Indian Naval Discussion

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Mahendra
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Mahendra » 15 Apr 2010 13:41

It is said that the late TMA Pai of Manipal used his influence to get the government to sanction a commercial port in Mangalore instead of Karwar which was more naturally suited for the purpose.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby amit » 15 Apr 2010 14:32

Philip wrote:Lok,"R and R",rest and recreation is common to all navies especially US and western ones who have long patrol durations at sea and the sailorboys get their rocks off in popular watering holes like Thailand,Singapore,etc.The old saying that a sailor has "a girl in every port" is true,I have a relative who aeons ago has a cute Russian girlfriend too.So the dear old Cmde.,on a long stay in a foreign country without his family (one presumes) ,dashing blade that he looks too,was bound to find that he was attractive to members of the opposite sex.Relationships I'm sure have existed in the past too between Indian officers stationed abroad.So being found with his pants down isn't such a major crime,unless it is proven that this relationship was part of a "honey trap" and that he was getting his ghoulies "squeezed" for classified information.

There is an old story abut dear old Henry K,who on a trip to Russia was being treated like a czar of old and discreete hints were being made to him at bedtime whether he wanted some company to warm his sheets.After a few polite "NOs",Henry got exasperated at his hosts repeated offers and supposedly said,"OK,bring her on,take your pictures and then buzz off", or words to that effect! He spent a very cold night alone we are told!

The Karwar expansion is most welcome news,especially that the N-sub base and airfield will be built.The IN needs at least two major bases each on both east and west fully equipped to deal with any contingency,and out of close reach of the enemy .Bombay is just too crowded and we recently had the misfortune to have a merchantman sink a CG vessel.With a three-carrier navy in the offing from 2015 onwards,the demands will be huge for the IN in supporting carrier task forces as ell as subs,both nuclear and non-nuclear.


Philip,

I don't think you get the point here. Normal R&R does not include taking photographs of the session and having those photographs floating around the place to come up at a certain time. There are three possibilities:

1) The "dashing blade" wielding Commodore has kinky habits and likes to take photos of himself "performing";

2) The "lady" in question has kinky habits and likes to take photos of her "dashing blades" performing with her;

3) The whole operations was a well-laid out honey trap with the lady a willing accomplice.

Now tell me out of the three which one sounds most plausible to you?

Please, let's not try to pass this one off as something like, "Oh, boys will be boys, so lonely away from home need some petting" etc. just because the Russians are involved.

It may yet transpire that this "transgression" did not materially affect the Goroshkov pricing. But that does not mean that this was just one honest fling by the Commodore - I mean he may have very well thought of it that way but certainly the Mademoiselle involved was no ordinary "comfort giver" type, that is she does not fit the profile of one of the "girlfriend in every port" category.

The question that needs to be asked is why did the photos surface now and not before and why at all after the price seems to have been fixed? And since when did the Navy know about the existence of these photos?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sanku » 15 Apr 2010 14:39

amit wrote:The question that needs to be asked is why did the photos surface now and not before and why at all after the price seems to have been fixed? And since when did the Navy know about the existence of these photos?


Good point, but the more I think on these lines, the more I think is that some one else trying to put a oar in the works.

Meanwhile Amit, taking photos of the performance seems to be now the de rigour and not kinky any more.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Apr 2010 15:01

Kinky pics.Most likely taken with a hidden camera.If not nothing new too.Remember the good old Jaguar scandal...don't? Well dear old Jagjivam Ram was Def. Min. in those days when the Janata was in power and the DPSA ("deep penetration" strike aircraft,seriously ,no pun intended) deal was the flavour of the time.The Viggen,Mirage F-1 and Jaguar were in contention.Just before the winner was announced,Jagjivan Ram's son,Suresh Kumar (?) and his moll,a voluptuous teacher Sushma, were sensationally kidnapped and when released,also found in the car was a briefcase with sensitive documents relating to the deal and pics that were straight out of the Kamasutra involving the two,taken by them and published in Menaka's mag Surya.There was a great cartoon at the time of Janata "enfant terrible",Raj Narain in the corridor of parliament accosting members and opening his jacket and whispering,"want dirty pics?" I guess the old adage is true that "nothing sells like sex!"

