Indian Naval Discussion

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 12 Dec 2009 02:30

manjgu wrote:with depleting nos of sea harrier whats the future of viraat?

sorry if this sounds like a noob but can we deploy the 29Ks that we received on the Viraat till the Vikramaditya comes up?

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 12 Dec 2009 02:46

tsriram wrote: sorry if this sounds like a noob but can we deploy the 29Ks that we received on the Viraat till the Vikramaditya comes up?

No we can't. Viraat is a small carrier and can only operate STOVL a/c like Harrier. MiG-29K is designed to operate from STOBAR carrier.

raghava · Post by **raghava** » 12 Dec 2009 04:10

KrishG wrote:
tsriram wrote: sorry if this sounds like a noob but can we deploy the 29Ks that we received on the Viraat till the Vikramaditya comes up?
No we can't. Viraat is a small carrier and can only operate STOVL a/c like Harrier. MiG-29K is designed to operate from STOBAR carrier.

A noob question again gurus -

Can the Viraat be easily/cost effectively converted into a Helicopter Carrier for an ASW role?

thanks in advance

R

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 12 Dec 2009 07:37

raghava wrote:Can the Viraat be easily/cost effectively converted into a Helicopter Carrier for an ASW role?

In my opinion, its not about being able to convert the Viraat into a heli carrier anymore for it has aged too much. For a aircraft carrier launched in 1953, its operational life been stretched as thin as a warship can be.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Dec 2009 08:32

INS Shivalik on Google Earth.

She hasn't been inducted yet and so can't enter naval dockyards yet. Instead she has to spend time in the ganda manda civilian dockyard.

Also the Delhi class destroyers are no longer on that pier I was cribbing about. This was an old photo on GE. The Delhi class and the Talwars along with the Viraat are somewhere else.

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 12 Dec 2009 09:41

>>>I have been under the impression that for steam ship shipboard boilers only heavy fuels e.g. Bunker C and FO are used.

The basic reason for conversion to Diesel fuel is less smoke - With FFO, the soot had to be blown in every watch - ie., every 4 hrs, and this leaves out a heavy billet of smoke. This smoke would hang in air for a long time, giving out tell tale signature of the presence of fleet.

With Diesel firing, the soot blowing is done once in 24 hrs, with far less smoke blown out.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 12 Dec 2009 09:54

Gagan wrote:

Also the Delhi class destroyers are no longer on that pier I was cribbing about. This was an old photo on GE. The Delhi class and the Talwars along with the Viraat are somewhere else.

Why is she still not Inducted?

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 12 Dec 2009 17:29

Can't find P-15A on BR, what's wrong?
The latest Google Earth shows all three P-15A on the slips. It's ok with the 2nd and 3rd hull, but Kolkata was allegedly launched in 2006. The Google picture is no earlier than 2008 because all three P17s are in the water. Is the launch date confirmed? Russia delivered first set of shafts in in December 2008. Do you launch ship without shafts and propellers and then put it in the dock to wait for the shafts?

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Dec 2009 20:00

Kesri D,
Here are the pics of the helipads on the Giri class. Although I don't seem to be able to find it, one of the giri class has a helipad that is cut out semicircularly on the port side at the very end.

INS Udaygiri F35

INS Vindhyagiri F42

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 12 Dec 2009 22:04

Gagan wrote:Kesri D,
Here are the pics of the helipads on the Giri class. Although I don't seem to be able to find it, one of the giri class has a helipad that is cut out semicircularly on the port side at the very end.

INS Udaygiri F35

INS Vindhyagiri F42

Hi Gagan,

I believe what you have mentioned here is INS Krishna (F 46), (ex HMS Andromeda (F57)) a modified Leander Class currently used as Indian Navy Training Ship.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/INS_Krishna

I also had this doubt as INS Krishna is not listed in Nilgiri Class Ships. Even in BR Site, INS Krishna is given as a seperate ship, but the page has no details.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NAVY/Ships/Active.html

You can also notice that - what was the landing deck of INS Udaygiri is the same place where the new hanger of INS Vindhyagiri is located....and what was an opening in aft end of the Udaygiri, has been modified to act as the new landing deck of INS Vindhyagiri.Look carefully and you can spot the old hanger in the INS Vindhyagiri placed right behind the new one. The difference can be spotted by measuring the relative distance from the Radar mast of the two ships to the aft end.

