Indian Naval Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Amit J
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 84
Joined: 27 Dec 2009 18:16
Location: CLASSIFIED

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Amit J » 30 Dec 2009 12:17

Gaur wrote:
I doubt anyone can answer that with full confidence. Both Mig-29k and Mig-35 look very similar but have significant differences. You say that Mig-29k is relatively new. Thats not true. Design wise and features wise Mig-35 is superior. For eg;


I didnt mean that the Mig-29 K is newer than the Mig-35, what i meant is that the K is a contemporary design and India being the first customer it is a new platform. No doubt the 35 is superior design wise; and therefore perhaps the way forward for a Naval fulcrum. The answer to what next after the Mig-29 K in a carrier based fighter

aditp
BRFite
Posts: 447
Joined: 15 Jul 2008 07:25
Location: Autoland

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby aditp » 30 Dec 2009 12:28

kit wrote:India’s biggest military hardware supplier, Russia, which was asked for information on the Sukhoi-33, has opted out of the race saying it is phasing out the plane, a navy source told The Telegraph.

But Russia is negotiating with China to sell 50 Sukhoi-33 aircraft for the Chinese PLA Navy’s aircraft-carrier pro gramme.

Is Russia opting out because it is selling the Su 33 to China ? probably the chinks are demanding their pound of flesh.It has been some source of consternation with the Chinese that the Russians are selling the same or better stuff to the Indians. Are we seeing some sort of 'correction' here ? Su 33 would probably be enter naval service much earlier than other aircraft since IAF operates a similar version.That would leave IN with a lesser capable Mig for at least 10 yr. Su 33 with Chinese aircraft carrier/s can definitely take on an IN with seriously depleted submarine and carrier aircraft fleet in the next 10 yr.Could be Chinese strategy of leveraging and manipulating ? correct me if i am wrong.



Since Russia itself is phasing out the Su-33 with the Mig-29, it is quite possible that the Chinese deal may never come to be. Moreover, the Su-33 proved to be more of a white elephant on board the the Kuznetsov. The Varyag isn't expected to be much better, when equipped with the Su-33. So it remains to be seen how successful the Chinese will be developing carrier operations capabilities with a fighter whose full potential cannot be exploited fully. So the Chinese carrier threat to IN assets shouldnt be as grave as the Su-33 could deliver if launched with full fuel and weapons load from a mega carrier.

If the IN is indeed looking forward to CATOBAR ops, a navalised MKI may perhaps be the best choice heavy hitter. That would give great economies of scale.

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 30 Dec 2009 12:44

aditp wrote:Since Russia itself is phasing out the Su-33 with the Mig-29, it is quite possible that the Chinese deal may never come to be. Moreover, the Su-33 proved to be more of a white elephant on board the the Kuznetsov.
Since we're only guessing, China could end up getting the entire TOT for Su-33! IIRC, Dassault offered us a similar deal with Mirage M2K before we opted for a multi fighter competition.

JMT.

aditp
BRFite
Posts: 447
Joined: 15 Jul 2008 07:25
Location: Autoland

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby aditp » 30 Dec 2009 12:47

Dmurphy wrote:
aditp wrote:Since Russia itself is phasing out the Su-33 with the Mig-29, it is quite possible that the Chinese deal may never come to be. Moreover, the Su-33 proved to be more of a white elephant on board the the Kuznetsov.
Since we're only guessing, China could end up getting the entire TOT for Su-33! IIRC, Dassault offered us a similar deal with Mirage M2K before we opted for a multi fighter competition.

JMT.



True, but France doesnt have the same threat perception of India, as Russia has of China ! :idea:

Amit J
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 84
Joined: 27 Dec 2009 18:16
Location: CLASSIFIED

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Amit J » 30 Dec 2009 12:51

saurav.jha wrote:http://www.telegraphindia.com/1091229/jsp/nation/story_11919544.jsp

New Delhi, Dec. 28: The Indian Navy has invited five global makers of combat planes, including the US-led F-35C Joint Strike Fighter, to participate in a competition for deck-based aircraft that it wants to buy.


