Indian Naval Discussion

[nits]

Nod for stealth destroyers to boost Indian Navy strength

The government has given its nod for the acquisition of a new class of stealth destroyers for the Indian Navy that will augment its force levels and replace ageing warships. The nod for four of the new Project 15 B stealth destroyers was given by the Cabinet Committee on Security meeting on Thursday that also discussed projects for fencing along the International Border. The four Project 15 B destroyers, which will be fully designed and manufactured indigenously, are estimated to be valued at over Rs 20,000 crore

Link

[Patrick Cusack]

INS Chakra is finally on it way to an Indian naval base!!!

[Guddu]

Strat's comments on the Nerpa
"High-end nuclear submarine technologies are among the most closely guarded military secrets. Even the shape of the screw (a submarine’s propeller) is considered a matter of national security because of its importance to a submarine’s acoustic signature. With the exception of the United States sharing fleet ballistic missile technology — and submarine-launched ballistic missiles — with the United Kingdom, and suspected Russian assistance and advice in China’s efforts to field its own nuclear submarine force, the sharing of this technology is quite rare. The leasing of a modern nuclear submarine is nearly unprecedented — it happened once in the late 1980s when Russia leased India a Charlie-class nuclear-powered cruise missile submarine for several years.
The significantly longer 10-year lease of the Nerpa likely indicates that India intends not only to experiment with the boat but employ it operationally. With a single hull, the submarine’s near-term effects on regional military dynamics are limited. More important is the gain for India’s naval personnel: Experience in operating and sustaining a boat of this sophistication and the development of tactical and doctrinal foundations for its employment are of enormous significance for the cultivation of a cadre of competent and proficient Indian submariners."
"But the blueprints for a boat as sophisticated as the Akula II are only part of the equation. It is difficult to overstate the challenges of precision fabrication of components and rigorous quality assurance necessary to construct a quiet submarine. The decades of hard-won and expensive developmental experience that lead to something like the Akula II — and the furious and intense naval competition that drove that development — cannot be sidestepped or short-cut. Just ask China, which has been struggling for decades to build quieter submarines."

[Singha]

they are right that its not possible to leapfrog decades in one swoop, but it helps having a "elder brother" to guide and suggest options = it eliminates a lot of dead ends right there as a experienced guy will immediately say what options wont work.

[VinodTK]

The Moscow Times: Nuclear Submarine 'Handed Over' to India

Citing a source in Russia's Pacific Fleet, RIA-Novosti said the submarine was manned by a mixed Russian-Indian crew.

Another RIA-Novosti report, citing the plant that built the Nerpa, said the submarine had not yet been officially handed over to India. It said the Indian crew was only training aboard the Nerpa at sea.

[Philip]

Magnificent news that the Chakra is being delivered to India.I expect a great reception for it shortly and pointedly also before the visit of "Om-Baba" and Co.'s forthcoming visit. The next matter for the CCS to decide upon-if not already taken, is the timeframe for the lease of the second/third Akula.This may have been delayed taking into consideration the perfecting of new eqpt. aboard the Nerpa after her mishap.While indigenous efforts are on apace to build our own SSBNs,the arrival of attack SSGNs from Russia should complement the launching of new indigenous platforms.Reg. the "larger" futue ATVs,there was an item in an old issue (2010) of the "F"mag,where Dr.Saraswat was interviewed.He gave a candid description of the indigenous efforts on,with a new sub-launched missile with more than twice the range of that on the ATV,spoke of Agni-3,5,MIRV warheads,mobile launched Agnis in addition to rail launched ones,and the development of the Nirbhay subsonic cruise missile at B'lore with a range of over 1000km.From this,one can safely conclude that future SSBNs indigenously built,will be larger to carry larger,longer ranged ballistic missiles,with MIRV warheads.

We have a window of opportunity ofn about 2-3 years in which to beef up defences in order to stymie China and its all-weather friend,Pak.Pak's current disaster woes have temporarily halted the Sino-Pak domination plan for the IOR.The other good news about India being given permission by the Lankans to open new Dy.High Commissions at Hambantota and Jaffna,along with Indian rail links being extended and rebuilt to both destinations,is excellent news,showing the close cooperation between Indian and Sri Lanka,with the Lankans sensitive to Indian concerns about Hambantota which they say will not be used by the Chinese for any military purposes.

