Indian Naval Discussion

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Mayuresh
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Mayuresh » 28 Dec 2009 15:55

Team,

It's almost the end of the year and still no sight of the commissioning of INS Shivalik. Hope they have stealthily commissioned it already, without any fanfare. Anyone has any updates on its status?

And there TSP is inducting all their frigates on time with China's blessings and possibly Chinese/American money!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Amit J » 28 Dec 2009 16:16

Is there a technical feasibility for the Mig-35 to have a naval variant ?

I know that the Mig-35 and Mig-29 K have relatively same airframe based on the Mig-29 and that the Mig-29 K is relatively new, its just that i want to know if it is technicaly feasible for a Naval variant of the Mig-35 to be made

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Amit J » 28 Dec 2009 16:24

Dmurphy wrote:Per this report India could lease 'several' nuke attack submarines! 2 for sure.
"Yes, there is a real possibility of leasing for ten years several of our nuclear powered multi-role submarines of Project 971 of 'Shchuka-B'class," the Director of Federal Service for Military-Technical Cooperation (FSVTS) Mikhail Dmitriyev was quoted as saying by ITAR-TASS.


Yes the original contract stipulated that TWO Akula class nuclear submarines would be leased to India for a period of ten years and that post the lease period India could acquire the same subs. I have raised this question DefenceTalk however no one was able to help me. Which sub would be the second Akula class apart from the Nerpa that could be leased to India.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gaur » 28 Dec 2009 17:20

Amit J wrote:Is there a technical feasibility for the Mig-35 to have a naval variant ?

I know that the Mig-35 and Mig-29 K have relatively same airframe based on the Mig-29 and that the Mig-29 K is relatively new, its just that i want to know if it is technicaly feasible for a Naval variant of the Mig-35 to be made

I doubt anyone can answer that with full confidence. Both Mig-29k and Mig-35 look very similar but have significant differences. You say that Mig-29k is relatively new. Thats not true. Design wise and features wise Mig-35 is superior. For eg;
Mig-35 has significantly more composites(nearly 35%).
Mig-35 has 1000hrs more airframe life.
It has two additional hard points.
Unstraightened chassis
TVN
Apart from these there are many more features unique to Mig-35(better avionics, bigger displays, much advanced OLS, MAWS, ZHUK-AE).
So while naval variant of Mig-35 should not be a problem, no one without technical data and knowledge can say for sure because Mig-35 is a different bird from Mig-29k. However, having said that, why would one worry about that too much? Mig-29k is an excellent machine in itself. And the superior avionics, OLS and radar of Mig-35 can be incorporated in Mig-29k in future upgrades.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby K_Rohit » 28 Dec 2009 18:02

Cain Marko wrote:Looks like the derby, too small a pic to get a good ID on the smaller missile though. Must be the Magic. Interesting to see multiple ejector racks. Good catch Rohit.

CM.


Hummph!! :(( :(( Livefist is crediting Vishnu and himself for spotting the missile. :((

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 28 Dec 2009 19:26

Well we can expect the new Nerpa/Chakra to under go three months of rigorous training and testing in the Pacific and Indian ocean , most likely by a join IN/RuN crew

Since the Nerpa is the latest beast in the Akula 2 class with complete digital CIC/Weapons/Machinery , I would let the joint crew assign the following task for the first quarter of 2010.

1 )Follow a US/NATO SSBN on combat patrol , ideally a UK SSBN as they are the best in the business
2 ) Trail a USN CBG on exercise and try to simulate few Torpedo shots at the Carrier
3 ) Detect a Borei now under trial and simulate a kill , with the Borei crew being informed in advance of some unknown SSN on its trial and try best to avoid getting detected.

Ofcourse all the above with the Nerpa not getting detected at all !

If they succeed in all three good work by the crew and they deserve all the medal and appreciation.

If they fail the Russian submarine crew goes to Siberia to work in some mines or oil well with no extra allowance there

The Indian crew gets retrained and get a plum posting like flying the MKI in IAF and the officers join AHQ or ASTE :twisted:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sumshyam » 28 Dec 2009 19:42

Austin wrote:I would let the joint crew assign the following task for the first quarter of 2010.

1 )Follow a US/NATO SSBN on combat patrol , ideally a UK SSBN as they are the best in the business
2 ) Trail a USN CBG on exercise and try to simulate few Torpedo shots at the Carrier
3 ) Detect a Borei now under trial and simulate a kill , with the Borei crew being informed in advance of some unknown SSN on its trial and try best to avoid getting detected.

Ofcourse all the above with the Nerpa not getting detected at all !

If they succeed in all three good work by the crew and they deserve all the medal and appreciation.

