Indian Naval Discussion

[Singha]

well the sales of luxury cars, villas and single malts in delhi and mumbai do need some stimulus pkgs now and then...

[narayana]

India's sub supremacy
Shiv Aroor says that by 2015 we will be left with only 8 subs ,does these numbers include 2 ATV's,1 Akula And atleast 1 Scorpene?

[nrshah]

Shiv Aroor says that by 2015 we will be left with only 8 subs ,does these numbers include 2 ATV's,1 Akula And atleast 1 Scorpene?

I think it does not include them. However, combat capable and no of subs capable to being deployed at a time will be even lower.

It is ironical that none of branch of armed forces is fully combat capable. Dwindling numbers are every where. With IA, it is tanks, Artillery. In case of IAF, squadron level down to 34 which is also not modernized. Around 150 Mig 21 (Not including Bisons) will be due to retire very soon or rather have served more than their useful life. Mig 27/ Jaguar all third gen fighter when the world is moving towards 4.5/5 gen forms around 25% of our inventory and are going to stay till 2020 or even 2025. The only light at the end of tunnel is acquisition o f around 280 (50 Still not confirmed) flankers. lack of adequate refulers, AWACs (No additional order still placed and even when placed will take atleast 2/3 years min to start deliveries) All we are doing is evaluation extending over decade.. This is in spite of we having one of the fastest growing economy in the world. I think we have decided to prove CIA report of India becoming 4th largest concentration of power by 2015/2020, wrong. Probably Indian way of proving our superiority over Americans

[narayana]

I think it does not include them. However, combat capable and no of subs capable to being deployed at a time will be even lower.

It is ironical that none of branch of armed forces is fully combat capable.

yup its so Pathetic ,i saw a recent report that india wont be battle ready for at least 2020,and on other hand we are preparing doctrine for facing both chinkis and porkis together,God save us all.i think if such thing happens,we are left with no other option but to take shelter under uncle's umbrella,licking his boots

And singha ji i dont think we are committed for 12 scorpenes,we had a option of 6+6 but with recent arm twisting by the french better not to exercise that option unless they make the other 6 nuke propelled.

[Anantz]

The math seriously doesn’t add up. As per the India Today article, if we start retiring the Kilos as per 2013 date for the oldest sub(which was inducted in April ’86), the average life would be 27 years for a single Kilo. At that rate, by December 2015, we would have only 5 Kilos left (Since 2 each were inducted in ’87 and ’88), but then we would have started induction of the Scorpenes by 2014 latest, meaning 2 Scorpenes, and then, as per BR navy page, the HDWs would be retired beginning 2016, so theoretically we would still have 4 HDWs left, so that totals upto 11 SSKs, plus upto 2 Nuclear Submarines, 1 SSN and 1SSBN on the fleet. I wonder how the 8 Submarines figure came up.

And we currently have 16 Subs, (10 Kilo+4 HDW + 2 Foxtrot) even if 2 Foxtrots are retired in the next two years, how will our force level dip to 9 Submarines by 2012? Ok so even if we discount 1 Kilo lying in the dockyards at Vizag and possibly one more in Russia for upgrades, and if we assume 1 HDW in the dock yard for repairs, we would still have 11 SSKs and 1 SSN and 1 SSBN by 2012.

[sum]

And we currently have 16 Subs, (10 Kilo+4 HDW + 2 Foxtrot) even if 2 Foxtrots are retired in the next two years, how will our force level dip to 9 Submarines by 2012? Ok so even if we discount 1 Kilo lying in the dockyards at Vizag and possibly one more in Russia for upgrades, and if we assume 1 HDW in the dock yard for repairs, we would still have 11 SSKs and 1 SSN and 1 SSBN by 2012.

The IN has mentioned "operationally capable" SSKs(not just number of subs) and is clearly not including SSNs/SSBNs which interestingly is mentioned as only 1 in service in 2015, which would be the Akula meaning the Arihant is unsure by 2015?? ( as per the IN doc shown on TV):-?

