Indian Naval Discussion

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 27 Oct 2009 01:11

tsarkar wrote:Should be here http://media.bharat-rakshak.com/aero/Misc/

Hi....that URL is invalid. Can you please check it again ???

Thanks

George J · Post by **George J** » 27 Oct 2009 01:21

sunny y wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Hi....that URL is invalid. Can you please check it again ???

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Misc/

It's not a sub-album you can see the INS Dunagiri pics in the middle.

vishnu.nv · Post by **vishnu.nv** » 27 Oct 2009 01:23

Hi....that URL is invalid. Can you please check it again ???

Dude,

That link is not valid... But just go back to gallery and you can find the Misc Gallery for BR Forum there you can find the pics he mentioned.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 27 Oct 2009 12:17

George,

You haven’t given any proof substantiating your point of view, other than oblique references to some uncles. Instead you keep disparaging me, without stating any facts, arrogantly displaying your brat behavior.

To answer your question, yes, I have spent 20 years on ships. Yes, I know all parts of a ship blindfolded, including operations and engine rooms. And I still spend time at sea with my family since we’re all keen sailors and yachtsmen.

No, I haven’t taken any pictures, because I never felt the urge to take nor was it allowed to take. No, there were no LCD screen in my time. Only dials in the engine room and PPI, RHI indicators for radars in operations room.

“Anyone can take an exterior pic if the ship if it happens to be there. Not everyone can take the interior pics of the ship”

What do you mean by “if it happens to be there”? The pictures make it amply clear that it’s a fleet review in high seas. And I was onboard taking pictures as ships passed. And the deck weapons/systems pictures make it amply clear that I was onboard taking “interior pictures”.

Since “Not everyone can take the interior pics of the ship”, why don’t you ask your uncles to send across pictures?

I haven’t seen one shred of evidence from you, other than your so called “uncles”. All you go on saying is “You’re wrong, I am right, because my uncle told me”.

Outgrow your diapers and uncles and provide something tangible. Let everyone know you and your uncle's credentials. What was your cadre? What was your service number? What were your billets?

Ask your khandaan what the IPMS terminals are doing in the operations room. My understanding is that the terminals are IPMS consoles. Its obvious that IPMS terminals wont be present in operations room, where weapons and sensors are controlled, not machinery. Neither has Ajai mentioned anywhere that the picture refers to operations room.

I don’t recollect the original context regarding the OTO SRGM, and dont recollect stating anything wrong. Instead of yapping verbosely that I’m wrong, do state my original comments and state why they were wrong.

“I am very disappointed in you tsarkar”

I do understand that you’re an old timer on Bharat Rakshak, probably on personal terms with moderators, that allows you to get away with your brat behavior, that wouldn’t be tolerated with others.

However, do show some maturity, AND STATE FACTS substantiating your points, rather that wasting time and words spouting bullshit around uncles, catering and payroll.

Do meet me personally the next time I’m in Mumbai, so that you get to know me in flesh and blood and I’ll take you to IMSC/US Club for a drink followed by a whacking, that you sorely need to mend your ill manners and patronizing behavior.

Lastly, I post here so that people get glimpses of the real world rather than the nonsense spouted by the Prasun types. I don’t get anything doing one-upmanship in the virtual world, because I have enough to keep me busy in the real world. And yes, things change, so I don’t claim to know all. I recollect incorrectly identifying ECM pods and being corrected by Sunil Upa & JCage (hope I’ve used the right names).

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 27 Oct 2009 12:31

George J wrote:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/media/Misc/

It's not a sub-album you can see the INS Dunagiri pics in the middle.

Thanks a lot George & Vishnu

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 27 Oct 2009 14:00

well said tsarkar !!

How is BEL EMCCA doing? I worked on this system for almost 1 year..

Is its use quite widespread in IN ?