If they fail the Russian submarine crew goes to Siberia to work in some mines or oil well with no extra allowance there

The Indian crew gets retrained and get a plum posting like flying the MKI in IAF and the officers join AHQ or ASTE :twisted:


This is just a wow... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: ...!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 28 Dec 2009 20:23

Gaur wrote:Mig-35 has significantly more composites(nearly 35)


Could you post a source for this? AFAIK, the K has > 15% composite structures and the 35 will have more, but the exact figure remains to be seen. As of now the K is a more advanced airframe than the currently flying MiG-35, which is basically an old M. In fact, as per Pibu's latest article that was discussed here earlier, the latest version of the Zhuk AE with the 1000 TRMs is being tested on a K. My guess is that the 35 will be no different from a K in terms of airframe albeit without the gear required for carrier ops.

The two advantages you mention are a result of this imho. It will also enable the 35 to carry a good deal extra payload ~ 1 ton.
Mig-35 has 1000hrs more airframe life.
It has two additional hard points.

Unstraightened chassis

Could you elaborate a bit?

TVN

Optional for both K and 35

Apart from these there are many more features unique to Mig-35(better avionics, bigger displays, much advanced OLS, MAWS, ZHUK-AE).

AFAIK, OLS is the same, ditto with the Baaz upgrade. The downward looking OLS-K will probly be replaced by the Litening.

So while naval variant of Mig-35 should not be a problem, no one without technical data and knowledge can say for sure because Mig-35 is a different bird from Mig-29k.

The naval variant of the 35 already exists in the K. It is perhaps more appropriate to say that that the 35 is the land version of the K :wink: esp. since the definitive 35 as yet does not exist. The commonality between the M, K and 35 is v.high (more than 90% in airframe) other than in specific avionics and smaller details.

CM

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 28 Dec 2009 21:35

Cain Marko wrote:The naval variant of the 35 already exists in the K. It is perhaps more appropriate to say that that the 35 is the land version of the K :wink: esp. since the definitive 35 as yet does not exist. The commonality between the M, K and 35 is v.high (more than 90% in airframe) other than in specific avionics and smaller details.


Mig-35 does not have the levcons as well the strengthened landing gear correct me if i am wrong.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Anoop. A. » 28 Dec 2009 22:37

There was an article saying IN Mig 29K are more capable than its counterparts in IAF... it may be possible to copy the present k landing gear on to the 35 since they are from one family. Although some modifications interms of structural reinforcements and slow approach speeds needs to be made for carrier compatability.

I wonder if Mig 29 K can take off in CATOBAR configuration, if all necessary modifications are made to it :?:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gaur » 28 Dec 2009 22:43

CM,
These advancements of Mig-35 were given by Igorr as reply to some poster on BR itself. So it should be credible.
In fact I forgot to add two more difference. Igorr had also said that Mig-35 has broader weapon spectrum as compared to Mig-29k (specifically +3M-14, 3M-54, KAB-1500). Also its max load is 6500kgs as compared to 5500kg of Mig-29k.
Also what do you mean about the OLS being same on both? OLS-UEM is common to both but I have not read anywhere that Mig-29K has OLS-K. You say it would prob be replaced by Litening. Do you mean that it is present and would be replaced or that its vacancy would be filled? If so, then we should have heard something by now. Yet there is no news of Litening pod on Mig-29k.

Also, you say thrust vectoring is optional for both a/cs. AFAIK, TV was never offered with Mig-29k. True, it could be offered in future, but as of now it is a feature unique to Mig-35.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 28 Dec 2009 22:48

Anoop. A. wrote:There was an article saying IN Mig 29K are more capable than its counterparts in IAF... it may be possible to copy the present k landing gear on to the 35 since they are from one family. Although some modifications interms of structural reinforcements and slow approach speeds needs to be made for carrier compatability.

I wonder if Mig 29 K can take off in CATOBAR configuration, if all necessary modifications are made to it :?:

Yes 29k is more capable than vanilla Mig-29 due to its superior avionics and payload capability. Although its performance is slightly degraded due to its heavier weight. If it can take and land from ski jump no reason why it can't be used in CATOBAR config without modifications.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Mayuresh » 28 Dec 2009 23:01

Team,

An extremely newbie question (Posted it on newbie corner too, but could not get a satisfactory answer):
What is the use of the main gun on a warship, say the Delhi Class destroyers? They have the 100mm AK-100 gun, Talwar Class frigates have a 100mm main gun, the Rajput class destroyers have a 76mm main gun, etc.

Wikipedia says (for Talwar class): One 100mm A-190(E) gun is fitted forward for use against ship and shore based targets. The gun can fire 60 rounds a minute out to a range of 8.2 nautical miles (15.2 km). The weight of each shell is 16 kilograms (35 lb).

I am wondering which enemy ship could come so close (< 15km) to the frigate without being detected by its radar and being engaged by anti-ship missiles. Also, when would the Talwar class frigates go so close to enemy shores so as to engage shore-based targets small enough to be destroyed with a 100mm gun

AFAIK, warships usually have
1. Anti-ship missiles for other ships
2. SAMs for the aircraft threats
3. Torpedos+ASW equipment including a helo for submarine threats

Can the main gun:
1. Destroy incoming anti-ship missiles? (I think it would be too difficult to do that)
2. Destroy incoming torpedos? (almost impossible, considering that the torpedos would be under water)

The only explanation I can see is that the gun may be used against pirate boats/ special forces boats which may come close to the ship and sabotage it (just too difficult in the high seas, but a possibility nevertheless)

Curiously, the Kolkata class destroyers do not feature any main guns (no information on wikipedia atleast)

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sumshyam » 28 Dec 2009 23:24

was just reading sth about Nerpa on wiki...and found an interesting line....!