[Dmurphy]

Are we forgeting about the 2 Nerpa class submarines we are leasing from Russia for 10 years?

[Rahul M]

there is some amount of scare mongering in that report but it's to a good end. by IN's original plan we would have expanded sub capability. due to dragging feet we will need to run/jog to stay at the same place.

[johnny_m]

Its Akula Class Nerpa is the name of the one that is going to be leased to India

There were reports of a second Akula class lease, but Russian sources have denied it.

The only way to boost the sub fleet is the outright purchase (not local manufacture) of 3-6 subs.

[Dmurphy]

There were reports of a second Akula class lease, but Russian sources have denied it.

IIRC, they also denied the leasing of Nerpa till 2008.

[narayana]

And another misleading thing in the article is that in next five years porkis are not going to decommission any of their 5 subs,the 5 subs in Porki inventory now are 2 Agosta 70 which are 30 year old and 3 Agosta 90B class submarines .and they are not into any new deal for subs yet,the deal for U-214 is yet to materialise,so its not clear on what grounds shiv comes to a conclusion of 8 subs for pakistan by 2015?.

[Rahul M]

^^ if the public buys that and GOI feels the pressure to get things done on the sub front I'm all for such misleading reports !

in fact, I'll add the story that 2 han class SSNs are heading TSPN's way along with 6 U-214.

[Anantz]

The IN has mentioned "operationally capable" SSKs(not just number of subs) and is clearly not including SSNs/SSBNs which interestingly is mentioned as only 1 in service in 2015, which would be the Akula meaning the Arihant is unsure by 2015?? ( as per the IN doc shown on TV):-?

I beg to differ, no where in the report has the author mentioned "Operationally capable", it says "According to a Navy Document, India's available submarine strength (currently 16) stands to come down to 9 by 2012 and 5 by 2015 as a result of regular retirements."

[nrshah]

And another misleading thing in the article is that in next five years porkis are not going to decommission any of their 5 subs,the 5 subs in Porki inventory now are 2 Agosta 70 which are 30 year old and 3 Agosta 90B class submarines .and they are not into any new deal for subs yet,the deal for U-214 is yet to materialise,so its not clear on what grounds shiv comes to a conclusion of 8 subs for pakistan by 2015?.

I dont understand why we still have to compare with TSP. It is high time we start considering PRC and others in our defense planning. Now consider PLAN strength V/s IAN. I am sure it will send us a shiver...

[sum]

I beg to differ, no where in the report has the author mentioned "Operationally capable", it says "According to a Navy Document, India's available submarine strength (currently 16) stands to come down to 9 by 2012 and 5 by 2015 as a result of regular retirements."

Anant-ji,
Im quoting what i saw on the actual naval document which was being flashed in front of the camera (If my eyes didn't play tricks on me). I think you are quoting what the author has implied after reading the document.

There was a table in the doc which had 3 rows and 2 columns( year and number of operational subs). It had 9 +1 SSN ( as was printed on the doc) for 2012 and 5 +1 SSN for 2015. I cannot be 400% sure but the heading was number of operational subs and not number of subs.

Similarly, the 16 sightings of Chinese subs is clearly mentioned in tabular format in the doc and all of them are US sightings with a column detailing which command/ship of USN sighted the sub. The author does not mention this fact and has written only what he has gleaned out of the report ( without reproducing it faithfully word by word)

Whatever the semantics , the sub situation is still very grim and needs to be rectified ASAP.

[Anantz]

Well I get the point Sum-ji.... I was just pointing out something that didnt add up in Shiv Aroor's report. As far as availability of Operational subs are concerned, yes I agree they are quite different from what is there on paper. Especially factoring the serviceability of various subs in the IN fleet.

[somnath]

^^^All militaires exxagerate the threat levels in order to push through more budgets..The Western militaires have been at this game for decades (till the demise of the SU, CIA/DoD estimates of soviet capabilities projected numebrs far in excess of what SU ever had), the Indian military's media savviness is more recent..

