Indian Naval Discussion

kvraghav · Post by **kvraghav** » 11 May 2010 13:51

sombhat beat me to it.Deleting repost

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 11 May 2010 14:02

Kersi D wrote:The well platforms of ONGC. You must be aware that ONGC has a large number ( 50 - 70) process- and well- platforms in the seas around Mumbai. A substantial number of these platforms are un manned

On these platform we can have say
A troop with MANPADS
...
A triple ASW torpedo launcher

These can be well used as point defence systems

Kersi

Is it advisable to have explosives on these platforms?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 11 May 2010 18:13

so Naval mig-29 and Tejas will be tests in this facility

Flight-testing facility for ship-borne aircrafts at Dabolim soon (first steel cutting ceremony picture in link )
http://idrw.org/?p=1609#more-1609

The Chief Staff Officer (Air) Goa Naval Area, Commander A S Baghel seen performing the ceremonials to kick off the structural work and mark the commencement of first steel cutting ceremony for ‘Shore Based Test Facility’ at Goa Shipyard Ltd, in Vasco on Monday. Also seen are GSL chairman and managing director, Rear Admiral (Retd) Vineet Bakhshi, senior officials of GSL and other dignitaries. (Sudesh Bhosle)

VASCO: In an innovative method to facilitate a pilot to land an aircraft safely for full-fledged flight testing of ship-borne attack aircraft as well as for training pilots to stimulate an aircraft carrier, the first-of-its-kind state-of-the-art and modernised testing facility in entire South Asian region christen as ‘Shore Based Test Facility’ would be set up at Naval Air Station Goa at Dabolim shortly, with an estimated cost of Rs 88 crore. The project is scheduled to be commissioned in 2012.
The first steel cutting ceremony to mark the commencement of the structural work for the state of the art SBTF was held at Goa Shipyard Limited on Monday morning wherein the Chief Staff Officer (Air) Goa Naval Area, Commander A S Baghel did the honour in presence of GSL chairman and managing director, Rear Admiral (Retd) Vineet Bakhshi, senior GSL officials and other dignitaries.
While speaking to ‘The Navhind Times’, the chairman and managing director, GSL, Rear Admiral (Retd) Vineet Bakhshi informed that GSL was proud to take up the structural work of the SBTF. He informed that GSL has an outstanding facility for building the vessel and that the modernisation work of the GSL would help out in taking the company to a greater height. Rear Admiral Bakhshi said that with this facility GSL will add another feather to its cap.
The Chief Staff Officer (Air) Goa Naval Area, Commander A S Baghel informed that the SBTF will be a great asset to the Indian Navy. He disclosed that India will be the third country to have this facility after Russia and the US. He stated that SBTF is being set up by the Aeronautical Development Agency.
Commander Baghel informed that the facility will have various systems for controlled take-off and landing as done on aircraft carriers. He opined that GSL has been appointed as the main co-coordinator for this project to handle the work related to steel procurement, structural fabrication, provisioning of equipment of Indian scope of supply, installation, testing and commissioning of the facility.
The project will provide India a facility to test developmental aircraft before they are cleared for use on board aircraft carriers and also provide the Indian Navy with a facility to hone the skills of their pilots before they are deployed on-board. GSL was selected as the execution agency in view of its excellent design, build and project management skills.

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 11 May 2010 19:31

India steals a march on the high seas.

The cost of India's 44,000-tonne indigenous aircraft carrier, Vikrant , under construction at the Cochin Shipyard Limited (CSL) in southern India, is expected to be a third of the cost of the 65,000-tonne HMS Queen Elizabeth, while another planned IAC of 60,000-tonnage - likely to be named INS Vishaal - will cost less than half of its British equivalent.

DDM?

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 11 May 2010 21:42

DDM?

The under construction IAC at Cochin is a Vikrant Class carrier formerly known as Project 71

And the second planned Aircraft carrier is likely to be in the 60,000 ton category. It was mentioned earlier too, I think in The Week article. But AFAIK no name has yet been decided for the second carrier. So this INS Vishaal is a surprise.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 12 May 2010 07:48

Image of Gorshkov at Severodvinsk, Russia

1 May 2010 8ak: An 8ak reader submitted this GOOGLE IMAGE of what he claims is GORSHKOV at Severodvinsk in Russia.

Initially, it was not published since this could be considered a state secret and in the ~3,000 articles on this website, 8ak has never published anything that would harm the interests of the nation. After much debate we decided to publish this because both Russian and Indian authorities should be aware that the Gorshkov upgrade is highly visible even with commercially free tools and that other states with access to advanced satellite imagery would have much more detailed views, in real time and from multiple angles. This may also lead the authorities to take steps to reduce visibility of projects of strategic national interest.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 May 2010 19:03

Follow this project to get a picture of what the future holds WRT Indian built aircraft carriers.