India is reportedly paying two billion dollars for the completion of two Akula-II class submarines which were 40-60% completed. India has finalized a deal with Russia, in which at the end of the lease of these submarines, it has an option to buy them.


so...I would like to have some light of enlightenment from gurus.....for whether it is just a fume or there is some fire....!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 29 Dec 2009 00:03

Mayuresh wrote:........
Curiously, the Kolkata class destroyers do not feature any main guns (no information on wikipedia atleast)

Image

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 29 Dec 2009 00:12

John wrote:
Cain Marko wrote:The naval variant of the 35 already exists in the K. It is perhaps more appropriate to say that that the 35 is the land version of the K :wink: esp. since the definitive 35 as yet does not exist. The commonality between the M, K and 35 is v.high (more than 90% in airframe) other than in specific avionics and smaller details.


Mig-35 does not have the levcons as well the strengthened landing gear correct me if i am wrong.


the MiG-29K doesn't have any LEVCONs either. its a design feature on the N-LCA.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 29 Dec 2009 00:22

Fwiw Fulcrum airframe always had a good low speed handling characteristics thanks to its wide body and huge LERX ; the Mig-29K has iirc Krueger Flaps on the LERXs for achieving slower approach speeds while landing on carriers.

here (the ones in light blue) : http://www.airliners.net/photo/1248491/L/

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Anoop. A. » 29 Dec 2009 02:16

John wrote:
Anoop. A. wrote:There was an article saying IN Mig 29K are more capable than its counterparts in IAF... it may be possible to copy the present k landing gear on to the 35 since they are from one family. Although some modifications interms of structural reinforcements and slow approach speeds needs to be made for carrier compatability.

I wonder if Mig 29 K can take off in CATOBAR configuration, if all necessary modifications are made to it :?:

Yes 29k is more capable than vanilla Mig-29 due to its superior avionics and payload capability. Although its performance is slightly degraded due to its heavier weight. If it can take and land from ski jump no reason why it can't be used in CATOBAR config without modifications.


Modifications whether simple or complex will be absolutely necessary to convert Mig 29 K from STOBAR to CATOBAR system. The most visible change would be the shuttle attached in front of the nose wheel gear and a hold-back bar necessary for CATOBAR operation.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Ankit Desai » 29 Dec 2009 04:05

Deck not ready yet, navy scouts for aircraft

India’s biggest military hardware supplier, Russia, which was asked for information on the Sukhoi-33, has opted out of the race saying it is phasing out the plane,
a navy source told The Telegraph.

Ankit

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 29 Dec 2009 04:55

this pic of the MiG-29KUB shows that its just going for a touch-and-go landing..the aircraft just touched down between the 2 arrestor wires, but the arresting hook isn't lowered, so it definitely didn't catch.

here however, the arresting hook is lowered while he's just touched down.

and this pic is the best- the Su-33 and the MiG-29KUBs- the in-service bird about to be replaced by the new raptor on the block in Russian service somewhere down the line..many believe that this should've been the original carrier fighter for the Russian Navy, not the Su-33 which was considered too large for carrying a worthwhile complement on the Admiral Kuz and simply nowhere near as multi-role as the MiG-29K was intended to be from the very start. and now that the Russians have stated that the Su-33 is going to exit service, it leaves the MiG-29K firmly in the driver's seat, with all attention being paid to it.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vinito » 29 Dec 2009 05:53

Kartik wrote:this pic of the MiG-29KUB shows that its just going for a touch-and-go landing..the aircraft just touched down between the 2 arrestor wires, but the arresting hook isn't lowered, so it definitely didn't catch.

here however, the arresting hook is lowered while he's just touched down.

and this pic is the best- the Su-33 and the MiG-29KUBs- the in-service bird about to be replaced by the new raptor on the block in Russian service somewhere down the line..many believe that this should've been the original carrier fighter for the Russian Navy, not the Su-33 which was considered too large for carrying a worthwhile complement on the Admiral Kuz and simply nowhere near as multi-role as the MiG-29K was intended to be from the very start. and now that the Russians have stated that the Su-33 is going to exit service, it leaves the MiG-29K firmly in the driver's seat, with all attention being paid to it.


Aa per my knowledge the Su-33 was selected given the reputations of the Sukhoi Flanker series of aircraft which gave it an upper hand against the Mig-29K series during the USSR regime. Apart from this the higher TOW, range & weapons carrying capacity & variety was much favoured by the Navy rather than the limited capacity offered by the Fulcrum. Both aircrafts are multi-role but the Fulcrum was designed from the start as a air defence fighter with the multi role capability being inculcated later on whereas the Flanker epitomised the multi role arena from day one.

