Indian Naval Discussion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Mar 2010 13:25

There will be a serious "tug=of-war" between India and China over Burma,as for the Chinese,Burma is absolutely essential for outflanking the ASEAN seaways,especially the Malacca Straits.China is also reportedly worried about the growing threat from ASEAN subs,which several countries like Malaysia,Singapore,Indonesia and Vietnam are acquiring or have acquired.Add to ASEAN India's subs too and the Chinese do have a major problem.The recent Paki decision to have yet another major naval base near Pasni indicates that the Gwadar/Pasni facilities will be the base for PLAN subs and warships,at the entrance to the Gulf.China might also try a two-track strategy of a pipeline from Iran through Pak,replacing India as the Iranians are getting impatient with our obfuscating thanks to pressure form Uncle Sam,and a second through Burma.India cannot object to a sovereign state ike Burma building an oil/gas link to China as it would also beenfit themselves.It is the naval facilities that might sprout up on the Burmse coastline and islands that worries India and the visit of the Burmese naval chief is a very welcome step.India's "maritime diplomacy" is having far more success than traditional methods.

China concerned by ASEAN subs - admiral
http://en.rian.ru/world/20100227/158032505.html

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Mar 2010 14:51

Aegis Combat System (ACS) for Project 17A??

We are in touch with the Indian MoD regarding the Indian Navy’s consideration of the world’s most advanced shipboard Weapons System, the Aegis Combat System (ACS). The US Navy has briefed the Indian Navy on the capabilities of the world's premier area air defense combat system; other Asia Pacific navies operating Aegis systems are Japan, South Korea and Australia. Lockheed Martin and Hyundai Heavy Industries also included the Aegis CMS concept when answering the Project 17A RFI.

http://www.defenseworld.net/go/detailin ... .jsp?id=35

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Mar 2010 15:33

More details on the S-301 SEAL delivery system for subs,just $10 million ,which is making waves in the US and UK.Ideal for the IN.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/02/26 ... l_minisub/

By Lewis Page • Get more from this author

Posted in Science, 26th February 2010

A groundbreaking new miniature submarine in use by the US Navy's secretive, elite frogman-commando special operations force was actually designed and built in old Blighty, the Reg can reveal.

We reported first on the S301 mini-sub two weeks ago, noting from federal documents that the famous US Navy SEALs had leased a demonstration model for "doctrinal, operational, and organizational purposes". This was followed up last week by the Honolulu Advertiser, which had spoken to Submergence Group, the American firm listed by the US government as provider of the S301.

It emerged that the S301 - now in trials with the SEALs in Hawaii - had cost just $10m to develop, which contrasted especially well with the $885m+ spent on the ill-fated Advanced SEAL Delivery System (ASDS).

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 01 Mar 2010 15:37

shukla wrote:Aegis Combat System (ACS) for Project 17A??

We are in touch with the Indian MoD regarding the Indian Navy’s consideration of the world’s most advanced shipboard Weapons System, the Aegis Combat System (ACS). The US Navy has briefed the Indian Navy on the capabilities of the world's premier area air defense combat system; other Asia Pacific navies operating Aegis systems are Japan, South Korea and Australia. Lockheed Martin and Hyundai Heavy Industries also included the Aegis CMS concept when answering the Project 17A RFI.
http://www.defenseworld.net/go/detailin ... .jsp?id=35

ACS is composed of the following:

Aegis Weapon System (AWS), the fast-reaction component of the Aegis Anti-Aircraft Warfare (AAW) capability, along with the Phalanx Close In Weapon System (CIWS), the MK 41 VLS, Anti-Submarine Warfare (ASW) systems, and Tomahawk Land Attack Cruise Missiles (TLAM). Shipboard torpedo and naval gunnery systems are also integrated.

What are the chances of India getting TLAM (1700 KM range MTCR violation thingy) and if not what good is this scaled down version of AEGIS costing billions ?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 01 Mar 2010 15:46

Pl. read because we are building the same.Are our subs too limited in scoipe of operations becuase of the charcteristics mentioned in the Malaysian Scorpenes?

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsub/ ... 00225.aspx

These are basically coastal subs, built to defend local waters. In peacetime, these boats rarely stay at sea for more than a week at a time. These boats have only one toilet, and limited fresh water supplies. Thus the sailors got about one shower a week. There is also no proper kitchen, and the crew subsisted on prepared meals, that were boiled before eating (sort of super MREs). Thus, after passing through the Suez Canal, the "Tunku Abdul Rahman" stopped at Jeddah in Saudi Arabia, and then Djibouti. The longest stretch was from there to Cochin (Kochi) in southern India, where there was a three day layover. From there, the boat made the final leg of its voyage straight to Malaysia.

PS:Expansion of "MRE" meals.
"Meals Refused by Ethiopians"!

