Indian Naval Discussion

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sumshyam
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sumshyam » 02 Dec 2009 19:37

SaiK wrote:why not nuke powered IAC2?


should.....I be sorry.......but I am not agree with your point Brando..!!

Yes...I think we should go for it...as we have deals to support our need of nuclear fuel.. with some 8 countries...correct me...if I am wrong..!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Brando » 02 Dec 2009 19:44

sumshyam wrote:
SaiK wrote:why not nuke powered IAC2?


should.....I be sorry.......but I am not agree with your point Brando..!!

Yes...I think we should go for it...as we have deals to support our need of nuclear fuel.. with some 8 countries...correct me...if I am wrong..!!


You should be sorry. :lol:

Yes, we have deals for "CIVILIAN" nuclear energy not military! Nobody is going to want to supply nuclear fuel to India so that it can enrich that into fuel for nuclear submarines and aircraft carriers! That would be crazy! Almost any other use except nuclear power plants would be frowned upon by the International community.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby L Ram » 02 Dec 2009 19:58

Just from curiosity.... is it feasible to use fast breeder reactor technology for nuclear propulsion of ships???? Guru's can shed some light in this aspect :| .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sumshyam » 02 Dec 2009 20:24

Brando wrote:Yes, we have deals for "CIVILIAN" nuclear energy not military!


Ok...use theirs for civilian purpose...and ours for military....I think they don't have any jurisdiction on our indigenous sources...simple :!: :?: :!:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 02 Dec 2009 20:48

miniaturizing a fast thorium breeder is a better safe option that does not have to refuel for 2 years. the project should start now.

but that should be eventually replaced by our 3rd phase of miniaturized thorium thermal reactors, that gets fueled by U233 from the breeders.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Baldev » 02 Dec 2009 22:06

I didn't know that the russian navy is now a part of Indian navy.
Last edited by Rahul M on 02 Dec 2009 22:09, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: OT post.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 03 Dec 2009 04:21


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sunilUpa » 03 Dec 2009 06:10

Radar Antenna Installed On Boeing P-8A Poseidon



December 2, 2009 - A Boeing and a Raytheon employee complete installation of an APY-10 radar antenna on P-8A Poseidon test aircraft T2 last month at the Boeing Developmental Center in Seattle.

T2 is the P-8A program's primary mission system test article. Following completion of the next phase of radar installation and additional instrumentation, T2 will enter the U.S. Navy's flight test program in early 2010. During flight test, Navy and Boeing pilots will verify the performance of all aircraft sensors.

The P-8A radar antenna was developed and delivered by Raytheon. Boeing's industry team is building and testing five anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft as part of a System Development and Demonstration contract awarded in 2004.

The P-8A Poseidon is a long-range anti-submarine warfare, anti-surface warfare, intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance aircraft capable of broad-area, maritime and littoral operations. A derivative of the Next-Generation 737-800, the P-8A combines superior performance and reliability with an advanced mission system that ensures maximum interoperability in the future battle space.

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kanson » 03 Dec 2009 06:36

Mig-29k and N-lca might be only for IAC-1 and Gorky.

Chances are that IAC-2 could be based on a foreign design like CVF QE modified enough to accomodate India requirements and it will be nuclear powered. Expected tonnage of displacement could be ~ 80,000 ton. It could be the next biggest thing after american super carriers. There will be two more of this class making it to a total of 5.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sumshyam » 03 Dec 2009 07:52

Kanson wrote:...enough to accomodate India requirements and it will be nuclear powered. ....


and you are speaking with reference to....

anyhow...I believe in...IF ANYTHING SOUNDS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE, GENERALLY IT IS TOO GOOD TO BE TRUE..!

and I sincerely hope I am not that pre-assumptive...!!!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 03 Dec 2009 08:03

I don't understand why that is considered too good to be true. especially when both nuclear scientists and navy admirals alike have spoken of nuclear powered surface ships for IN.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 03 Dec 2009 08:12

Kanson wrote:Expected tonnage of displacement could be ~ 80,000 ton.

And which yard in India will be able to build such a ship?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Daedalus » 03 Dec 2009 09:26

Gagan wrote:
Kanson wrote:Expected tonnage of displacement could be ~ 80,000 ton.

And which yard in India will be able to build such a ship?


Check out this page. Few lines are quoted below.
From Wikipedia wrote:Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) is the largest shipyard in India located at Kochi, Kerala.

From Wikipedia wrote:This yard has facilities to build vessels up to 1.1 Million tons and repair vessels up to 1.25 Million tons, the largest such facilities in India.

From Wikipedia wrote:The yard has delivered two of India’s largest double hull Aframax tankers each of 95,000 DWT.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby srai » 03 Dec 2009 10:14

Kanson wrote:Mig-29k and N-lca might be only for IAC-1 and Gorky.

Chances are that IAC-2 could be based on a foreign design like CVF QE modified enough to accomodate India requirements and it will be nuclear powered. Expected tonnage of displacement could be ~ 80,000 ton. It could be the next biggest thing after american super carriers. There will be two more of this class making it to a total of 5.


I doubt the 80,000 tonnes carrier design for the IAC-2. It is more likely, as you've pointed out, going to be in line with Queen Elizabeth Class design (at around 65,000 tonnes with 40 air complement).

IMO, given the similar budget of IN and the RN (over the next decade), IN will more likely resemble RN in its force structure by 2020/25 time frame before expanding beyond.

So looking at RN's Future Navy Vision, we can get an idea of where IN could be in the "Maritime Force Projection", "Maritime Security" and "Maritime Manoeuvre" concepts. The QE CVF is built around the concept of Force Projection with Carrier Strike capability (Joint Force Air Group (JFAG) - a combination of the Joint Combat Aircraft (JCA) and the Maritime Airborne Surveillance and Control (MASC) system) .

By 2020/25, IN force structure would probably look similar to this:

Maritime Force Projection - (similar composition to RN's Fleet)
3 CVF - Vikramaditya (P1143), IAC-1, IAC-2
10 DDG - 3 P15, 3 P15A, 4 P15B
16 FFG - 3 Krivak III, 3 Krivak III mod, 3 P17, 7 P17A
8 corvette - 4 P28, 4 P28A
5 LST - 2 Magar , 3 Shardul
--------------------
Total: 42 ships

12 SSK - 6 Scorpene, 6 P75A
3 SSN/SSBN - 3 ATV
1 SSN - Akula
---------------------
Total: 16 submarines


Additional Need:
(for planned 10,000 Indian Marines)
1-2 Assault Ship
1-2 Landing Platform Dock (LPD)

3 SSN
3 SSBN


Maritime Manoeuvre - to enable sustained force projection beyond IOR (similar composition to Royal Fleet Auxiliary Fleet)
4 Replenishment/Tankers - Joythi, Aditya, 2 Fleet Tanker

Additional Need:
4 Support Tankers


Plus, IN and CG will have various lightly armed ships for Maritime Security duties in the IOR.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Dec 2009 13:38

excerpt from TOI:

"Work is in progress to make INS Arihant operational for sea-trials...it should be inducted in two years or so,'' said Navy chief Admiral Nirmal Verma on Wednesday, speaking in the run-up to the Navy Day on December 4.

Though he did not elaborate, Admiral Verma did say that the "tremendous amount of capability'' gained in the ATV (advanced technology vessel) project -- under which INS Arihant was built -- would not be allowed to wither away.

The over 6,000-tonne INS Arihant will be more of `a technology demonstrator', rather than a fully-operational SSBN, for the subsequent follow-on nuclear submarines to follow.

At present, the government has sanctioned well over Rs 30,000 crore for the ATV project to construct three submarines, with the third being of a much larger size.

The `launch' of the 111-metre long INS Arihant by flooding the dry dock at the Shipbuilding Centre at Visakhapatnam on July 26 this year, in the presence of PM Manmohan Singh, marked India's entry into the select group of five nations -- US, UK, Russia, France and China -- capable of building nuclear submarines.

But there is still a long way to go. It's only after its miniature 83 MW pressurised light-water reactor is `fired' sometime next year will INS Arihant begin its extensive sea-acceptance trials.

Then only will the testing of 700-km range K-15 SLBMs (submarine-launched ballistic missiles) developed by DRDO to arm the submarine, which has four silos on its hump, come into play.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 03 Dec 2009 18:01

Chinese activity in Indian Ocean no threat to India, says Navy Chief Admiral Verma
"If you see today, the amount of energy requirements, as far as China is concerned, the … it''s a very substantial amount that they have. So, I suppose that like we have concerns about our own sea lines of communication, I expect that there may be similar concerns as far as they (China) are concerned. So, to that extent I would say they maybe taking steps. On one hand the deployment that they maybe doing from time to time or any other steps that are there with respect to helping out some of the countries with which they have good bilateral relations," said Admiral Nirmal Verma said during a press conference, ahead of the Navy Day to be celebrated on December 4.


:-o :-o :-o

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 03 Dec 2009 20:02

http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2009/12/n ... plans.html

...The tender for six meduim range maritime reconnaisance aircraft will be released this year and procurement of 16 multi role helicopters to replace the existing anti-submarine warfare Seaking helicopters, and 47 Advanced Light Helicopters to replace the Chetaks is on the horizon.....


47 Dhruvs is a large order and Navy has once again shown its commitment to the Indian industry; despite reservations on the time required to collapse the rotors of Dhruv. Hope that they induct the armed version with chin radar.

medium range recon platform will be a new category of acquisition - unfortunately here again our lack of manufacturing base of a civilian airliner will hit us. Even Indonesia, which manufactures CN-235 is better off.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kanson » 03 Dec 2009 20:06

IMO, given the similar budget of IN and the RN (over the next decade), IN will more likely resemble RN in its force structure by 2020/25 time frame before expanding beyond.

IAC-2 may or may not be in the line of CVF QE. But going by the budget similarities to compare IN and RN may not be appropriate as one is a declining power and another is a rising one. BTW i dont know how good the budget similarities are.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 03 Dec 2009 20:10

and 47 Advanced Light Helicopters to replace the Chetaks is on the horizon.....

great news if true. dhruvs are the best possible replacement for the venerable chetaks.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Baldev » 03 Dec 2009 20:18

sunilUpa wrote:Radar Antenna Installed On Boeing P-8A Poseidon
December 2, 2009 - A Boeing and a Raytheon employee complete installation of an APY-10 radar antenna on P-8A Poseidon test aircraft T2 last month at the Boeing Developmental Center in Seattle.
http://avstop.com/news2/boeing_p-8a_poseidon%20.jpg
they have not installed the radar in fuselage belly so that radar can see in all directions front/right/left/rear of aircraft but with nose mounted radar,it will scan only front/front right/front left sections of aircraft

also the radar antenna looks radically different.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kanson » 03 Dec 2009 20:29

The over 6,000-tonne INS Arihant will be more of `a technology demonstrator', rather than a fully-operational SSBN, for the subsequent follow-on nuclear submarines to follow.
Any first ship of its class is a TD by default. What good comes in stressing that out.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sunny y » 03 Dec 2009 22:20

Aditya G wrote:http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2009/12/navy-outlines-huge-acquisition-plans.html

...The tender for six meduim range maritime reconnaisance aircraft will be released this year and procurement of 16 multi role helicopters to replace the existing anti-submarine warfare Seaking helicopters, and 47 Advanced Light Helicopters to replace the Chetaks is on the horizon.....


47 Dhruvs is a large order and Navy has once again shown its commitment to the Indian industry; despite reservations on the time required to collapse the rotors of Dhruv. Hope that they induct the armed version with chin radar.

medium range recon platform will be a new category of acquisition - unfortunately here again our lack of manufacturing base of a civilian airliner will hit us. Even Indonesia, which manufactures CN-235 is better off.


God bless IN. :D
Well, Are these 47 Dhruvs going to be fitted with indigenous avionics or the same Israeli stuff that HAL has been shamelessly buying over all these years ??

As of now Saras is a good option to replace Dorniers. For medium range who knows may be NAL RTA after 2016 :-?

Thanks

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 03 Dec 2009 23:15

http://nightwatch.afcea.org/NightWatch_20091202.htm

India: For the record. The Indian Navy will add an additional 40 warships, 60 aircraft and 60 helicopters over the next ten years, Press Trust of India reported 2 December, citing a statement from Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Nirmal Verma. The expansion will include destroyers, frigates, fast attack craft and interceptor boats, submarines and fleet tankers, and 34 ships will be built in domestic shipyards, with six built in foreign shipyards. Verma said India is adding the ships and aircraft to protect its maritime interests in the Indian Ocean and counter other naval powers.

This announcement implies a strategic decision to make obvious to all that India is the dominant naval power in the Indian Ocean, with all that such a decision encompasses.



Can some guru put together a chart with line items for each class (6)and milestones for next ten years?

Thanks in advance.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 03 Dec 2009 23:28

Gagan wrote:
Kanson wrote:Expected tonnage of displacement could be ~ 80,000 ton.

And which yard in India will be able to build such a ship?

and about your 80K ton thought against this 50K news info?

Concepts currently being examined by the Directorate of Naval Design for the IAC-2 are for a conventionally powered carrier displacing over 50,000 tons and equipped with steam catapults (rather than the ski-jump on the Gorshkov/Vikramaditya and the IAC) to launch fourth generation aircraft.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby GeorgeWelch » 04 Dec 2009 00:26

SaiK wrote:
Concepts currently being examined by the Directorate of Naval Design for the IAC-2 are for a conventionally powered carrier displacing over 50,000 tons and equipped with steam catapults (rather than the ski-jump on the Gorshkov/Vikramaditya and the IAC) to launch fourth generation aircraft.



If you were working on the concept for a new ship now, not sure why you would target steam and not EMALS.

At the very least EMALS with a steam fallback.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SaiK » 04 Dec 2009 01:07

may be its a ddmite reporter mess up!.. thinking denial of Queen Liz offer, and then the new one as to be quite contrary to that!?

yes, you are right.. we need nuke powered a/c and EMALS...especially if IN is planning SH for IAC-2.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 04 Dec 2009 02:21

sunny y wrote:Well, Are these 47 Dhruvs going to be fitted with indigenous avionics or the same Israeli stuff that HAL has been shamelessly buying over all these years ??


shamelessly ? whats wrong in buying foreign avionics while indigenous ones are being developed ? now that Samtel can build the LCD MFDs for the MKI, maybe they can do it for the Dhruv as well.

As of now Saras is a good option to replace Dorniers. For medium range who knows may be NAL RTA after 2016


the Do-228 is a very reliable platform that doesn't need urgent replacement..even for the future, HAL could easily produce and supply the Do-228 NG, if need be, with a newer engine. They are right now producing almost the entire Do-228 NG for RUAG Aerospace, including fuselage, wings, empennage and turboprops, which RUAG then outfits with modern avionics and sells them. they expect that there is a good enough market for this type.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Anurag » 04 Dec 2009 06:28

Navy Day Today!! 8) :D

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 04 Dec 2009 07:36

Anurag wrote:Navy Day Today!! 8) :D



We should have quiz on Navy things.

First question:
Name the commander of the Osa class boat that fired the Styx into Karachi Harbor in 1971?

And don't google for it or go thru archives in BR!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Santosh » 04 Dec 2009 07:41

God bless who ever he was. Happy N Day.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 04 Dec 2009 08:38

Happy Navy Day to all

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 04 Dec 2009 12:03

ramana wrote:
Anurag wrote:Navy Day Today!! 8) :D



We should have quiz on Navy things.

First question:
Name the commander of the Osa class boat that fired the Styx into Karachi Harbor in 1971?

And don't google for it or go thru archives in BR!



Cdr Yadav ?????

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 04 Dec 2009 17:30

'2 of Coast Guards latest vessels faulty'
New Delhi, Dec 3 (PTI) Two of the latest and largest Advanced Offshore Patrol Vessels (AOPVs) of the Coast Guard, built to operate with helicopters, have been found incapable of doing so because of a faulty equipment on the ship.

The Halo Traction Gear (HTG) on-board the two OPVs -- ICGS Sankalp and Samrat -- does not allow helicopters to land, Coast Guard sources said here.

The HTGs, they added, fitted on the helicopter deck to take the choppers into their hangers were built without proper sanctions and planning and their raised height prevented helicopters from landing on these two ships.

ICGS Sankalp is the latest ship of the Coast Guard's OPVs and even after about 18 months of its commissioning, it has not been able to operate light-weight Chetak choppers from it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 04 Dec 2009 23:29

Kersi D wrote:
ramana wrote:
--------
Anurag
Navy Day Today!! 8) :D
---------


We should have quiz on Navy things.

First question:
Name the commander of the Osa class boat that fired the Styx into Karachi Harbor in 1971?

And don't google for it or go thru archives in BR!



Cdr Yadav ?????


Partially right. Full name please.

Hint: Named after Arjuna's son.


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby khukri » 05 Dec 2009 12:10

[quote="ramana
Partially right. Full name please.

Hint: Named after Arjuna's son.[/quote]

Abhimanyu?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 05 Dec 2009 14:27

Three hearty cheers to all the officers and sailors of the IN ,as its Navy Week!
The future plans for the IN';s expansion are v.intersting and need firuther debate.A senior friend in the IA wisely observed that the IN is the "force for the future" and the key to dominance of the entire IOR.He also said that the IN needs to accelerate its amphibious capability with a larger amphibious strength,to enable us to project power and defend our island territories better.During the Rajiv era we had two successes in Lanka (where after initial setbacks,the IPKF marginalised the LTTE and enabled elections to be held in the N-East) and the squashing of the coup in the Maldives.Our security concerns and responsibilities now reach as far as the African coastline and our security relationships with Mauritius and the Maldives.To the east,the stopping of the PLAN from intruding menacingly into the IOR i of the highest priority and we must leverage realtions with Vietnam,Taiwan,Japan and the ASEAN states in accomplishing that goal.Engaging Burma continously is another top priority so that the Burmese are prevented from going totally down the Chinese path in its regional ambitions.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 05 Dec 2009 17:05

The attack on Karachi commemorated by AUniv and the glorious memory of Capt.MN Mulla, MVC. who sacrificed his life in the tradition of the service.

AU naval wing commemorate attack on Karachi harbour
TNN 5 December 2009,
ALLAHABAD: To commemorate the victorious attack by the Indian Navy on Karachi Port during the 1971 Indo-Pakistan war, the naval wing, NCC, Allahabad

University celebrated Navy Day at the Subhash Crossing in Civil Lines on Friday. The programme was organised under the aegis of NCC Group Headquarters, Allahabad. Allahabad University vice-chancellor Rajen Harshe, IG Surya Kumar Shukla and vice-chancellor of Rajarshi Tandon Open University Nageshwar Rao were the special guests.

An exhibition of ship models was held to portray different aspects of naval life and various models of Indian warships like INS Virat, Vindhyagiri, Ranvijay and INS Sujata, Brahmos missile, Amar Jawan Jyoti, posters and photographs on naval life, besides films on Indian Navy were on display.

Navy Day is an important day for the Indian navy. In early 1971, 8 new missile boats were commissioned into Indian Navy. The additions were kept a closely guarded secret in view of the eminent war with Pakistan. Strategies were being drawn at higher levels on the basis of lessons learnt during the 1965 war with Pak when the capacity of Indian Navy had not been exploited to the optimum level. A plan was drawn up for the missile boats to be towed by bigger ships to a point about 100 miles from Karachi by night fall from where they would `launch' an attack Karachi port and ships stationed en route. War broke out on December 3, 1971.

It was the deciding hour of war, when in order to cut the logistic and military support to East Pakistan, Indian Navy attacked Karachi Port in the mid-night and destroyed three Pakistan warships named as `Ghazi', `Khyber' and `Muhafiz' and severely damaged two other warships `Deka' and `Shahjehan 1'.

Kaemari 1 oil depot in Karachi went into flames which could not be extinguished for next seven days. This glorious moment of the history of Indian Navy is celebrated every year as Navy Day.

Allahabad NCC group headquarters decided to celebrate December 4 as a Victory Day. On this occasion, Subhash Crossing in Civil Lines was illuminated and a colourful display of fireworks was organised.

Lt Commander PK Ghosh of naval wing, NCC, Allahabad University said that though the day is celebrated with dignity on board warships and at Naval bases, Naval NCC Allahabad is the only NCC group in India which does the same. The day was celebrated under the supervision of Group Commander, NCC Headquarters, Allahabad, Col Kaushal Chaturvedi.

Capt Mahendra Nath Mulla, who belonged to Allahabad, sacrificed his life. He was rewarded Mahavir Chakra posthumously. When the enemy submarine Hangor torpedoed the INS Khukri, Capt. Mulla, helped in safe exit of as many personnel as possible and despite having all the opportunities to save his own life, he decided to go down with his ship and presented an example of service and supreme sacrifice. Captain Mulla was a part and important figure in all these operations. On December 5, one enemy ship was detected in Indian water and INS Khukri and INS Kripan were detailed for search and destroy mission under the leadership of INS Khukri Capt MN Mulla.

It was the fateful night of December 9, at 8:45 pm while on mission, Khukri was torpedoed by enemy ship and sank within minutes. But these few minutes were enough for Capt Mulla to establish himself as a pole star in the sky of martyrdom.

Capt Mulla himself pushed them into the sea, directing them to swim away. When one of them offered him the life jacket he said, "Go on save yourself and don't worry about me." In another event, even in such a stressful condition Capt. Mulla's humorous character came forward when the junior-most officer of the ship was looking at Capt Mulla just before sinking the ship and he said, "Bachchu Utro" (Little fellow get down). Capt Mulla was last seen calmly puffing on his cigarette and going down with his ship leaving behind an everlasting footprint on the sand of time.

Coming from a distinguished family of lawyers and judges of Allahabad, law ran in his blood and he was known as `Captain Mulla - The Flying Defence' because any sailor in trouble wanted him to defend him. His heart was full of sympathy for juniors and sailors whom he used to give support.

Lt Cdr Ghosh said that this commemoration is being dedicated to the masses for last five years. Purposefully, the selected place is Subhash Crossing because Subhash Chandra Bose himself was a cadet in his student life.


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 301416.cms

PS:They've arrived, four cheers for the IN and MIG Corp.!

Indian Navy’s first four MiG-29K fighters arrive in knocked down condition
December 5th, 2009 - 6:51 pm ICT by IANS -

New Delhi, Dec 5 (IANS) The first four Russian-made Mig-29K fighters to be deployed on the aircraft carrier INS Vikramaditya, formerly the Admiral Gorshkov, when it is inducted into the Indian Navy have been received in a knocked-down condition and will now be assembled in this country, an official said Saturday.
The jets arrived in the country Dec 4, celebrated as Navy Day.

“The four jets, in a knocked down condition, were delivered yesterday (Friday) by an AN-132 aircraft. It will be a while before the jets are assembled and start flying,” an Indian Navy official said but refused the divulge the present location of the aircraft.

The jets were purchased by the Indian Navy as part of a $1.5 billion deal signed with Russia in January 2004 for the Admiral Gorshkov. Of this $740 million was meant for the aircraft and the balance for the refitting of the carrier The Russians have now upped the price to between $2.2 billion and $2.9 billion and negotiations on this are currently underway.

The navy will eventually be getting 12 MiG-29K single-seater aircraft and four MiG-29KUB twin-seat trainer aircraft, some in flyaway condition. The trainer version is similar to the single-seater but with a slightly reduced operational range.

The navy has named its MiG-29K squadron the “Black Panthers”. As the 45,000 tonne Kiev class aircraft carrier, is scheduled to be delivered by 2012, the jets will undertake shore-based sorties from Goa.

The contract for the jets also stipulates the procurement of hardware for pilot training and aircraft maintenance, including flight simulators and interactive ground and sea-based training systems.

The navy’s MiG-29Ks have arrester gear and stronger landing gear for carrier landings, folding wings and rust-proofing to prevent corrosion from salt water.

The aircraft features a fully digitised glass cockpit, improved engine protection against ingestion of foreign particles like birds, a multi-mode radar and increased range. The contract ensures that the navy gets the entire spectrum of services, including a full mission simulator.

The MiG-29K will provide aerial cover the carrier’s battle group, acquire air superiority and destroy sea-borne and ground-based targets with guided high-precision weapons during the day and at night and in any weather conditions.

The aircraft, the first bought by the navy after the Sea Harriers, will also be capable of playing the role of a midair refueller.

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Juggi G
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 05 Dec 2009 22:20

The Weary State of the Indian Navy
December 4th, 2009

By Arun Kumar Singh
[ Vice-Admiral Arun Kumar Singh retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command ]


Indian Navy As is well known, after 26/11 the Indian Navy (IN) was given the additional responsibility of coastal security. It is a common military principle that the “security of own base” is paramount. It is foolhardy to conduct distant blue water operations only to find that your unguarded base (eg, Mumbai) has been devastated by terrorists, or by a surprise enemy strike. Navy Day, on December 4, 2009, is an appropriate occasion to talk about the “blue water” requirements of the Navy.

Any Navy takes about 15 to 20 years to build a capability based on crystal-ball-gazing for the next half-a-century. Unfortunately, this crystal ball is not always accurate and urgent changes become essential sometimes. The Indian Navy, already saddled with blue water anti-piracy patrolling off the distant Gulf of Aden, needs to factor in the threat of maritime terror, while its limited budget needs to be optimised to also cater for the Chinese Navy’s blue water threat, expected by 2025, along with the needs of nuclear-submarine-based second-strike capability.

Medium Naval Powers like Britain and France maintain a fleet of a Dozen tactical nuclear submarines (SSNs) and four strategic nuclear submarines (SSBNs), but have decided to keep Only One Aircraft Carrier each. The Chinese (when they get their carrier in 2012) will have a similar ratio, while the Russians have a much higher ratio of nuclear submarines to carriers. America, with global expeditionary warfare capabilities, is an exception — it has 62 nuclear submarines and 11 aircraft carriers. I was, therefore, surprised by a foreign media news item which said that “India has recently lodged a firm expression of interest to buy one of the two state-of-the-art 65,000 tonne carriers, which are still being built by in the UK” (due for delivery in 2016, but deemed “unaffordable” by the British since the F-35 fighter jets meant for it would cost $150 million each at 2009 prices).
Large aircraft carriers, though vital for blue water sea control operations, are very expensive to buy ($3-4 billion each, depending on the size), operate and maintain. A carrier needs to operate a minimum mix of 30 to 50 or more expensive aircrafts, (fighters, air early warning aircraft, helicopters). Each carrier, in addition, requires a protective screen of about six expensive destroyers or frigates and a replenishment tanker for refuelling.

Notwithstanding the high costs, it is a fact that the Indian Navy requires two aircraft carriers for blue water operations, which only carriers can perform. These would be the INS Vikramaditya (ex-Gorshkov) due to be commissioned in 2012, and the INS Vikrant (being built at Kochi shipyard), due for delivery after 2016. Each of these could carry a mix of about 30 aircraft and helicopters. Any proposal of buying a Third Aircraft Carrier would come At the Expense Of badly-needed platforms like submarines, frigates, destroyers etc. An aircraft carrier has a life of 50 years. However, given the estimated 20-year-life of the second-hand INS Vikramaditya, and the Fact that it would take us 20 Years to Get Government Sanction, Design and Build it, there is a need to Begin the Process for a Replacement Indigenous Aircraft Carrier Now.

Coming to other blue water operations, the first involves anti-piracy patrols off the Gulf of Aden, which are being carried out since August 2008 by destroyers and frigates costing about Rs 5,000 crores and Rs 3,000 crores each, respectively. A cheaper and more-cost effective option would be to use long-range offshore patrol vessels (OPVs), costing around Rs 300-500 crores each. A dozen such platforms are needed for anti-piracy patrols and also for protection of offshore oil rigs (three OPVs are already being built in Goa, and nine more need to be ordered).

The second aspect of blue water operations involves controlling or denying (during wartime) the “Choke Points” through which all ships must pass before entering or exiting the Indian Ocean region. This task is best performed by conventional submarines, SSNs, frigates/destroyers and Long-Range Maritime Patrol (LRMP) aircraft .

The Comptroller and Auditor General of India report of August 2008 brought out the shortcomings of our ageing conventional submarine force and submarine rescue capabilities. Since the 30-year Indigenous Submarine Building Plan is running a few years Behind Schedule, the Government Needs to Consider Outright Import of Six Conventional Submarines with Air Independent Propulsion system, and Two Submarine Rescue Systems. Three Imported Destroyers, with BMD (ballastic missile defence) Capability and Three Imported Frigates are also needed, since Indian Defence Shipyards are OverBooked, and Force levels are Declining.

If media reports about a Russian-built Akula SSN being inducted into the Navy in 2010 are indeed true, than it’s welcome news, but more would be needed, and ideally ones that are indigenous.

Next, I come to the SSBN Arihant which was launched on July 26, 2009. Here too, for deterrence to work, More indigenous SSBNs would be needed, with Missile Ranges of about 5,000 km. To monitor shipping in specific areas of the Indian Ocean region, there is a need to import long-range (1,500 miles) high frequency “Sky Wave” Coastal Radars. Similar radars are in service in China, Australia and Russia. These are different from the Short-Range (40 miles) Coastal Radars being inducted by the Indian Coast Guard.

Lastly, I come to the issue of modern digital data links and network-centric warfare. Having completed Phase I of the Data Link (i.e. Real Time Situational Awareness), the Indian Navy with its dedicated satellite (launch in 2010), should move to Phase II, i.e. “Real Time Fusion of various Sensors and Shooters”, which would mean that data provided by one sensor platform would be accurate and timely enough for another platform to fire its weapons at the designated target.

To conclude, More Money is Needed. The government must increase the Defence Budget from its present 1.99 per cent to over three per cent of the gross domestic product. The Indian Navy needs to additionally prepare not only for the nuclear era, but also for BMD and maritime terrorism.

* Vice-Admiral Arun Kumar Singh retired as Flag Officer Commanding-in-Chief of the Eastern Naval Command, Visakhapatnam

The Weary State of the Indian Navy

Vice Admiral's Recommended Order List :-
Six Imported Conventional Submarines with Air Independent Propulsion system
Two Submarine Rescue Systems
Three Imported Destroyers, with BMD Capability
Three Imported Frigates
Long-Range (1,500 miles) High Frequency “Sky Wave” Coastal Radars
Dozen Long-Range Offshore Patrol Vessels (OPVs)


US Admiral : China to have first aircraft carrier by 2015

Rahul M
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 05 Dec 2009 22:55

an excellent, excellent article by the Admiral.
Three Imported Destroyers, with BMD (ballastic missile defence) Capability

it doesn't necessarily have to be imported, but the capability is a must.
a design perfectly suited for IN isn't available off the shelf either and whatever is available comes with HUGE strings (nay ropes) attached.

a better option would be to plan for a 10000 tonne ship class of batch size 3 (one for each of the carrier battle groups, two of them in the near future and a battle group built around a large amphib of the jalashwa type) for construction to start sometime around 2013-14 and commissioning within 2020 for the first one.

the ideal weapons fit would be a combination of LR-SAM + naval derivatives of the AAD/PAD system, along with the usual CIWS, torpedoes, some SSMs and a couple of ASW helos.


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