Work begins on SBTF at Goa Shipyard

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 12 May 2010 19:50

Fear of Trojan whatever partially laid to rest:

Indian-designed Data Link II delivered to Boeing

At least these chips should not have any Trojan software in them?

But, yes, these planes in the IN can still go to war on behalf of the US. Granted.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 13 May 2010 02:04

More fuel to the controversy.Perhaps we can clear up the fog of war.

Now, no record of Navy sinking Pakistani submarine in 1971
Josy Joseph, TNN, May 12, 2010, 02.51am IST

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 919209.cms

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 13 May 2010 02:58

NRao wrote:Fear of Trojan whatever partially laid to rest:
Indian-designed Data Link II delivered to Boeing
At least these chips should not have any Trojan software in them?
But, yes, these planes in the IN can still go to war on behalf of the US. Granted.

With time, would it be possible for the US to be able to de-compile and crack the code?

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 May 2010 03:26

narmad wrote:
NRao wrote:Fear of Trojan whatever partially laid to rest:
Indian-designed Data Link II delivered to Boeing
At least these chips should not have any Trojan software in them?
But, yes, these planes in the IN can still go to war on behalf of the US. Granted.
With time, would it be possible for the US to be able to de-compile and crack the code?

A person from a software super power nation asking that question?

But, yes, it is possible. Very challenging perhaps, but none the less possible.

(AESA anyone?)

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 13 May 2010 08:13

well I think arent this kind of stuff based on public stuff like AES ? open source code is available to encrypt and decrypt stuff using the AES implementation.

the private key generator used by the armed forces to generate and synchronize keys will likely never be given to any outside party - its not needed either.

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 13 May 2010 12:48

Singha wrote:well I think arent this kind of stuff based on public stuff like AES ? open source code is available to encrypt and decrypt stuff using the AES implementation.

the private key generator used by the armed forces to generate and synchronize keys will likely never be given to any outside party - its not needed either.

AFAIK, BEL does not use public algorithms for encryption/decryption. They use their own - at least that's what I was told at AI09. How good or how bad it is is open for speculation.

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 13 May 2010 13:37

^^^

Besides there has to be some "hopping" mechanism - channels, frequency and algos.

However that does not mean it cannot be broken into. Just that it is more than difficult to do so. And, who is to say that the encryption cannot change again?

I would expect "encryption" for peace times and then a set for during war.

And, as far as I know Indians are considered up there WRT such techs. IIStat, Cal was always raided by the US Univs as far back as the 70s. Direct, no questions asked, GCs.

Just BTW, it seems that the Indian Armed Forces (IAF for sure) is moving to fiber where ever possible. One of the reasons why India is witnessing this rash of band auctioning to the cell companies. Thus the associated fear of Chicom companies.

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 13 May 2010 17:39

Dmurphy wrote:
Kersi D wrote:The well platforms of ONGC. You must be aware that ONGC has a large number ( 50 - 70) process- and well- platforms in the seas around Mumbai. A substantial number of these platforms are un manned

On these platform we can have say
A troop with MANPADS
...
A triple ASW torpedo launcher

These can be well used as point defence systems

Kersi
Is it advisable to have explosives on these platforms?

Yes This is a big question but......

Risk No 1. Keep explosives like MANPADS on oil platforma

Risk No 2. Get destroyed by enemy.

I suppose we drwa a line somewhere!!

K

Kersi D · Post by **Kersi D** » 13 May 2010 17:42

Craig Alpert wrote:Image of Gorshkov at Severodvinsk, Russia
1 May 2010 8ak: An 8ak reader submitted this GOOGLE IMAGE of what he claims is GORSHKOV at Severodvinsk in Russia.

Initially, it was not published since this could be considered a state secret and in the ~3,000 articles on this website, 8ak has never published anything that would harm the interests of the nation. After much debate we decided to publish this because both Russian and Indian authorities should be aware that the Gorshkov upgrade is highly visible even with commercially free tools and that other states with access to advanced satellite imagery would have much more detailed views, in real time and from multiple angles. This may also lead the authorities to take steps to reduce visibility of projects of strategic national interest.

