Indian Naval Discussion

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Craig Alpert
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Craig Alpert »

THE MEDIA is a JOKE!!!!

FALSE ALLEGATIONS
When I last spoke to my friend, schoolmate, NDA-mate and fellow-officer, Rear Admiral Satyendra Singh Jamwal, there wasn’t the smallest inkling of the terrible tragedy that lay just ahead. “Jammy”, as he was called in the navy --- or “Tiri” as he was nicknamed by the boys (and girls) at the Lawrence School Sanawar, near Simla --- had rung me up from Kochi to invite me to give his officers a talk on China, a subject that I am co-authoring a book on.

Jammy was his usual cheerful, upbeat self. “Our naval officers have no choice but to be strategic thinkers and I will do what I can to make that happen”, he boomed. There was no way I could say anything but, “finalise the dates and tell me when to come.”

Fate, alas, has ruled out that meeting. For me, the end is more than just professional regret at seeing a future naval chief snatched away by the unstoppable hand of death. For me, this is the shocking end of an association with a slim, small, utterly decent young boy who went on to become a 6 foot, 4 inch bodybuilding champ and professional star in that most demanding of Indian institutions: the military.

That Rear Admiral SS Jamwal was a potential navy chief is, to anyone who knows the Indian Navy, hardly a revelation. Not because he was the ADC to the President; that is a purely decorative job that, given his film star looks, was hardly an accomplishment. But when he was selected to oversee the completion of INS Beas, and to be its commissioning CO, it was clear that Jammy had made a mark as the Executive Officer of the INS Delhi. And, as Naval Attache to Moscow, Jammy left his imprimatur as pointsman during the most contentious phase of the Gorshkov negotiations and the nuclear submarine negotiations.

We talked often over the phone while he was in Moscow and always had a meal together when he travelled to India. Given the man he was, we never ever spoke about the top-secret negotiations that he handled through those years. He was too committed a professional to reveal any secrets and I was too good a friend to pose any dilemmas for him.

I also had the pleasure of hosting his lovely wife, Geeta --- together they made the most striking couple you could imagine. They were always close, shared many interests and were enormously proud of each other and of their two lovely children.

To suggest --- as many newspapers and TV channels are obliquely doing, without the slightest proof --- that Admiral Jamwal had committed suicide is an indicator of how low India’s media has sunk. True, the police have registered a case of “unnatural death”. What else was the media expecting in a death in a range accident?

It is regrettable that we have plumbed such depths that the feelings of a bereaved family --- you can imagine their emotions when they see today’s newspapers --- are not as important as an “interesting” headline.

We were fortunate --- those of us who knew Rear Admiral Satyendra Singh Jamwal as schoolmates in The Lawrence School, Sanawar; brothers-in-arms in the National Defence Academy and the military; and those of us who knew Jammy as a friend or a much-loved relative --- to have benefited from his warmth, honesty and cheerful good nature.

On behalf of all of them, I pray for everlasting peace to his soul.


R.I.P.- SHOOK LAW
sawant
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sawant »

The US modified Ohio class subs to carry 154 tomahawks at billions of $$ .. wonder if it wud be cheaper for us to follow that idea and have dedicated subs with Brahmos etc...

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article ... 78,00.html
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Philip »

Our keystone cops and their vivid imagination! should make them excellent scritpwriters for Bollywood or in this case Coconutwood.What a sorry bunch of "coconuts"!
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

Austin
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

Rahul M wrote:I agree that the 3 on the ground look more SDRE than TFVD but the lack of heavy woolen clothing makes that unlikely ?
It may be cold out there but its certainly not freezing cold , looking at the mild current of water it looks like slightly windy , it may be SOP for the sailors to wear those lifejacket over black overcoat , the one guy on top of the sail is wearing none of these just the blue apparel , our sailors out there looks more curious to see the sub looks like a chance encounter

What is TFVD ?
ticky
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by ticky »

Austin wrote: What is TFVD ?
Hazarding a guess, Tall Fair Vodka Drinker :D
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Kanson »