D Roy · Post by **D Roy** » 27 Oct 2009 14:19

Hi tsarkar,

I have a question.

it was reported in the press that the WJ-FAC's being built at GRSE may have ASW capability or at least submarine detecting capability.

Are they talking about a towed array system?

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 27 Oct 2009 15:16

Manjgu – It passed Sea Acceptance Trials and Warship Acceptance Trials around 2004-6 and should be standard fit on any locally built ships, unless something newer is in the works.

DRoy – I am not aware of any specific ASW capabilities of GRSE FACs. No ASW equipment is prima facie visible in the photographs. The hull form will lose its hydrodynamics if a standard sonar dome is added. Towed array is too big to be accommodated in the stern. I am assuming its incorrect reporting, or if GRSE released the news, it meant depth charge rails can be added if the need arises and the commercial echo sounder in principle could be used for sub hunting.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 27 Oct 2009 15:31

Dear BRFites,

I don't mean to fish in troubled waters here, but please cease fire before this degenerates into another public spat on BRF. We've had enough in the recent past, dont you think?

Well wishers of BRF, like me, are here for knowledge and knowledge only and have no interest in seeing 2 seniors settling scores with eachother in public. I respect both - George and tsarkar immensely and would hate to see someone leaving BRF in disgust in the end. It would a huge loss to BRF and to me as well.

If you HAVE to reply and sort things out, then do so over emails/phones or in IMSC clubs!

Chill out guys, the world is watching and so are the Pakis!!! Lets not give them something to cheer and laugh about.

Om shanti shanti shantihi!

(Mods: Delete this post if you feel like it)

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 27 Oct 2009 16:54

George, please lay off Tsarkar. He has made his points, you have made yours.

let people decide for themselves

There is no need to get overtly sarcastic which can / will be treated as flame baiting.

George J · Post by **George J** » 27 Oct 2009 21:01

Jagan:

Yes....master.

But come on.... this guy has the gall to "invite" me for a drink to US club....can I at least tear him a new one for that? We know that he is never going to come up with Ops Room pics coz he does not have any but he considers himself fully qualified to rubbish the one person who has OPEN SOURCE pics. But why did he have to bring up the US club, it brings back so many memories

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 27 Oct 2009 21:35

George J.. I got the pics vetted by somebody from the navy, and I think tsarkar is right...

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 27 Oct 2009 21:43

tsarkar wrote:Manjgu – It passed Sea Acceptance Trials and Warship Acceptance Trials around 2004-6 and should be standard fit on any locally built ships, unless something newer is in the works.

DRoy – I am not aware of any specific ASW capabilities of GRSE FACs. No ASW equipment is prima facie visible in the photographs. The hull form will lose its hydrodynamics if a standard sonar dome is added. Towed array is too big to be accommodated in the stern. I am assuming its incorrect reporting, or if GRSE released the news, it meant depth charge rails can be added if the need arises and the commercial echo sounder in principle could be used for sub hunting.

Mr Tsarkar,

How about attending our next BR meet in Mumbai ?

How about arranging a BR meet on a IN ship ? It would be great exoerience for a lot of us lesser mortals.

Could you please contact me on

kersikdotiwalla at rediffmail dot com

Regards
Kersi

maz · Post by **maz** » 27 Oct 2009 21:48

George, why are you picking a fight with TSarkar? Unless you have been in the Navy, please refrain from needlesslly challenging 'paanwallas' on the forum.

Do you have any idea just how difficult it is to obtain Ops rooms pictures? Many, many factors have to line up at the just the right time for one to get ops rooms pics of IN vessels without someone preventing said evolution.

George J · Post by **George J** » 27 Oct 2009 21:50

manjgu wrote:George J.. I got the pics vetted by somebody from the navy, and I think tsarkar is right...

http://www.nausena-bharti.nic.in/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=36 wrote:Executive Branch

As an officer of the Executive Branch one can exercise command of ships, submarines and aircraft. Executive officers can specialise in any of the following:-

(a) Gunnery & Missiles
(b) Navigation and Direction
(c) Anti-Submarine Warfare
(d) Communications
(e) Aviation
(f) Submarine
(g) Hydrography
(h) Diving.