The only reason the Russians are looking at the Fulcrum rather than the naval flanker is due to the Su-33 series of aircraft being no longer produced making it expensive to start production again and with the Indians keeping the Mig-29K assembly line alive it only makes sense to opt for the Fulcrum in terms of cost effectiveness. With Russian defence spending being a fraction of the mighty USSR they want to save every penny. But, even the new Mig 29K cannot match the awesome prowess of the Flanker and the Russians opting for the Mig over the Sukhoi is nothing short of a compromise.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Dec 2009 07:48

Kartik wrote:
John wrote:Mig-35 does not have the levcons as well the strengthened landing gear correct me if i am wrong.


the MiG-29K doesn't have any LEVCONs either. its a design feature on the N-LCA.


Correct. AFAIK (based on Pibu's article and Y. Gordon's book), the major difference is in wing area - 11.36m vs 12 mtr, plus the additional flaps on the K. The K is about 800kg heavier thanks to this as well as the arrestor hook and strengthening. I dunno if the corrosion treatment for the engines cause any weight increase. But despite all this, and the additional increase in fuel/payload the K is shown as 12400kg, which is an improvement over the original K (12700kg).

The 35 being lighter than the K by 800kg would put it at 11600 kgs, exactly the weight of the MiG-29M. No wonder therefore that the russians didn't bother to send a newer airframe for the flight evals - the later 35 (if built) should be the same weight as the current (MiG-29M) prototype, perhaps even lighter.

Gaur wrote:CM,
These advancements of Mig-35 were given by Igorr as reply to some poster on BR itself. So it should be credible.
In fact I forgot to add two more difference. Igorr had also said that Mig-35 has broader weapon spectrum as compared to Mig-29k (specifically +3M-14, 3M-54, KAB-1500). Also its max load is 6500kgs as compared to 5500kg of Mig-29k.

FWIW, the 3m14 was shown beside the K circa 2007 Maks, iirc it was Igorr who put up the pic. Also, the max payload of the MiG-35 should be more than 6500kg, I'll warrant close to or above 7000kg. The MiG-29K is now shown as having a payload of 6500kg.
Also what do you mean about the OLS being same on both? OLS-UEM is common to both but I have not read anywhere that Mig-29K has OLS-K.

The OLS offered for the MiG-35 at least front sector is the same as the one on the K, the NIIPP developed OLS-UEM.

You say it would prob be replaced by Litening. Do you mean that it is present and would be replaced or that its vacancy would be filled? If so, then we should have heard something by now. Yet there is no news of Litening pod on Mig-29k.


I am hazarding a guess here since the OLS-K (downward looking LDP/IRST) has not been seen on the K at all. This piece is conformally mounted on the MiG-35 prototype. All that MiG says is this:
There is the possibility of installation on aircraft of IR and laser sighting equipment pods for ground targets illumination.

Sort of open ended since it does not mention which pod specifically; why not the Litening? For the IN, it would make sense to go with the Litening for a couple of reasons: Firstly, the IAF has it for much of its strike/multirole fleet including russian makes such as the MKI and MiG-27. Thus, there is plenty of experience integrating it with western and russki platforms/munitions. b) The Tejas has it too. No point in having two different type of designators on board, when one can work for both. OToh, the the MIG-29K has not been advertised with russian laser guided pgms at all, only the optical and tv guided ones. Possibly, the MiG-29K does not have an LDP at all and no laser guided bombs.

Also, you say thrust vectoring is optional for both a/cs. AFAIK, TV was never offered with Mig-29k. True, it could be offered in future, but as of now it is a feature unique to Mig-35.

As of now the MiG-35 does not have any TVC; not by default. However, TVC is a possibility, similarly with the K, depending upon customer requirements. In fact the only a/c with TVC in MiG's stable is the OVT, which is essentially an M airframe.

CM.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 29 Dec 2009 07:56

TVC comes with substantial weight increase (Iirc to the tune of 1000kg in case of the MKI ) something to be taken into consideration for carrier based ops .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 29 Dec 2009 08:09

negi wrote:TVC comes with substantial weight increase (Iirc to the tune of 1000kg in case of the MKI ) something to be taken into consideration for carrier based ops .


Negi,

Are you sure, I was under the impression that TVC resulted only in 200kg per engine for the MKI. Hence the empty weight of 18400kg.

For the RD-33MK, the TVC adds nominal weight
http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:9Yi-qoCI7QIJ:klimov.ru/f/download/press-kit/2100054687/2100054340/+Klimov+RD-33MK&hl=en&gl=us&sig=AHIEtbR0PgysRJcMTTP2DxChvHNvodKgJw


CM.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 29 Dec 2009 08:25

Yikes I added an extra zero ; but then even that seems to be wrong as per NPO saturn's website AL31F and AL31FP both weigh 1520 Kg. :-?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 29 Dec 2009 09:16


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 29 Dec 2009 09:24

This pic posted by Kartik saar shows a Mig-29 KUB in Russian colours. Is it not true, that IN was the first customer of the aircraft and that the RusN ordered it after seeing how well the MiG had come off? And RusN has a MiG-29 KUB already on their carrier, even before our Navy has it flying in India?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kapil » 29 Dec 2009 10:08


The President of India ,Shrimati Pratibha Patil in her capacity of the
Supreme Commander of the Armed Forces embarked on the Aircraft
Carrier,INS Viraat.

