Indian Naval Discussion

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Willy
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Willy » 19 Apr 2010 16:59

Give private players like L&T a chance. They can get the required foreign expertise.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 19 Apr 2010 17:33

No earth shattering design here.Barak on either side of the hangar,can't make out whether the helo is a large one or an ALH sized helo.It would make sense if the hangar can accomodate a Sea King sized helo.There might be two gatlings on either corner of the hangar,TTs are abaft each beam,can't make out whether they're twin tubes or triple tubes,MBUs and a 76mm main gum,Otomelara from its looks.The big Q is whether there is provision/space for anti-ship missiles.It looks possible as there is space betweeh the stack and the hangar and the mainmast.I'm sure more details will follow shortly and we may be proved wrong on some counts!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Gagan » 19 Apr 2010 17:46

Willy wrote:Give private players like L&T a chance. They can get the required foreign expertise.


That private player L&T already built the Arihant and the Dhanush missile launch stabilizer for the Navy.

Another private player Godrej already builds the PSLV and the GSLV and the cryogenic engines for the GSLV.

The point is not that the armed forces or the Government doesn't realize that the private players are really really good, the point is that the Government owns the PSUs and the employees therein are government employees with unions that are politicized.

GoI therefore has to keep those PSUs out of the red, and give them orders whatever their performance level is. The PSUs are all about providing employment to people, they are not about quality and efficiency - that comes in as an afterthought mostly.

Bottom line: If you or I were sitting in the government, our decisions perhaps might not be much different from the incumbents who occupy the hot seat now.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby gogna » 19 Apr 2010 19:31

Launching of first Anti-Submarine Warfare Corvette
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_D-KXdMmfrlk/S ... rvette.png
Times Of India

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby putnanja » 19 Apr 2010 20:00

LiveFist has some photos of ASW Corvette launch today!

PHOTOS: India's First Project-28 ASW Corvette "Kamorta" Launched at Kolkata

Image


Image
Last edited by putnanja on 19 Apr 2010 20:20, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Apr 2010 20:07

its a fairly small ship and unlikely to need ASM. reason being when operating in our
areas, its main threat is torpedos and sub/air launched ASMs. when operating near
hostile shores, there will atleast be FFGs to provide ASM shots.

its better to use the ASM space if any for more HWT or some anti torpedo/anti-ASM decoy stuff.

it needs the best sonar (hull mounted and towed) we can provide and the best of
machinery quieting technology and sub hunting consoles. would have been good to
accomodate 2 x SH60B sized helis but one cannot have everything.

it cannot be denied we need 40 such ships to sanitize our operating areas and sea
lanes against lurking submarines, freeing up FFG+ ships in the offensive role.

some provision for a dock in the back to unleash a remote control LCAC armed with
torpedoes and active sonar in shallow water or a tail chase situation would be scary good.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 19 Apr 2010 22:01

Singha wrote:
it cannot be denied we need 40 such ships to sanitize our operating areas and sea
lanes against lurking submarines, freeing up FFG+ ships in the offensive role.

Its larger than the OPVs and price tag itself has swollen to 200 mill+ per vessel so its unlikely IN would be able to even build the 12 it originally planned for let alone 40.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 20 Apr 2010 03:32


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 20 Apr 2010 05:52


Indian Navy's Stealth Destroyer

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arun » 20 Apr 2010 07:32

A more side on picture of the P-28 ASW Corvette Kamorta which nicely shows off her sculpted beauty:

PTI via Outlook

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Austin » 20 Apr 2010 08:44

Quite a fantastic looking ship and the build quality of GRSE is quite amazing I am quite impressed , it will help me erase the bad memory I had when I saw the P-16A build quality.

Now this ship focuses primarily on ASW , but it would be great if it could add 8 small but long reach Kh-35UE AshM

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shalav » 20 Apr 2010 10:45

Beautiful lines!

The IN seems to be getting better and better at producing lethally good looking ships as it gains experience.