The other cadres that form part of the Executive Branch are – Law, Air Traffic Control, Naval Armament Inspection and Logistics.

Refer to the above table and tell me WHICH person in the Navy vetted it. The only person qualified to vet it is (a) Gunnery&Missile. These are the guys who man the Ops Room.

Go back and read my post and see the portion where I said "hint hint hint".

If you are Logistics you can still be on the same ship but you will be doing Catering and Payroll (again refer back to my post).

So it DOES matter who you talk to and about what.

I really hope tsarkar is a, b or d. If not .....well at least I get an invite to US club.

Maz:
I am glad you chimed in. If someone is qualified to rubbish actual Ops Room pics posted by Ajai Shukla and not able to produce one of his own he really does not have any credibility.

Oh and trust me I do know EXACTLY what I am talking about.

Edit: Unless you guys changed the terminology when I was absent. Panwallah refers to actual in-service personnel who cannot be directly ascribed to any information and must be taken with a grain of salt. Origin: while I was having pan outside xyz this is what I heard. The correct term for ex-serviceman or in-service personnel posting on BRF is Superjingo. The only publicly identified superjingos are RayC and tsarkar. There are others who have not been identified and for obvious reasons. And I would take pains to point out that not every superjingo is qualified to talk about everything in their service.

This is not a BR phenomenon even the services understand this very well. I was told of an incident at staff college where one of the students knew a lot more about IMINT than the instructor since he was a Mig-25 driver. What he brought to the table was duly acknowledged. Or me....when I had to choose between what HAL Radar tech said about the radar spec vs what a certain rookie driver said about the radar. One is a lowly tech whose job is the radar the other flies a plane which happens to have a radar on it.

sam_kamath · Post by **sam_kamath** » 27 Oct 2009 22:01

George J wrote:
manjgu wrote:George J.. I got the pics vetted by somebody from the navy, and I think tsarkar is right...

http://www.nausena-bharti.nic.in/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=36 wrote:Executive Branch

As an officer of the Executive Branch one can exercise command of ships, submarines and aircraft. Executive officers can specialise in any of the following:-

(a) Gunnery & Missiles
(b) Navigation and Direction
(c) Anti-Submarine Warfare
(d) Communications
(e) Aviation
(f) Submarine
(g) Hydrography
(h) Diving.

The other cadres that form part of the Executive Branch are – Law, Air Traffic Control, Naval Armament Inspection and Logistics.
Refer to the above table and tell me WHICH person in the Navy vetted it. The only person qualified to vet it is (a) Gunnery&Missile. These are the guys who man the Ops Room.

Go back and read my post and see the portion where I said "hint hint hint".

If you are Logistics you can still be on the same ship but you will be doing Catering and Payroll (again refer back to my post).

So it DOES matter who you talk to and about what.

I really hope tsarkar is a, b or d. If not .....well at least I get an invite to US club.

Maz:
I am glad you chimed in. If someone is qualified to rubbish actual Ops Room pics posted by Ajai Shukla and not able to produce one of his own he really does not have any credibility.

Oh and trust me I do know EXACTLY what I am talking about.

George J is being targeted, Georgej please lay low ... we would not like to see another oldie quit this forum because he knows the difference between bridge pictures and public circulation pictures. Most of us here who know something about the navy know what you are HINTING at BIG time ..... Please let others bask in the sunshine of being able to take the pictures... you know what you know we know what we know they know what they know... lets not loose another one to the oldies elimination witch hunt.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 27 Oct 2009 22:09

maz wrote:..please refrain from needlesslly challenging 'paanwallas' on the forum..

wow! quite powerfully worded..mm.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 27 Oct 2009 22:31

George J wrote:
manjgu wrote:George J.. I got the pics vetted by somebody from the navy, and I think tsarkar is right...

http://www.nausena-bharti.nic.in/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=36 wrote:Executive Branch

As an officer of the Executive Branch one can exercise command of ships, submarines and aircraft. Executive officers can specialise in any of the following:-

(a) Gunnery & Missiles
(b) Navigation and Direction
(c) Anti-Submarine Warfare
(d) Communications
(e) Aviation
(f) Submarine
(g) Hydrography
(h) Diving.