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 01 Mar 2010 16:20

well all the SSK-in-yellowsea fans should have got a rude awakening now. there is a reason the australians went to expense of Collins class 4000t design (though for them it didnt turn out well) and why the USN built the biggest submarines of WW2 with air conditioning and ice cream machines.

strong solutions need a strong bank account.

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 01 Mar 2010 18:53

INS Shivalik - latest pics
Shivalik-1
Shivalik-2

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 01 Mar 2010 20:21

neeraj wrote:INS Shivalik - latest pics
Shivalik-1
Shivalik-2

What are the radars in the second pic. One is the Fregat what is the other one?

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 01 Mar 2010 20:30

Roel wrote: A sub also has trouble looking directly up, if there is a stopped or slow moving fishing vessel on top of them and they do an emergency blow, like, again, with USS Greenville and the Japanese fishing boat, accidents happen.

QUOTE:
In a demonstration for some civilian visitors, Greeneville performed an emergency surfacing maneuver. As the submarine surfaced, it struck Ehime Maru, a high school fishing training ship.

Before departing on the mission, the captain of the Greeneville, Commander Scott Waddle, was informed that the ship's Analog Video Signal Display Unit (AVSDU) was inoperative. The AVSDU was an analog video monitor, located forward of the submarine's periscope in the control room, that displayed information from the sub's three sonar stacks and screens. The monitor helped communicate sonar information to the officer of the deck. Waddle decided to continue with the mission without attempting to repair the monitor, believing that it was not a crucial piece of equipment

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 01 Mar 2010 20:30

bhavani wrote:
neeraj wrote:INS Shivalik - latest pics
Shivalik-1
Shivalik-2
What are the radars in the second pic. One is the Fregat what is the other one?

Revathi? tsarkar ji, please comment!

ankit-s · Post by **ankit-s** » 01 Mar 2010 20:35

bhavani wrote:
neeraj wrote:INS Shivalik - latest pics
Shivalik-1
Shivalik-2
What are the radars in the second pic. One is the Fregat what is the other one?

Probably Orekh radar.......

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 01 Mar 2010 20:49

[quote="ankit-s]

Probably Orekh radar.......[/quote]

orekhs are one on the sides. I am talking of the big flat radar, probably looks like MF-STAR or something on those lines.

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 01 Mar 2010 20:51

ankit-s wrote:

Probably Orekh radar.......

He is not asking about the Dome radar, but the Three-D Surveillance Radar. Looks to me like Revathi..

Here is a picture for comparison

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 01 Mar 2010 20:52

Hmm looks like Revathi but considering 3D CAR is a S-band radar and really short on range for a LR Air Search Radar , it surprising IN went for a derivative of 3D CAR.

Naval Long Range Surveillance Radar are generally L band and the modern ones have an instrumented range of atleast 400 Km.

Probably IN feels a combination of 3D Top Plate and Revathi should be good enough to do the task. Atleast DRDO will be happy and proud that IN has accepted Revathi on capital ships.

bhavani · Post by **bhavani** » 01 Mar 2010 21:03

i think that it may not be revathi, looks bigger than that, what are the chances that it is an israeli or ooropean one.

suraj p · Post by **suraj p** » 01 Mar 2010 21:17

bhavani wrote:i think that it may not be revathi, looks bigger than that, what are the chances that it is an israeli or ooropean one.

Revathi was ordered by IN for P-28 vessels.

Is Akash SAM mounted on these Frigates???????

Tatra mounted version:
http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... INI-794866
Photo Reference/courtesy: Shiv Aroor's http://livefist.blogspot.com/

John · Post by **John** » 01 Mar 2010 21:32

suraj p wrote: Is Akash SAM mounted on these Frigates???????

No Akash is not installed on the vessels besides 3D-CAR is just a surveillance radar used by Akash (probably be used for MR-SAM as well) the fire control radar is Rajendra.

As for Shivalik that actually does look like Revathi and not the large variant of STAR as i had guessed earlier. Interesting choice, on paper the new Talwar will certainly be more capable than P-17s. With P-17A turning into MRCA like procurement program it would certainly make sense to build more modified Talwar locally.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 01 Mar 2010 22:14

I am all for 3 more P-17's with VLS-shtil or Barak-2's.

John · Post by **John** » 01 Mar 2010 23:50

vavinash wrote:I am all for 3 more P-17's with VLS-shtil or Barak-2's.

IMO Problem with P-17s is that it ended up being much larger than what was needed (last i read displacement was 5500 tons+) . As a result ended up being too expensive and taking much longer to build.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 01 Mar 2010 23:58

Sure for the first batch but why should the follow on take as long? Everything is in place.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 02 Mar 2010 01:04

What, no comments on the Welding jobs on pic 2 of INS Shivalik?? I guess it would put to rest about claims on "POOR WORKMANSHIP" from Indian Docks after looking at that pic!!