Has the IN actualy issued a RFI for naval fighters, the PIB website http://www.pib.nic.in didnt generate results when i searched it, i had read the same report excluding the interest for F-35 a couple of weeks back, The RFI as per that report was apparently issued for Rafale, SHornet, Gripen, Eurofighter Typhoon. Now this report states F-35 JSF is been Requested FI !

Which report is true. Did IN actualy issue an RFI, why hasnt the same been seen in the Official Press Releases of Press Information Bureau. Was it supposed to be a secret, if so then was this news leaked and speculation took over ???

Dmurphy
BRFite
Posts: 1543
Joined: 03 Jun 2008 11:20
Location: India

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 30 Dec 2009 13:38

aditp wrote:True, but France doesnt have the same threat perception of India, as Russia has of China ! :idea:
While that may be true, they wouldn't want to lose out on the moolah like they did when they reverse engineered Su-30s into J-11s either. And the threat perception comes to a nought when one considers the fact that Russia has offered China the Su-35 as well. Its pure economics now.

And since Russia won't be using the assembly line for the Su-33s anyway, why not get it encashed instead? That too when they're gonna replace the old 33's with the much desired MiG-29Ks.

I'd be thinking on similar lines if I were a Russian Admiral.

bhavik
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 50
Joined: 26 Aug 2009 02:02

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby bhavik » 30 Dec 2009 13:58

China mulling naval base in Gulf of Aden: admiral

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hs9FI-bp-ej_mwo-HTAa4KBny6EA

As the world's largest importer of crude oil, China is reportedly interested in establishing naval bases in Bangladesh, Cambodia, Myanmar, Pakistan, Thailand and the South China Sea to protect its sea transportation lines.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17050
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 30 Dec 2009 14:15

Dmurphy wrote:
aditp wrote:Since Russia itself is phasing out the Su-33 with the Mig-29, it is quite possible that the Chinese deal may never come to be. Moreover, the Su-33 proved to be more of a white elephant on board the the Kuznetsov.
Since we're only guessing, China could end up getting the entire TOT for Su-33! IIRC, Dassault offered us a similar deal with Mirage M2K before we opted for a multi fighter competition.

JMT.

last heard the su-33 deal fell through. I don't know how feasible it is at this moment. the su-33k will be showing signs of age. btw, the fact that sukhoi will no longer work on the su-33k means that the chances of the naval pak-fa look that much brighter.

aditp
BRFite
Posts: 447
Joined: 15 Jul 2008 07:25
Location: Autoland

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby aditp » 30 Dec 2009 14:24

Dmurphy wrote:
aditp wrote:True, but France doesnt have the same threat perception of India, as Russia has of China ! :idea:
While that may be true, they wouldn't want to lose out on the moolah like they did when they reverse engineered Su-30s into J-11s either. And the threat perception comes to a nought when one considers the fact that Russia has offered China the Su-35 as well. Its pure economics now.

And since Russia won't be using the assembly line for the Su-33s anyway, why not get it encashed instead? That too when they're gonna replace the old 33's with the much desired MiG-29Ks.

I'd be thinking on similar lines if I were a Russian Admiral.


Somewhere on the "China Military watch" thread one of the gurus described how great a maintenance nightmarethe J-11 & Bandar are. I'd rather have the EDIT develop further nightmares (Su-33 copy and have them run down the deck and splash into the ocean :lol: ) in the next 10 yrs than equip them with top notch hardware now, just for a little moolah, specially if I have the Indiskiy cashcowski.
Last edited by Rahul M on 30 Dec 2009 17:30, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: do not use that word.

ashish raval
BRFite
Posts: 1390
Joined: 10 Aug 2006 00:49
Location: London
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 30 Dec 2009 14:25

bhavik wrote:China mulling naval base in Gulf of Aden: admiral

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hs9FI-bp-ej_mwo-HTAa4KBny6EA

As the world's largest importer of crude oil, China is reportedly interested in establishing naval bases in Bangladesh, Cambodia, Myanmar, Pakistan, Thailand and the South China Sea to protect its sea transportation lines.