The other cadres that form part of the Executive Branch are – Law, Air Traffic Control, Naval Armament Inspection and Logistics.
Refer to the above table and tell me WHICH person in the Navy vetted it. The only person qualified to vet it is (a) Gunnery&Missile. These are the guys who man the Ops Room.

Old chap, Not entirely true.....

There is also the ubiquitous Electrical Officer who is intimately acquainted with the operation and maintenance of all except Diving and Law. Incidentally there are many Electrical officers who are also Divers and at least two I know of who are also lawyers.

The techies are often very much better at logistics than the logistics guys. They have to be because the shoe pinches them the most.

Though not generally admitted, often the techies do a lot of hand holding during actual ops.

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 27 Oct 2009 23:27

Radiolocating system KRM-66E
http://www.granit-electron.com/products ... m_66_1.jpg
http://www.granit-electron.com/products ... m_66_2.jpg

Fire control system "Purga" for bombs and torpedoes
http://www.granit-electron.com/products/img/purga2.jpg

Shipborne equipment of the control system "Yakhont"
http://www.granit-electron.com/products ... u1_sml.jpg

Ship-borne equipment of the control system "Uran E"
http://www.granit-electron.com/products/img/uran2.jpg

Small-size antisubmarine complex for surface ships "Medvedka"
http://www.granit-electron.com/products ... edka_2.jpg

http://translate.googleusercontent.com/ ... anAIUS4How

brahmos seeker is provided by this company

Baldev · Post by **Baldev** » 27 Oct 2009 23:35

Mr prasun posted this picture in his post

Integrated devices and arrangements
http://www.granit-electron.com/products ... rated1.jpg
and this is from GRANIT ELEKTRON

maz · Post by **maz** » 28 Oct 2009 01:16

George J,

thanks for clarifying the matter of paanwallahs viz former paanwallahs. Anyhow, please drop this ops room or not ops room matter. time to move on to other things. Like what radar does the P-1& have?

George J · Post by **George J** » 28 Oct 2009 06:21

chetak wrote:...........Incidentally there are many Electrical officers who are also Divers and at least two I know of who are also lawyers......The techies are often very much better at logistics than the logistics guys. They have to be because the shoe pinches them the most.....Though not generally admitted, often the techies do a lot of hand holding during actual ops.

Are you talking about Diving the badge or Diving the specialty ? There are jingos whose "uncles" are submariners who also are divers IIRC...i.e a "badge", the submariner "uncle" was trained in the Diving school which is run by the folks who chose Diving specialty. And by logistics I am guessing its all the fine folks who goto INS Hamla and learn how to bake a cake or do IT-Vity and Payroll. Hamla is the place for logistics.

Maz:
I strongly feel the symmetry of information on this issue is on Ajai Shukla's side and if we truly want to elevate the discussion about IN's capabilities then we have to address where all the magic happens. A radar or missile or gun or other systems don't amount to anything if the information is not duly integrated, displayed and acted upon and all that happens in the Ops Room. Its really an incredible place. Like I said O_P_E_N S_O_U_R_C_E, this is the same Navy wont let me take a pic of a painting.

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 28 Oct 2009 07:46

Are you talking about Diving the badge or Diving the specialty ? There are jingos whose "uncles" are submariners who also are divers IIRC...i.e a "badge", the submariner "uncle" was trained in the Diving school which is run by the folks who chose Diving specialty. And by logistics I am guessing its all the fine folks who goto INS Hamla and learn how to bake a cake or do IT-Vity and Payroll. Hamla is the place for logistics.