This was mentioned by KERSI D some posts ago - "The fifth ship INS Taragiri and the sixth ship INS Vindhyagiri did not have the ASW Limbos. The space was used for larger heli deck and hangar, suitable for a Seaking."

Regards.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 12 Dec 2009 22:35

Now I see it.
The entire hanger on the Vindhyagiri is a seperate structure, and so the helipad extends all the way back.

Are there any internal structural changes in the various leanders of the Indian Navy?

PS: On the Udaygiri as on the Rajputs and the Delhi class, what is the ramp with a sea lock door at the aft used for? Is it to launch zodiac boats? Is it for a towed array sonar or for depth charges?

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 12 Dec 2009 22:45

I had edited my last post without knowing that you have answered. Details regarding what you have asked are beyond my knowledge. I leave this to the experts.

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 13 Dec 2009 03:35

Cain Marko wrote: Anoop,

We need to see who has expressed what concerns, we have to also see what the final user has to say about such concerns. IIRC, the current or former CNS expressed great pleasure at how the 29K was coming along - there was an interview posted @ Keypubs by Austin i think.

Concerns based on a couple of token flights off the Kuznetsov are of little value. IIRC, the K, in one avatar or another, has been tested off the Kuz, on and off, ever since the 80s.

CM.

Personal Correction,

It is my understanding that the Mig 29K had done sorties onboard Admiral Kuznetsov with External fuel tanks and weapons, after i had posted about it in this forum.

Regards.

sohamn · Post by **sohamn** » 13 Dec 2009 04:12

Rahul M wrote:may I know which submarine ?

Its a foxtrot class submarine. I got the photos of interior of the sub, including Torpedo room, crew quarters, engine room, control room etc. I went with a sailor who was in a US sub during Cuban missile crisis. Interesting facts. Let me know if you guys are interested.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 13 Dec 2009 07:46

sohamn wrote: Its a foxtrot class submarine. I got the photos of interior of the sub, including Torpedo room, crew quarters, engine room, control room etc. I went with a sailor who was in a US sub during Cuban missile crisis. Interesting facts. Let me know if you guys are interested.

Atleast mail me..my email id is put on my profile....!

srai · Post by **srai** » 13 Dec 2009 09:02

Gagan wrote:INS Shivalik on Google Earth.
...

She hasn't been inducted yet and so can't enter naval dockyards yet. Instead she has to spend time in the ganda manda civilian dockyard.

Also the Delhi class destroyers are no longer on that pier I was cribbing about. This was an old photo on GE. The Delhi class and the Talwars along with the Viraat are somewhere else.

Since the completion and expansion of the facilities at the new naval base, INS Kadamba at Karwar, I would assume that all the major ships of the Western Naval Command would primarily be berthed there (and not anymore at Mumbai). Only when major ships need to undergo refits/inspections etc, then they would need to visit MDL in Mumbai. Or if you see some major ships at the docks in Mumbai, they would only be there on a short term basis.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 Dec 2009 12:07

INS Kadamaba is not fully operational yet to accomodate major assets of the wetsren fleet.There is no airbase there as yet and strangely,equally importantly,where is the infrastructure for the families of the IN personnel in the form of schools,etc.,which are the biggest problem for service personnel who get transferred at regular intervals.There is little in the way of civilian support at the moment,as famililies have to live there.This aspect has lagged behind and a lot more funding is required to make the base fulfill its planned role.

sum · Post by **sum** » 13 Dec 2009 13:15

Channels reporting DHANUSH test fired today off the bay of Bengal..

manojmr · Post by **manojmr** » 13 Dec 2009 15:15

Hi Gurus,

This is my first post i am a long time fan of BR.

I came across this article and hopefully no one has posted it till now.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city ... 331721.cms

abhishek_sharma · Post by **abhishek_sharma** » 13 Dec 2009 17:29

Navy to build four amphibious warships

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/cities/De ... e64571.ece

arun · Post by **arun** » 13 Dec 2009 18:47

arun wrote:Is this the Vijit :

New Coast Guard ship in trouble off Tarapore coast

By: J Dey

Date: 2009-12-07

Place: Mumbai

The Coast Guard was working hard to save its brand new Coast Guard Offshore Patrol Vessel (OPV) from capsizing off the Tarapore coast when this edition when to print. …………………..