India should calmly let all these nations sans Pakis know that in event of a conflict in the region their countries will be hit and possibly with nuclear weapons too so if they dont want to risk their own safety they should politely refuse chinese to build the bases or India will be forced to keep a massive naval firepower on the marine bourdaries of these countries.

shanksinha
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 98
Joined: 17 Aug 2009 16:48

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shanksinha » 30 Dec 2009 14:59

^^^^ I second what you say, things should be made clear to potential Chinese allies.

The only problem ofcourse, is the limited powers of dissuasion at our disposal". The "massive naval firepower" we are supposed to line up on these foreign shores is barely adequete to safeguard even our own backyards.

-Thanks

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 30 Dec 2009 21:05

I think the news of Sukhoi opting out because Su-33 is being phased out is incorrect.

First of all the Su-33 is still operational with Russian Navy on board its lone aircraft carrier Kuznetsov , although they have ordered 24 Mig-29K there is no confirmed or official news of phasing out of of Su-33 , its possible that both Mig-29K and modernised Su-33 will operate from Kuznetsov and the new carrier.

More ever why would Sukhoi loose business opportunities to sell aircraft to India , they would rather be very happy to custom build one for Indian navy , taking technologies from new Su-35 on the new Su-33

But I have grave doubts if MOF will approve another aircraft type for the IN , there is hardly any justification for such new toys and to fund IN expensive fancies and wishes all at the expenses of Indian Taxpayers ( unless ofcourse the Mig-29K and N-LCA fails miserably after induction an highly unlikely scenario )

Vipul
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3727
Joined: 15 Jan 2005 03:30

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vipul » 30 Dec 2009 21:14


Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4621
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 31 Dec 2009 15:02

This new RFI business is either to grab the Rafale/Shornet by piggybacking on the MRCA OR sniffing around for details on IN's next gen fighter, the MCA :)

CM.

Bheem
BRFite
Posts: 161
Joined: 12 Sep 2005 10:27
Location: Vyom

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Bheem » 31 Dec 2009 18:45

aditp wrote:Somewhere on the "China Military watch" thread one of the gurus described how great a maintenance nightmarethe J-11 & Bandar are. I'd rather have the EDIT develop further nightmares (Su-33 copy and have them run down the deck and splash into the ocean :lol: ) in the next 10 yrs than equip them with top notch hardware now, just for a little moolah, specially if I have the Indiskiy cashcowski.


pls give link

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17050
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 31 Dec 2009 18:50

Austin wrote:I think the news of Sukhoi opting out because Su-33 is being phased out is incorrect.

First of all the Su-33 is still operational with Russian Navy on board its lone aircraft carrier Kuznetsov , although they have ordered 24 Mig-29K there is no confirmed or official news of phasing out of of Su-33 , its possible that both Mig-29K and modernised Su-33 will operate from Kuznetsov and the new carrier.

More ever why would Sukhoi loose business opportunities to sell aircraft to India , they would rather be very happy to custom build one for Indian navy , taking technologies from new Su-35 on the new Su-33

But I have grave doubts if MOF will approve another aircraft type for the IN , there is hardly any justification for such new toys and to fund IN expensive fancies and wishes all at the expenses of Indian Taxpayers ( unless ofcourse the Mig-29K and N-LCA fails miserably after induction an highly unlikely scenario )

could it be that they see little justification for investing in the Su-33 for the future, unlike the mki it can't have a big demand from IN and no other country is likely to buy it, assuming PLAN is not allowed to by the deal with IN.
they may have even decided to focus on the naval PAK-FA.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 31 Dec 2009 21:03

Rahul M wrote:could it be that they see little justification for investing in the Su-33 for the future, unlike the mki it can't have a big demand from IN and no other country is likely to buy it, assuming PLAN is not allowed to by the deal with IN.
they may have even decided to focus on the naval PAK-FA.