From the size of the shadow, the superstructure look massive compared to other similar vessels

K

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 May 2010 17:44

I just want to report that as per the report by one software friend of mine who works for a major software companies, there is a lot of coding and other work that all companies do for the military.
The military guys are shrewd enough to split the work into several unrecognizable parts and distribute it.
The final integration and debugging probably takes place at secure locations.

He just wouldn't tell me more on the nature of work he did, even though I pestered.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 May 2010 17:49

Google earth Gorky pics. The image is dated Sept 14, 2009.

chackojoseph · Post by **chackojoseph** » 13 May 2010 18:01

Gagan wrote:I just want to report that as per the report by one software friend of mine who works for a major software companies, there is a lot of coding and other work that all companies do for the military.
The military guys are shrewd enough to split the work into several unrecognizable parts and distribute it.
The final integration and debugging probably takes place at secure locations.

He just wouldn't tell me more on the nature of work he did, even though I pestered.

You are right, the core work is done in house. Even if outsourced, its split in a way that right hand does not know what the other is doing.

Most IT biggies are doing some parts of Def work. The IT biggies have recruited ex DRDO/def guys too. Some defense personnel have floated their own companies catering to it.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 13 May 2010 20:45

Boy the guy that I know is uber top of the line minds! He's something of a maths genius!! I know how he was at school.

These are the guys who are doing the software stuff for India. Amazing, truly amazing!

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 13 May 2010 21:25

Sevmash speeds up Gorshkov's modernization

Sevmash shipyard speeds up modernization works on aircraft carrier Admiral Gorshkov (Vikramaditya) for Indian Navy, said Ekaterina Pilikina, head of the shipyard's press service referring to Vice Admiral Nadel Nirajan Kumar, the head of Indian Navy's ship building and purchasing authority.

On Thursday Indian delegation led by Vice Admiral Nadel Nirajan Kumar completed inspection visit to Sevmash shipyard. Among the delegates were deputy India's naval attaché to Russia, director of naval procurement department, and financial director for naval systems.

"It's been the first time I visited the yard. The ship hit me much and I was pleased to see the shipyard's leaders – director general Nikolai Kalistratov, chief engineer Alexei Alsufiev, deputy director general Sergei Novoselov – exerting every effort to follow the work schedule approved by the governments of our countries", said Mrs. Pilikina citing Indian admiral.

Nonetheless, as for admiral Kumar, in some places the work pace should be speeded up, although he expressed confidence that these delays would be eliminated by his next visit. I'm confident of our success and those actions taken by the shipyard, said the admiral.

Indian delegation has been on board the carrier and familiarized with work progress. According to Indian admiral, he personally monitored the work schedule in India. Having come to Severodvinsk, Kumar ascertained that Sevmash is not only on schedule but even increases the pace.

Upon termination of inspection visit, admiral Kumar and the shipyard's director N. Kalistratov signed a protocol.

Presumably, next time Mr. Kumar will visit Sevmash in Sept 2010.

Aircraft carrier Vikramaditya must be delivered to the orderer till 2012.

The biggest defense export contract implying modernization of Admiral Gorshkov sold to Indian Navy was tied between Russia and India in 2004 providing that Russia would upgrade the ship for $750 mln and deliver deck-based aircrafts for the same sum. Initially, delivery was scheduled in 2008, but the deadline was postponed due to increase of work scope.

During visit of Russian Prime Minister Vladimir Putin to Delhi in March 2010 supplementary agreements were signed defining the contract cost as $2.3 bln.

PratikDas · Post by **PratikDas** » 13 May 2010 22:03

Gagan wrote:Google earth Gorky pics. The image is dated Sept 14, 2009.
...

Here's a link to Vikramaditya on Bing maps from 2010 ... select Aerial view and zoom in.

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 15 May 2010 12:09

Isn't Osprey a suitable platform for mounting the DRDO's AEW&C radar? and with potential to land on a ship's heli deck

before Shiv goes ballistic about aping the Americans, its tortuous development has a number of lessons should we develop our own

sathyaC · Post by **sathyaC** » 15 May 2010 18:05

Indian defence team inspects Gorshkov refurbishment
http://idrw.org/?p=1659

BY: THE HINDU

A high-level Indian defence team has carried out a detailed inspection of refurbishment of Admiral Gorshkov aircraft carrier, which Russia is expected to deliver to India by 2012.

Vice-Admiral Nadel Nirajan Kumar, who headed the Indian delegation, noted “positive dynamic in the works on the aircraft carrier” at Sevmash shipyards in Severodvinsk region, shipyard spokesperson, Yekaterina Pilikina, was quoted as saying by Itar-Tass.