Here is a lurid account of the scandal.A great read.Excerpts posted only as it is rther long.
http://www.echarcha.com/forum/archive/i ... 25710.html

PS:Sorry,I din't realise that the pics sites would appear.Honest.Erased.
Last edited by Rahul M on 15 Apr 2010 15:39, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: links are enough.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby amit » 15 Apr 2010 15:04

Philip,
There was not need to post that long and old piece of news with links to those objectionable photographs. My point still stands. This does not seems to be a innocent tryst between a lonely Seaman and a good Samaritan Natasha, something which, IMO you were trying to portray in your previous post. I think that point still stands.

Added later: Thank you Philip. I'm quite sure it was an inadvertent mistake. Let's move on.
Last edited by amit on 15 Apr 2010 15:39, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby amit » 15 Apr 2010 15:11

Sanku wrote:Good point, but the more I think on these lines, the more I think is that some one else trying to put a oar in the works.


Sanku,

If this was, for example, the MRCA contest, then your point about someone else doing the job would be IMO a very valid supposition. But AFAIK there was no contestant to the Goroshkov deal. Now the fact that these photos surfaced now, could be spun as being a technique to influence current contracts (read MRCA).

However, from timelines it is pretty obvious that the photos were taken a while back much before the MRCA contest warmed up. And frankly I don't really buy the idea that a foreign intelligence network would go into the trouble and effort to get a mole planted in Russia to take compromising photos of the Commodore. Why? Not because they can't but because all available evidence shows that the Commodore is too low in the pecking order to have been worth the effort for a foreign intelligence network to have taken such a risky job.

Sorry, IMO, all available evidence seems to indicate that this was a Russian operation. Now the question that could be asked, again IMO, is the Commodore the only one who was "trapped" or is there higher ups also there but whose pictures haven't yet surfaced?

Meanwhile Amit, taking photos of the performance seems to be now the de rigour and not kinky any more.


:eek: :eek: :eek:

I guess I belong to a earlier generation that you Sanku bhai. And I suppose the good Commodore got the pictures taken and gave them away as souvenirs? Have to check for his autograph! :)
Last edited by amit on 15 Apr 2010 15:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Apr 2010 15:17

Which tryst is "innocent"! No, I wasn't trying to shield the good commodore,but examining the options.As for the above post,its long because many might not even have heard of it,the reasons for the kidnapping were very political and a similar situ may be at work here.

Now with hindsght and the latest "scandal",in a deal so lucrative and worth far over $10 billion to the winner,one can expect a mountain of dirty tricks before the deal is won.The earlier news that MMRCA papers were in the hands of Lockheed just shows to what extent the rivals will go to discredit their opponents (A Q,why was Lockheed not banned unlike the poor Singaporeans and S.Africans in the artillery contracts?).Here,the US,Russians,French and British lead the pack as far as dirty tricks go,from their track records.The EU candidate in this scenario has the extra advantage of being able to call upon the dirty tricks dept. of several nations if it wishes!

As someone pointed out very presciently,why is this surfacing right now,when the deal is done,that too exposing an offcier rather low down in the price determination and decision making order.Are more revelations about to hit us?
One theory perhaps is to discredit Russian manufacturers,or a vendetta against the particular officer.The state of Russia today is still despite Putin's efforts,a bit of the Wild West,with the Russian mafia and powerful oligarchs,many of whom who live in the west ,able to pull strings anywhere at home.The recent murder of a Russian judge who came down on hard on extremist elements is an indication that the seamy side of life in Russia flourishes.
Last edited by Philip on 15 Apr 2010 15:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby amit » 15 Apr 2010 15:22

Philip wrote:Which tryst is "innocent"! No, I wasn't trying to shield the good commodore,but examining the options.As for the above post,its long because many might not even have heard of it,the reasons for the kidnapping were very political and a similar situ may be at work here.