Shiv Aroor, as mentioned above, merrily "preserves" the Paki sub fleet at its current level, and in fact adds three pretty much out of the hat..The second, and key variable, is the serviceability of the fleet - how many subs are available at a point in time? All perception of the Chinese threat quote the absolute numbers, not the serviceability of the fleet..How many of the Han class subs do the Chinese actually manage to deploy at a point in time? And how many of their DE subs, most of whom are a generation behind the Kilos do they deploy? The IN, on the other hand, has a fairly systmatic schedule of sub upgrades - that should be a good indicator of the combat availability of the fleet? Do we hear of any news of either Pak or Chinese sub fleets being upgraded - not really..

"Submarine contacts" data is useful - but SLOCs cannot be "dominated" by any underwater fleet. A Navy needs to mark its physical presence by having surface ships in an area to "dominate", subs will create "denial", and denial of international waters is an oxymoron...and here, without spending a penny, India has a natural (andaman) advantage ion the crucial straits of malacca..No Navy, perhaps not even the US Navy, can easily negate that advantage..

these articles are good, they cause the bureaucracy to move their backsides, but not a cause for undue alarm either..

[Kanson]

^^^All militaires exxagerate the threat levels in order to push through more budgets..The Western militaires have been at this game for decades (till the demise of the SU, CIA/DoD estimates of soviet capabilities projected numebrs far in excess of what SU ever had), the Indian military's media savviness is more recent..

Shiv Aroor, as mentioned above, merrily "preserves" the Paki sub fleet at its current level, and in fact adds three pretty much out of the hat.

Nope. It is preparing for the worst scenario. That's how planning will be done. It is not exaggeration.

"Submarine contacts" data is useful - but SLOCs cannot be "dominated" by any underwater fleet. A Navy needs to mark its physical presence by having surface ships in an area to "dominate", subs will create "denial", and denial of international waters is an oxymoron...and here, without spending a penny, India has a natural (andaman) advantage ion the crucial straits of malacca..No Navy, perhaps not even the US Navy, can easily negate that advantage..

You are taking things literally. If once you are denied completely out the area, that area by default it is dominated by Chinese. Ok There is Andaman. What if China takes over that land with active help of Chinese subs which plays the sea denial role btw Indian mainland and Andaman.

[Anantz]

I doubt China will ever will be able to take over the Andamans just by deploying some ships and submarines off of it. For one, the ships will be cannon fodder for our Sukhois based out of Car Nicobar, not to mention their subs ambushed just at the opening of the Malaca Straits by our fleet of relatively less number of FFGs and P28 Corvettes, And to mention the brigade size force stationed there which can be easily doubled up if threat situation deteriorates. That's exactly the strategic benefit of the Andamans, we have a large military base right on the mouth of a strategic choke point. Unless the Chinese are able to physically dominate the Malaca Stratits by deploying multiple carriers, there is no way they can ever grab the Andamans from us.

[Kanson]

^^ Military conflict is full of surprises. If plan is there to take Andaman then there is plenty of way to do that. They can deploy AAW destroyers/frigates too. You cannot sustain a brigade, if you are cut off from the mainland. Always there is a fear of Kargil type of invasion in Andaman.

Point is to not rest on created assumptions such as we can manage even if there is no adequate sub force. Once war starts we cannot dictate terms as we do in peaceful times. Better be prepared.

[Singha]

the kind of situation where a SAG protected by a couple of SSK, a few type28 corvettes, one AAW DDG but centered on a LPH type ship with 15 large ASW helis can play a good role in sanitizing the bay of bengal.

fixed wing carriers must be left free to use their 30knot speed and offensive power for raids on anything flying the plan flag.