Austin wrote:
Rahul M wrote:I agree that the 3 on the ground look more SDRE than TFVD but the lack of heavy woolen clothing makes that unlikely ?
It may be cold out there but its certainly not freezing cold , looking at the mild current of water it looks like slightly windy , it may be SOP for the sailors to wear those lifejacket over black overcoat , the one guy on top of the sail is wearing none of these just the blue apparel , our sailors out there looks more curious to see the sub looks like a chance encounter

What is TFVD ?
They wore a different uniform than the sailors aboard. Misleading SRDE look may be due to the haircut ? You cant mistake a Russian for Indian even thou' he could be the fairest of us....
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chetak »

rajkumar wrote:

Not unheard off. One of my friends almost shot the range officer with a similar fault. The bullet missed the range officers head by 5 cm's. Accidents can and do happen.

Given the experience and seniority of the people present at the site of the accident, such a scenario of inspecting the pistol after a miss fire would be unheard of.

They were not rookies on the range for the first time.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by jagang »

anyone who served with Adm jamwal cannot but help being influenced by him.he was a great personality, whom i was lucky to serve under. to even suggest that his sad demise wasnt accidental is an insult to memory of a great soldier. it also aptly displays the apathy of our society towards soldiers. i am reminded of US's dealing of Adm Jeremy Michael Boorda's death. Boorda died May 16, 1996 of an apparently self-inflicted gunshot wound to the chest. The autopsy results were not released to the public. He reportedly also left two suicide notes, neither of which was released publicly, till date. we cannot let the press tarnish the image of a great person.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by rahuls »

TOI says Navy planning 6 more subs for Rs.50,000 cr

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 152862.cms
The Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC), chaired by defence minister A K Antony, has finally decided that three of the six submarines will be constructed at Mazagon Docks (MDL) in Mumbai and one at Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) in Visakhapatnam, with the help of a foreign collaborator.

Under the programme—called Project-75 India (P-75I)—apart from stealth, land-attack capability and the ability to incorporate futuristic technologies, all the six new submarines will be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems to boost their operational capabilities.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Mahesh_R »

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 152862.cms
The selection of the foreign collaborator for P-75I will, of course, take time because a RFP (request for proposal) will first have to be issued to submarine manufacturers like Rosoboronexport (Russian), DCNS/Armaris (French), HDW (German) and Navantia (Spain). Shortlisting and detailed technical and commercial negotiations will follow, before the actual contract can be inked.
There was NO RFP sent to American firms..any reason?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

Austin wrote:
Rahul M wrote:I agree that the 3 on the ground look more SDRE than TFVD but the lack of heavy woolen clothing makes that unlikely ?
It may be cold out there but its certainly not freezing cold , looking at the mild current of water it looks like slightly windy , it may be SOP for the sailors to wear those lifejacket over black overcoat , the one guy on top of the sail is wearing none of these just the blue apparel , our sailors out there looks more curious to see the sub looks like a chance encounter

What is TFVD ?
from whatever images I've seen and some anecdotes by IN people who have spent time there, it always seems to be freezing cold to SDRE's there even though it might be warm to the russkies. ;)
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by saurav.jha »

rahuls wrote:TOI says Navy planning 6 more subs for Rs.50,000 cr

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Indi ... 152862.cms
The Defence Acquisitions Council (DAC), chaired by defence minister A K Antony, has finally decided that three of the six submarines will be constructed at Mazagon Docks (MDL) in Mumbai and one at Hindustan Shipyard Ltd (HSL) in Visakhapatnam, with the help of a foreign collaborator.