Philip,
You miss the point. The incident was not a "tryst". The Commodore may have thought it was. But the lady in question, I'm sure, certainly did not go into the arrangement thinking it's just another simple "tryst".

In short, IMO, one was having fun while the other was "working". Care to guess who was doing what? And who the person was "working" for?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sanku » 15 Apr 2010 15:39

amit wrote:
Sanku wrote:Good point, but the more I think on these lines, the more I think is that some one else trying to put a oar in the works.


Sanku,

If this was, for example, the MRCA contest, then your point about someone else doing the job would be IMO a very valid supposition.


Well Amit, immediate short term economic benefit is not the only motivation is it? Long term move perhaps?

Or perhaps just something as simple as Commodore's friends in India having got their hands on the pics after his return?

Meanwhile Amit, taking photos of the performance seems to be now the de rigour and not kinky any more.


:eek: :eek: :eek:

I guess I belong to a earlier generation that you Sanku bhai. And I suppose the good Commodore got the pictures taken and gave them away as souvenirs? Have to check for his autograph! :)


Indeed Amit, I too am of the earlier generation, yet it does not harm to stay abreast of current developments. The point remains though, with the access of digital imaging, the idea of people keeping digital souvenirs of their efforts is not really such a distant concept.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 15 Apr 2010 15:48

Amit,has there been any news from reports of whether this was a "one night stand" or a long time affair? It brings to mind immediately the very recent scandal where a British diplomat,Dy.Consul-General in Yekaterinaburg fled Russia after he was similarly "exposed" ,"mano-duo-womano" Tiwari style!!

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/arti ... 79430.html

...and a US diplomat too in yet another Russian sting!

An American diplomat in Moscow is embroiled in a sex scandal after footage apparently showing him with a prostitute was released on the internet, the Daily Mail informs.The married envoy, a second secretary, was named as Kyle Hatcher by two Russian newspapers which reported unconfirmed claims that he was a CIA undercover agent.

The sex sting mirrored an incident last month in which a British diplomat in Russia, James Hudson, quit the Foreign Office after being filmed in bed with two women. The same happened in June with Ion Nuica, Romania's Consul to Chişinău, who resigned, after a tape in which he was surprised in intimate scenes with a woman, who was an employee of the Romanian Consulat in Chişinău was posted on the internet.

VIDEO: http://stirileprotv.ro/stiri/internatio ... a-azi.html

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby amit » 15 Apr 2010 16:07

Philip wrote:Amit,has there been any news from reports of whether this was a "one night stand" or a long time affair? It brings to mind immediately the very recent scandal where a British diplomat,Dy.Consul-General in Yekaterinaburg fled Russia after he was similarly "exposed" ,"mano-duo-womano" Tiwari style!!

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/arti ... 79430.html

...and a US diplomat too in yet another Russian sting!

An American diplomat in Moscow is embroiled in a sex scandal after footage apparently showing him with a prostitute was released on the internet, the Daily Mail informs.The married envoy, a second secretary, was named as Kyle Hatcher by two Russian newspapers which reported unconfirmed claims that he was a CIA undercover agent.

The sex sting mirrored an incident last month in which a British diplomat in Russia, James Hudson, quit the Foreign Office after being filmed in bed with two women. The same happened in June with Ion Nuica, Romania's Consul to Chişinău, who resigned, after a tape in which he was surprised in intimate scenes with a woman, who was an employee of the Romanian Consulat in Chişinău was posted on the internet.

VIDEO: http://stirileprotv.ro/stiri/internatio ... a-azi.html


Philip,
We are on the same page if you think this is a sex sting operation. I think the key point here that folks need to look at is the very existence of photographs. Normally if this was just a case of the Commodore having an affair it would not have been serious. But the photographs point to something more sinister IMO.