State-of-the-art Coast Guard ships Samrat and Sankalp and an Indian naval destroyer have been dispatched to keep the ship from sinking. ……………..

The unnamed OPV got its hull fitted at a shipyard at Baruch in Gujarat, and was heading for Goa Shipyard Limited at Vasco da Gama in south Goa, when it began sinking last evening.

Coast Guard Inspector General SPS Basra confirmed to this newspaper that the unnamed OPV was being rescued. "It has to undergo a refit before it can join the fleet," Basra said.

Mid Day

Answering my own question

.

Seems the vessel is most likely the Vaibhav which was launched on December 5th 2009 by the Shoft Shipyard at Baroch (Clicky).

Anyway with no further news, it looks like the rescue mission was a success.

arun · Post by **arun** » 13 Dec 2009 19:23

Rakesh / Maz,

Lots of updating for you guys covering vessel launches by the Navy and Coast Gurad.

See my post here.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 13 Dec 2009 23:00

Gagan - Variable Depth Sonar. Incidentally Udaygiri was decomissioned & sunk in exercises earlier this year (or was it early 2008)?

Zodiac is a US RIB not used in India. We use Gemini / Ordnance Factory / Halmatic.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 14 Dec 2009 21:39

India will get Gorshkov in good shape

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 14 Dec 2009 21:59

from the above link...

According to Ambassador Kadakin, Russia will also supply a new batch of Sukhois.

Any further details on numbers ?...I am presuming that Sukhoi means Sukhoi -30 MKI....!!

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 15 Dec 2009 10:24

India : Global Hub for Warship-Building

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 15 Dec 2009 12:46

A commentary on British Aircraft Carrier for IN: Sixty-five thousand tonnes of ambition

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 15 Dec 2009 13:26

Is that Business Standard article, the first mention of IAC-2 being 60,000 tons?

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 15 Dec 2009 19:37

A question for tsarkar sahab,

What % of the total cost of a warship is contributed by the electronics, Radar, weapon system etc (i.e other than Hull, Propulsion system etc). Is it high 40% to 50% atleast?

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 15 Dec 2009 19:57

the new price is again a contention.. with a guess of $2.5b. hope we don't get some gold plated wrought iron.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 15 Dec 2009 20:03

sunilUpa wrote:A question for tsarkar sahab,

What % of the total cost of a warship is contributed by the electronics, Radar, weapon system etc (i.e other than Hull, Propulsion system etc). Is it high 40% to 50% atleast?

I understand that in a combat aircraft the "electronics" today account for 60% of the cost. It was 40% say 20 years ago.

"Electronics in a naval vessel is more elaborate than on an aircraft. A naval vessel of say 5000+ MT may have 15 or even more radars. Add a few sonars, various ship-to- ship, shore, helicopter, aircraft, UAV etc. comm eqpt, satcom equipment. Add ESM, ECM, ECCM and God knows what.

The aircraft body is made of aluminum and now some composites. The ship hull and internals are made of steel which is cheaper than aluminum or composites.

I am not considering disposable like food weapons etc.

Hence me THINKS that the the % cost of electronics in a ship may be higher that the % cost of electronics in a aircraft.

Would love to hear other's opinion of this interesting topic

K

kidoman · Post by **kidoman** » 15 Dec 2009 20:21

New Israeli unmanned wonder boat..India Interested in Acquiring them

The first unmanned stealth craft on the seas, designated Protector SV or Death Shark, recently deployed in the Persian Gulf, is in high demand after its successful performance with the Singapore Navy. DEBKAfile's military sources report that India and South Korea asked Israel's Rafael to build craft to their specifications when chief of staff, Lt. Gen. Gaby Ashkenazi visited their capitals earlier this month.

Western military naval experts rate the Protector as one of the most effective military and intelligence craft afloat today, whose features can take over many of the capabilities of big high-cost warships with large crews.

They say the wonder boat can easily cruise off the shores of Lebanon, Syria and Iran undetected for long periods due to its tested stealth design.
Operated by remote control from a shore base, the crewless nine-meter long speedboat is armed with a Close-in Weapon System (CIWS) for detecting and destroying incoming anti-ship missiles and enemy aircraft at short range. This system is a Typhoon-type heavy MK-49 Mod 0 machine gun capable of laser accuracy up to a range of 50 kilometers, which sticks to its target, whether on land, air or sea, even as the rigid-hull inflatable bounces on the waves at 40 knots.

