All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
Austin wrote:
Reading the report I think they have upgraded this aircraft as well as modernised it , this upgrade will extend the life of each aircraft by 16 years as report says , so Tu-142ME will be in IN service for a long time to come atleast a decade
It would be awesome if that's the case, but have seen any reports about upgrades ? There was that one report which demanded 888 million dollars for upgrade and IN wanted Israel invovled and ruskies wouldn't have it. It fell off the radar after that.
Simple use of google 'translate' for Igorr's link indicates references to upgrade to the MAD and other related navigational systems, uprated engines and reference to ability to carry 6 air launched BRAHMOS missiles. If this is indeed true then IN would get an intercontinental strategic bomber.
A fifth Indian Kilo class diesel-electric submarine has arrived to Russia's Zvezdochka shipyard for an overhaul under a recent contract, the shipyard company said on Thursday.
Russia has built ten Kilo class submarines for India and has already overhauled four of them at the Zvezdochka shipyard in the north of the country.
INS Sindhurakshak is being upgraded under a direct contract between the Zvezdochka shipyard and the Indian defense ministry, signed on June 4, 2010.
The upgrade program includes a complete overhaul of the submarine, including its hull structures, as well as improved control systems, a sonar, electronic warfare systems, and an integrated weapon control system. The upgrade is reported to cost around $80 million.
Russia's Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines are well-known for being extremely quiet boats, and have been purchased by China, India, Iran, Poland, Romania and Algeria.
I doubt the brahmos would fit into the internal torpedo bay and 6 externally is hard to imagine. maybe the original bomber version of Tu142 could
have managed 6?
I seriously doubt wether Tu-142 can accomodate 6 Brahmos....the pic of that a/c is very misleading...the main fuselage is pretty thin and with existing payload, cannot accomodate something like a luancher (rotating?) and 6 Brahmos
I was refering to the need for one, if we try and shove 6 Brahmos into the belly.....those massive contra-rotating propellors and wings tend to make the a/c look very big.....which it is in terms of length and wing span.....but is pencil thin when it comes to main fuselage.......after visiting thise birds in Arakkonam, I had commented that this is an a/c where wings+propellors have a body rather than otherway around....
@rohitvats. Even I did see this bird in Arakkonam in mid-90s and also once in Yelahanka. I also thought the same way. What we see in photo and what we see on the ground in front of us is all together different. I will call it as mythical 'Goliath' of aircraft and very majestic bird.
Just 2 dozen of these birds and at least 6-8 of Tu-22M will assure us complete control of BoB, AS and IO waters. Why are we not buying this?. I would like to know whether production lines for Tu-22M and Tu-142 are still open ?.What are all its 'disadvantages' over Boeing P8I. please share your thoughts in this regard. By going west, we are committing sin and I am quiet sure about it.
A fifth Indian Kilo class diesel-electric submarine has arrived to Russia's Zvezdochka shipyard for an overhaul under a recent contract, the shipyard company said on Thursday.
Russia has built ten Kilo class submarines for India and has already overhauled four of them at the Zvezdochka shipyard in the north of the country.
INS Sindhurakshak is being upgraded under a direct contract between the Zvezdochka shipyard and the Indian defense ministry, signed on June 4, 2010.
The upgrade program includes a complete overhaul of the submarine, including its hull structures, as well as improved control systems, a sonar, electronic warfare systems, and an integrated weapon control system. The upgrade is reported to cost around $80 million.
Russia's Kilo-class diesel-electric submarines are well-known for being extremely quiet boats, and have been purchased by China, India, Iran, Poland, Romania and Algeria.
Yea... well we got gyped on this purchase. Now we have to spend millions of greens to bring these up to standard.
Just 2 dozen of these birds and at least 6-8 of Tu-22M will assure us complete control of BoB, AS and IO waters. Why are we not buying this?. I would like to know whether production lines for Tu-22M and Tu-142 are still open ?.What are all its 'disadvantages' over Boeing P8I. please share your thoughts in this regard. By going west, we are committing sin and I am quiet sure about it.
venkyt, for me the source of system is immaterial - it is means to an end, not an end itself.