Why? Well look at the context. The Commodore is part of a Indian military delegation being hosted by the home country's military. You of all people know that in such situations the security protocols are much higher than would be the case if, for example, an ordinary Indian businessman were to fly into Moscow for some work and had a fling on the side.

The facts are pretty straightforward here. The Commodore was caught in a compromising position in camera. Now tell me do you think a foreign intelligence network would have done that? Note here the operative word is would and not could. Given time, effort and money I'm sure a foreign network could have staged this "honey trap". However, that brings things back to the point I made earlier. And that is all available evidence seems to suggest that the Commodore is really not that high up in the pecking order to have been worth the effort for a foreign intelligence network to have mounted such an operation. Hence IMO the simplest conclusion is that it was a Russian effort.

And make no mistake the very existence of photographs and the fact that they have surfaced shows that it was a "honey-trap". Normal people, doing normal things like having an affair don't take photographs and then allow them to float around to surface at some point of time. Surely that's a justifiable conclusion, nah?
Last edited by amit on 15 Apr 2010 16:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sanku » 15 Apr 2010 16:15

amit wrote:And make no mistake the very existence of photographs and the fact that they have surfaced shows that it was a "honey-trap". Normal people, doing normal things like having an affair don't take photographs and then allow them to float around to surface at some point of time. Surely that's a justifiable conclusion, nah?


Not at all. Normal people do that all the time.

And even if photographs were taken, it does not mean that either party was aware of it.

Too much jumping to conclusions.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 15 Apr 2010 16:18

It is possible that it was done by the Russian Intelligence to trap the good Commodore for his service in Gorshkov negotiation and when the Commodore refused to budge in , the Russian to discredit him must have passed it on to Indian Naval Intelligence.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby amit » 15 Apr 2010 16:23

Sanku wrote:Well Amit, immediate short term economic benefit is not the only motivation is it? Long term move perhaps?


Sanku,

You yourself in an earlier post correctly pointed out that the GoI has said prima facie the Commodore's actions seems to have had no bearing on the price negotiations - meaning that he was not in a position to influence the deal. Hence isn't it reasonable to assume that he isn't high enough in the pecking order to have been worth the effort for a foreign intelligence agency to try and trap him with long-term motives?

Even leaving that aside, taking your point about "long term motive", now who could have done it? I think all available evidence suggests it was a Russian operation. Just see my previous post address to Philip, and the one I addressed to you previously to understand why I say this.

Or perhaps just something as simple as Commodore's friends in India having got their hands on the pics after his return?


Simple is always good but this is too simple, I'm afraid. The Commodore has an affair in Russia and for several years nothing happens. Then suddenly his "friends" in India get hold of the pictures after his return? Do note that he's been back in India for quite a while, it's not like he came back and then the scandal broke.

Even assuming our good Commodore is a techno gadget freak and loves to take photographs of himself, I think it's a bit hard to take still pictures (note nobody has been talking about video) while being rather strenuously engaged in other more interesting pursuits? And even assuming that he's a man of incredible dexterity and multi-tasking ability and does indeed take the pictures, the moment he returns, voila, the pictures fall into the hands of his friends?

No wonder you're such a good writer Sanku Bhai, lots of imagination. :)
Last edited by amit on 15 Apr 2010 16:31, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby amit » 15 Apr 2010 16:25

Austin wrote:It is possible that it was done by the Russian Intelligence to trap the good Commodore for his service in Gorshkov negotiation and when the Commodore refused to budge in , the Russian to discredit him must have passed it on to Indian Naval Intelligence.


Austin,

IMO this is the most logical explanation. That doesn't mean the Russians are demons and we should cut off all ties with them. Every country that tries to win important deals try something like this. Some bribe decision makers with money, others with material gifts, favours etc. The Russians it seems prefer using Natashas.