This was her first visit to Viraat after becoming President.Viraat has
just completed 50 years of continuous service afloat including nearly
27 years with the Royal Navy as HMS Hermes and the rest with the
Indian Navy since her induction on 12 May 1987.
In her previous incarnation of Hermes,she was the flagship of the
fleet in Operation Corporate,the code name for the liberation of the
Falkland Islands and South Georgia in 1982.
She flew the flag of Rear Admiral Sandy Woodward ,the Flag Officer
Commanding Flotilla 1 and covered herself with glory while validating
the Sea Harrier in its carrier-borne Fighter,Reconnaisance,Strike
role.

Viraat now flies the flag of Rear Admiral Pattnaik,the Flag Officer
Commanding Western Fleet.Admiral Pattnaik’s last seagoing command was
INS Mumbai (D62) and he was instrumental in formulating tactics during
Op Sukoon,the Indian Navy’s humanitarian mission in Lebanon.

Viraat is commanded by Captain Anil Kumar Chawla,NM who is a Navigation and Direction Specialist and whose last command was INS Tabar.

Viraat has emerged from a fast refit at Kochi and she embarks 4
different types of aircraft:
Sea Harriers of INAS 300 White Tigers(these have now been upgraded
and are more potent then ever)
Sea King Mk 42Bs of INAS 330 Harpoons ,which provide a significant
fleetwide ASW capability.
Chetaks of INAS 321 Angels which are used in the SAR and communication role
Sea King Mk 42Cs of Zappers,the Marine Commando Flight
Kamov 31s of INAS 339 Falcons also embark occasionally as per
operational requirements.

Viraat was at anchorage for the president’s visit.Consequently ,the
President did not sail.
The President arrived on a Sea King Mk 42 C and boarded a Maruti Gypsy
to inspect a Guard of Honour.
She was then briefed on the events that would occur during the next few hours.
3 Chetaks and another ‘Charlie’ ferried in other dignitaries and
headed back to INS Shikra immediately.
Apart from the President and her spouse, the Governor of Maharashtra
,Shri S C Jamir was also on board the ship.The Chief of Naval
Staff,Admiral N K Verma(a former Viraat CO), the Flag Officer Commanding Chief,Western
Naval Command V Adm Sanjeev Bhasin,the Chief of Staff V Adm Pradeep
Chauhan(another former Viraat CO),the FOCWEF R Adm Pattnaik were the senior Naval Brass on
board.
The President’s helicopter was quickly moved and lashed down aft of
the Flyco behind the LUSHed Sea Harrier 606 which had been moved aft
as well.

Security was tight in the form of MARCOs on guard at various points on
the flight deck and sponsons. Additionally,speed boats bearing armed
MARCOs were continuously circling the carrier and they got out of the
way only during the steam past.
The Steam Past was led by INS Delhi (D61) .As she steamed past
majestically,a Chetak from the Fleet Support Squadron turned up above
her quarterdeck and demonstrated fast slithering by a hit of MARCOs.
Delhi was followed by INS Trishul looking sleek and fit.
INS Betwa was the last of this column and one speculated how much more
capable the IN would be if ships built for carrying 2 SeaKing category
helicopters did actually carry them (the Delhi class,the Godavari
Class and the Brahmaputra class ).

INS Vidyut (K48) and INS Veer (K40) of the legendary 22nd Missile Boat
Squadron ,K22, steamed past rapidly from the other direction even as
the fleet ships were in the background.

INS Shankush then sailed past partially surfaced ,even as an XFAC
turned up rapidly in the K Class column.

Shankush continued sailing at her leisurely pace when 2 Sea King Mk
42Bs of the Harpoons turned up alongside Viraat and demonstrated a
dunking mission. The downwash was tremendous and the helicopters were
steady as the sonobuoy was dunked and recovered.

The FLYCO was the busiest part of the ship due to the activity going
on.Suddenly, the sound of a Jet Engine was heard and a Sea Harrier
operating ex-Santa Cruz was spotted zooming over head into the
distance.
The Deck Hover was cancelled due to some issues with headwind,so the
SHAR turned up ahead of the ski jump as if asking ,”Boss,any parking
available?” and then nozzling up and zooming out again.
A small flypast of 3 Chetaks,2 Sea King Mk 42 Bs and 2 Ka-31s took place.