As for TU-142, these birds are getting a bit long in the tooth.....they are maintenance intensive and do not offer the kind of crew comforts that present generation systems do. Also, IMO, their will be a limit in terms of the quantum of upgrade possible and cost-benefit of these upgrades.....I been inside the a/c and the space available to the crew is barely enough to adjust them and the system. While they offer phenomenal capability in terms of their range (and low speed operations due to propellors), we need to see overall capability of the system.
As for TU-22M, well, we don't know the status of these a/c....may be some can be pulled from storage and refurbished...but then, what will be the cost of bringing them to present gen. level - something like glass/semi-glass cockpit and newer senson suite? Plus, the operating cost?
IMO, requisite number of P-8I and something like P-3X Orion (in large numbers) is a must. In case, IN wants ability to hit targets across the IOR, it can raise 2 Squadrons of SU-30MKI. Someting like the Tornado IDS equipped Marine Air Arm of German Navy. It will offer performance required by the IN.
Willy wrote:Yea... well we got gyped on this purchase. Now we have to spend millions of greens to bring these up to standard.
Well even the German T-209 is getting upgraded at MDL and thats quite normal.
Kilo is getting old and needs maintenance and upgrade and the upgrade is giving a substantial boost in its Sensor Weapons suite.
We got the first 8 submarine literally free from the soviet union. Today a new kilo will set you back by $300 million
Virtually Free???? I dont think so. We spent a good amount on them even though the drawbacks were well know. Was a CAG report on it a couple of years back to .
willy, compared to the 209 it ws virtually free, for all the problems we have with russia now there were many advantages in the SU era too. do not become predisposed to take a certain view.
Willy wrote:Virtually Free???? I dont think so. We spent a good amount on them even though the drawbacks were well know. Was a CAG report on it a couple of years back to .
Well I heard it from horses mouth we got it on 21years low interest credit and calculated by MOF it turned to be almost free.
The only known problem that kilo faced was with the battery ,they were perhaps not tropicalised enough and IN worked with Indian industry and replaced those Russian batteries with an Indian one , the russian kilo's operated in cold waters of North so battery was not a issue to them , beyond that there were no known issues with Indian Kilo. { IIRC the Indian Navy Official History by Vice Admiral GM Hiranandani has praised the Kilo sub }
And with new $80 million upgrade with Indian Sonar , ESM and Club LACM it packs very good punch and gives a service life of atleast a decade.
While the story is not yet confirmed the Tu-142ME upgrade does not come as a surprise to me in fact B HARRY's article on ACIG had references to 4-6 Brahmos missiles (2under belly and the rest under the wings).
Major upgrade plans for the Tu-142M were announced in the late 90s with mentions of the Leninets Sea Dragon (Morskoi Zmei) sensor suite and the air launched Klub ASCM but developments, if any, soon faded into obscurity for the next few years. It seemed certain that the Sea Dragon upgrade had been chosen until it was revealed in 2003-04 that plans to upgrade the Tu-142M with the same, were scrapped primarily on cost grounds. Apparently, Rosoboronexport had demanded a massive USD $888.9 million for the upgrade of the Tu-142M fleet, against a maximum of USD $555.5 million sanctioned by the IN and also refused to cooperate for a joint upgrade with Israeli participation. Although the original deal to equip the Il-38 with the Sea Dragon suite proceeded as planned, a wholly Israeli sensor suite on the lines of the upgrade package applied to the Dornier/HAL Do-228 of the INAS 310 squadron, was chosen instead for the Tu-142M. By early 2004, the IN had completed refitting a single Tu-142M (IN-315) (this is interesting Tu-142ME belong to INAS 312)with the Elta EL/M-2022A-V3 radar which replaced the Leninets Korschun system plus a complete ELINT and COMINT package with nose and fuselage mounted V/UHF antennae and an underfuselage P-band antenna farm. The complete upgraded to be standardized on the type includes all the sensors installed on the upgraded Do-228 plus additional SATCOM, ELINT and EW equipment. It is also expected that the upgraded aircraft would act as the primary command link between India's Nuclear Command Centre and the ATV SSN currently being built indigenously for the Indian Navy. Although the Russian upgrade offer was rejected, the Tu-142Ms will progressively receive the air launched version of the Novotar Klub cruise missile. The aircraft is also one of the intended primary platforms for the Indo-Russian Brahmos-A air launched supersonic multi-mission cruise missile whose development has recently been initiated. Upto four Brahmos-A under each wing, are expected to be the standard payload. Other recent announcements included the intention to overhaul and modernise the Tu-142M's Kuznetsov NK-12MV engines at the Motorostroitel aircraft factory in Samara, Russia. The factory also undertakes the major overhaul of around 15 Indian NK-12MV engines, yearly. In the future, the Tu-142M will receive the Brahmos-A supersonic cruise missile, with 4-6 rounds carried underwing and 2 carried on the fuselage.