[Philip]

The crisis in the IN's sub capability has been brewing for years.If one remmebers Adm.Bhagwat's plan during his shortlived term as CNS (no thanks to Uncle George),around 24 conventional subs would've been in service by now.His questioning of the elastic funding for the non-appearance of the ATV,where the IN was sidelined at that time,was one reason for his being turfed out.At the moment,we have one prototype SSBN launched which will take a min. of 18 months of trials before it can be inducted into service.Even when that happens,the ATV will be part of the strategic forces and will not be part of the IN's regular operational sub fleet .The incoming Akula will though.The problem remains with the delays in the Scorpene production and the delay in decision making regarding the second line.

Looking at the IN's future requirements,which must take into cognisance China's massive naval buildup in all three dimensions,Pak's steady modernisation and the arrival of several new players in the underwater stakes in the region-not to mention the ambitions of the wizards of Oz,apart from the leased Akula SSGNs,the IN needs conventional hunter-killer attack subs and multi-role ocean going Brahmos equipped SSGs,both with AIP.Without experiencing the Scorpene in IN service,it would be at this moment in time unwise to order more French subs,especially because of contract controversies and delays.A second line of Russian designed subs which carry Brahmos is needed,because the Russians will be very reluctant to allow a western sub to carry Brahmos.The Amur is a platform whcih has several sizes including a Brahmos option.The type of AIP that will be aboard such a sub has a big Q mark though.Whatever the source of the AIP system,A Russian or Russo-Italian design with Brahmos should replace the Kilo class with the first two built abroad for quick induction of the type,keeping in mind the Scorpene situ.AIP conventional subs with both Brahmos in VLS cells and Klubs fired from tubes,plus heavyweight TTs including Shkval should be a very lethal package.Once the second line arrives ,the older Kilos should start being phased out.The German U-boats should also be in a parallel programme,progressively replaced with newer AIP U-214s.These boats should be able to carry either Klub or the LR Exocets on the Scorpenes.Another idea could be a JV Indo-Israeli cruise missile as the Israelis are acquiring more Dolphin SSs which are supposedly able to carry Israel's LR strategic cruise missiles.This way we would be able to operate the best conventional sub tech available,while the Indian shipyards could concentrate on designing and building the most important priority of all, nuclear subs,both SSBNs and SSGNs.

While the debate about how many subs will be available 2015+,the hard fact is that we are woefully behind in the Asian sub tech stakes.Pakistan is building Agosta-90B AIP subs,S.Korea German U-boats,the Japanese have ben building their own designs for decades,Malaysia the first Asian country to acquire Scorpenes,Indonesia to buy more Russian Kilos,so too Vietnam and even Oz has built Kockums Collins class modified and improved with US help later on.WE cannot also deny that without Russia's help,the ATV would never have been launched and the saga of Indo-Russian nuclear sub cooperation ,very strong,also has a long way to go both in sub-building and setting up bases and the infrastructure to support our future SSBNs and SSGNs.

Consequently,the GOI should give the utmost priority tp India's sub building programme as we must remember the massive size of China's sub fleet,which is being rapidly modernised with new nuclear and conventional subs of Chinese design repllacing older Russian subs,even modern 636 Kilos.

[Singha]

since we have a SSN program in the works, using mostly local and Rus equipment, why wait for the slow atv line in vizag, which will mostly be tied up with SSBN work.

we could provide the details and specs to Russian yard, with our reactor plant and have them build us SSNs ?

a size of around 5500t , 8 vl tubes and 30 tube fired weapons would be ideal.

[suraj p]

Last week in a meeting, one of my senior collaborator (a nobel winner in Medicine and he is 80 years old and still young) was describing the american spirit during 'the war' (WWII) and great depression. He was a teenager during that period of time and had to endure hardships of that era. He was comparing that 'depressive period' to todays economic recession in US and commented that he does not see the 'spirit' in the younger generation. while this was the preamble to the our other main discussion, he breifly pointed out the fact that in the neighborhood where he lived almost every mother and women worked for massive effort building battleships in the nearby San Francisco bay area.