The Death Shark's four cameras, functioning at the same distance and high definition as satellite cameras, can capture a license plate number from a distance of 26 kilometers. The stealth craft is also equipped with a sonar or radar system and electro-optics which transmit a three-dimensional image to its shore base, instruments for jamming enemy electronics and weapons for taking on large warships, such as torpedoes and explosive charges.

India and South Korea are attracted by these unique features which make the Protector ideal for deployment on oceans, narrow waterways, rivers and ports. Among its other features, the craft is equipped for active interception of terrorist incursions by sea, like the one that held Mumbai to siege in Nov. 2008.

A rafael presentation on the Protector SV.

Can we trust Debka on this??

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 15 Dec 2009 20:29

No need for sahab, Sunil.
That’s a very difficult question you have asked, because exact datapoints for such an assessment are quite hard to get by, unless one is FA/CAO. I will need to research this.
An immediate guess would be -
1. Sensors (+electronics) ~ 35%
2. Weapons ~ 20%
3. Engines (+gearing, shaft, stabilizers, DG sets, etc) ~ 25%
4. Hull + fittings ~ 20%
Weapons percentage would increase if it included helicopters. With every new ship, the proportion of complex weapons and sensors increases.
Incase you’re interested in reading more, I would refer you to http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/SRR/Volume13/index.html
Towards Modern Ship Design and Shipbuilding in India. Vice Adm. (r) Rajeshwar Nath
This is the most authoritative article on Indian warship building that I have come across.

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 15 Dec 2009 22:31

Can we trust Debka on this??

A picture is worth thousand words......

http://www.israelnewsagency.com/navyter ... 81020.html

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 15 Dec 2009 22:41

sum wrote:Channels reporting DHANUSH test fired today off the bay of Bengal..

Bang with 10 meters CEP accuracy....

Defence sources said, the missile travelled almost 350 km within nearly 500 seconds before zeroing in on the target with a circular error probability (CEP) of less than 10 metres.

“It met the velocity, height and guidance parameters. The flight path was very smooth without any variation and deviation'', said ITR director SP Dash.

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/default.aspx

johnny_m · Post by **johnny_m** » 16 Dec 2009 08:03

India cancels maritime patrol request for proposals
By Siva Govindasamy

India has cancelled a request for proposals for six medium-range maritime patrol aircraft that it planned to operate in tandem with eight Boeing P-8Is it bought earlier in 2009.

"The defence ministry and the navy had asked for the proposals, but they withdrew the tender a few months ago," says an industry source close to the ministry. "There is no indication of when a fresh tender will be issued, although it appears as though this procurement has gone down in the navy's list of priorities."

New Delhi had been assessing medium-range aircraft to replace the Indian navy's 12 Britten-Norman Islanders, which the service hopes to begin retiring from around 2013. It had planned to either transfer the Islanders to the Indian coastguard, or convert them for use as trainers. Myanmar, which sourced two Islanders from India for its coastguard several years ago, could also be a recipient, say industry sources.

Jets and turboprops had been assessed for the requirement. Sources say that Brazil's Embraer, which already has a maritime patrol version of its EMB-145 and is helping to modify the same type for an indigenous Indian air force airborne early warning and control requirement, was a possible contender.

Boeing had offered a modified version of the P-8I, while Israel's Elta Systems has been pushing a maritime patrol variant of the Dassault Falcon 900 business jet. Northrop Grumman was also hoping to compete with its E-2D, while other turboprop alternatives were maritime patrol variants of the ATR 72 and the EADS Casa C-295.

India is the first export customer for Boeing's P-8, having selected the type to replace its navy Tupolev Tu-142 turboprops. The service, which has often been neglected in favour of the air force and army, has received a boost in recent years as the country's politicians seek to establish their maritime capabilities.

Observers say the nation needs to augment its maritime patrol capabilities due to growing tensions with neighbours such as Pakistan and Sri Lanka, the growing influence of China in the Indian Ocean, and the rise of piracy in the Arabian Sea.