Rahul , the RuN has offically not decided to deinduct Su-33 , its true that they are ordering 24 Mig-29K , it does not mean that Su-33 will just disappear it may see other roles ( dedicated Growler ) or will be modernized.

Sukhoi is really in a best position to offer the Su-33 variant to IN , as its a operational and proven platform for decades , compared to Mig-29K which is new and has to be operationally tested.

The Naval PAK-FA will take time and it will probably see the light of the day after 2020 , IN is more keen to get a new platform prolly by 2015 and the RFP is just a side show for IN to get JSF in service , many Senior Naval officers in the past have expressed interest in JSF and its really where the IN heart and mind is ( much like they were keen for P-8I and RFP for NG LRMP was just a formality ) provided the GOI approves the same.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2502
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 31 Dec 2009 21:27

Austin wrote:Rahul , the RuN has offically not decided to deinduct Su-33 , its true that they are ordering 24 Mig-29K , it does not mean that Su-33 will just disappear it may see other roles ( dedicated Growler ) or will be modernized.

The airframe are getting old (built in the 90s) so i don't see Russian navy modernizing them. They were quite hampered operating from Kuznetsov since they were limited to take off weight of around 24 tons.

Mig-29k itself is superior to Su-33 in performance and so i do not see the point of procuring them even for CTOVL IAC2 unless Sukhoi pumps in $$ for naval Su-35.

Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gaur » 31 Dec 2009 21:32

Austin wrote:........IN is more keen to get a new platform prolly by 2015 and the RFP is just a side show for IN to get JSF in service , many Senior Naval officers in the past have expressed interest in JSF and its really where the IN heart and mind is ( much like they were keen for P-8I and RFP for NG LRMP was just a formality ) provided the GOI approves the same.

And you reckon that, if chosen, F-35 can be delivered to India by 2015? Fat chance in my opinion. It is still a program under development and their first priority would be to first deliver F-35s to the program partners first (esp till level 3).And even if we were ready to wait for them, do you think that IN would be allowed to buy such expensive a/cs?

soumik
BRFite
Posts: 124
Joined: 15 Jan 2009 21:01
Location: running away from ninja monkey asassins

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby soumik » 31 Dec 2009 22:06

I think the In is going to go in for a mix of heavy and light aircraft on it's carriers in the future, maybe a squadron of rafale to be backed up by 2 squadrons of N-LCA.with the upcoming carriers slated to be 60,000tonnes+ they will certainly have the space.

Austin
BRF Oldie
Posts: 23387
Joined: 23 Jul 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 31 Dec 2009 22:41

The airframe are getting old (built in the 90s) so i don't see Russian navy modernizing them. They were quite hampered operating from Kuznetsov since they were limited to take off weight of around 24 tons.


Why not , the IAF is modernising its Mirage and Mig-29 which were manufactured in 80's.

What is the source of 24 T ? Neither Sukhoi site nor KNAAPO speaks of such limitations

http://www.sukhoi.org/eng/planes/military/su33/history/
http://www.knaapo.ru/eng/products/military/su33.wbp

Mig-29k itself is superior to Su-33 in performance and so i do not see the point of procuring them even for CTOVL IAC2 unless Sukhoi pumps in $$ for naval Su-35.


Superior in which paramater ? There is already news in the first link of Su-33 that AL-31FP engine is being tested with KUB

Su-27KUB testing is still in progress, the prototype having been fitted with new equipment and AL-31FP engines with thrust vector control.


Even a basic MKI type modernisation ( Engine/Avionics/Weapons/EW ) will make Su-33 far superior to 29K , if a full Su-35 modernisation is implemented with possiblity of 1500 T/R AESA module , the modernised Su-33 will outclass most carrier fighter operational or future types.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 17050
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 31 Dec 2009 22:50

austin ,may be ken knows about what su-33 actual MTOW is. would be nice to have a figure.
--------------------------

************XXXXXXXXXX************
very very important document with a number of interesting pics.
highly recommended.
http://indiannavy.nic.in/maritime_strat.pdf
************XXXXXXXXXX************

negi
BRF Oldie
Posts: 13112
Joined: 27 Jul 2006 17:51
Location: Ban se dar nahin lagta , chootiyon se lagta hai .