I couldnt stop but visualizing in my mind the famous 'we can do it' picture where a woman folds her sleeves and showing her arm power. (http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/powers ... _do_it.jpg).


A quick glance at a ship building essay, I feel that why an American can do it whereas an Indian cannot. One pragraph in an article I was reading reads like this:
"In the decade prior to 1940, America's shipyards launched only 23 ships. In the five years after 1940, American shipyards launched 4,600 ships. San Francisco Bay Area shipbuilders produced almost 45 percent of all the cargo shipping tonnage and 20 percent of warship tonnage built in the entire country during World War II. The war lasted 1,365 days. In that span of time Bay Area shipyards built 1,400 vessels--a ship a day, on average. "
(Ref: http://www.nps.gov/history/nr/travel/ww ... ilding.HTM)


I wonder IF Indian Navy or we Indians can ever acheive what Americans acheived almost 70 years ago in a 'committment' to defend their coast and protect its values.

Even if we aim to build ships and subs from 50% effort of American buildup, we dont have to fear the 'red menace'. Other added advantage of this is the money we spend does not have to feed Westerners, the billions we spend will feed our millions of stomachs.

What I want to say is : Do we have the spirit and committment to build our own and defend? Afterall as an Indian I always feel that we are at war from western border or eastern border. Somehow our politicans and babus feel we are very safe.

thanks for reading..

P.S: I DO NOT agree to arguments that India does not have money and technology to build. Technology is not gifted by an Alien from other cosmos. Minds develop technology and we have the best minds.

[Kanson]

Good one to read Suraj. All those invented machines and electricity made evey society lazy. Some great scientist ( dont remember the name) made similar observation.

[Kanson]

the kind of situation where a SAG protected by a couple of SSK, a few type28 corvettes, one AAW DDG but centered on a LPH type ship with 15 large ASW helis can play a good role in sanitizing the bay of bengal.

fixed wing carriers must be left free to use their 30knot speed and offensive power for raids on anything flying the plan flag.

against ?

even with 20 odd subs which will be 1/3 rd of what PLAN can field against us we can only able to defend important ports and any one important SLOC. With only 5 subs it will leave many gaping hole in the defence set up. If they attack as packs and they open multiple fronts, things will turn more ugly. Only adv we might be having is the armed MPAs.

[johnny_m]

We can always Acquire more ASW assets to protect our ports. A Dozen more p-8 I will not hurt.

[NRao]

I wonder IF Indian Navy or we Indians can ever acheive what Americans acheived almost 70 years ago in a 'committment' to defend their coast and protect its values.

sure. India ALSO has such stories. Kargil is one of them. The other one I heard way back was when Vikrant was in Bombay dry docks waiting for spares from the US (for her planes IIRC). Meanwhile the war started and the UK embargoed India - the spares never came. It is said that Indian metallurgists had foreseen this problem, conducted research and made the parts that the In was waiting for from the UK. To the surprise of all Vikrant was sailing when everyone had assumed she would be useless during a conflict.

It is not what we during war or times of huge challenges that hurts India. It is what India does NOT during times of peace that hurts India. IMHO of course.

Indian politicians - in general, IMHO, are fast asleep.

[suraj p]

It is said that Indian metallurgists had foreseen this problem, conducted research and made the parts that the In was waiting for from the UK. To the surprise of all Vikrant was sailing when everyone had assumed she would be useless during a conflict.

Thanks for filling in this story.

Will we ever know why those material scientists were asked to do wonders at the nick of time and not when we are at peace. I am sure they can make "single crystal blades" for Kaveri.


If I remember quite well, we had to import coffins for our martyrs. We can find ways to make INSAS based on AK designs, however functional howitzers in service cannot inspire our arms designers. It does not make sense that coffins also had to be purchased from "Buitron and Baiza". Does it?

financial investment with commercial intent greatly differs from investment in sovereignty. Reliance Industries approaching Norwegian off-shore drilling companies for help in Bay of Bengal is a smart move. RIL will never invest to beat Norwegians in that case. However, depending on Russia for Submarines and Frigates even after 60 years is not a smart move even at peace.