What our folks need to do is be more vigilant. We need to grow up and smell the coffee.

And there's no need to mollycoddle the Russians and become hyper defensive about them here, IMVHO of course.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sanku » 15 Apr 2010 16:32

amit wrote:
Even assuming the our good Commodore is a techno gadget freak and loves to take photographs of himself, I think it's a bit hard to take still pictures (note nobody has been talking about video) while being rather strenuously engaged in other more interesting pursuits? And even assuming that he's a man of incredible dexterity and multi-tasking ability and does indeed take the pictures, the moment he returns, voila, the pictures fall into the hands of his friends?

No wonder you're such a good writer Sanku Bhai, lots of imagination. :)


Nothing of the sort Amit, I would just say that you havent, shall we say "fully explored" all the knowledge that is available. Quite a lot of it on the internet itself.

Meanwhile again you are making some assumptions here

You yourself in an earlier post correctly pointed out that the GoI has said prima facie the Commodore's actions seems to have had no bearing on the price negotiations - meaning that he was not in a position to influence the deal. Hence isn't it reasonable to assume that he isn't high enough in the pecking order to have been worth the effort for a foreign intelligence agency to try and trap him.


He was not in a position to influence the PNC, how does that mean that he was not worth the effort to be trapped by a external agency.

A whole bunch of much smaller fries are trapped for a whole bunch of reasons, including minor data points, a lot of examples can be given.

No Sir, I would say that in this case you are the one displaying imagination, by far, I am only talking about simple facts which are known to have happened.

-----------

Meanwhile check out Indo_Russia thread in the strat forum, I was the first person on the board to say that it may be Russians trying to play nasty (what Austin has said now) shortly after the story broke.
:P

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby amit » 15 Apr 2010 16:36

Sanku wrote:Not at all. Normal people do that all the time.

And even if photographs were taken, it does not mean that either party was aware of it.

Too much jumping to conclusions.


Sorry Sanku,

If what I'm deducting is jumping to conclusions. Then I'm afraid your point: Normal people do that all the time (that is take photographs of themselves during such times) is just as much a jumping to conclusions.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby amit » 15 Apr 2010 16:39

Sanku wrote:Nothing of the sort Amit, I would just say that you havent, shall we say "fully explored" all the knowledge that is available. Quite a lot of it on the internet itself.


Aha Sanku,

Can we say, yet again, that you are jumping to conclusions and making assumptions about others that perhaps you should not?

Anyway, I don't have the time to pursue this further with you, so let's just agree to disagree on this point.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sanku » 15 Apr 2010 16:41

amit wrote:
Sanku wrote:Not at all. Normal people do that all the time.

And even if photographs were taken, it does not mean that either party was aware of it.

Too much jumping to conclusions.


Sorry Sanku,

If what I'm deducting is jumping to conclusions. Then I'm afraid your point: Normal people do that all the time (that is take photographs of themselves during such times) is just as much a jumping to conclusions.


As I said, I would attribute it to lack of knowledge (with all due respect). Why do you think movies like LSD get made. :lol:

Spend some time looking on the internet. You will be surprised. :lol:

------------------------

I saw you later posts, if you have indeed seen the net, you would be aware that the net is full of such stuff. Not videos alone but photos too.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shukla » 15 Apr 2010 17:12

IN to assume maritime security.. to be responsible for Coast guard as well!

Govt designates Indian Navy responsible for maritime security

The Government has designated the Indian Navy as the agency responsible for overall maritime security, including coastal security of the country, the Lok Sabha was informed today.

The Indian Navy, the Coast Guards, State Marine Police and other Central and State agencies work in coordination for the coastal security and to deal with threats of vulnerable targets, Union Petroleum and Natural Gas Minister Murli Deora said in a written reply.