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 31 Dec 2009 22:57

I think one of the constraints might be the fact that Kuznetsov is too small for an AC as massive as the Naval flanker and then STOBAR puts limitations on the max permissible TOW for carrier based operations for such a huge aircraft. If RuN in future decides to induct large carriers or the one's with CATOBAR perhaps then we might get to hear/read about a next generation naval flanker , until then since Mig-29k production lines are busy (thanks to IN) it makes sense for RuN to invest in the same.

Juggi G
BRFite
Posts: 1070
Joined: 11 Mar 2007 19:16
Location: Martyr Bhagat Singh Nagar District, Doaba, Punjab, Bharat. De Ghuma ke :)

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 01 Jan 2010 00:34

A few Questions for the Gurus
In the first three Pics the Single Seater Sea Harriers of the one&only Squadron, are in two different colour schemes Ghost Grey & Darkest Grey (or Black), Why would that be :?:
Is the Ghost Grey colour scheme meant only for Limited Upgrade Sea Harriers :?:
Do Sea Harriers have a Retractable Probe for Aerial Refuelling or the One that Permanently Sticks Out :?:
Do All Sea Harriers have a Probe for Aerial Refuelling or only the Limited Upgrade Sea Harriers :?:

Il-38 's Engines emit Smoke like Hell at least while taking off, in the 4th Pic.

Image

Image Image Image Image

Images from Maritime Military Strategy Pdf
Last edited by Juggi G on 01 Jan 2010 16:19, edited 2 times in total.

Anoop. A.
BRFite
Posts: 102
Joined: 22 Nov 2009 15:12
Location: City of the snake with 1000 heads

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Anoop. A. » 01 Jan 2010 00:38

Rahul M wrote:austin ,may be ken knows about what su-33 actual MTOW is. would be nice to have a figure.
--------------------------

************XXXXXXXXXX************
very very important document with a number of interesting pics.
highly recommended.
http://indiannavy.nic.in/maritime_strat.pdf
************XXXXXXXXXX************

There is a beautiful picture of a IN Sea Harrier being refuelled by IAF IL 78 MKI tanker........very interesting material. Thanks for posting. Its a keeper... :wink:

Sandipan
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 83
Joined: 08 Dec 2008 06:22

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sandipan » 01 Jan 2010 00:52

Thanks Rahul for the informative document on maritime strategy

Prasad
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7533
Joined: 16 Nov 2007 00:53
Location: Chennai

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Prasad » 01 Jan 2010 01:29

Rahul M wrote:************XXXXXXXXXX************
very very important document with a number of interesting pics.
highly recommended.
http://indiannavy.nic.in/maritime_strat.pdf
************XXXXXXXXXX************


awesome! thanks for the link rahul.

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5346
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 01 Jan 2010 01:29

Juggi G wrote:A few Questions for the Gurus
• In the first three Pics the Single Seater Sea Harriers of the one&only Squadron, are in two different colour schemes Ghost Grey & Darkest Grey (or Black), Why would that be :?:
• Is the Ghost Grey colour scheme meant only for Limited Upgrade Sea Harriers :?:
• Do Sea Harriers have a Retractable Probe for Aerial Refuelling or the One Permanently Sticking Out :?:
• Do All Sea Harriers have a Probe for Aerial Refuelling or only the Limited Upgrade Sea Harriers :?:


the difference in camo schemes was introduced in October 2004 (Ref.Harry's article) and was seen in pics that are there on BRF in the year 2006 itself, much earlier than the LUSH upgrade. some of the SHars retained their original camo scheme, the one in which they were delivered, whereas some were repainted in the ghost gray scheme. Harry (may his soul rest in peace) stated in the above referenced ACIG.org article that it was shown in DACT that the new ghost gray camo was more difficult to spot than the older one. All newly upgraded LUSH SHars are in that camo scheme and the IN chose to get its new MiG-29K/KUBs in the same scheme. also note that they had a low visibility IN roundel from a long time ago. Not sure why they didn't get those on the new MiG-29Ks.