Under the programme—called Project-75 India (P-75I)—apart from stealth, land-attack capability and the ability to incorporate futuristic technologies, all the six new submarines will be equipped with air-independent propulsion (AIP) systems to boost their operational capabilities.
50,000 crore is too much for just 6 subs...i mean it comes more than $1.5 bil. for each sub. What is going on..?
Have we become too RAEES or, what..? in this price we can get 6+6+6 submarines.. :eek:
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by NRao »

Mahesh_R wrote:
There was NO RFP sent to American firms..any reason?
US manufacture only nuclear subs.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sourab_c »

saurav.jha wrote: 50,000 crore is too much for just 6 subs...i mean it comes more than $1.5 bil. for each sub. What is going on..?
Have we become too RAEES or, what..? in this price we can get 6+6+6 submarines.. :eek:

As discussed before, this quote includes infrastructure development costs.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sunilUpa »

The price is in-line with upcoming Aussie program, $15 billion for 12 submarines.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

Now guess who is gona get compensated with a bigger pie for loosing the MMRCA :wink:

The recent Naval Forces has a nice long interview and good details on the Spanish S-80 sub , its a beauty of sub with AIP and long reach and commonality with Scorpene
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by nachiket »

Austin wrote:Now guess who is gona get compensated with a bigger pie for loosing the MMRCA :wink:
Nobody.
The French, Germans and Russkies are all competing for the MRCA as well. We can only compensate one of them even if we wanted to. And what if we buy the Gripen hain? Buy 2 subs each from France, Germany and Russia?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

There is a good change that Amur will win this deal , considering the stupid belief that exist in IN that we need to operate Eastern and Western system
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Singha »

what infra? the selection of mazgaon doc and vizag already gives them a pool of submarine construction trained engineers and workers. creating a couple of new covered drydocks is not that expensive.

this deal should have go to a pvt shipyard and let mazgaon focus on turning out more scorpenes and amortizing the massive cost of the
greenfield infra set up for that.

secondly, we should design and build our own SSK design, albeit importing whatever we dont make like diesel engine and AIP plant rather than just license making a existing design. else we will be forever unable to break the import cycle in submarines. its a much harder
effort but worth it.

even if its 80% of S80/U212 , it will be our own controlled product and teach us a lot. the PLAN went that route with the Song and then Yuan class.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Bihanga »

Singha wrote:what infra? the selection of mazgaon doc and vizag already gives them a pool of submarine construction trained engineers and workers. creating a couple of new covered drydocks is not that expensive.

this deal should have go to a pvt shipyard and let mazgaon focus on turning out more scorpenes and amortizing the massive cost of the
greenfield infra set up for that.

secondly, we should design and build our own SSK design, albeit importing whatever we dont make like diesel engine and AIP plant rather than just license making a existing design. else we will be forever unable to break the import cycle in submarines. its a much harder
effort but worth it.

even if its 80% of S80/U212 , it will be our own controlled product and teach us a lot. the PLAN went that route with the Song and then Yuan class.
Firstly we should create an all new Naval Bases in some other corner of our coastline keeping in mind increasing traffic jam and lower space. Recently we lost very expensive Coast Guard Vessel smashed by Cargo Liner and now just a week back we had a collision of two Submarine which may have turned into very fatal accident.

On the top of that, our Naval Vessel are increasingly getting vulnerable to Terror attack as their close proximity to Commerical Cargo liner and busy traffic created by small fishing boats as well as allowance of tourist boats by letting them coming closing to this vessel. Any Submarines, Aircraft Carrier or Frigate can be easy target in Ports.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by SNaik »

Austin wrote:There is a good change that Amur will win this deal , considering the stupid belief that exist in IN that we need to operate Eastern and Western system
Russian AIP currently exists just as an abandoned experimental shore faciility. Kristal-27 has never been tested on a sub. It was created as intiative by the Boiler construction plant and therefore was never oficially cancelled, but there were no orders and no production as well. The knowhow is still there, but it will take years to get it onboard. I have no idea how far they have got with the Lithium batteries. Times are changing nowadays, Russia may team up with Fincantieri, there was this S-1000 sub on international exhibitions couple of years ago.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by akshay »

Bihanga wrote: Firstly we should create an all new Naval Bases in some other corner of our coastline keeping in mind increasing traffic jam and lower space. ....
On the top of that, our Naval Vessel are increasingly getting vulnerable to Terror attack as their close proximity to Commerical Cargo liner ...
A terror attack on military installations especially the Navy is considered Act of War worldwide.
Terrorists could attack an army base but the same rules don't apply to Navy vessels.
Correct me if i'm wrong here.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by akimalik »

SNaik wrote:
Austin wrote:There is a good change that Amur will win this deal , considering the stupid belief that exist in IN that we need to operate Eastern and Western system
Since there is talk of directly importing 2 Subs...could this be the indication that the U-boats are in consideration (ex-Greece)?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by akshay »

I still don't see how 50000 crores go for 6 subs... this is probably adding a ball park figure for the followup of FRENCH Scorpene(almost 100% improved class+AIP), new FCS and Brahmos Mark 2. remember we had options for 6 more. Still 10 billion USD is too much...need more info on this one..

I always thought with Nerpa, the IN would RFP for Russia Lada class

on a diff note ..anyone notice the increased frequency of Acquisitions or Information in the media these days.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Arunkumar »

Singha wrote: ..........
secondly, we should design and build our own SSK design, albeit importing whatever we dont make like diesel engine and AIP plant rather than just license making a existing design. else we will be forever unable to break the import cycle in submarines. its a much harder
effort but worth it.
...........
Singhaji that is already in the works i guess. The remaing 12 boats would be designed and manufactured in India.

http://www.stratpost.com/navy-worried-a ... -depletion
India has a 30-year plan for acquiring 24 submarines, which was approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security in 1999. The acquisition was divided into three batches, with six Scorpene submarines to be acquired under Project 75, six more submarines with, as yet, undefined specifications to be built under Project 75 (India) and the remaining 12 to be constructed indigenously, under the presumption that by the time construction were to begin on the last batch, India would have acquired the expertise and technology to build the submarines independently.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Aditya_V »

I think the 50000 crore figure has been deliberately exagerated for sensational news. This will justify inaction from the Government from ordering anther 6
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

SNaik wrote:Russian AIP currently exists just as an abandoned experimental shore faciility. Kristal-27 has never been tested on a sub. It was created as intiative by the Boiler construction plant and therefore was never oficially cancelled, but there were no orders and no production as well. The knowhow is still there, but it will take years to get it onboard. I have no idea how far they have got with the Lithium batteries. Times are changing nowadays, Russia may team up with Fincantieri, there was this S-1000 sub on international exhibitions couple of years ago.
SNaik , We may choose AIP solution independent of the submarine we choose , that is the reason why we didn't opt for MESMA AIP since the IN was keen to go for the best option available.

There are couple of option from German,French and Spanish available the IN studies found Fuel Cell to be a better choice and the chose AIP will equip P-75I and retrofit into Scorpene.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by K Mehta »

IIRC India was developing its own AIP system at NMRL, The plan was to retrofit it into scorpenes during their midlife refits or on the later scorpene builds
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Rampy »

Aditya_V wrote:I think the 50000 crore figure has been deliberately exagerated for sensational news. This will justify inaction from the Government from ordering anther 6
Do you think New SUb news and MMRCA final list news in the same week was coincidental?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by chackojoseph »

SNaik wrote:Russian AIP currently exists just as an abandoned experimental shore faciility. Kristal-27 has never been tested on a sub. It was created as intiative by the Boiler construction plant and therefore was never oficially cancelled, but there were no orders and no production as well. The knowhow is still there, but it will take years to get it onboard. I have no idea how far they have got with the Lithium batteries. Times are changing nowadays, Russia may team up with Fincantieri, there was this S-1000 sub on international exhibitions couple of years ago.
If I may bring to your notice of an DRDO Director getting an award for AIP project. :wink:
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Pratyush »

Unless, the navy is looking to drasticcally inrease its Nuke Sub fleet. Paying 50000 crs for just 6 boats is extortion and robimg the indian taxpayer blind if it is just for the onventional sub fleet Fegardless of how advaned the boat is.

Having said so what one finds difficult to understand is the need to have a forign partner for this project. In the wake of the launching of the Ahriant. Why can the tehnologies developed for the boat be utilised for new submarines.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by uddu »

Indigenous AIP Submarine in 4-5 yrs
http://www.theistimes.com/indegenous-ai ... n-4-5-yrs/

New Delhi: The Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) hopes to develop an indigenous Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) submarine in four to five years, chief controller, Research and Development, A Sivathanu Pillai has said.

Research and development work was going on at the DRDO Naval Material Research Laboratory (NMRL) in Mumbai to develop hydrogen-based fuel cells for the diesel-powered submarines, Pillai told mediapersons in Kochi on Friday.

“NMRL already has developed number of fuel cells,” Pillai, who was at Trikkakara near Kochi in connection with a national symposium at the Naval Physical and Oceanographic Laboratory (NPOL), said.

Diesel power submarines will have to surface everyday for air, while the hydrogen based technology is new and presently not operational anywhere in the world.

“It is being developed by one or two countries. We are also going to develop that technology and that will be installed in the diesel submarines,” he said.

The hydrogen based technology could enable submarines operate for long duration, may be 20 to 25 days under water, he said.

To a query, he said while Pakistan got AIP developed by France last month under the deal to purchase the Agosta submarines, India would be able to to develop the technology indigenously.

India may also go in for AIP system from France or some other countries for the six submarines that are being constructed at Mazgaon.

“But, we are not interested in that system and want a better system that is based on hydrogen,” Pillai said. :twisted: 8) — DD News
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by abhik »

The news article is rather fishy, nowhere does it say that Rs 50000cr has actually been allocated. Going by history defense acquisitions allocations have always been gross underestimates of the final price. Take the MRCA for example (or the VIP chopper deal) only about 10 or 11 billion USD have allocated but we know that not even the cheapest planes in the competition will come for that much.
The only reason I can imagine for the 'estimate' of a Rs8500Cr price tag is that it could be manufactured at upto 3 different docks (apart from scam, ghafla etc.).
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by sum »

New Delhi: The Defence Research Development Organisation (DRDO) hopes to develop an indigenous Air Independent Propulsion (AIP) submarine in four to five years, chief controller, Research and Development, A Sivathanu Pillai has said.
Errr, Did Shri Pillai mean DRDO will make AIPs for submarines or did he mean a indigenous SSK with indigenous AIP will show up in the near future?
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Shalav »

considering this is a naval project, one should be quitely confident about the end results. After all the navy has done much more for indiginization than the other services. The Delhi's, the Shivalik's and the Kolkata's are proof of the same.

Their commendable record of encouraging local development stands as a shining example of what can be done if the services make the effort. I am pretty sure that I'd the navy can use the naval HFx - it will. Furthermore they have an RFP for ucv's exclusively for domestic development, instead of taking the easy way out and going for foreign maal at the beginning itself.

I don't like comparing the services to each other but domestic development of weapons and systems is where the navy should be emulated by the other services.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

last few posts moved to defence R&D thread.
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Rony »

Chinese Global Times

India to acquire six subs in biggest military purchase
The report came just days after Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari visited China for a possible deal in civil nuclear energy. Indian media also speculated that Zardari and Chinese officials were in talks regarding a railway linking Beijing and Islamabad.

Li Jie, a researcher at the Chinese Naval Research Institute of the PLA Navy, told the Global Times that India's submarine deal would affect the military balance in Asia.

"Submarines have always been the Indian navy's weakness," Li said. "Its current 15-strong fleet consists of mostly aging Russian and German submarines, none of which are nuclear powered. Those new submarines, along with India's aircraft carrier fleet, will boost the country's presence in the Indian Ocean and change the military climate in Asia."
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Austin »

As long as DRDO Fuel Cell AIP is proven to be reliable and ready to be installed on submarines of P-75I class the IN will have no issues in accepting it.

Unlike on surface ships the risk associated with reliability and safety of AIP on submarine is quite high , since the IN has desired to go for AIP from the first submarine of P-75I series
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Post by Rahul M »

I have to say I'm quite disappointed with the submarine affair, it is shaping up to be yet another arty acquisition saga. this tender etc could easily have been floated 5 years back, wth did they have to wait this long ?
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