The President then moved down to the hangar for a Sainik Sammelan.The
Sammelan was preceded by a soft launch of the Coffee Table Book
:Hermes to Viraat by the President.
She also released a book of anecdotes in Hindi written by Captain
Babeley,the current Command Education and Welfare officer.
It is a sweet little book of poems and anecdotes titled “Viraat ke
Deck se” .Watch his space for a review.
Post sammelan she was given a rousing Teen Jai by the ship’s company
present in the Hangar and after interacting with a few of them she and
other dignitaries went back up on the flight deck by the Ship’s lift
and they headed for lunch.

It was a small peek into life on board a warship and the Navy’s
professionalism shone through the entire day.Few countries can operate
aircraft carriers and India continues to be a highly qualified member
of this little club.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 29 Dec 2009 10:29

Dmurphy wrote:This pic posted by Kartik saar shows a Mig-29 KUB in Russian colours. Is it not true, that IN was the first customer of the aircraft and that the RusN ordered it after seeing how well the MiG had come off? And RusN has a MiG-29 KUB already on their carrier, even before our Navy has it flying in India?

IIRC 941 was the test article i.e the first prototype.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby saurav.jha » 29 Dec 2009 12:40

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1091229/j ... 919544.jsp

New Delhi, Dec. 28: The Indian Navy has invited five global makers of combat planes, including the US-led F-35C Joint Strike Fighter, to participate in a competition for deck-based aircraft that it wants to buy.

Deck-based aircraft for navies have special requirements — like foldable wings because of limited space in carriers and ability for short/vertical take-off and landing.

India’s biggest military hardware supplier, Russia, which was asked for information on the Sukhoi-33, has opted out of the race saying it is phasing out the plane, a navy source told The Telegraph.

But Russia is negotiating with China to sell 50 Sukhoi-33 aircraft for the Chinese PLA Navy’s aircraft-carrier programme.

The first four of 12 Russian-made MiG 29K fighter aircraft contracted for the Indian Navy, however, reached India earlier this month. The aircraft are yet to be assembled because they were delivered in a knocked-down condition.
A MiG 29K deck-based aircraft at an airshow

The MiG 29K are to be based on the INS Vikramaditya, as the Indian Navy has rechristened the Gorshkov carrier for which a re-negotiated price is yet to be contracted.

Essentially, the Indian Navy is now beginning to get the aircraft without the carrier to base them in. So it has fashioned an airstrip that is mimicking the Gorshkov’s flying deck in the INS Hansa, the naval base in Goa, to induct the MiG 29K.

Among the five aircraft for which the Indian Navy has sent Requests for Information (RFI) are the F-18 Superhornet (made by Boeing for the US Navy), Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS supported by a European consortium) and France’s Dassault Aviation for the Rafale.

The Indian Navy had originally not sent an RFI to Sweden’s SAAB but the company expressed interest and was sent a request for the naval variant of the Gripen JAS 39.

The Superhornet, Eurofighter, Rafale and the Gripen are among six aircraft (the other two being the F-16 Super Viper and the MiG 35) contending for the biggest fighter aircraft competition going in the world today — the Indian Air Force’s order for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft that could be worth more than $12 billion.

The Indian Navy’s overt interest in the F-35C Lightning II is a bit of a surprise. The F-35C is the US Navy variant of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) programme being implemented by Lockheed Martin and is known in the aviation industry as the only fifth-generation aircraft.

The naval variant was rolled out of Lockheed’s plant in Fort Worth, Texas, only in July this year. It is yet to be flight-tested.


Apart from the US, nine other countries are participating in developing the JSF — the UK, Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore and Turkey. India has separate agreements with Russia to co-develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) but that is nowhere near the stage of development that the JSF has reached.

The navy officer said the plan was to raise a squadron (between 16 and 20 aircraft) for the aircraft carrier that India is building on its own in Kochi (called IAC for Indigenous Aircraft Carrier). The IAC will be at least eight years in the making (2018).

The deck-based aircraft competition is being thrown open to global makers as a contingency measure because India’s own Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is inordinately delayed.

The Indian Navy’s only aircraft carrier, the INS Viraat, that sails with British vintage Sea Harrier aircraft onboard was refitted after being in the dry dock for nearly two years till November.

Its fleet of aircraft is also depleting fast with not enough back-ups. The navy now has less than a squadron-strength of the aircraft.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 29 Dec 2009 12:58

Dmurphy wrote:This pic posted by Kartik saar shows a Mig-29 KUB in Russian colours. Is it not true, that IN was the first customer of the aircraft and that the RusN ordered it after seeing how well the MiG had come off? And RusN has a MiG-29 KUB already on their carrier, even before our Navy has it flying in India?