John · Post by **John** » 02 Mar 2010 01:35

vavinash wrote:Sure for the first batch but why should the follow on take as long? Everything is in place.

There were few delays due to supply issues (steel, GE Gas turbines). But another batch would still take at least 6 years. Unless you go with design that allows for more modular construction.

What, no comments on the Welding jobs on pic 2 of INS Shivalik?? I guess it would put to rest about claims on "POOR WORKMANSHIP" from Indian Docks after looking at that pic!!

Shivalik is well built and design wise it is much better than Talwar or upcoming Teg.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 02 Mar 2010 08:12

6 years is still alright. The P-15a's are still not ready and god knows when P-17a's will be built. P-17 with VLs-Shtil would be great.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 02 Mar 2010 08:52

ankit-s wrote:What are the chances of India getting TLAM (1700 KM range MTCR violation thingy) and if not what good is this scaled down version of AEGIS costing billions?

Your right.. offering i one thing.. but US gov clearances are another....

Seems like they've been interested in selling the system for a while now.. I remember reading earlier that they were open to using some indigenously (Indian) made components on it as well.. Ah there you go... This was sometime last year though..could be obsolete..

U.S. defence industry giant Lockheed Martin said it is open to using some Indian components if chosen to supply the country's navy with its Aegis ballistic missile defense system. "Because of the way the Aegis combat system is constructed, there is the ability to put specific indigenous capabilities in portions of it," Ric Rushton, director for sea-based missile defense at the firm, said late Monday.

He said the system is built on the principle of "open architecture", allowing countries buying it to use parts made at home, in the same way Japan and South Korea did.Those countries, the two top U.S. allies in Asia, have naval destroyers equipped with Lockheed's high-tech Aegis system, which is designed to track incoming missiles and shoot them down. "A similar model could work in India if that's what they are interested in," said Rushton, who was in Singapore for the IMDEX Asia 2009 maritime defense show, which opened Tuesday.

Rushton said no decision had been made by India."It's their timeline. I think they are looking to make a decision sometime this year," he said. "I'm very optimistic about it. I think there is a solid operational requirement on the part of the Indian navy, they need this kind of capability."

http://www.india-defence.com/reports-4372

I think arm-twisting, clearances, TOT..will remain a lingering thoughts before IN comes to any decision...and rightly so.. In the past IN opted for Barak-8 over the Patriot PAC-3 which the US has offered.. Will be interesting to see how thing pan out..

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 02 Mar 2010 13:29

Sunil, many on this forum have asked me this question. Frank answer is I don’t know. I haven’t been onboard Shivalik. I know juniors presently on Shivalik WATT and WWO, however I never ask any probing questions that put their careers at risk.

Doesn’t look like Revati since the mounting equipment is different (check my detailed pictures vis-à-vis these), and both Fregat and Revati are S-Band.

My best guess is RAN-40L, based on the fact that they held demos in India around the same time the secondary radar was being selected, and gave out press releases around the same time.

What intrigues me is that India’s premier AD destroyers Project 15A is getting an older generation RAWL while Shivalik, that has older Shtil missiles, is getting a newer generation radar.

Roel - good to see you after long time!

Philip - your link on the Scorpene & Gotland is utter nonsense. There is no author mentioned on the link. The reason Gotland was transported, as were Chinese Kilo's, is to save operational hours on the submarines. Main Battle Tanks are transported on trailers for very similar reasons. It doesnt mean tanks lack range or endurance. Indian submarines go long distances without being severly hampered by the limitations mentioned in the article. And if conventional submarines were so poor, the US wouldnt have imported one to train against!

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Mar 2010 16:33

BAE Systems to provide mission computer systems for Indian Navy P-8I patrol aircraft

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Mar 2010 16:47

The author of the article,from a def. wesbsite,argues that smaller subs have limited endurance as opposed to larger ocean going subs.It is why the Collins class was designed larger for longer range,endurance and a larger weaponload.Our Kilos too have better endurance and range than the U-209s.Most of the European subs are smaller because of the limited battlezones that they're operating within.However,newer subs like the German U-214s have AIP and extra underwater endurance,but cannot compare with nuclear powered subs.In the littorals the conventional diesel/AIP subs have the advantage still because they're smaller and quieter.US nuclear powered subs are trying to overcome this drawback by using in the littorals,UUVs launched and recovered from the larger mother subs.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 02 Mar 2010 17:00

What is your opinion of Oyashio class based on the parameters?

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 02 Mar 2010 17:08

tsarkar wrote:Doesn’t look like Revati since the mounting equipment is different (check my detailed pictures vis-à-vis these), and both Fregat and Revati are S-Band.