Arguing that today's wars "might" last for a maximum of 10 days (US is not fighting a country but fighting Terror), can we build the required 10 submarines in 1 week. If we do it, we will beat "American-We can do it" commitment!!!

[NRao]

Suraj ji,

There are Indian engineers working on leading edge engines at Ford, GM and Cat!!!!!

Talking to them they have said that India can very easily make engines for the Arjun. No two ways about it. Cost is the issue. Can India match the cost of a German company is the issue.

On CB, do not know what is the problem. I find it very hard to believe that it is not possible. There is a problem - that we know. Why is there no will to overcome such problems outside of a Kargil - I still wonder.

[suraj p]

Rao saab,
You forgot NASA, JPL and Boeing.

what I meant to say is we spend billions of USD of tax payers money in importing Arms, aircraft, subs and frigates that are proven to work.

Why can't Govt. cough-up money for critical technologies that will work even if we are under sanctions (if in future).
For instance, if I were asked to pay Rs.90 from my monthly salary towards "Defense restructuring expenditure tax", (0.3% of 30,000 salary per month), govt will get ~1080 INR annually. now if they collect such tax from 10 crore people (10% of population) it is easily 2.4 billion which is the double of Mig-29 deal.

at what cost - Rs.90 from my pocket. One one condition - that the money must end up in Mazagaon Dock, HSL or GardenReach or cochin.

Please excuse me if my calculations is utterly wrong here.
"Defense restructuring expenditure tax" is totally made up by me. Can Tony do it?
the problem is not money or minds, the problem is again comes back to = attitude, commitment and pride that are missing.

[ShauryaT]

even with 20 odd subs which will be 1/3 rd of what PLAN can field against us we can only able to defend important ports and any one important SLOC. With only 5 subs it will leave many gaping hole in the defence set up. If they attack as packs and they open multiple fronts, things will turn more ugly. Only adv we might be having is the armed MPAs.

By what time frame in your view can the PLAN potentially field against us in offensive mode, all the way into the Bay about 60 powerful and advanced subs?

[negi]

^ The Chinese already have more than 50 (53/54) diesel electric subs and about 6 nuclear submarine in service.Having said that a substantial portion of their conventional submarine fleet comprises of vintage Soviet Romeo class and its Chinese derivative the Ming class (approx 26 ) .

[jaladipc]

the kind of situation where a SAG protected by a couple of SSK, a few type28 corvettes, one AAW DDG but centered on a LPH type ship with 15 large ASW helis can play a good role in sanitizing the bay of bengal.

fixed wing carriers must be left free to use their 30knot speed and offensive power for raids on anything flying the plan flag.

against ?

even with 20 odd subs which will be 1/3 rd of what PLAN can field against us we can only able to defend important ports and any one important SLOC. With only 5 subs it will leave many gaping hole in the defence set up. If they attack as packs and they open multiple fronts, things will turn more ugly. Only adv we might be having is the armed MPAs.

Chinese sending those many packs of DE subs into IOR to confront IN is simply a suicidal mission. With more and more MPA`s( medium and long range)on the way into IN arsenal,the survivalance will be taken care of.
After all, the number 5 is by 2020 or so.And still there is ample time to churn out more ATV`s and clones along with Indigenous DE with AIP. Its only a matter of will and money power. If IN and India wants to go for tit for tat and confront at the best, it can produce 6-8 ATVs and more or less same number of DE subs at home while taking use of all available opportunities and can get atleast 12 from foreign yards if MOD dont care about TOT and others.
Pulling up numbers is no big deal.only maintaining them matters.
a recent DOD report on chinese sub fleet put the perspective in a much simple way.No chinese DE sub never saw the open oceans apart from that south china sea. And Its so called nuclear fleet only happened to be dock queens while providing only limited deterrence and missile launching capabilities. OOh wait a min,did any one heard about the news of chinese launch of an SLBM? when they opened the hatch- it flooded the damn whole submarine?
IMHO, the best PLAN sub fleet can do is ,providing coastal defence (using its few note worthy DE subs) at the same time proving a sea based platform for launching of nuke armed missiles(well,if it doesnt flood the sub)