George, what is up with your "uncle" fixation? Can you refrain from denigrating other members on the forum; being an old timer, you should lead by example arguing sensibly and showing courtesy instead of winning the "Uncle-clue-hint-rant post of the week" Award and its only Tuesday here!

George J · Post by **George J** » 28 Oct 2009 07:51

That post was neither directed to you nor did it solicit a response from you. If you feel the urge to respond I cannot stop you nor do I expect you to comprehend what "uncle" means. So whatever award you want to bestow on me really is irrelevant to me but if it floats your boat you can call me whatever you like.....

atma · Post by **atma** » 28 Oct 2009 07:56

After the recent bloodletting and bad blood on this forum, as well as the alacrity with which relative ignorance is supressed rather than fostered and corrected, like in the good old days just a few years back, I appeal to all to not use this forum to settle personal differences, but rather foster harmonious dialogue, and enlighten us few thristy for knowledge. This would be in keeping with the mission statement of our emblem.

George J · Post by **George J** » 28 Oct 2009 08:08

There is no bloodletting, tsarkar is right......if I ever get to meet him I would certainly have a beer with him. But that still does not mean I will let him get away with incorrect information/assessment merely on the basis of shiny brouchers. In this instant....Ajai Shukla is absolutely correct and his write up is spot on. Rather than appreciate/evaluate it, jingos seem have totally ignored/missed what he had to say just to stick to shiny brochures.....this is NOT what BRF is supposed to be.

atma · Post by **atma** » 28 Oct 2009 08:47

I can not even claim to have the kind of knowledge that some of you have. I am a busy physician, in the now to be frozen tundra stamping the swine flu pestilence.. I visit this forum to gain knowledge. I recall as a new member 3 years ago, after lurking for many more, I encountered a post from tsarkar, perhaps circa 2007. I challenged it, and researched it, and then finally did a "Paanwallah"...talked to someone I know very well in the IN. I realised that tsarkar was right, and I promptly backed off.

The point that I am trying to make is that you may be both correct in your own right.

What I and surely other members of the fora disdain is the acrimony. We stop reading further as soon as we realize a certain post is an acrimonious rejoinder.

We mostly visit BRF to gain insight and knowledge. I use it to keep my synapses sharp with details and statistics of things that interest me.

Again, in the interest of the forum at large, let us all try and exchange knowledge, in an amicable manner, befitting the mission statement in our emblem.

I shall now dive for cover, afraid of being banned for being too sanctimonious!

Avarachan · Post by **Avarachan** » 28 Oct 2009 09:36

Atma, thanks for your sensible post. I agree.

Mods, please feel free to delete this post (that is, mine). Thanks.

George J · Post by **George J** » 28 Oct 2009 10:19

Chetak:
Sorry apparently I was mistaken apparently this jingo's "uncle" is a submariner with a diving badge and para wings, talk about an over achiever.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Oct 2009 11:19

George J... i could not resist ..

anybody who has been on naval ships and has had access to the ops room can vet ( ie identify if it ops room or otherwise) the photo... and to the best of my knowledge its not only the missle/gunnery officers who have seen the innards of an ops room. even folks from DRDO/BEL have had access to ops room. and i sure electical/navigation / ASW / comm officers routinley go inside the ops room.

while working on EMCCA, even folks from a private software vendor ( contractor) where taken to mumbai from delhi and shown the innards of a ops room on board some frigate ( dont remember the name ..its been some years).

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Oct 2009 11:27

Not to mention a BR Bombay meet where we visited several ships and a sub many moons ago and weer shown vital innards.

George J · Post by **George J** » 28 Oct 2009 11:52

Philip wrote:Not to mention a BR Bombay meet where we visited several ships and a sub many moons ago and weer shown vital innards.

That's awesome....so where are the pics?

