India on providing consulting services in the design and development of the naval version of the LCA, said a senior Indian Defence Ministry official. The ministry has no choice but to look for partners in the Western world other than the United States, so that the LCA (naval) program does not suffer further delays, the ministry official added.

Lockheed executives based in India were unavailable for comment.

The Navy only last month ordered six naval-version LCAs and has committed about $30 million for each aircraft.

The naval version of the LCA is a small, lightweight, multirole supersonic fighter jet. It is under development and is required to operate from an aircraft carrier with a "ski-jump" takeoff ramp and arrested recovery system. The first naval prototype is being built by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd. (HAL), Bangalore, and is scheduled for integration tests and first flight toward the end of this year.

The naval LCA will be used on a domestically built aircraft carrier, the Air Defence Ship, which is due to enter service with the Navy in 2014.

India is looking for an overseas partner to help in optimizing the landing gear design and making associated changes in the aircraft's structural configuration to bring down the weight of the aircraft by at least 500 kilograms.

As the LCA would be operating from am aircraft carrier, the Defence Ministry will seek the help of an overseas vendor in determining the location and attachment of the arrester hook system on the deck of the ship, and aerodynamic fixes to improve the plane's takeoff and landing performance on the carrier, said a scientist with the Bangalore-based Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which is developing the LCA.

The overseas partner also will advise Indian scientists on the need for an alternative engine with higher thrust. In addition, the foreign partner will advise the ADA on ways to test the arrestor hook system.

The LCA (naval) version has been designed with structural and landing gear modifications to the existing Air Force version to handle larger loads and arrested recovery.

The need for a foreign partner arose during the course of the design and construction of the LCA (naval) version after it was observed that the weight of the naval version compared with the Air Force version is higher than originally planned and budgeted. With the General Electric (GE) F404 jet engine and the aircraft's mass, the performance of aircraft was found to be lower then anticipated.

The Indian Air Force's version of the LCA also is being powered by the GE 404, but the Air Force wants a higher-thrust engine, as there has been an increase in the weight of the aircraft due to increased demands by the user.

E-mail: vraghuvanshi@defensenews.com.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 06 Oct 2009 17:43

Kartik wrote:
Igorr wrote:Photo-chromatic glasses are not a new at all. they were already used in 70th for the glasses against nuclear tests light eradiation and in mil optics for nuclear war. And 12.7 mm is too heavy, Mi-28 has such level of defense on its glasses. it can maximum be defended against 7.62 mm regular (non armor-piercing) bullets.
are you sure that its photochromatic canopy or a coating of that gold oxide that reduced the RCS of the cockpit instruments..I remember that some Indian establishment had developed that coating to reduce the radar reflectivity of the cockpit which greatly contributed to the RCS of a fighter..its already seen that the MiG-29K have some RCS reduction feature near the radome as well..

yes zhuk me radar also has radar absorbing material behind antenna and front of bulk head

see the difference in this picture
http://i.flamber.ru/files/st1/121192255 ... 1080_o.jpg

and
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... -Radar.jpg
and
http://www.acig.org/artman/uploads/pic11_002.jpg

so from first picture its clear that using black material like this must have some useful effect in reducing RCS

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 06 Oct 2009 20:56

What's the use of the built-in retractable ladder on the MiG-29K? is it for use in emergency ? I think its perhaps a first on a Russian produced aircraft....I think the only western a/c having this feature is the F-18 Superhornet.

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 07 Oct 2009 01:29

Baldev wrote:PHOTOS of IN pilots training in Russia on MiG 29 KUB:

seems like those helmets which Indian pilots have also used with rafale

you mean like this?

ManuJ · Post by **ManuJ** » 07 Oct 2009 01:47

From http://www.frontline.in/stories/20091023262110600.htm

According to Rajagopalan, the R&DE(E), with support from the Navy, has ventured into building the superstructure of Corvette-class warships with carbon-epoxy composites. Next would be the development of ship hulls with fibre-reinforced plastic.

Another instance of the pro-active IN. Must be still in early R&D stages, else we would have heard more about it.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 07 Oct 2009 02:03

This news about LM now and Boeing earlier not being able to get past SD/whatever is based on a problem in their IUS') recs - that India will need permission from the US to sell the LCA.

That problem does not arise with the MRCA.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 07 Oct 2009 08:35

Tamil vernacular newspaper is reporting trial of a submarine along the South West Coast

It says it is a trial that will last from Oct 6 to 10th between Kochi and Colachel and warns the fishermen not to venture for a mile along the route of the submarine. First time I have seen such a report. Wonder what this submarine is.

sum · Post by **sum** » 07 Oct 2009 08:39

The Nerpa is in town??

vijyeta · Post by **vijyeta** » 07 Oct 2009 09:20

sum wrote:The Nerpa is in town??

Why not Arihant?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 07 Oct 2009 09:35

the ladder should be useful for naval a/c - one less piece of loose equipment to worry. on land
again it permits faster ops from austere aerodromes or rough fields - a particular russian fetish
given their vast siberian fiefdom.

bhavik · Post by **bhavik** » 07 Oct 2009 15:42

India-Japan-US Navy exercise near South China Sea called off.
Remember even Obama has refused to meet Dalai Lama before his China Visit.

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/china ... ed/525249/

China has already stopped respecting india.
What can the Indian Navy do now?:|

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 07 Oct 2009 16:28

India gives names to 3 frigates built by Russia

KALININGRAD, October 7 (RIA Novosti) - Three frigates being built at the Yantar shipyard in Russia's Baltic exclave of Kaliningrad for the Indian navy have been named by the Indian president, a shipyard spokesman said on Wednesday.

Russia is building three Project 11356 modified Krivak III class (also known as Talwar class) guided missile frigates for the Indian Navy under a $1.6 billion contract signed in July, 2006.

"Three frigates for the Indian navy, which are being built at our shipyard, have been given names - the Teg [Saber], the Tarkash [Quiver], and the Trikand [Bow]. Indian President Pratibha Patil has personally named the ships," Sergei Mikhailov said.

"All three hulls have been completed... The first frigate in the series is expected to float out in October. The shipyard should be able to deliver all three vessels to the customer in 2011-2012," the official said.

Yantar's director Igor Orlov earlier said the shipyard had previously taken out a $110 million loan from Russian national development bank Vnesheconombank (VEB) but has now been forced to seek an additional $60 million loan due to "financial constraints."

The Talwar class frigate has deadweight of 4,000 metric tons and a speed of 30 knots, and is capable of accomplishing a wide range of maritime missions, primarily hunting down and destroying large surface ships and submarines.

Russia has previously built three Talwar class frigates for India - INS Talwar (Sword), INS Trishul (Trident), and INS Tabar (Axe).

All of the new frigates will be armed with eight BrahMos supersonic cruise missiles rather than 3M-54E Klub-N anti-ship missiles, which were installed on previous frigates.

They will be also equipped with a 100-mm gun, a Shtil air defense system, two Kashtan air defense gun/missile systems, two twin 533-mm torpedo tubes, and an anti-submarine warfare helicopter.

http://en.rian.ru/mlitary_news/20091007/156380619.html

AmitR · Post by **AmitR** » 07 Oct 2009 16:49

bhavik wrote:India-Japan-US Navy exercise near South China Sea called off.
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/china ... ed/525249/

|

This has already been posted a please do care to read before posting old stuff.

bhavik · Post by **bhavik** » 07 Oct 2009 18:00

Apologies if posted already.