It may be the company prototype..I don't have Piotr Butowski's article that Austin had scanned and posted here, but if I remember correctly, Bort 941 was a company prototype.

and its common practice to fly prototypes in the colours of the nation that built it till its handed over to the customer. For instance, Indian Hawks when being test-flown in the UK, had RAF roundels. as to why the other MiG-29KUB had IN markings, its because they had already handed them over to the IN.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 29 Dec 2009 13:42

^^ Just a minor correction. The IN MiGs were not yet handed over but were undergoing trials on Adm. Kuznetsov then.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 29 Dec 2009 14:02

Dmurphy wrote:^^ Just a minor correction. The IN MiGs were not yet handed over but were undergoing trials on Adm. Kuznetsov then.


they were handed over to the IN in Russia itself. the IN simply kept those fighters in Russia in order to get pilots trained on them there itself before bringing them to India. the event you're referring to is their arrival in India, I guess, where they arrived in SKD form by ship.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Anoop. A. » 29 Dec 2009 16:19

Livefist article on sea gripen

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/12/exclusive-sea-gripen-pitch-to-indian.html

As was reported recently, the Indian Navy has sent out an RFI on a new multirole deck-based fighter. One of the potential contenders is Saab with its little known Sea Gripen. Here's an official brief along with official photographs of the Sea Gripen by Peter Nilsson, VP Op Capabilities at Gripen:

The Sea Gripen Programme Saab AB has since the beginning of the Gripen programme analysed and discussed a carrier based version from time to time. The first studies go back to the mid-90s. The studies have been initiated due to interest shown by difference countries which see the land based Gripen as their future land based fighter alternative and who also have, or are aiming to, develop carriers within their fleets. One of the main reasons is Gripen’s one of a kind capability to operate from rugged short road strips, which leads to the obvious corollary of “How much re-construction is needed to re-design the Gripen into a carrier based version?”

The basic Swedish Air Force requirements in the original design for securing the capability of short strips operations is very like “carrier based ops”. Qualities like; low landing speed, high pitch and roll authority, high precision glide slope control, high precision landing capability, high sink rate clearance, strengthened airframe etc. are built-in from the beginning.

Add Gripen´s character for active service in field with easy maintenance (engine changes < 1 hour in field, no need for external power etc) makes the “jump” much shorter with Gripen compared to other land-based fighters’ opportunity to transform into a “deck-based” fighter.

The decision to launch the programme within Saab AB was taken in the context of Gripen market opportunities in two nations which are both at the beginning of developing a carrier based capability for their Armed Forces, namely Brazil and India. The Sea Gripen Programme is aimed for naval-/carrier based operations.

A few highlights: The Sea Gripen is a development programme with its origin from the Gripen NG programme. Sea Gripen is aimed for both CATOBAR and STOBAR operations. The main technical re-designs are:

*
New undercarriage and nose gear to cope with higher sink rate forces and catapult launches.
*
Strengthened air frame in some areas.
*
Redesigned arrestor hook
*
“Marinazing” of the aircraft (increased requirements on salt water protections, operations in hot and humidity conditions etc.)

All together the re-design will add weight on the airframe which will give an empty weight between 7500-8000 kg. (~400 kg extra weight compare to Gripen NG) Due to its balanced size there are no needs for structural changes like folding wings Sea Gripen will be a very appealing alternative for nations with smaller size carriers. Its well balanced weight/size compare to heavy twin-engine alternatives will allow nations to move from “air defence”- carriers to a concept with strategic capabilities, without a replacement of their carriers. All sensors, avionics and weapons within the Gripen NG programme will be offered in the Sea Gripen.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 30 Dec 2009 00:00

I don't know why he's calling it "exclusive"..its been known for several days now and the news was broken by Janes Defence Weekly initially and Stratpage had an article on it as well.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vinito » 30 Dec 2009 01:07

saurav.jha wrote:http://www.telegraphindia.com/1091229/jsp/nation/story_11919544.jsp

New Delhi, Dec. 28: The Indian Navy has invited five global makers of combat planes, including the US-led F-35C Joint Strike Fighter, to participate in a competition for deck-based aircraft that it wants to buy.

Deck-based aircraft for navies have special requirements — like foldable wings because of limited space in carriers and ability for short/vertical take-off and landing.

India’s biggest military hardware supplier, Russia, which was asked for information on the Sukhoi-33, has opted out of the race saying it is phasing out the plane, a navy source told The Telegraph.

But Russia is negotiating with China to sell 50 Sukhoi-33 aircraft for the Chinese PLA Navy’s aircraft-carrier programme.

The first four of 12 Russian-made MiG 29K fighter aircraft contracted for the Indian Navy, however, reached India earlier this month. The aircraft are yet to be assembled because they were delivered in a knocked-down condition.
A MiG 29K deck-based aircraft at an airshow

The MiG 29K are to be based on the INS Vikramaditya, as the Indian Navy has rechristened the Gorshkov carrier for which a re-negotiated price is yet to be contracted.

Essentially, the Indian Navy is now beginning to get the aircraft without the carrier to base them in. So it has fashioned an airstrip that is mimicking the Gorshkov’s flying deck in the INS Hansa, the naval base in Goa, to induct the MiG 29K.

Among the five aircraft for which the Indian Navy has sent Requests for Information (RFI) are the F-18 Superhornet (made by Boeing for the US Navy), Eurofighter Typhoon (EADS supported by a European consortium) and France’s Dassault Aviation for the Rafale.