SHars from 2005, image credit Harry

so the ghost gray camo is not something that indicates a LUSH SHar.

These images are from the IN section gallery "White Tigers of Reva", named after the Maharaja of Rewa, who is credited with saving the White Tiger from extinction. also given a pic from Harry's excellent article

SHars from 2006
SHars from 2006- image 2
SHars from 2006- image 3
SHars from 2006- image 4

and IFR probes were added on to some of the SHars earlier than of the LUSH upgrade although those that didn't have any IFR probe would've had it added after the upgrade..4 SHars were upgraded by 2008 end, and the rest were to be completed in 2009, but SHars have been with IFR probes since 2007 itself. even from Malabar 2007, some of the the ghost gray camo SHars did not sport any IFR probe whereas one with the older camo scheme did

SHar with Super Hornet, Exercise Malabar 2007

SHar being refuelled, Exercise Malabar, image 2

However, based on the latest image of the SHar from Kapil's gallery, the one distinguishing factor for the LUSH SHar seems to be that it has a gray radome instead of a black radome as seen on the un-upgraded SHars.

John
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2502
Joined: 03 Feb 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 01 Jan 2010 02:05

Austin wrote:Why not , the IAF is modernising its Mirage and Mig-29 which were manufactured in 80's.

What is the source of 24 T ? Neither Sukhoi site nor KNAAPO speaks of such limitations

24 tons take off weight from Kuznetsov was the figure given out in Janes and few other places. The basic premise was thrust to weight has to be greater than for 1 for ski jump take off. And Su-33 thrust with AB is around 56,000 lbs.
There was discussion a while back on Keymags on this i can remember it vaguely. Have not posted there in ages you can perhaps confirm it.

As for the Mig-29 and M-2000, the Su-33 were not maintained that well there have been quite a few losses.

Austin wrote:Superior in which paramater ?

Mig-29k on paper can carry a larger payload when taking off from ski jump

Kartik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5346
Joined: 04 Feb 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 01 Jan 2010 02:11

John wrote:
Austin wrote:Why not , the IAF is modernising its Mirage and Mig-29 which were manufactured in 80's.

What is the source of 24 T ? Neither Sukhoi site nor KNAAPO speaks of such limitations

24 tons take off weight from Kuznetsov was the figure given out in Janes and few other places. The basic premise was thrust to weight has to be greater than for 1 for ski jump take off. And Su-33 thrust with AB is around 56,000 lbs.
There was discussion a while back on Keymags on this i can remember it vaguely. Have not posted there in ages you can perhaps confirm it.

As for the Mig-29 and M-2000, the Su-33 were not maintained that well there have been quite a few losses.

Austin wrote:Superior in which paramater ?

Mig-29k on paper can carry a larger payload when taking off from ski jump


I cannot recall which book I read it in, but it basically backs up your statements. the only reason the Su-33 was chosen was due to Sukhoi's influence, not any performance shortfalls of the MiG-29K as it was originally in the early 1990s.

Juggi G
BRFite
Posts: 1070
Joined: 11 Mar 2007 19:16
Location: Martyr Bhagat Singh Nagar District, Doaba, Punjab, Bharat. De Ghuma ke :)

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 01 Jan 2010 16:25

Kartik Sir ! Thank You Very Much for promptly & very Comprehensively answering all my questions. Am very Impressed by your Knowledge, you are a Guru indeed.

SHar Being Refuelled, Exercise Malabar, Image 2
The image above makes it amply clear, from where exactly the Refuelling Probe Emanates from on the Sea Harrier & from the looks of it, it is Not a “ Retractable Refuelling Probe ”, it is the one that Permanently Sticks Out.

It turns out that Refuelling Probes have been Retrofitted on Some Sea Harriers of Various PaintSchemes while others have been Left without them.