He said the measures instituted in this regard include enhanced surface and air surveillance along with coastal exercises by Indian Navy ships and aircraft along the coast and in all offshore development areas, including those on the east coast of India.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 15 Apr 2010 21:26

SNaik wrote:
Kersi D wrote:[quote="shanksinha
It is possible that the difference may be only in software in which case it is probably impossible to know for the pics.

Now I think of it. Is it possible that the failed Shtil trial were due to the new missile being used ?

K


Missiles can be used on Delhi, but the range will be limited by older version of Orekh target illuminating radars. Problems with Shtil on Talwars were caused by electro-magnetic interference between Shtil and Indian/Western equipment installed.


Does that mean the Talwar and Shivalik use different 'Orekh' radars ?

K

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 15 Apr 2010 21:35

Austin wrote:It is possible that it was done by the Russian Intelligence to trap the good Commodore for his service in Gorshkov negotiation and when the Commodore refused to budge in , the Russian to discredit him must have passed it on to Indian Naval Intelligence.


To me this seemes the most likely.

Don't forget Russians are famous for their long term moles. They may keep the pics and then blackmail the "gentleman" when he is an Admiral !!

K

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 15 Apr 2010 21:52

amit wrote:
Philip,
.............. But that does not mean that this was just one honest fling by the Commodore........



My wife wants to know what is an honest fling ? :evil: :twisted: :evil: :twisted:

I want to know what is a dishonest fling. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

K

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 15 Apr 2010 21:54

Why blame my poor Natasha and my other innocent Red friends ?

Northrop had played this trick on Saudi Arabia, way back in 1960s. That's how Royal Saudi Air Force got F 5s !!!!!!

K

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby negi » 15 Apr 2010 21:59

I am afraid all these are CTs without any circumstantial evidence , there can be 'n' possibilities behind this I wonder what makes people think it is the RU lobby specially when it will only get them in trouble when it comes to future deals with the MoD.
In any case truth will come out during the proceedings before the court of inquiry , such things move at a fast pace as far as services are concerned .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby putnanja » 15 Apr 2010 22:00

remember that the photos were forwarded to IN by the intelligence department. Maybe the RAW operative noticed the commodore flirting with the lady in question, and managed to take photos. We don't know if the Russians took the photos and sent it to IN, which is highly unlikely. The other question then is, did any other "friendly" countries, say US or UK took the snaps and publicize it?

What does Russia gain by leaking the photos ? Just bad press that it tried unethical means! But if someone else took the snaps, then the full facts will come out as the IN launches an in depth investigation into the officer's conduct

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 16 Apr 2010 13:07

Kersi,an "honest fling" is when your wife tells you to have a good time (generally discreetly) and turns a blind eye to your philandering.A "dishonest fling" is when you have a good time without her permission! These days partners are more liberal and from the pages of the press each day,we are regaled with affairs of the heart and affairs of commerce!

The reason why I posted the other Russian scandals in recent times is because they were exposed,or seem to have been exposed by the sleaze operators.Stories are legion,even in this country (not to mention a certain swami recently),where hotels have secretly taped their guests in action and then blackmailed them,or sold them to the local DVD pirates.If a well known foreigner or celebrity gets caught,then its bonanza time for the culprits.In the case of the cavalier commodore,it appears to me to be more of a vendetta,of someone getting their own back at him for reasons best known to both parties.

I was once told about an MEA delegation which went to Manila.One of the top diplomats was woken up late night by loud knocking on his door and the voice of a hotel employee demanding..."do you have a woman in your room?" The frightened envoy stammered and said,"no..no...no",whereupon the voice told him,"OK,then open up,here's one for you!"

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 16 Apr 2010 20:49

Philip wrote:Kersi,an "honest fling" is when your wife tells you to have a good time (generally discreetly) and turns a blind eye to your philandering.A "dishonest fling" is when you have a good time without her permission!


I AM NOT THAT LUCKY !!!!!