Earlier in December, India issued a request for information for new naval fighters that will be capable of operating on two indigenous aircraft carriers projected to be in service by the end of the next decade. Boeing, Dassault and Lockheed Martin received the RFI, according to industry sources. This did not indicate the number of aircraft required, and asked only for information on available technologies and capabilities with their respective F/A-18E/F Super Hornet, Rafale and F-35 Joint Strike Fighter designs.

This is in addition to the induction of RSK MiG-29K carrier-borne fighters and naval variants of the indigenous Tejas light combat aircraft, six of which were ordered earlier this year, over the next decade. It also keen to buy new anti-submarine warfare helicopters and wants to induct a range of unmanned air vehicles.

http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... osals.html

Are we running out of cash? The IAF MRTT bid goes now this.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 16 Dec 2009 08:11

johnny_m wrote:India cancels maritime patrol request for proposals
By Siva Govindasamy

India has cancelled a request for proposals for six medium-range maritime patrol aircraft that it planned to operate in tandem with eight Boeing P-8Is it bought earlier in 2009.

"The defence ministry and the navy had asked for the proposals, but they withdrew the tender a few months ago," says an industry source close to the ministry. "There is no indication of when a fresh tender will be issued, although it appears as though this procurement has gone down in the navy's list of priorities."

New Delhi had been assessing medium-range aircraft to replace the Indian navy's 12 Britten-Norman Islanders, which the service hopes to begin retiring from around 2013. It had planned to either transfer the Islanders to the Indian coastguard, or convert them for use as trainers. Myanmar, which sourced two Islanders from India for its coastguard several years ago, could also be a recipient, say industry sources.

Jets and turboprops had been assessed for the requirement. Sources say that Brazil's Embraer, which already has a maritime patrol version of its EMB-145 and is helping to modify the same type for an indigenous Indian air force airborne early warning and control requirement, was a possible contender.

Boeing had offered a modified version of the P-8I, while Israel's Elta Systems has been pushing a maritime patrol variant of the Dassault Falcon 900 business jet. Northrop Grumman was also hoping to compete with its E-2D, while other turboprop alternatives were maritime patrol variants of the ATR 72 and the EADS Casa C-295.

India is the first export customer for Boeing's P-8, having selected the type to replace its navy Tupolev Tu-142 turboprops. The service, which has often been neglected in favour of the air force and army, has received a boost in recent years as the country's politicians seek to establish their maritime capabilities.

Observers say the nation needs to augment its maritime patrol capabilities due to growing tensions with neighbours such as Pakistan and Sri Lanka, the growing influence of China in the Indian Ocean, and the rise of piracy in the Arabian Sea.

Earlier in December, India issued a request for information for new naval fighters that will be capable of operating on two indigenous aircraft carriers projected to be in service by the end of the next decade. Boeing, Dassault and Lockheed Martin received the RFI, according to industry sources.
http://www.flightglobal.com/articles/20 ... osals.html

Are we running out of cash? The IAF MRTT bid goes now this.

Could be, or perhaps the recent signing off on the MRTA with Rodina has summat to do with this? Who knows?

CM.

Avik · Post by **Avik** » 16 Dec 2009 12:02

Could it be that the UK has offered the soon to be decommissioned Nimrod MK-2 to India? Todays London Times has an article about the UK MoD trying to cut costs by taking these aircrafts out of service before their planned retirement.
The UK minister for defence procurement was here a week back and its possible that this came up for discussion.
JMT on transposing three distinct news items: Indian cancelling its MR tender; UK MoD announcing the decommissioning of the Nimrod Mk-2; UK's Defence Procurement Minister being in India a week back.
The pros in this deal would be that India gets a capable MR aircraft at relatively lower prices and will be able to include them in its fleet as early as 2011.
The cons would be that these are older aircrafts and will also lead to creation of a new maintenance line for a new type.
But, on balance, if India manges to get these aircrafts at considerable depreciated prices with an upgrade for the core surveillance equipment, it would seem like a good deal to go for.
Link on the UK MoD's plan to dcommission these aircrafts:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/p ... 957920.ece

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 16 Dec 2009 12:29

What makes you people think india would buy anything that is decommissioned around the world?

asbchakri · Post by **asbchakri** » 16 Dec 2009 14:01

krishnan wrote:What makes you people think india would buy anything that is decommissioned around the world?

INS JALASHW for starters