All these years I believed that the Sea Harriers had a “Retractable Refuelling Probe” instead of the one that Permanently Sticks Out. Because in Images taken in Different Years, Sea Harriers of Various PaintSchemes were Sporting the Refuelling Probes & the Images where the Sea Harriers of Various PaintSchemes had None, I wrongly deduced that they had theirs Retracted. So it was All a Disappearing Act of Sorts atleast for me.

Why not a Sea Harrier Fleet Wide Implementation of the Refuelling Probe :?:

Or the Plumbing & the Works are All there inside the body of the aircraft & they just screw on the Probe that sticks out of the airframe when it is required :?:

Image Image
Click to Enlarge.
The two Images of the lone Sea Harrier, in Kapil Chandni's Photo feature on the President's Viraat Embarkation & Day at Sea.

The Sea Harrier in the Images above is also not sporting any Refuelling Probe, is this particular Sea Harrier a "Limited Upgrade Sea Harrier" for sure :?: & the Missile its carrying, is it the Derby or not :?:

SNaik
BRFite
Posts: 524
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 10:51
Location: Riga

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 01 Jan 2010 20:00

John wrote:
Austin wrote:Why not , the IAF is modernising its Mirage and Mig-29 which were manufactured in 80's.

What is the source of 24 T ? Neither Sukhoi site nor KNAAPO speaks of such limitations

24 tons take off weight from Kuznetsov was the figure given out in Janes and few other places. The basic premise was thrust to weight has to be greater than for 1 for ski jump take off. And Su-33 thrust with AB is around 56,000 lbs.
There was discussion a while back on Keymags on this i can remember it vaguely. Have not posted there in ages you can perhaps confirm it.



For Су-27к TOW from 1st launch postion (105м) - around 30000kg (full internal fuel, 2 MRAAM, 2 SRAAM), from second launch position (195м) - 32200kg (full internal fuel, 8 MRAAM, 4 SRAAM ).

sumshyam
BRFite
Posts: 552
Joined: 23 Sep 2009 19:30
Location: Ganga ki dharti.
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sumshyam » 01 Jan 2010 20:02

Russia commissions delayed SSN before leasing it to India

The Akula-class (Project 971) nuclear-powered attack submarine (SSN) Nerpa (K 152) was commissioned into the Russian Federation Navy's Pacific Fleet on 28 December.

Aditya G
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3475
Joined: 19 Feb 2002 12:31
Contact:

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 01 Jan 2010 23:45

It seems IN Searcher has wing hard points .... 8)

Rahul M wrote:austin ,may be ken knows about what su-33 actual MTOW is. would be nice to have a figure.
--------------------------

************XXXXXXXXXX************
very very important document with a number of interesting pics.
highly recommended.
http://indiannavy.nic.in/maritime_strat.pdf
************XXXXXXXXXX************

Juggi G
BRFite
Posts: 1070
Joined: 11 Mar 2007 19:16
Location: Martyr Bhagat Singh Nagar District, Doaba, Punjab, Bharat. De Ghuma ke :)

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Juggi G » 02 Jan 2010 05:01

Navy tests new waters with N-subs, Indigenous Carrier
The Indian Express
Navy tests new waters with N-subs, Indigenous Carrier
Manu Pubby

Posted online : Saturday , Jan 02, 2010 at 0153 hrs

Unlike the Army and Air Force, the Navy has its modernisation plans on track and the coming year will see a massive addition in capabilities of the country’s smallest armed force. On all fronts — underwater, on the surface, in the air and even outer space — the Navy is set to acquire and add new platforms and assets that will widen its edge over maritime forces of neighbouring countries.

While the Navy has reached blue water capabilities, the absence of a few vital assets has constrained it from showcasing its true potential. The biggest asset the Navy is set to get in 2010 is the Nerpa nuclear attack submarine on a 10-year lease from Russia.

After several delays and hiccups, the re-entry of a nuclear powered platform in the Navy (after the INS Chakra that was also leased from Russia in the 1980s) will be a massive force addition. Besides the obvious benefits of having a stealthy submarine that can stay underwater for several weeks and even give US warships a run for their money 8) , the Nerpa will be a vital training platform.