[Austin]

Well what we need right now is 3 - 4 conventional submarine to tide over the very low numbers and taking into consideration that some of those might be in maintenance and operationally unavailable.

If we can get 3-4 Kulb/Kilo SSK in the next 5 -6 years that would stabilize the fleet and compensate for the delay in P-75/75I program.

I dont think more Akula is happening , they are just talking of lease of 1 sub for 10 years for training and stuff

[Singha]

I think we should be clear in our own minds what we want:

- do we need any form of n-sub against pakistan? probably NO - because any type of sub is same against ships hugging the shore or hiding in port. the IAF can mostly deal with these hiders aided by salvos of LACMs from ships.

- what is the plan wrt china?
[a] ONLY strategic n-deterrent. in that case we need to focus on SSBN with A3SL to ignore all distractions
([a] plus sea denial in green water) - need to add AIP SSK and n-attack subs
[c] ([a] plus conventional land attack) . need to add largeish SSGN subs with 12-16 VL tubes sized for
shourya / nirbhay / brahmos2

[a] + + [c] is ideal but very costly. [a] is a must. we might have to choose OR [c]

[Juggi G]

Navy Eyes UAVs that Function like Choppers
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India

[VinodTK]

India Responds to China Navy

One aircraft carrier—the Kuznetsov class Varyag—is already being refitted after being taken off Russian hands. All three aircraft carriers will be available to China by 2017 and will be responsible for patrolling the South China Sea, Western Pacific and Indian Ocean, thus signaling to the world that China has indeed truly become a superpower.

So what is India doing to counter the growing Chinese naval might? The Chinese naval buildup is a matter of deep concern for Indian security managers. However, New Delhi is busy developing an effective counter. Two aircraft carriers—the INS Vikramaditya (Admiral Gorshkov of Russia) and INS Vikrant—are under construction. In addition, the Indian government in March 2009 approved Project 15B under which next-generation warships are in various stages of construction. Meanwhile, at least three Kolkata class destroyers are under construction under Project 15A.

[Vivek K]

^^^^^^ from the above link

Meanwhile, construction work on at least four nuclear submarines is in full swing, while the indigenous Arihant nuclear-powered submarine has already been launched

[Singha]

if our initial crop of n-boats is in quietening league of victor-III class (predecessor of Akula-1 in 1980s), we will have emerged from
the water ahead of the chinese n-boats and clawed back most of the lost ground in the past decades.

[Neshant]

Navy Eyes UAVs that Function like Choppers
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India

Once again, its a global tender... which means India is subsidizing the R&D base of a foreign country at the expense of its own.

[Singha]

hopefully not another FMS scam.

[Philip]

Three separate lines of sub construction are required.One for nuclear powered subs.Let's call it the "ATV" line,plus another for conventional subs.The N-sub/ATV line has been shrouded in secrecy and after the launch of the first ATV,we've been officially told that L&T has been building the hull sections,etc.,with final assembly at Vizag.The second line is at the moment the Scorpene.The decision to establish a third line (second conventional AIP/Brahmos sub line) has been pending for a long time.Since the first ATV line's prioority is to build our SSBN fleet first,the second AIP B/Mos line is essnetial for the IN to be able to counter the PLAN fleet's future forays into the IOR.The Scorpene's are probably meant to deal mainly with the PN,being superior to Pak's French Agostas.For nuclear attack subs,we will have to rely upon leases of Russian Akulas.etc.,as it will not be possible for us to indigenously build 4 lines of subs all by ourselves,and even with the ATV line,there is officially considerable Russian support.

This might look like a very ambitious sub building programme,but just take a look at the Chinese sub projects and what is also happening in Aasia-Pacific waters and one realises the enormity of the IN's underwater and other naval responsibilities.The PLAN is not only building at least two lines of N-subs,SSBNs and attack subs,but also a couple of conventional sub lines too.Apart from China,the SoKos,Japan-threatening to expand its sub fleet because of China's naval ambitions,Australia,Pak,Iran (mini-subs) and possibly Taiwan too if it can get hold of a supplier,are also building subs.Malaysia,Indonesia,Singapore and Vietnam are accquiring subs from France,Sweden, and Russia and one would not be surprised if we suddenly see a Chinese built sub appear in the Burmese navy! This list does not include the many subs of the US and its NATO allies which also operate their N-subs out of Diego Garcia and other friendly countries.

[svinayak]

if our initial crop of n-boats is in quietening league of victor-III class (predecessor of Akula-1 in 1980s), we will have emerged from
the water ahead of the chinese n-boats and clawed back most of the lost ground in the past decades.

Can you post some links on Chinese noise reduction efforts on n boats.
What is the input to chinese n boats from other countries - Russia

[svinayak]

Apart from China,the SoKos,Japan-threatening to expand its sub fleet because of China's naval ambitions,Australia,Pak,Iran (mini-subs) and possibly Taiwan too if it can get hold of a supplier,are also building subs.Malaysia,Indonesia,Singapore and Vietnam are accquiring subs from France,Sweden, and Russia and one would not be surprised if we suddenly see a Chinese built sub appear in the Burmese navy! This list does not include the many subs of the US and its NATO allies which also operate their N-subs out of Diego Garcia and other friendly countries.

IOR is a very crowded place.

[Pratyush]

^^^ IF we requuire three lines of subs then

1) We need a conventional Sub. Having two separate types of conventional boats is not advisable. At least not the 7000 Crs types as proposed recently.

2) Nuke Hunter Killer like the Akula type

3) Ballistic Missile boat with Nuke weapons.

Anything else will be paying a kings ransom to the phoren ship designers.

Now, where is the capability to do this in house? The answer is the design team of the Arihant

[sum]

Navy Eyes UAVs that Function like Choppers
The Tribune, Chandigarh, India

Err, what happened to the Chetak Chopper UAV, a model of which was shown in AI-09?

[Juggi G]

CAG Pokes Finger at Inferior Steel in Navy Tankers


The INS (Indian Naval Ship) Deepak (Lamp) in dry dock at Muggiano, Italy being launched last February.

INS Deepak, launched into the sea.

[Juggi G]

Navy’s Submarine Rescue Plan Leaks : CAG

The report reads, “75 per cent Submarines in the IN Fleet have already Completed Three Fourths of their Estimated Operational Life. In fact the IN envisaged the project without clearly identifying deadlines for completing the project.

It is Pertinent to Mention that only 7 Out of 16 Submarines in IN are Operational and 9 Submarines are Under Refit/Repair as of October 2009.

As of November 2009, Padeyes fitment has been completed in 11 out of 16 submarines out of which only 4 SSK (Diesel Electric Attack) submarines have been certified by USN for mating with US DSRV for a period of three years effective from 20 December 2007 and of whichat least 2 are presently under refit. Two of the serving Foxtrot submarines, on which Padeyes were fitted, INS Vela and INS Vagli, would be de-commissioned in 2010 and 2011 respectively”

[SNaik]

I dont think more Akula is happening , they are just talking of lease of 1 sub for 10 years for training and stuff

Well, Nerpa is to be considered a training submarine, because she is significantly modified comparing to standard Akula. The four 650mm TT are exchanged for four 533mm, MGK-540 Skat is replaced by MGK-400EM-03 without LF trailing sonar (the tailplane container is empty), comm suite Pelamida has been deleted, crew quarters in Sections 2&3 have been modified to acommodate larger crew of 100 sailors and rescue capsule has been enlarged accordingly.

[svinayak]

The Moscow Times: Nuclear Submarine 'Handed Over' to India
Citing a source in Russia's Pacific Fleet, RIA-Novosti said the submarine was manned by a mixed Russian-Indian crew.

The news is that Russia asked for extortion price of another $1B for this sub at a critical stage and GOI had no other option.

[sum]

It is Pertinent to Mention that only 7 Out of 16 Submarines in IN are Operational and 9 Submarines are Under Refit/Repair as of October 2009.

Should such news ever be in the open domain?

[svinayak]

It is Pertinent to Mention that only 7 Out of 16 Submarines in IN are Operational and 9 Submarines are Under Refit/Repair as of October 2009.

Should such news ever be in the open domain?

There seems to be some internal bogey which is putting this in the open so that govt is forced to take decision for buying. Foreign lobby may be interested in this kind of news to be open to create public opinion.

Indian public opinion is an open field for any lobby or any country to change or trample in.

[sum]

There seems to be some internal bogey which is putting this in the open so that govt is forced to take decision for buying. Foreign lobby may be interested in this kind of news to be open to create public opinion.

If such news actually makes GoI wake up and procure the things which should have been preset yesterday, im all for it ( since there anyways doesn't seem to be a indigenous SSK on the anvil).

However, if the artillery saga is anything to go by where the IA virtually dictated panic reports in DDM about dire straits in artillery and yet, GoI refused to budge, these kind of news will have no impact on procurement and will only help the enemy get such classified info( which subs working, which not etc) freely instead of employing their intel assets!!!

[svinayak]

There seems to be some internal bogey which is putting this in the open so that govt is forced to take decision for buying. Foreign lobby may be interested in this kind of news to be open to create public opinion.

If such news actually makes GoI wake up and procure the things which should have been preset yesterday, im all for it ( since there anyways doesn't seem to be a indigenous SSK on the anvil).

Internal debate should remain internal and Indians should control the debate and Indian should also set the terms of the debate. That is the point I am trying to say.

[Austin]

I dont think more Akula is happening , they are just talking of lease of 1 sub for 10 years for training and stuff

Well, Nerpa is to be considered a training submarine, because she is significantly modified comparing to standard Akula. The four 650mm TT are exchanged for four 533mm, MGK-540 Skat is replaced by MGK-400EM-03 without LF trailing sonar (the tailplane container is empty), comm suite Pelamida has been deleted, crew quarters in Sections 2&3 have been modified to acommodate larger crew of 100 sailors and rescue capsule has been enlarged accordingly.

This now seems to confirm the fact that the Nerpa is being leased to train new generation of Nuclear submariners and the sub has been custom built for training a large number of crews , Adm Nirmal Verma and ex Adm Sureesh Mehta has been trying to stress the fact that the lease is to train new nuclear submarine crews for ATV.

BTW SNaik the RuN do not have a 650mm TT in their inventory after Kursk and recent statement by ex Adm Kuroyedov has been stressing to bring it back due to their unique characteristics.

[Austin]

The news is that Russia asked for extortion price of another $1B for this sub at a critical stage and GOI had no other option.

The lease price has not been made public officially by GOI or Kremlin , the often quoted price of $650 million or other floating prices are just media guess and faithfully printed by every one else.

Chances are we will never known the lease price unless the MOD makes it public.

[Arya Sumantra]

Internal debate should remain internal and Indians should control the debate and Indian should also set the terms of the debate. That is the point I am trying to say.

+1
Does CAG not have even simple common sense that there is no way to talk to our own people exclusively without letting enemies also know ? Any CAG report on such matters should be strictly for parliament members only and perhaps some trimmed & declassified generally worded(not adequate readiness etc) reports version for media. Instead these overzealous folks put their report right on the web for all to see. Are we the only democratic country in the world?

[Austin]

The IN has been sounding alarm bell to GOI since ages that their submarine fleet will be badly affected and number will fall below operational needs if conventional submarine fleet building program and procurement needs are not addressed immediately and nothing was happening in that front since ages.

The CAG report now confirms the same fact that our submarine fleet operational readiness is dented.

[Katare]

hopefully not another FMS scam.

Choice is between FMS scam or endless multivendor (re)tendering

[hnair]

Internal debate should remain internal and Indians should control the debate and Indian should also set the terms of the debate. That is the point I am trying to say.

+1
Does CAG not have even simple common sense that there is no way to talk to our own people exclusively without letting enemies also know ? Any CAG report on such matters should be strictly for parliament members only and perhaps some trimmed & declassified generally worded(not adequate readiness etc) reports version for media. Instead these overzealous folks put their report right on the web for all to see. Are we the only democratic country in the world?

A nation whose public can see its own govt's sloppy management of funds is a strong and self-confident one. And a paki terrorist (uniformed or not variety) is yet to be shot dead, clutching a CAG report.

Here is something that someone who has impeccable credentials (aka, much better than any of us has to say right here in BRF). He is literally sitting atop something that is breathtaking for anyone who wants India to fight its own wars with its own philosophy and weaponry designed around that. And it is not that he agrees 100% with the CAG, but respect for an institution that asks questions on how tax payer money is treated is there.

The CAG is definitely NOT a bunch of hare-brained babus as has been made out to be. I have found some of their remarks and analyses on certain aircraft acquisitions surprisingly precise and accurate. Don’t underestimate them, they are good.

I have seen others' rant on this matter of CAG reports about how they are not that cool compared to western ones. Despite the shenanigans of the west over the last two years, anyone having faith in "western auditing best practices" in private firms is pathetic. Let alone public or govt affairs.

A CAG report is just the start of a journey where decisions are made by multiple agencies to blacklist a firm or not. As in the case of bofors, political input might also come in at some points. CAG does not have the authority to do that.

[Vivek K]

hnair == Hari Nair?

[Gaur]

^^
I have a feeling that you have not visited lch thread recently.

[hnair]

hnair == Hari Nair?

eek

Though my ego says "He wish!", the reality is more "I wish!!"

Me, humble non-state actor onlee, saar!

[Vivek K]

^^
I have a feeling that you have not visited lch thread recently.

Maybe I'm slow but hanir and Hari Nair seem pretty close.

[Vivek K]

hnair == Hari Nair?

eek

Though my ego says "He wish!", the reality is more "I wish!!"

Me, humble non-state actor onlee, saar!

Saareeee phor the konphuzion! SDRE onleee!

[ramana]

Nightwatch comments on the Akula

India-Russia: It has been 19 years, but India once again has leased from Russia a nuclear powered attack submarine, manned by an Indian crew. The Russian submarine Nerpa, which NATO classifies as Akula II, nuclear-powered attack submarine leased to India departed Russian waters today bound for India, with a mixed Russian and Indian Navy crew. Once the boat arrives in India, it will be re-christened, INS Chakra and begin sea trials, news services reported.


Comment: Chakra was the name of the Charlie-class nuclear submarine India leased from Russia between 1988 and 1991. Today's departure represents the culmination of negotiations and arguments since at least 2004.

Regardless, India has a nuclear attack submarine for the next ten years, time enough to exploit it for crew training and guidance in constructing India's indigenously built, nuclear-powered ballistic missile submarines. A squadron of three is planned. The Akula II - an India's conventionally powered submarines -- can launch torpedoes and cruise missiles. India has purchased some of the most advanced underwater-launched cruise missiles in existence.

[maz]

CAG ought not to be castigated for stating the obvious regarding submarine availability. Outside of professionals with access to satellite imagery, anyone with a cursory knowledge of naval vessels can tell the numbers of boats that are likely to be avaialable with a reasonable degree of accuracy. In general, a rule of thumb is that at any given point in time, 33% of vessels in a fleet are undergoing major refits so are non available, 33% are on deployment, and the remainder are avaialble at short (a few hours to a few days) notice.

Today, the number of submarines in the fleet are 10 Kilos, 4 SSK and one Foxtrot, Vagli, which won't be diving again for the remainder of her commissioned life which is around 4 months. Having said this, it is readily known which subs are in deep refit - in this case at least 2 if not three EKM as well as one Type 209 SSK. Mind you, this is all from verifiable, open source material.

So what are we left with? 8 EKM & 3 SSK boats that are theoretically available for deployment barring refits. But, using the 33% rule, we would then be left with 4 EKM, two SSK boats. As of last year, 1 Foxtrot would need ot be added to the tally. So, in reality, the number of boats that were operationally available during the CAG audit is pretty much as expected - that is to say around 50% of total holdings.

Actual numbers of operational boats can be determined with pretty good fidelity for those in the business of knowing unless deception measures are used.

Having said this, submarine force levels are dangerously low and something besides feet dragging by the MoD is called for. As some meembers have suggested, a risk free approach would be to acquire a handful of new improved Kilo boats from Russia which can build them quicker than MoD babus put signatures on project files. If the VMF is ordering brand new Kilos, then the In could not go wrong in acquiring these boats with upgraded technologies.

But what is really galling is how PSU interests have time and again succeeded in literally torpedoing attempts by a very competent private sector outfit to build submarines. Regardless of what experts have to say about the complexity of building submarines, if Iran can mass produce mini submarines of progressively increasing complexity AND a nuclear boat can be built at SBC Vizag with the heavy involvement of said private company, then it is indeed a travesty that the IN refuses to put forth an indigenous design instead of floating RFI for foreign designs. All the more so since SDG at DNA has supposedly been working on an indigenous SSK since Adml Bhagwat's time. Often times, good enough is much more preferable than having the best.