Aside from that one should note that @ ~2,500-3,000 tonnes this ship is in the weight class of a small frigate - even though the navy insists on calling it a corvette! At almost twice the length of the Tarantul class and weighing in at a 1,000 tonnes more, the Kamorta class corvettes of the IN are in the same weight category as the future frontline FFs being inducted by pakistan.

Singha is right we need at-least 40 vessels of this class in order to maintain 30 on station at anytime to sanitize the home waters. Armed with 6 VL Klubs it is capable enough against the anemic opposition of navies home-ported in our neighbourhood. Leaving the more capable and lethal FFs and DDs free to do their thing as required.

Maybe they should split the production into half and half - 50% ASW armed and 50% AShW armed? As modern vessels go this is one of the cheaper ones available anywhere in the world given its projected capabilities. I hope the IN too thinks this class can form the backbone of its home fleet!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby David Siegel » 20 Apr 2010 10:58

Anyone has any idea about the Weapon Package of this AShw platform? I mean apart from std Anti-Sub weapon like torpedos, depth charge or Anti-sub Rockets does it carry anything that add a new diamension to Ashw capability of IN?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 20 Apr 2010 11:01

David,yes we do have a new secret ASW wepaon,read on! Leafing through the media reports of the first P-28 launch,I came across this gem in one report.Believe it or not,but we have a deadly new ASW weapon system which no other nation has.Apart from the "IRLs" (ASW rocket launchers),gatlings,VLS point defence missiles,rapid fire gun,etc.,we also have......"scutter launchers".What it be? It sure must be making the Porkis very worried. I can only guess that the poor reporter when told that the corvette also possessed a "cutter and launch" thought it to be a new weapon system!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Shalav » 20 Apr 2010 11:04

David its designated as an ASW platform not AShW platform.

IIRC it will also be armed with 8 VL Klubs - so there's its AShW capability.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby David Siegel » 20 Apr 2010 11:05

Philip wrote:David,yes we do have a new secret ASW wepaon,read on! Leafing through the media reports of the first P-28 launch,I came across this gem in one report.Believe it or not,but we have a deadly new ASW weapon system which no other nation has.Apart from the "IRLs" (ASW rocket launchers),gatlings,VLS point defence missiles,rapid fire gun,etc.,we also have......"scutter launchers".What it be? It sure must be making the Porkis very worried. I can only guess that the poor reporter when told that the corvette also possessed a "cutter and launch" thought it to be a new weapon system!

:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby David Siegel » 20 Apr 2010 11:09

Shalav wrote:David its designated as an ASW platform not AShW platform.

IIRC it will also be armed with 8 VL Klubs - so there's its AShW capability.


My Bad. I meant ASW weapon. Any idea if there is any special anti-sub package for this lady?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 20 Apr 2010 11:17

hopefully the ASW version of Klub could be fitted in somewhere - probably in inclined
tubes amidships?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 20 Apr 2010 11:38

What would make this warship very potent is if it was indeed also equipped with Klubs,8 of them ( in the space between the stack and hangar amidships),which could consist of both the anti-ship and anti-sub versions.The hangar structure whose width extends upto the ship's sides,appears large enough to accomodate a Sea King sized ASW/MR helo.Such a large multi-role helo could also carry anti-ship missiles like the air launched KH-35 Urans.What has not been mentioned is whether the vessel has a VDS/TAS apart from its bow mounted sonar which does not appear to be a very large one.Can't make out if there is also a hull mounted one from the pics.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Neshant » 20 Apr 2010 11:42

what a beauty

the ability to launch a few fire scout type indegenously developed UAVs from there for anti-sub and recon would give it a huge boost.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby D Roy » 20 Apr 2010 13:36

Isn't Scutter a torpedo decoy system?

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 20 Apr 2010 13:42

By Jove Roy,you're right! The fact that it is also of Israeli origin perhaps indicates that this decoy system is also aboard.

http://www.janes.com/articles/Janes-Und ... srael.html

Excerpt:
Description
Scutter is a self-propelled expendable torpedo decoy designed to respond to two different types of torpedo simultaneously and against the threat from acoustic homing active and/or passive torpedo threats. On receipt of a torpedo alert, Scutter is launched from any standard submarine internal signal ejector or external hull-mounted launcher. System operation is automatically initiated after launch and the decoy listens for torpedo transmissions. It then propels itself automatically to a depth between 10 and 300 m.Active acoustic torpedo transmissions detected are analysed and the decoy selects and generates the appropriate deception signals for transmission, including simulation of Doppler effect and noise radiated by the launch platform. This allows the launch platform to perform evasive manoeuvres. If no torpedo transmissions are detected, Scutter incorporates generic responses which are transmitted to counter passive homing weapons. The decoy's computer 'library' contains threat correlations and threat identification and its programs provide tailored responses to defeat various logics incorporated in a modern torpedo, such as range gates, Doppler shifts and target discrimination. The decoy can be programmed for specific known threat characteristics.The decoy can operate for 5-10 minutes at depths down to 300 m providing 360° coverage. The decoy self-destructs and sinks on completion of the mission thus preventing retrieval by hostile forces.The decoy's hydrodynamically-shaped body is manufactured from composite materials which house the acoustic transducer, electronic boards, thermal batteries, electric motor, propeller and an external waterproof test connector. The propeller is mounted on the nose of Scutter to maintain stability and attitude.


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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby arun » 20 Apr 2010 13:57


Anujan
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Anujan » 20 Apr 2010 17:44

Austin wrote:Our ASW corvette (P-28 ) looks similar to the model shown between two bald guys


Missed that one, was fixated on the bigger picture :oops:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby RKumar » 20 Apr 2010 17:47

Austin wrote:
Anujan wrote:^^^

The first picture looks suspiciously like INS Shardul? Doesnt our ASW Corvette look different?


Our ASW corvette (P-28 ) looks similar to the model shown between two bald guys


:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby shukla » 20 Apr 2010 19:04

Navy alert on West coast as suspicious boat goes untraced

A search operation by the Indian Navy and Coast Guard for a suspicious boat that was apparently sighted by fishermen off Diu coast, did not yield results but surveillance has been enhanced along the west coast, a navy official said. The navy and security agencies on March 29 received an information from fishermen that they spotted a boat with the name 'Al Salam' and bearing a certain registration number, triggering fears that terrorists could be aboard it and planning strikes like 26/11.

Fishermen in Diu informed security agencies that they had seen a white boat with 'Al-Salam' written on it near the Diu coast. There were five persons on board and were asking for directions from them. "Soon after the information was shared with us, a massive search operation was carried out day and night. Till now, no suspicious boat was found. We have enquired the fishermen who made such claims. So far, we have not come across any such boat," the navy official said. "We cannot say the search operation is on now but the surveillance along the coast has been enhanced. We are coordinating with coast guard and policemen for various inputs," the official added.

Fishermen in sea were also asked to be on alert and provide them information if they find any such boat again, the official said. Authorities are taking no chances over the information considering the fact that 10 Pakistanis, who attacked Mumbai on November 26, 2008, had used a boat to reach there from Karachi. Vigilance along the 40km long coastline of Mumbai, which witnessed the November 26 terror attacks after 10 terrorists entered the city via the sea route, has also been beefed up. Fifteen Mumbai police-owned boats, including four amphibious boats equipped with advanced technology including GPS, are patrolling the city's waterfront


:roll:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby RKumar » 20 Apr 2010 23:04

BrahMos to be launched from underwater platform : Defence Minister A K Antony

sources close to IDRW ,have said that Ins Arihant India’s first nuclear submarine which has been doing sea trials may become the first Submarine which will be used for integrating BrahMos cruise missile .


If it is a true news ...then it is a great one...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby putnanja » 21 Apr 2010 01:09

Navy to have air enclave at CIAL

With an eye on its future aviation requirements, the Navy plans to carve out an air enclave on the sprawling campus of the Cochin International Airport Limited (CIAL).

Eleven acres of land adjoining the airport's cargo complex have already been acquired for this purpose.
...
...
The enclave would house maintenance hangars capable of sheltering the Navy's future air assets, especially the medium range maritime reconnaissance aircraft that it is scouting for. The hangars would also have the capacity to provide back-end support to the operation of a squadron from the enclave.

They will also be equipped to back up full-load operation of the long range maritime reconnaissance aircraft, Boeing P8-I, if required. As per the contract that the Navy has signed with Boeing for the purchase of eight P8-I aircraft, the delivery of the first would take place in 2013.
...
...

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 21 Apr 2010 02:25

David Siegel wrote:http://livefist.blogspot.com/2010/04/photo-indian-army-us-marines-conduct.html

Did not like the picture though. Looks like IN Personals' equipments and dresses belong to 20 years old stock compared to that of US Navy personal, let alone the Ship and Subs. :|


Going thru the comments on the blog for this article, went :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

David, now imagine for a moment that in the same pics, the guys in the green camo on the left were US soldiers and guys in the desert camo on the right were Indian soldiers. Then the same junta would go :(( :(( as follows:

1) Why are Indian soldiers not wearing life jackets like the US soldiers. GoI does not care about its soldiers! Look at the US soldiers who are wearing bright yellow life jackets to allow them to be rescued. :(( :((

2) Why are Indian soldiers wearing BPJs. See how ill-trained they are, that they don't know it will drown them :(( :((

3) Why does the Indian soldier in the front have his BPJ and vest hanging loose - what poor training! :(( :((

4) Look at those US soldiers on the left - They are staring at the Indian soldiers and are amazed at their poor preparedness and training :(( :((

5) Why are all the Indian soldiers not wearing helmets - some are, some aren't. See how ill-trained and ill-equipped they are...typical 'Third World Mentality' :(( :((

....get the point? :mrgreen: Whichever way you adopt, there will always be people who go :(( :(( and think the grass on the other side is greener. Such people are usually either clueless or lack self-esteem/confidence or both. And this mentality, unfortunately highly prevalent in case of us SDREs, should be the main reason to :(( :(( about, not why the life jackets of the IA soldiers are yellow.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Prem Kumar » 21 Apr 2010 03:32

RKumar wrote:BrahMos to be launched from underwater platform : Defence Minister A K Antony

sources close to IDRW ,have said that Ins Arihant India’s first nuclear submarine which has been doing sea trials may become the first Submarine which will be used for integrating BrahMos cruise missile .


If it is a true news ...then it is a great one...


I think the Arihant reference is speculative. I am not aware of SSBNs carrying AShMs. There is a much higher chance that the Akula will carry Brahmos.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby David Siegel » 21 Apr 2010 07:57

Raja Bose wrote:....
....get the point? :mrgreen: Whichever way you adopt, there will always be people who go :(( :(( and think the grass on the other side is greener. Such people are usually either clueless or lack self-esteem/confidence or both. And this mentality, unfortunately highly prevalent in case of us SDREs, should be the main reason to :(( :(( about, not why the life jackets of the IA soldiers are yellow.


Nope, it is not a matter of lack of self-esteem or confidence neither I believe that people would have cribbed if the situation got mirror-imaged :roll: - Neverthless, the point made by me is to be taken lightly, no one is doubting the efficiency or preparedness of IN personals (neither daring to compare the war raging efficiency with USSN at the same time).

All I said is that on the snap the IN folks looks like participating with a peer group who are league ahead in technology (And fact is fact)- and this can be made out simply looking at their dress and gears :wink: ..so NOM if any patriotic sentiment was hurt :((

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 21 Apr 2010 11:03

First clear report (thank goodness) on the P-28,which is just above 3,000t,making it as large as a Leander class frigate.Yes,there are "Scutter" anti-torpedo decoys and the Kavach chaff-roc decoy(http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/we ... /add_5.htm).The missing link is the absence of any anti-ship missile.Looking at the design,it would be easy to incorporate a modified version which could carry about 8 Klub missiles,both anti-ship and anti-sub versions.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-launch ... m=trending

Excerpt:
Kolkata/New Delhi: India on Monday launched its first anti-submarine warfare corvette that will boost Navy's fighting capability when commissioned in 2012.

According to officials, the corvette, Yard 3017, was launched by Mamatha M, wife of Minister of State of Defence M M Pallam Raju, at the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) in Kolkata.

"Four ships of this class are under construction at GRSE, Kolkata. The first ship is expected to be commissioned by mid-2012 and will be closely followed by the other three ships with the last expected to be commissioned by early 2015," a naval official said.

The corvette, a small fast-moving ship, was ordered in 2003 and the production is delayed by two years.
The official said the 3,100-tonnage ship would be fitted with the latest indigenously developed sonars to detect submarines.

"The torpedo tubes, and scutter (torpedo decoys) launchers contribute to its anti-submarine punch. In addition, the ship will also be equipped with vertically launched Point Defence Missile System (PDMS) and Close In Weapon Systems (CIWS) such as AK 30's and Super Rapid Gun Mount (SRGM)," the official added.

"The ship is also equipped with decoy system Kavach, which is designed to counter the threat of various anti-ship missiles," he said.


Further to what David has said,I have had the privilige of knowing over the years many fine IN officers at all levels,including a few Chiefs,etc.,who explained in detail to me how they "built" up the IN step by step.The difference between the IN and the other two branches is that for decades,the IN was considerted the "Cinderella" of the services,with the smallest budget of all and having to meet enormous responsibilities with meagre funds.One veteran of the old Delhi (HMS Achiilies of River Plate fame),told me that the biggest difference he saw between the old and new IN was the great improvement in the grub! So these post-Independence officers at the helm of the IN put their thinking caps on to see how they could "build" a new strong and powerful navy despite the long odds against them.

The first great achievement was the local building of Leander class warships.I remember boarding INS Nilgiri shortly after she was commissioned.The pride in every sailor and officer aboard at this success was so evident.The first Leander represented the rebirth of India's great shipbuilding tradition,which was legendary for thousands of years.The IN's ingenuity saw the last two Leanders operate a Sea King ASW helo,the first time in any navy operating such size of frigate.We must also thank Mrs.Gandhi for this resurgence as she saw far into the future in her plans for India.Then came the defining moment when the IN's shipbuilding design prowess arrived,the "corps of naval constructors" responsible for the Godavari class based upon the Leander design,but with a new hull giving it larger displacement and capability with the same powerplant.The CNS of the time told me how the design ,which had a hangar for two Sea Kings on such a narrow beam,was ridiculed by the RN/Brit yards who said it was "impossible" .The frigate also featured a "cocktail" of western,Russian and Indian eqpt. anmd weapons,another achievement.When the frigates arrived,many experts marvelled at the amount of space available for eqpt.,etc.,the ratio of engine room to the rest of the ship exceptionally low,in comparison with other contemporary designs.The next achievement was building under licence U-209 subs,but the HDW "scandal" and VP Singh put paid to more being built and the Rao years saw a decline in interest in the IN and a drop in its ship and sub-building capabilities.Nevertheless,it later regirded its loins and with steady tenacious steps has today a superb in-house design capability and the ability to effortlessly integrate sensors and eqpt. from both east and west while steadily increasing the quantum of indigenous eqpt.especially radars and sonars.The goal of the IN to be a "builders navy" sharply contrasts with that of the other two services who have had the luxury of imports .It is an amazing achievment that today the IN today is building not only major warships but also the first carrier and along with the DRDO,etc.,has launched a nuclear sub too! With Brahmos ready to be launched from an underwater platform,the "holy grail" of India developing and operating its own SSBNs is not too far off and the IN must be given the major credit for making this possible.Surely a signal lesson to be learnt by the IAF and IA who if they adopt the same attituide can do wonders for India's indigenous defence industry and our security.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Sanku » 21 Apr 2010 11:50

David Siegel wrote:All I said is that on the snap the IN folks looks like participating with a peer group who are league ahead in technology (And fact is fact)- and this can be made out simply looking at their dress and gears :wink: ..so NOM if any patriotic sentiment was hurt :((


Dont mind Bose babu David, BRF has tons of really experienced photo analysis experts who can understand the details of technology by just looking at the pictures. You are in good company.

In fact forget the tech levels, people can calculate the sigma of the manufacturing process by a single photograph.
:P

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby David Siegel » 21 Apr 2010 12:46

Sanku wrote:In fact forget the tech levels, people can calculate the sigma of the manufacturing process by a single photograph.
:P


Arrrrrm !!! That was like droping 2x2000 lb JDAM on tin roofed bunker. :eek: Phew !! :twisted:

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 21 Apr 2010 14:17

Philip wrote:First clear report (thank goodness) on the P-28,which is just above 3,000t,making it as large as a Leander class frigate.Yes,there are "Scutter" anti-torpedo decoys and the Kavach chaff-roc decoy(http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/we ... /add_5.htm).The missing link is the absence of any anti-ship missile.Looking at the design,it would be easy to incorporate a modified version which could carry about 8 Klub missiles,both anti-ship and anti-sub versions.

http://ibnlive.in.com/news/india-launch ... m=trending

Excerpt:
Kolkata/New Delhi: India on Monday launched its first anti-submarine warfare corvette that will boost Navy's fighting capability when commissioned in 2012.

According to officials, the corvette, Yard 3017, was launched by Mamatha M, wife of Minister of State of Defence M M Pallam Raju, at the Garden Reach Shipbuilders and Engineers (GRSE) in Kolkata.

"Four ships of this class are under construction at GRSE, Kolkata. The first ship is expected to be commissioned by mid-2012 and will be closely followed by the other three ships with the last expected to be commissioned by early 2015," a naval official said.

The corvette, a small fast-moving ship, was ordered in 2003 and the production is delayed by two years.
The official said the 3,100-tonnage ship would be fitted with the latest indigenously developed sonars to detect submarines.

"The torpedo tubes, and scutter (torpedo decoys) launchers contribute to its anti-submarine punch. In addition, the ship will also be equipped with vertically launched Point Defence Missile System (PDMS) and Close In Weapon Systems (CIWS) such as AK 30's and Super Rapid Gun Mount (SRGM)," the official added.

"The ship is also equipped with decoy system Kavach, which is designed to counter the threat of various anti-ship missiles," he said.


Further to what David has said,I have had the privilige of knowing over the years many fine IN officers at all levels,including a few Chiefs,etc.,who explained in detail to me how they "built" up the IN step by step.The difference between the IN and the other two branches is that for decades,the IN was considerted the "Cinderella" of the services,with the smallest budget of all and having to meet enormous responsibilities with meagre funds.One veteran of the old Delhi (HMS Achiilies of River Plate fame),told me that the biggest difference he saw between the old and new IN was the great improvement in the grub! So these post-Independence officers at the helm of the IN put their thinking caps on to see how they could "build" a new strong and powerful navy despite the long odds against them.

The first great achievement was the local building of Leander class warships.I remember boarding INS Nilgiri shortly after she was commissioned.The pride in every sailor and officer aboard at this success was so evident.The first Leander represented the rebirth of India's great shipbuilding tradition,which was legendary for thousands of years.The IN's ingenuity saw the last two Leanders operate a Sea King ASW helo,the first time in any navy operating such size of frigate.We must also thank Mrs.Gandhi for this resurgence as she saw far into the future in her plans for India.Then came the defining moment when the IN's shipbuilding design prowess arrived,the "corps of naval constructors" responsible for the Godavari class based upon the Leander design,but with a new hull giving it larger displacement and capability with the same powerplant.The CNS of the time told me how the design ,which had a hangar for two Sea Kings on such a narrow beam,was ridiculed by the RN/Brit yards who said it was "impossible" .The frigate also featured a "cocktail" of western,Russian and Indian eqpt. anmd weapons,another achievement.When the frigates arrived,many experts marvelled at the amount of space available for eqpt.,etc.,the ratio of engine room to the rest of the ship exceptionally low,in comparison with other contemporary designs.The next achievement was building under licence U-209 subs,but the HDW "scandal" and VP Singh put paid to more being built and the Rao years saw a decline in interest in the IN and a drop in its ship and sub-building capabilities.Nevertheless,it later regirded its loins and with steady tenacious steps has today a superb in-house design capability and the ability to effortlessly integrate sensors and eqpt. from both east and west while steadily increasing the quantum of indigenous eqpt.especially radars and sonars.The goal of the IN to be a "builders navy" sharply contrasts with that of the other two services who have had the luxury of imports .It is an amazing achievment that today the IN today is building not only major warships but also the first carrier and along with the DRDO,etc.,has launched a nuclear sub too! With Brahmos ready to be launched from an underwater platform,the "holy grail" of India developing and operating its own SSBNs is not too far off and the IN must be given the major credit for making this possible.Surely a signal lesson to be learnt by the IAF and IA who if they adopt the same attituide can do wonders for India's indigenous defence industry and our security.


Nice Summary

K

Kersi D
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 21 Apr 2010 14:29

Willy wrote:Give private players like L&T a chance. They can get the required foreign expertise.


No shipyard, private or public, L&T or Adani or Tata or Reliance or %#$%^^ can start building high quality state of art vessels form day one. It is an expertise that has to be developed over a period of time. If any newcomer starts today maybe it will be able to build top of the line vessels after say 5- 10 - 15 years.

And what about design ? In general the basic conceptual design is done by DGNP and detailed engineering and preparation of the fabrication drawings are prepared to ultimately build the vessel. Again this takes a finite time to build a team.

All this means that if we start today, then amybe down the line of 5 - 15 years we would achieve an acceptable level of certain competency.

BUT WE HAVE TO START SOMEWHERE, AND START AS SOON AS POSSIBLE, START NOW

K

Kersi D
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 21 Apr 2010 14:37

Gagan wrote:The PSUs are all about providing employment to people, they are not about quality and efficiency - that comes in as an afterthought mostly.


WRONG

The PSUs are all about providing employment to people.

Production, time schedules, quality, efficiency are just a by-product of the system

K

John
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby John » 21 Apr 2010 21:07

Philip wrote:First clear report (thank goodness) on the P-28,which is just above 3,000t,making it as large as a Leander class frigate.Yes,there are "Scutter" anti-torpedo decoys and the Kavach chaff-roc decoy(http://ofbindia.gov.in/products/data/we ... /add_5.htm).The missing link is the absence of any anti-ship missile.Looking at the design,it would be easy to incorporate a modified version which could carry about 8 Klub missiles,both anti-ship and anti-sub versions.

You have keep in mind P-28s were originally intended to be cheap and make up for shortfall in numbers from reduction/delays in P-17 program. With changes to incorporate radar reduction the prices have gone up considerably and cost about 1.5 billion for 4 ships. Yes the design is nice but it plenty of shortfalls and for that price i would much rather procure more P-17s/Talwar.

As for Klub i do not think it is possible to insert 8 cell launcher in P-28 given the current design.

Brahmananda
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Brahmananda » 21 Apr 2010 21:26

guys the p-28 can launch 8 Klub missiles very quickly? but how many do they carry on board? can some one give me some info as to how many such Klub/ Brahmos missiles are carried on board our frigates, destroyers at any given point.

Tanaji
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Tanaji » 21 Apr 2010 21:28

can some one give me some info as to how many such Klub/ Brahmos missiles are carried on board our frigates, destroyers at any given point.


:eek:


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