She said the Indian delegation visited the warship and examined the refurbishment in detail.

Ms. Pilikina said the team was “pleased” to see the United Shipbuilding Corporation taking all efforts to keep with the work schedule that has been agreed to by both the governments.

Initially, the contract was estimated to cost $1.5 billion, but in early 2008 Russia sought an additional $1.2 billion.

After protracted negotiations, India finally agreed to pay $2.3 billion for the carrier, which is to be commissioned into the Indian Navy as INS Vikramaditya.

The 44,570-tonne aircraft carrier will replace INS Viraat and after modernisation it is expected to be seaworthy for 30 years.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 15 May 2010 19:21

Indian Navy to procure floating bullet-proof jackets

the Navy is procuring 4,500 "water-proof floating" Bullet-proof Jackets (BPJs) for its personnel deployed at sea and coastal areas. "To tackle the threat of terrorists and sea-pirates in the maritime zone and along our ports and coastal areas, we are procuring 4,500 BPJs, which will be water-proof and floating," a top Navy official told PTI.

The trial for procuring the BPJs will be held at two stages. "In one set of trials, the ballistic protection provided by the jackets will be tested at DRDO's TBRL lab in Chandigarh where the competing jackets will be tested against AK-47, MP-5 and other small arms of the Indian armed forces," the official said.

The other set of trials will be to check the floating capability of the jackets where different samples will be conditioned in sea water for 24 hours. "After that, they will be subjected to undersea trials. We want the BPJs to keep afloat personnel with their equipment for at least four hours," he said.

Companies likely to participate in the tender include MKU defence systems, which recently won the Home Ministry order to supply 59,000 BPJs for the paramilitary forces

Jamal K. Malik · Post by **Jamal K. Malik** » 16 May 2010 13:50

Navy to buy hydrographic survey vessels to train sailors

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 16 May 2010 15:01

Gorky

Is that a Nerpa on the left ?

This thing ?

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 16 May 2010 15:09

seems to be a empty drydock with a sliding set of roof covers probably to shield workers from rain and snow.

NE of Gorshkov there is 2 big subs in the water (delta & oscar?), one big sub under heavy repair/construction
and further ahead a Kilo and Akula tied up side by side in the water

we need to get the two under construction Oscars completed with new equipment, replace the Granit tubes
with brahmos and that would strongly increase our anti ship power - take the war to the enemy shore.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 16 May 2010 16:14

PratikDas wrote:
Gagan wrote:Google earth Gorky pics. The image is dated Sept 14, 2009.
...
Here's a link to Vikramaditya on Bing maps from 2010 ... select Aerial view and zoom in.

The pic in Bing maps still shows the Gorky in the dry dock. This ship was in the dry dock until last year, then it was moved to its current position next to the typhoon.

This is the old Bing Maps photo:

jamwal wrote:Gorky

Is that a Nerpa on the left ?

This thing ?

That is the Type 941 submarine (Russian desgnation 'Akula' class; NATO designation Typhoon class) probably the TK-208 Dmitriy Donskoy. The russians use this to test the Bulava and other naval missiles. This is the largest submarine ever built.

Our Nerpa is a Type 971 (Russian Shchuka-B class; NATO Akula)The Nerpa is berthed in either Vladivostok or across the bay in Bolshoy Kamen. It is not visible on google earth or Bing maps. The images are dated 2005 and 2006 etc.

The second thing that you've pointed out is a covered floating dry dock.

nitinr · Post by **nitinr** » 18 May 2010 14:02

Regarding the in house developed encrytion being talked about on previous page, it seems NTRO also chips in. Thye also have some good brains working on the subject.

Boudhayan · Post by **Boudhayan** » 18 May 2010 14:27

Singha wrote:seems to be a empty drydock with a sliding set of roof covers probably to shield workers from rain and snow.

NE of Gorshkov there is 2 big subs in the water (delta & oscar?), one big sub under heavy repair/construction
and further ahead a Kilo and Akula tied up side by side in the water

we need to get the two under construction Oscars completed with new equipment, replace the Granit tubes
with brahmos and that would strongly increase our anti ship power - take the war to the enemy shore.

Are we getting the Oscars too ???