K

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Anoop. A. » 16 Apr 2010 21:17

Kersi D wrote:
Philip wrote:Kersi,an "honest fling" is when your wife tells you to have a good time (generally discreetly) and turns a blind eye to your philandering.A "dishonest fling" is when you have a good time without her permission!


I AM NOT THAT LUCKY !!!!!

K


Not many are...
lol :D

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 16 Apr 2010 21:21

its said to be fairly common and acceptable in elite rich section of society. people are more willing to experiment in that segment and have the money to buy silence and co-operation. there are also compulsions like trophy wives unwilling to give up their
luxurious lifestyle 'just' over that issue. philanderers generally tend to make up for
emotional lack of connect by lavishing even more material comforts to keep up appearances in society.

Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 16 Apr 2010 22:17

Kersi D wrote:To me this seemes the most likely.

Don't forget Russians are famous for their long term moles. They may keep the pics and then blackmail the "gentleman" when he is an Admiral !!

K


very true , its also a good opportunity to get acquainted with Jr officers who have long career in navy and get to know them up close and personal , in the future these very people will be key decision maker in IN and indeed Russian Intel are very aggressive in doing their task , but do they follow the same approach with friendly countries like India is perhaps unknown .

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 16 Apr 2010 23:37

Kersi D wrote:Why blame my poor Natasha and my other innocent Red friends ?

Northrop had played this trick on Saudi Arabia, way back in 1960s. That's how Royal Saudi Air Force got F 5s !!!!!!

K


maybe DRDO, ADA, HAL need to pick a leaf from the Russians and Americans and start offering escorts and Green Labels to high ranking military officials ? And fully paid luxury trips to firangi lands too. Then we might see more of our indigenous products finding their way through..

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 16 Apr 2010 23:45

Kartik wrote:
Kersi D wrote:Why blame my poor Natasha and my other innocent Red friends ?

Northrop had played this trick on Saudi Arabia, way back in 1960s. That's how Royal Saudi Air Force got F 5s !!!!!!

K


maybe DRDO, ADA, HAL need to pick a leaf from the Russians and Americans and start offering escorts and Green Labels to high ranking military officials ? And fully paid luxury trips to firangi lands too. Then we might see more of our indigenous products finding their way through..


Green Label !!! I would not buy a rubber catapult form soembody who offers me Green Label.

I want Blue Label. Remember Tehelka !!!

K

PS My favourite is Chivas Regal. And my birthday is a couple of weeks away. So any one is welcome with a Chivas Regal or Blue Label or something suitable

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Bheem » 16 Apr 2010 23:53

I think it is a fair deal. A blue label for "PSU label" or "JV Label" to push foreign maal in India without tender

ramana
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ramana » 17 Apr 2010 01:14

Is Mr. A.K. Anthony going to cancel the aircraft carrier contract to keep his reputation clean after this revelations?

Knives are out for the Navy in Congressi papers like Telegraph

http://www.telegraphindia.com/1100416/j ... 344802.jsp

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby anjan » 17 Apr 2010 01:34

Kartik wrote:maybe DRDO, ADA, HAL need to pick a leaf from the Russians and Americans and start offering escorts and Green Labels to high ranking military officials ? And fully paid luxury trips to firangi lands too. Then we might see more of our indigenous products finding their way through..


I do believe this is unnecessary character assassination. Where Indian equipment is rejected I do think quality is the prime concern. These folks have to operate said equipment, take it to war and trust their lives to it. When things are well made the forces do adopt Indian equipment.I don't deny institutional inertia might be one reason for slow adoption in other areas but this kind of calumny is absolutely unhelpful.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kartik » 17 Apr 2010 02:05

anjan wrote:I do believe this is unnecessary character assassination. Where Indian equipment is rejected I do think quality is the prime concern. These folks have to operate said equipment, take it to war and trust their lives to it. When things are well made the forces do adopt Indian equipment.I don't deny institutional inertia might be one reason for slow adoption in other areas but this kind of calumny is absolutely unhelpful.


character assasination ? really ? as if we've not known before this IN episode about the Russian arms mafia, natashas and and how kickbacks influence deals. you'd be kidding yourself if you thought that all the men who evaluate equipment in India are blooming angels. the biggest drawback of the Indian indigenous industry is that they cannot offer the Armed forces top echelon anything in terms of money, escorts, foreign trips and plum jobs after-retirement.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby hailinfreq » 17 Apr 2010 03:04

very true , its also a good opportunity to get acquainted with Jr officers who have long career in navy and get to know them up close and personal , in the future these very people will be key decision maker in IN and indeed Russian Intel are very aggressive in doing their task , but do they follow the same approach with friendly countries like India is perhaps unknown .


The Soviet Union's KGB followed a very aggressive approach to India. So it would be reasonable to assume that Russian FSB would be at least somewhat aggressive.

http://books.google.com/books?id=M84O5pYh3rcC&lpg=PP1&dq=Defend%20the%20Realm&pg=PA446#v=snippet&q=model%20of%20KGB%20infiltration%20active%20measures&f=false

(sorry for the clumsy reference link, long time lurker/ noob here)

Tiny URL: http://tinyurl.com/y78uph7
Last edited by SSridhar on 17 Apr 2010 16:54, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Created a tiny URL for you

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby anjan » 17 Apr 2010 03:37

Kartik wrote:character assasination ? really ? as if we've not known before this IN episode about the Russian arms mafia, natashas and and how kickbacks influence deals. you'd be kidding yourself if you thought that all the men who evaluate equipment in India are blooming angels. the biggest drawback of the Indian indigenous industry is that they cannot offer the Armed forces top echelon anything in terms of money, escorts, foreign trips and plum jobs after-retirement.


There is huge gap between "all the men who evaluate equipment in India are blooming angels" to all that ALL the officers evaluating military equipment want are liquor and whores which is what you stated and continue to state. That IS character assassination.

Since we're making assertions without proof or source, I'd say that the reluctance has to do with an indigenous industry with a history of over-promising and under-performing. All institutions have long memories, the armed forces especially so. It's not deeply surprising that they'll take time to warm up to even decent products now. The Dhruv, INSAS and (products of the)IGMDP come to mind as examples of decent products which are inducted in the forces.

As an example Toyota will lose a lot of sales as a result of the recent fiasco even though on an average their cars are probably as safe as any other. When their own neck is on the line people have a troubling habit of caring about a manufacturer's history. It's easy to be detached and pontificate on the need for indegenization to the exclusion of everything else and dismiss everyone else with an opposing viewpoint as being on the take.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby putnanja » 17 Apr 2010 05:00

Proof of liaison, not influence - Navy finds officer’s link with lady

New Delhi, April 16: An investigation by naval headquarters into the role of one of its officers in Russia has found evidence that his conduct “was unbecoming of an officer” because of his relations with a woman.

But the investigation is yet to establish whether his conduct influenced the re-negotiation of the contract for the aged Russian aircraft carrier, Admiral Gorshkov, for which India has agreed to pay $2.33 billion.
...
...
Besides, this particular officer is a married man with a family and was commanding a detachment in Russia from 2005 to 2007, and his conduct would have set a bad example.

The source said the investigation “is in two parts, of which one part is complete”. The second part is looking into whether the commodore was influenced by the Russians through the woman to use his position and shape the re-negotiation of the Gorshkov contract.
...
...
The investigation was ordered after a CD with photographs of the commodore with women — one woman occurs repeatedly in the photographs — and a complaint was delivered to the naval headquarters anonymously. The officer is now posted in the headquarters’ directorate-general of quality assurance.


The navy is still investigating to see if his affair influenced the final price. So that part isn't proven yet, nor the affiliation of the woman with any agency/company.

Hmm, hands of other foreign intelligence too cannot be ruled out, given that anonymous CDs are being sent!


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