The Indian Navy had originally not sent an RFI to Sweden’s SAAB but the company expressed interest and was sent a request for the naval variant of the Gripen JAS 39.

The Superhornet, Eurofighter, Rafale and the Gripen are among six aircraft (the other two being the F-16 Super Viper and the MiG 35) contending for the biggest fighter aircraft competition going in the world today — the Indian Air Force’s order for 126 medium multi-role combat aircraft that could be worth more than $12 billion.

The Indian Navy’s overt interest in the F-35C Lightning II is a bit of a surprise. The F-35C is the US Navy variant of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) programme being implemented by Lockheed Martin and is known in the aviation industry as the only fifth-generation aircraft.

The naval variant was rolled out of Lockheed’s plant in Fort Worth, Texas, only in July this year. It is yet to be flight-tested.


Apart from the US, nine other countries are participating in developing the JSF — the UK, Australia, Canada, Denmark, Italy, Netherlands, Norway, Singapore and Turkey. India has separate agreements with Russia to co-develop a fifth generation fighter aircraft (FGFA) but that is nowhere near the stage of development that the JSF has reached.

The navy officer said the plan was to raise a squadron (between 16 and 20 aircraft) for the aircraft carrier that India is building on its own in Kochi (called IAC for Indigenous Aircraft Carrier). The IAC will be at least eight years in the making (2018).

The deck-based aircraft competition is being thrown open to global makers as a contingency measure because India’s own Tejas Light Combat Aircraft is inordinately delayed.

The Indian Navy’s only aircraft carrier, the INS Viraat, that sails with British vintage Sea Harrier aircraft onboard was refitted after being in the dry dock for nearly two years till November.

Its fleet of aircraft is also depleting fast with not enough back-ups. The navy now has less than a squadron-strength of the aircraft.


If the Indian Navy is looking at the Mig-29K operating the Gorshkov class, why do they want to use different aircrafts for the second carrier. From a maintainence standpoint wont it make more sense to ensure commonality rather than go for a second type of aircraft?

The Mig-29K is capable of operating from a ski jump and being recovered using a catapult as has been tested on the Kuznetsov. Isnt the same arrangement also going to be used for the Indian carrier?

Eurofighter and Gripen will not be used on aircraft carriers as the Swedish dont have a carrier and the British have already decided to use the F-35 for their own carriers. The Eurofighter design of having a F-16 type inlet is not suited for carrier operations and hence may also require a design change for the naval version.

that leaves the Rafale, Super hornet & Mig-29K. Given the size of the Indian carrier which is less compared to the American super carriers the Mig-29 K is a better option in terms of price and also that its being used on the Gorshkov. Rafale is too expensive and the Super Hornet is going to give us nightmares due to uncle sam's attitude. So the Mig-29K wins hands down.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Anoop. A. » 30 Dec 2009 02:17

Vinito wrote:
The Mig-29K is capable of operating from a ski jump and being recovered using a catapult as has been tested on the Kuznetsov. Isnt the same arrangement also going to be used for the Indian carrier?



Catapult is used as launching system in the CATOBAR (Catapult Assisted Take off But Assisted Recovery) used in Nimitz Class, Enterprise, Sao Paulo and Charles de Gaulle...........Arrester wire are used for landing. Same applies for STOBAR(Short Take off But Assisted Recovery) operation to be used in Vikramaditya.
Last edited by Anoop. A. on 30 Dec 2009 02:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 30 Dec 2009 02:20

steam catapults used for launching an aircraft
arrestor wires - used for recovering or landing on a deck...

unless there are new developments that I'm unaware of barring the EMALS

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gaur » 30 Dec 2009 10:15

Vinito wrote:The Eurofighter design of having a F-16 type inlet is not suited for carrier operations and hence may also require a design change for the naval version.

Forgive my ignorance, but why would that be a problem? Do you mean to say that, if inlet is below the body, it increase the chance of FOD? If so, would it not be a hazard in ground operations as well? Yet, there is no report saying so, or is there one and I am simply unaware of it?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby kit » 30 Dec 2009 11:15

India’s biggest military hardware supplier, Russia, which was asked for information on the Sukhoi-33, has opted out of the race saying it is phasing out the plane, a navy source told The Telegraph.

But Russia is negotiating with China to sell 50 Sukhoi-33 aircraft for the Chinese PLA Navy’s aircraft-carrier pro gramme.

Is Russia opting out because it is selling the Su 33 to China ? probably the EDIT are demanding their pound of flesh.It has been some source of consternation with the Chinese that the Russians are selling the same or better stuff to the Indians. Are we seeing some sort of 'correction' here ? Su 33 would probably be enter naval service much earlier than other aircraft since IAF operates a similar version.That would leave IN with a lesser capable Mig for at least 10 yr. Su 33 with Chinese aircraft carrier/s can definitely take on an IN with seriously depleted submarine and carrier aircraft fleet in the next 10 yr.Could be Chinese strategy of leveraging and manipulating ? correct me if i am wrong.
Last edited by Rahul M on 30 Dec 2009 14:16, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: do not use that word.


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