IN should be only concerned about the far far future(if and only if PLAN grows balls and technology in sending subs few NM away from its shores and bringing them back safely)

Get more underwater hydrophones networked at the important choke points. Make IOR sea lines a mystery navigational way to foreign navies.AAAHhhh did anyone mentioned the tracking of USN subs by IN near A`man? noh eh..... such things wont come in print media when the nation is being friendly.

IN has more knowledge of IOR along with USN than any other nation on the planet. The ocean survivalance ships of IN are an incredible asset.

[John]

While the debate about how many subs will be available 2015+,the hard fact is that we are woefully behind in the Asian sub tech stakes.Pakistan is building Agosta-90B AIP subs,S.Korea German U-boats,the Japanese have ben building their own designs for decades,Malaysia the first Asian country to acquire Scorpenes,Indonesia to buy more Russian Kilos,so too Vietnam and even Oz has built Kockums Collins class modified and improved with US help later on.WE cannot also deny that without Russia's help,the ATV would never have been launched and the saga of Indo-Russian nuclear sub cooperation ,very strong,also has a long way to go both in sub-building and setting up bases and the infrastructure to support our future SSBNs and SSGNs.

What's happening to Scorpene mirrors exactly what happened with Agosta 90B, DCN promises PN full tech transfer + local assembly + export rights for Agosta 90B. Program is hit with cost overruns and Karachi never fully received tech or the know how to assemble the subs from DCN resulting in huge delays (sound familiar). End result is a product that failed to meet the advertised specifications and Pakistan has canceled plans to build more. As for Collins two of them are no longer even operational.

IMO SSKs are not worth spending billion per vessel (would not be surprised if Scorpene end up costing even more) considering their drawbacks (slow submerged speed) if you are spending that much money you are better of putting on SSNs.

[ShauryaT]

^ The Chinese already have more than 50 (53/54) diesel electric subs and about 6 nuclear submarine in service.Having said that a substantial portion of their conventional submarine fleet comprises of vintage Soviet Romeo class and its Chinese derivative the Ming class (approx 26 ) .

Yes, I do know the overall number and the composition and also read enough about what the PLAN can or has done so far with its subs, hence the question.

[aditp]

the kind of situation where a SAG protected by a couple of SSK, a few type28 corvettes, one AAW DDG but centered on a LPH type ship with 15 large ASW helis can play a good role in sanitizing the bay of bengal.

fixed wing carriers must be left free to use their 30knot speed and offensive power for raids on anything flying the plan flag.

6 brahmos to the AAW DDG in an all direction converging attack will be enough to remove all protective cover to the panda flotilla. Thereafter the 15 ASW helos dont stand a chance against MKIs. Subs cannot influence arial warfare and then the LPHs are fish fodder.

[Singha]

well er, I was referring to a IN naval force....type28 corvette....

[Philip]

I agree that the cost of an SSK is exorbitant when compared with a Russian SSN,but the SSN has a crew three times as large and support facilities that also cost a bomb! Therefore,we cannot unlike the US afford a nuclear sub navy only.In addition,in littoral warfare,even the US has discovered the virtues of AIP subs,where old Swedish Gotland subs have been playing havoc with USN ASW in exercises.It is why one option,apart from a Russian BGrahmos equipped AIP sub,buying/building more German U-boats the follow on to our U-209s,is an attractive proposition.Now that HDW has been cleared of wrongdoing too,and is not selling its subs to Pak,an opportunity exists to add/repolace our U-boats which are now around 25+ years old.

[aditp]

well er, I was referring to a IN naval force....type28 corvette....