Detailed pictures ? Makes sense as Long Range 3D Naval Radars are preferred L Band , the S Band end up as MFR.

My best guess is RAN-40L, based on the fact that they held demos in India around the same time the secondary radar was being selected, and gave out press releases around the same time.

Thats a very capable Long Range Radar , but this some how does not look like RAN-40L we need front view of the pic though ,this some how looks similar to Revathi.

What intrigues me is that India’s premier AD destroyers Project 15A is getting an older generation RAWL while Shivalik, that has older Shtil missiles, is getting a newer generation radar.

That is probably because she is also getting a top notch israel 2248 AESA , RAWL-L can just to the long range Volume search and any interesting track seen can be pin down by AESA at equally long ranges using special mode of AESA.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Mar 2010 17:16

in RAN40L brochure the bar fixed atop the radar is same length as radar face. in P17 it is shorter.
not a definitive proof by any means, as these things can change.

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 02 Mar 2010 18:25

Admiral Gorshkov deal to be finalised

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 02 Mar 2010 18:44

Jamal K. Malik wrote:Admiral Gorshkov deal to be finalised

The second sentence from the seventh paragraph of the article is quoted below.
The trials themselves are expected to take approximately 35 months against the planned 19 months.

35 MONTHS = one month short of 3 YEARS!
When do they plan on commisioning this ship, in 2015???

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 02 Mar 2010 18:57

35 MONTHS = one month short of 3 YEARS!
When do they plan on commisioning this ship, in 2015???

As per the revised master schedule submitted by the Russian side, the harbour trials are scheduled to commence by March next year and will be followed by sea and aviation trials. The delivery of the ship is scheduled for December 2012.

from the same report

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 02 Mar 2010 19:52

nrshah wrote:
As per the revised master schedule submitted by the Russian side, the harbour trials are scheduled to commence by March next year and will be followed by sea and aviation trials. The delivery of the ship is scheduled for December 2012.

from the same report

Exactly, the schedule from MARCH 2011 to DECEMBER 2012, is the original 19 months of sea trials. But according to this report, Sea trials will begin in MARCH 2011 and end after a 35 month duration, i.e. APRIL 2014. We can expect a limited docking for rectification/correction of defects found during these sea trials. So, according to this report, we can expect commisioning by late 2014 or early 2015.

My point is that there is conflicting information in that report. Anyway, it is up to the Russians to be on schedule. Hope Vikramaditya is delivered on time.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 02 Mar 2010 20:11

Philip wrote:Expansion of "MRE" meals. "Meals Refused by Ethiopians"!

I believe it is meal REJECTED by thr Ethiopians !!!!

K

Just in a moood for splitting hairs!!

John · Post by **John** » 02 Mar 2010 22:22

Austin wrote:That is probably because she is also getting a top notch israel 2248 AESA , RAWL-L can just to the long range Volume search and any interesting track seen can be pin down by AESA at equally long ranges using special mode of AESA.

Are we sure the P-15A model is accurate it seems to be the same one they used 4 years ago? for example P-17 model displayed at launch certainly does not match Shivalik.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 02 Mar 2010 22:24

John wrote:Shivalik is well built and design wise it is much better than Talwar or upcoming Teg.

John, what exactly design-wise is much better in Shivalik than in Teg? Generally speaking it's just a double hangar version of Talwar. And Kortik has been exchanged for AK-630 + Barak-1 combo. And yes, TARs are different because of that- Revati instead of Pozitiv ME

John · Post by **John** » 02 Mar 2010 22:37

SNaik wrote: John, what exactly design-wise is much better in Shivalik than in Teg? Generally speaking it's just a double hangar version of Talwar. And Kortik has been exchanged for AK-630 + Barak-1 combo. And yes, TARs are different because of that- Revati instead of Pozitiv ME

I was not referring particularly to its armaments (few differences 76mm vs 100 mm, Israeli vs Russian EW suite, dual vs single RBU-6000).

The enclosed mast and superstructure (notice how RIB is hidden inside) as a whole is far better than Teg which is little more cluttered with antennas. Plus Shivalik's CODOG propulsion should give it better range and noise reduction than COGAG. However all this does not come cheap so price tag is far more than a Talwar.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 02 Mar 2010 23:06

John wrote:
Austin wrote:That is probably because she is also getting a top notch israel 2248 AESA , RAWL-L can just to the long range Volume search and any interesting track seen can be pin down by AESA at equally long ranges using special mode of AESA.
Are we sure the P-15A model is accurate it seems to be the same one they used 4 years ago? for example P-17 model displayed at launch certainly does not match Shivalik.

Hmmm so is it revathi?

Shameek · Post by **Shameek** » 02 Mar 2010 23:12

Livefist Link

Pics from TROPEX work up phase.