The Nerpa will help train Indian Navy personnel on nuclear submarine operations, a skill that will be needed to be imparted to a large number of officers and men who will operate the indigenous Arihant class of nuclear submarines in coming years.

While Nerpa will shake things underwater, the Navy will also get longer legs in the coming year that will enable it to deploy ships for longer periods, in further waters than ever before. The induction of a modern tanker ship, which is currently being built by Italian firm Fincantieri, by the end of 2010 is being keenly watched by players in the region.

The tanker ship, which will Refuel and Replenish warships on the high seas, is a major force multiplier for any nation. Its induction in the Indian Navy will mark the entry of a modern tanker that will be used for overseas deployments and will be showcased at all forthcoming exercises.

Also on the surface, the coming year will mark the Historic Launch of India’s First Indigenous Aircraft Carrier :D . The first of the Vikrant class aircraft carriers, which is under construction in Kochi, will be Launched towards the end of 2010. This will be followed by Fitment of Weapon Systems, Sensors and other Equipment on the Warship 8) .

While the induction will not take place before 2014, the launching of the warship itself will be a major feat, considering that it will be India’s first aircraft carrier as well as the first warship built on a Modular Design
.

Corresponding with the carrier, the Navy will finally see its new fighter aircraft, the MiG 29 K flying in Indian skies. While four of the fighters were delivered a few weeks ago, the first flight is expected in early January once the aircraft have been assembled by Russian technicians.

Integrating all these platforms, and bringing the Navy a step closer to network centric warfare, will be the Navy’s first dedicated satellite that is set to be launched by the middle of next year. While the Navy currently relies on other channels of communication, the first ever dedicated military satellite to be launched next year will give it a vital communication link to bring all platforms — fighters, warships, aircraft carriers, submarines and even UAVs — on a common ground. Besides a secure communication channel, the satellite will make it easier to deploy and manage assets as part of the Navy’s network centric strategy.

While delays, hiccups and cancellations are common to all acquisitions in the armed forces, the Navy is set for a complete makeover in the coming year and decade, taking it to its rightful position as the deciding platform for military diplomacy.

Anurag
BRFite
Posts: 398
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Anurag » 04 Jan 2010 02:43

Some great Russian video footage of the Kh-25 being launched by IN IL-38 and Kora Class ship.


deWalker
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 89
Joined: 27 Apr 2003 11:31
Location: USA

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby deWalker » 04 Jan 2010 05:27

[quote="Anurag"]Some great Russian video footage of the Kh-25 being launched by IN IL-38 and Kora Class ship.

I'm surprised (if not shocked) to see an officer on deck during missile launch. Is there an on-deck battle station fore-ship? I always thought that the main gun is remotely operated...

Diwakar

andy B
BRFite
Posts: 1617
Joined: 05 Jun 2008 11:03
Location: Gora Paki

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby andy B » 04 Jan 2010 06:07

[quote="Anurag"]Some great Russian video footage of the Kh-25 being launched by IN IL-38 and Kora Class ship.

Its the KH 35 Uran (Harpoonski) boss...not the KH 25...cheers.

NRao
BRF Oldie
Posts: 16831
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Illini Nation

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby NRao » 04 Jan 2010 09:32

deWalker wrote:
Anurag wrote:Some great Russian video footage of the Kh-25 being launched by IN IL-38 and Kora Class ship.

I'm surprised (if not shocked) to see an officer on deck during missile launch. Is there an on-deck battle station fore-ship? I always thought that the main gun is remotely operated...

Diwakar


So was the fotografer or kamera man. I guess that officer was there for this photo shot.

SNaik
BRFite
Posts: 524
Joined: 26 Jul 2006 10:51
Location: Riga

Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby SNaik » 04 Jan 2010 16:20

Two updates from Russia (both dated 28 December):

India received 6 MiG-29K in 2009, not 4, according to Chief of OAK.
Nerpa will be transferred already in April, 2010.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests