Indian Naval Discussion

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Mar 2010 09:09

Austin wrote: By MDL and Indian SY standards Yes

I spoke at length recently with someone who retired from one of the premier shipyards at a senior level recently..He accepted that a lot of the deficiencies of Indian SYs are true and need urgent action..At the same time, he was very clear that if IN deals in the same manner with foreign SYs, the results will not be much better either..

For all the vaunted design capabilities of IN (much deserved in most parts), ships built in Indian SYs dont have their design specs and fitment specified till the last minute, and changed frequently even after the desgin is frozen..Then IN has its pet favourites in terms of fitouts (from engine shafts to cutlery) - it insists on them even if the OEM is bankrupt/nearly bankrupt/unable to supply relaibly anymore...Discussions on these things go on ad infinitum...Then there is an added issue now of DRDO - every piece of critical equipment necessarily has a DRDO input on "make or buy", and DRDO typically wants to have a finger in the pie, often resulting in delays...

That said, the only way the situation is going to get better is when L&T starts making large ships in its Hazira yard, or we get LM to setup a yard in India...The PSUs are simply not going to cut it anymore..There was an incipient effort when SCorpene was being negotiated about getting in L&T as a partner, but MDL scuttled it..Pity...

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Mar 2010 13:06

Somnath , one of the key problem that has been mentioned in the past was Indian SY do not have inhouse design facility and has to depend on Naval Design Bureaus , this too plays its own part in delays and as such they have expressed on many occasion to have such an inhouse facility.

DRDO does have discretionary powers and can delay the entire process of induction if they cannot deliver on time , creating indigenous stuff can over ride other key operational factors like sticking to strict schedules on delivery and DRDO is not responsible for operations the IN is , so their arse is always on fire and have to come up with quick fix solutions like imports.

Trishul seems to be the classic example and we had frontline frigate without SR SAM for quite some time into their operations till a phoren substitute was approved.

L&T is vouching for 2nd line of sub and most likely would be building the second line of submarine for India , a very welcome change if they can deliver on time.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 26 Mar 2010 15:58

somnath wrote: That said, the only way the situation is going to get better is when L&T starts making large ships in its Hazira yard, or we get LM to setup a yard in India...The PSUs are simply not going to cut it anymore..There was an incipient effort when SCorpene was being negotiated about getting in L&T as a partner, but MDL scuttled it..Pity...

You are right Somnath ji, the entire GoI is beyond hope and redemption, they can not be fixed at all. Not the DPSUs, not the Indian Navy even.

The ONLY solution is to outsource, and then outsource some more if there is anything left after the first attempt.

In fact, I think you will agree that IN should get out of the design decisions since their contribution is limited to having favorites as you correctly pointed out.

Shouldnt INs design activity be outsourced? Say to Fincinatri? 100%?

In fact look at all the bureaucracy needed to run the forces? Couldn't we do better and more efficiently if we were to start outsourcing some of the duties to the forces to private players? May be Blackwater? They have such proven success after all? We have clearly failed to do any covert ops? May be time to disband Special forces and hire Blackwater directly?

In fact the more I think about it, the more I am convinced that going lean IS the way to go. Let us have a simple IA, very lean, and outsource most of the stuff to US much better that way.

You know it makes so much sense, in fact I am beginning to think that this is not really new advice and must be a tried and tested model? Can I think of some past examples?

You have my vote Sir, lets do it.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 26 Mar 2010 20:20

Austin wrote:Somnath , one of the key problem that has been mentioned in the past was Indian SY do not have inhouse design facility and has to depend on Naval Design Bureaus , this too plays its own part in delays and as such they have expressed on many occasion to have such an inhouse facility.

Yes, and guess who has a problem with that? the Indian Navy! IN doesnt have problems with ships designed by foreign SYs, but hasnt allowed any Indian SY to build one of its own...Having said that, its not as if any of the Indian SYs has been all that pro-active about things either...

If the second line of subs happen, it would be great..L&T can really ramp it up if given the opportunity, they are already making hulls of the nuke sub, and its really not a big deal replicating the sort of "value add" MDL/GRSE do in any case - not for an engg company of the pedigree of L&T...Most people in the NAvy know this, and in the ATV project, L&T was roped in from the very begining..

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Mar 2010 21:23

somnath wrote:Yes, and guess who has a problem with that? the Indian Navy! IN doesnt have problems with ships designed by foreign SYs, but hasnt allowed any Indian SY to build one of its own...Having said that, its not as if any of the Indian SYs has been all that pro-active about things either...

Somnath ,if i remember from the MDL chief interview the Indian SY will not be designing the ships per say with the inhouse design house , rather they would be useful in designing the finer details and changes that needs to be done based on practical needs , the overall design is done by Naval Design bureau , but since such a facility is not available at SY they are sent to and fro from Design Bureau to SY and vice verse which as per MDL chief interview introduces needless delay

If the second line of subs happen, it would be great..L&T can really ramp it up if given the opportunity, they are already making hulls of the nuke sub, and its really not a big deal replicating the sort of "value add" MDL/GRSE do in any case - not for an engg company of the pedigree of L&T...Most people in the NAvy know this, and in the ATV project, L&T was roped in from the very begining.

It seems L&T is all ready for this task and is waiting for GOI go ahead and who so ever wins this 2nd line of sub deal , L&T will build the sub for the navy.

I really hope this happens its been too long that MDL has been entrusted with nations security and ship building task, its better they are relieved with this burden , hopefully with some one who can do a better job, at the least there will be competition which is good.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 26 Mar 2010 22:02

Somnath if I recollect from the interview the foreign ship yard do have inhouse design facility and that is what MDL is exactly looking at.

Another possible contribution for delay is the Indian designed and built ships have component from different OEM and countries.

Compare the Talwar and follow on new class being built at Russian SY , most of the critical systems in there are from Russian OEM barring the sonar and EW suite.

Compare that with Shivalik where the Weapons and few Sensors are from Russia , EW/ESM/CIC/Sonars/ are Indian or mix breed(Western) ,IPMS (Western ), Engine is Lic built LM2500 ,Hull built in India , as per the Admiral Arun Prakash the claim of Indian MOD that 70 % ship is indigenous can be deceiving as most of the critical components that makes up these fighting ships are procured from different countries.

Such integration must be a very challenging task and one of the contributing factors for delay for Indian built ships.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 27 Mar 2010 00:48

somnath wrote: and its really not a big deal replicating the sort of "value add" MDL/GRSE do in any case

For all that I bash the OFBs and appreciate the L&T for the work done, the above comment is completely misplaced.

It is like comparing a cube of sugar with an apple and saying that since the sugar cube is sweeter, it will easily do all the roles of the Apple, if the apple is not found to be as sweet as apples should be.

Fundamentally off the base, MDL and GRSE manufacture COMPLETE ships. At best L&T today makes components and specific ones, for the Navy.

Can L&T do it in due time given enough hand holding? Sure.

Is it not a big deal? For any one remotely associated with Engineering and product management in reality, yes they will say its a big deal, a fairly big deal.

I do not know what PhDs in Strategic management think about it though, I am sure they would agree with you that it is not a big deal.

Anoop. A. · Post by **Anoop. A.** » 27 Mar 2010 03:39

A report on one of the blogs (guess who's) states that the third ship of Project 15 A, INS Chennai, will be launched MOD Mr. A.K.Antony on 1 April, 2010.

I wonder who picked April Fools Day for this auspicious event.

Link:http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2010/03/k ... april.html

Nikhil T · Post by **Nikhil T** » 27 Mar 2010 07:18

Any paanwala info on how the construction is going at CSL for IAC? People must have seen something since its supposed to be launched in end-2010.

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 27 Mar 2010 08:25

Austin wrote:as per the Admiral Arun Prakash the claim of Indian MOD that 70 % ship is indigenous can be deceiving as most of the critical components that makes up these fighting ships are procured from different countries.

Well thats very true...Indian SYs do precious little other than the job of welding the ship as per NDB's drawings and fit it out according to Navy's specs...The "value addition" of the SY in the total cost of the ship is very marginal - someone mentioned that it will be about a third of the typical value addition in a foreign SY...L&T at some stage had proposed setting up a design bureau in collaboration with MDL, but it fell through as neither Navy nor MDL was too keen..

Mr_Li · Post by **Mr_Li** » 27 Mar 2010 08:53

Mr. Li thinks that it is erroneous to count parts that are indegeious or foreign maal in a built up ship or tank or plane.

It is another excersize to integrate each and every subjistem and it is not small feet. Integration is done by whom you should ask.

Integration done by indian only. which they never get even a Kudo's for. Although no one knows what a Kudo is.

So as it is apparent why sometimes you are all refered to as "children" is because shipyards just do not weld metal. they have to test every installed component be if from germoney or dhaka.
- Mr. Li

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 27 Mar 2010 09:07

^^^To be sure, I am over-trivialising a bit the role played Indian SYs, only to exemplify how they havent come up in any great manner over the years...

BTW, for ships built in India, bulk of the system integration is done by an IN team designated for that purpose...And IN has done a terrific job over the years to integrate disparate platforms...

somnath · Post by **somnath** » 27 Mar 2010 10:32

Just as a crude gauge of "value add", here are MDL's financials..

http://www.mazagondock.gov.in/annual_re ... %20new.pdf

Operating margins, a crude measure of the value add in operations of any company, including a SY, measured as (operating income-to-sales ratio) for MDL is under 3%...

For Hynundai Heavy Industries (shipbuilding division) its 11% (link below)..
http://www.hhiir.com/EN/financial/finanHighlight_01.asp

Closer home, for ABG Shipyards, its 18%
http://www.abgindia.com/application/Ann ... 008-09.pdf

Not exactly like-to-like, but gives an estimate of how far behind Indian PSU SYs are..

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 27 Mar 2010 11:08

EXCLUSIVE: IAF Floats Tender For Six Amphibious Aircraft-livefist
he Indian Air Force has floated a brand new tender this month for six amphibious aircraft for "search and rescue missions, inter-island communication, rapid response duties and reconnaissance of islands". The IAF has set down a preference for a twin turboprop craft with a range of at least 800-nm. The IAF has also said it wants an aircraft with a short take-off capability, a cruising speed of about 200 knots and state-of-the-art avionics and EW kit, including RWR/MAWS. The Bombardier 415 (photo) and the Be-200 appear to be among the very few purpose-built amphibians still being built.

Philip's long term vision materializing. Good thinking old hat.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 27 Mar 2010 11:09

Prithvi-II, Dhanush Tested Successfully Today-livefist
Salvo mode firings of theatre ballisic missiles Prithvi-II and a ship-launched variant, Dhanush, were tested successfully at dawn today at India's missile testing site off the country's South-East coast. The Dhanush was fired first, followed a few minutes later by the Prithvi-II. The tests were conducted by the Strategic Forces Command. This was a totally user-conducted test, though DRDO chief VK Saraswat is understood to have been in attendance -- he is of course best known for his work with the Prithvi programme. The Agni-I is scheduled to be tested tomorrow .

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Mar 2010 11:23

K Mehta wrote:EXCLUSIVE: IAF Floats Tender For Six Amphibious Aircraft-livefist.....<SNIP>

What with IAF and IN and number six?

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 27 Mar 2010 11:40

^Six with a follow on order of six i think! Strange that IAF has ordered it instead of IN though! Especially with the range mentioned in nautical miles!

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 27 Mar 2010 11:46

K Mehta wrote:^Six with a follow on order of six i think! Strange that IAF has ordered it instead of IN though! Especially with the range mentioned in nautical miles!

That is because the IAF provides the necessary air logistics to these island territories. The only Tpt a/c IN operates is the Dornier for liasioning duties.....

b_patel · Post by **b_patel** » 27 Mar 2010 12:14

Does anyone have any information about LM offer for the Aegis system for the Navy's new destroyers? I know the formal presentations were made a while back but Is india actually considering it? Also, would the Aegis SPY radars replace or supplement the planned El/M-2248 radar?

Juggi G · Post by **Juggi G** » 27 Mar 2010 14:43

Aggressive Plans : Navy to Acquire Fighter Planes, Subs

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Mar 2010 16:43

Great to see the IAF and hopefully later on the IN too with amphibs in their orundels.The Dornier DO-228 has an amphib version,OZ designed ,with an undercarriage float very interesting and which could also be acquired as we manufacture the same basic aircaft locally.The Beriev's are the best though and come both in turbo-prop and jet versions.Their usefulness in combating forest fires (thanks to their fire-fighting ability too using a water scoop) which is sorely needed in the country ( a friend told me how hundreds of acrres in one of our popular hill resorts was aflame and spreading),is another point in favour of their acquisition.

My remarks for aeons about the tsunami and the inability of the IAF to operate from its affected/destroyed A&N air bases which operated only fixed wing aircraft .seems to have also been well understood by the IAF.IN fact the type is in extensive use in the Maldives.It's going to be great when these amphibs are in service.Now for acquiring the ASW versions too!

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 27 Mar 2010 17:26

^ I hope your other wish also comes true and soon we get a DSRV! Your post on Kursk in the international thread reminded me of this other thing!

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 27 Mar 2010 17:40

Tx KM.Let's hope for the best!

Vipul · Post by **Vipul** » 28 Mar 2010 04:13

A K Antony To Launch INS Chennai, On April 1, In Mumbai.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 28 Mar 2010 16:49

23 saved from burning ship

In a late-night rescue mission off the coast of Goa, ships of the Indian Navy and Coast Guard rescued the 23 crew members of MV Maersk Miami, a container carrier whose engine room caught fire on Friday night. The efforts were assisted by merchant vessels also in the area, a press note issued by the defence ministry states.

Responding to the distress call received at 7.33pm from the vessel that was 43 nautical miles west off Goa and was headed for the Jawaharlal Nehru Port Trust, Mumbai, authorities at the coast guard headquarters (West) alerted naval authorities in Mumbai and Goa as well as the coast guard in Goa.

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 28 Mar 2010 18:17

Vipul wrote:A K Antony To Launch INS Chennai, On April 1, In Mumbai.

Kolkata class destroyers must be having some additional weapons storage capability too in terms of Barack and Brahmos which could be re-loaded, is that correct ?

vasu_ray · Post by **vasu_ray** » 28 Mar 2010 21:38

they might be stacking missiles, so a single launch tube probably holds 2 canisters for Barak

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 29 Mar 2010 12:34

India signs deal to buy 15 fast-interception boats from France

India has signed a deal to buy 15 fast-interception boats (FIBs) from the French shipyard Chantier Naval Couach. The boats are meant for use by the new Sagar Prahari Bal (Sea Patrol Force in Hindi) being raised by Navy.

Indian media quoting defence ministry sources said the deal could be worth an estimated $500 million and was concluded on March 27. However, there was no official word on this from the Indian MoD.

India is seeking upto 80 FIBs for the Sea Patrol Force which was raised after the attack on Mumbai by sea-borne terrorists in 2008 which cost 200 lives. The Sea patrol Force will be a 1000 man force specially trained to function as a monitoring and interceptor force. It will supplement the Navy and Coast guard.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 29 Mar 2010 18:36

From the model,it appears that upto 16 B'Mos missiles are carried in the forward silos,with two Barak-1 silos on either side of the helo hangar,possibly in similar style as on earlier DDGs,plus exra silos aft of the B'Mos silos for the new SAMs,LR Barak or whatever.Since there do not appear to be a large "grid" of silos for the SAMs,the missiles might even be stored on a rotating launcher as in some Russian vessels.Ideally,the USN's universal missile silos which can carry any type of missile,Tomahawk,Std SM SAM series,Harpoon,etc.,is the ideal system for a warship,because,one can have a variety of missile types carried in any mix of number depending upon the vessel's mission and the modular nature allows a maximum number of missiles carried in the hull space available.

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 Mar 2010 19:32

GRSE’s Raja Bagan dockyard launches 3 Water Jet Fast Attack Craft (WJ FACS.

On commissioning they will be named “INS Kabra'', ''INS Koswari'' and ''INS Karuva''.

With this I make it that all 10 in the series of the WJFAC’s have been launched or commissioned:

3 Water Jet Fast Attack Crafts launched from Raja Bagan Dockyard

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 Mar 2010 19:53

Vipul wrote:A K Antony To Launch INS Chennai, On April 1, In Mumbai.

Confirmation that the third Project 15 Alpha Destroyer will be launched at 11.30 a.m. on Thursday, April 1, 2010. Launch will be by Mrs. Elizabeth Anthony.

MOD press release at PIB

arun · Post by **arun** » 30 Mar 2010 20:08

^^^ Navy to launch third destroyer of 'Project 15 Alpha' on April 1 in Mumbai

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 30 Mar 2010 21:20

Somali Pirates capture 120 Indian sailors.

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 741365.cms

Somali pirates have struck again. In the biggest hijacking ever, they captured 8 boats taking nearly 120 Indian sailors hostage. The sailors were on their way from Somalia to Dubai.

TIMES NOW spoke to the relatives of one of the sailors, who said they have appealed to the government for help in securing their release.

Meanwhile, sources said that the hijacked Indian vessels have been traced near Seychelles.

The sailors belong to the Saurashtra and Kutch regions of Gujarat. They had anchored last in the rebel territory of Kismayo in Somalia where they loaded cargo into their boats. But moments after leaving the port, pirates captured them. So far, the pirates have not asked for any ransom.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 31 Mar 2010 08:06

India Will Expand Government Shipyard

NEW DELHI - India's state-owned Garden Reach Shipbuilders & Engineers (GRSE), Kolkata, is to double its capacity in the next 12 months at a cost of $87 million.

The funds for the expansion have been sanctioned by the Indian Finance Ministry.

The expansion will mainly focus on increasing the capacity of the Raja Bagan Dockyard acquired by GRSE in 2006 from the Central Inland Water Transport Corporation.

arun · Post by **arun** » 31 Mar 2010 11:06

NDTV has put up on its website 6 pictures of the Project 15 Alpha (P15A) Destroyer that will be launched tomorrow (Apr.1, 2010) at Mazagon Docks. Sadly picture quality is nothing to write home about:

Exclusive look at Indian Navy's new warship

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 31 Mar 2010 15:20

Pictures are probably grabs from video/TV.

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 01 Apr 2010 13:11

Brahmos for indigenous subs..

The president and general director of the Russian-Indian joint venture company "Bramos", Sivatkhan Pillei, who is heading the company's delegation to the International Naval Exhibition-2010 in Doha, has said that India plans to equip its home-made submarines with supersonic cruise missiles to be developed in collaboration with Russia.

The BraMos cruise missile is a symbol of the successful military cooperation between Russia and India, and the name of the missile is a combination of the two large Rivers in both countries- the Brahmaputra and Moscow. The BraMos supersonic missile can hit a target at a distance of 290 kilometers, and can fly at a height of between 15 kilometers and 10 meters. India has already equipped its land forces and surface ships with this class of missile. Now, non-nuclear submarines are to be fitted with BraMos missiles. Ruslan Pukhov, Director of the Center for strategy and technology analysis has told the VOR that the contract with India is hugely advantageous for Russia.:

"India trusts the BraMos in different versions; initially, it was conceived as an anti-ship rocket, but a submarine version is now being developed," said Pukhov. "It's advantageous for Russia because India is the main market for it. One of the leading 5 enterprises in Russia has been created on the basis of the machine construction company".

The issue of submarine based rocket remains an open-ended question, and the matter will become clearer with the appearance of a submarine fitted with the missile in question. The Indian air force has beaten other arms of the armed forces to the race as the BraMos missile will be in its service within the next two years. The latest version of the rocket can fly at more than three times the speed of sound. India's neighbours have no supersonic cruise missiles. Russia and India will soon develop a hypersonic rocket with a speedy exceeding that of sound five-fold or more, making it invulnerable to interception. It testifies to the highly successful military cooperation between India and Russia.

http://english.ruvr.ru/2010/03/31/5851541.html

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 01 Apr 2010 18:03

Is this real IAC or Photoshoped ??

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 01 Apr 2010 18:11

^^^Image has not loaded. Can you plz check the image tag if its used properly. I am longing to see what you have in that pic..

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 01 Apr 2010 18:27