I am sure you won't disappoint me, you would have pic of ops rooms and engine rooms from at least one of these "several ships" and "vital innards".

I would love to see what you pass off as "engine room" on a Mumbai, Talwar and Brahamaputra.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 28 Oct 2009 12:48

George,it was quite a while ago and at that time pics were taboo,for obvious reasons.Strangely,being the first time we got permission thanks to a senior naval officer,we never even asked! However,during our visit to the sub,we noticed that certain key modules of eqpt. were completely covered.Since then there has been far more openness and pride in "showing off" capability,especially as the IN has been exercising with many foreign navies.Key parameters of peformance however I'm sure will never be available to any outsider and possibly even some "disinformation" at work to deceive the enemy too!

Perhaps we could arrange another meet sometime in the next few months.Kaps can be the willing point man I'm sure.Navy Day is fast approaching and ships and installations are usually thrown open to the public.A good time for a visit.

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 28 Oct 2009 14:07

Dear Naval Ayotullahs

What on the earth is " IMSC/US Club " and that too in Mumbai!? I have my thumb in my mouth and a pip around my neck. Whack me to your satisfaction - that may vent some energies here.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 28 Oct 2009 14:21

I think US club = united services club. not sure if thats co-located with the colaba golf course where select civilians are allowed membership - like ratan tata! (all posted mil officers in mumbai ofcourse get membership)

on a visit with my "unkil" in 1995, saw tata saar playing golf with his two dogs in close attendance on the putting green. all sorts of CEO types rub shoulders there. some come there just for a morning or evening walk along the seaface.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 28 Oct 2009 14:26

VikB wrote:Dear Naval Ayotullahs

What on the earth is " IMSC/US Club " and that too in Mumbai!? I have my thumb in my mouth and a pip around my neck. Whack me to your satisfaction - that may vent some energies here.

Here's what google search gave me: http://wikimapia.org/139295/IMSC-and-WNC-Club

Also check out the first comment

Next Constant Peg at this club, what says?

VikB · Post by **VikB** » 28 Oct 2009 15:37

^^^ will we SDREs be allowed there?

BhairavP · Post by **BhairavP** » 28 Oct 2009 15:42

Singha wrote:I think US club = united services club. not sure if thats co-located with the colaba golf course where select civilians are allowed membership - like ratan tata! (all posted mil officers in mumbai ofcourse get membership)

on a visit with my "unkil" in 1995, saw tata saar playing golf with his two dogs in close attendance on the putting green. all sorts of CEO types rub shoulders there. some come there just for a morning or evening walk along the seaface.

[OT] - yes. US Club is right there, Mr. Tata lives 10 minutes away. They have some very nice New Year's parties [/OT]

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Oct 2009 17:52

Phillip, I just checked with the EMCCA team..

the EMCCA team went to INS Virat and were taken to both the bridge and ops room. the team spent quite a good time ( excess of 1 hour) in the ops room understanding all the aspects. and for the kind information of George ji there are all kinds of folks in addition to missile/gunnery officers as part of the ops room team.. the Electronic warfare guys, the ASW guys, radar specialists etc etc... ( and all of these can vet the pictures)..

negi · Post by **negi** » 28 Oct 2009 19:17

Afaik ISMC/US club is actually "Naval Officer's Institute" , every naval base in India usually has one . To be honest I don't think we SDREs can become members so easily , however one can always visit as guests with someone who is a member and willing to entertain .

Viraat is a vintage design I doubt its ops rooms and bridge will be anywhere close to the new generation of warships being built or commissioned. I have been on Viraat on quite a few occasions but that was back in 90s and at that time all the communication was via sound powered phone and a Navy style intercom. Engine room was pretty scary and dark I only saw gauges all around no flashy LCD or panels.Don't know if things have changed now.

Btw one will be amused to see Viraat's hangar is spacious enough to house the air wing as well as have enough space to serve as a badminton court or even host several hundred people on a family day.