I thought it is just a single Nerpa that we are getting on lease

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 19 May 2010 23:51

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 20 May 2010 01:03

Navy expands footprint in Indian Ocean

NEW DELHI: The Indian Navy has begun shouldering out-of-area tasks in a bigger way, the Chief of the Naval Staff, Admiral Nirmal Verma, told his commanders at the bi-annual conference of top commanders here on Wednesday.
...
..
He was also appreciative of the Defence Ministry for making additional funds available for clearing important schemes. Due emphasis is being laid on improving the efficiency of the internal processes associated with the acquisition to achieve the goals laid out in the Maritime Capability Perspective Plan.
...
...
In its quest for blue water status, the Navy maintained a continuous patrol in the Gulf of Aden with 17 ships on duty. In addition, Indian warships patrolled the exclusive economic zone and maritime areas of interest of Mauritius, Seychelles and Maldives.

Deliberations will continue on the maintenance philosophy, operational readiness, availability of ships, submarines and aircraft, cyber security and personnel matters impacting the welfare of personnel.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 20 May 2010 04:04

Dedicated satellite for Navy by year-end

"But ISRO has assured us the naval satellite, with an around 1,000 nautical mile footprint over Indian Ocean, will be launched as slated... The project cost is Rs 950 crore. IAF and Army satellites will follow in a couple of years,'' said a senior MoD official on Wednesday.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 20 May 2010 04:17

To meet demand, Navy for PPP model to build ships

In a bid to bridge the gap between demand and supply of naval ships, the Indian Navy is now deliberating upon speeding up the process of using Public Private Partnership (PPP) and forming a joint-venture with a modern and well-equipped private shipyard to meet the country's naval requirements. The matter is being discussed in the ongoing Naval Commanders Conference that began on May 18.
...
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However, given the past track record of Defence PSUs, MDL and GRSE, concerns are being raised about the manufacturing capabilities of these units to deliver Destroyers, Stealth Frigates and Submarines in time.

"The only way out to speed up the process will be to use the PPP model and form a JV with a private shipyard, which has modern infrastructure and adequate production capacities to meet the country's requirements," states a note being discussed in the conference.
...
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It is also being advocated that the Navy starts the process of manufacturing four P15B Destroyers through PPP. "Equitable distribution of business opportunities to the private sector would bring in cost efficiencies of a much higher order.

Countries like the UK, the US, Germany and other developed nations have almost all the defence companies in the private domain. In India, we could begin with the PPP model," the note states.
...
..
Concerns are also being raised that the ongoing Anti Submarine Warfare Corvette (ASWC) project, where four vessels have to be delivered, will not happen before 2015.

Most of these delays have been attributed to high work-load, low production capacities, cumbersome procurement procedures at PSUs, outdated shipbuilding practices, old machineries, ageing manpower, low scope of expansion and modernisation due to site constraints and the fact that no modular shipbuilding facility is available with the government or Defence PSU shipyards

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 20 May 2010 07:47

ICGS Vishwast to be inducted on Wednesday.

Patrol Vessel Rani Durgavati launched, Defence Ministry promises more orders for Hindustan Shipyard.

Rupesh · Post by **Rupesh** » 20 May 2010 21:34

Naval war room leak case accused Shakaran arrested in London

NEW DELHI: In a major breakthrough in the Naval war room leak case, one of the main accused Ravi Shankaran, a close relative of the then Naval Chief Admiral Arun Prakash, was arrested in London.

"He has been arrested by the police in London and is at present out on bail. We have moved papers for his extradition," CBI Director Ashwani Kumar said.

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 21 May 2010 01:44

Goa to rope in ex-Navy officers to assist marine police

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 21 May 2010 14:06

Naval forces get ready to operate N-submarine

The navy is firing on all cylinders to get a headstart on operating nuclear submarines, the most complex machines to be ever built. Indian submariners will get a chance to get into the belly of HMS Talent when the British nuclear submarine pulls into Indian waters off the western coast in June.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 25 May 2010 12:44

X-post

CISMoA standoff... Will India get dumbed down version of the P-8I??

Ajai Shukla reports...

If the stand-off over the CISMoA continues, India’s eight P8I Poseidon aircraft, which cost $2.1 billion, will be delivered with a down-rated avionics suite, not the high-end electronics that make the P8I a leader in its class.

Talking to Business Standard, Egan Greenstein, senior manager for business development, Boeing Defence, explained: “The signing of the CISMoA would be essential for a high-tech system like the P8I. It is absolutely packed with sensitive technologies. The US wants to share these technologies with India, but will make sure that they are suitably protected by the CISMoA.”

US Defence Secretary’s visit, Washington has written back, using concrete examples — including the P8I and the C-130J aircraft — to illustrate to New Delhi what capabilities it will pass up by refusing to sign the CISMoA and BECA.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ds/395975/