Btw the Bear-D was carrying at least 4 huge SS-N-3 missiles during the height of cold war, so retrofitting much lighter and smaller Brahmos in principle cannot be ruled out.
it is well within capability of ilyushin or antonov to make a modern turboprop replacement for the Tu142 with all the creature comforts and capability. its about time they got serious on this. dont they want some form of airborne ASW? not every situation can be resolved with a salvo of topols you know.
there is no need for the high speed of the tu142 design, but rather a capacious fuselage with room for a 2nd crew and a 15-hr endurance with 6 heavy weapons and couple 100 sonobuoys would be good enough.
Singha Tuplov has proposed a new MPA based on Tu-214 platform here are the details
Tupolev offer Tu-214 patrol aircraft to Russian M.O.D.
MOSCOW Dec 31
The Tupolev Company is offering a patrol aircraft based on the Tupolev Tu-214 commercial jetliner’s platform to the Russian Defense Ministry, Tupolev President Alexander Bobryshev told Interfax-AVN.
“It is planned to create a patrol aircraft on the Tu-214 platform.
The prospective aircraft will have two PS-90A engines with improved parameters,” he said.
The Tu-214 is a reliable jet with extended flight duration and range, Bobryshev said.
The Tupolev Design Bureau worked out a Tu-204P patrol ship based on the Tu-214 platform in the 1990s. The Defense Ministry approved the project in 1998, and navy pilots made a Tu-214 show flight in 1998. The project was mothballed in 2000 because of a lack of funds.
The prospective plane will accomplish close-and medium-range missions. It is due to replace the Ilyushin Il-38 and the Tupolev Tu-142 the navy is currently using.
^^Interesting. So even the russkies are thinking of migrating to jets like the khans did to P-8 from P-3. My noob mind doesn't quite grasp it though. No jet can provide the low-altitude low speed capability of the P-3/Il-38/Tu-142. Isn't that important for ASW/Martitime surveilance?
Actually the Sensor Suite of P-8I is quite well developed that it really does not need the low altitude speed of P-3C orion , so a smaller fleet of P-8I can cover much larger area compared to slower but larger fleet of P-3C
^^Thanks for the clarification. Although the P-8I will still have its inherent range limitation especially compared to the Bear. The IN must have weighed this against the advantages offered and found the tradeoff acceptable I guess.
Austin wrote:Actually the Sensor Suite of P-8I is quite well developed that it really does not need the low altitude speed of P-3C orion , so a smaller fleet of P-8I can cover much larger area compared to slower but larger fleet of P-3C
If the P8 has to fly higher, it will present a longer range and juicier target.
chetak wrote:If the P8 has to fly higher, it will present a longer range and juicier target.
Yes but it is always a give and take you loose something in return to gain , the MPA relatively are any ways slow and big target , they need some aircover when they patrol in not so peace time situations.
chetak wrote:If the P8 has to fly higher, it will present a longer range and juicier target.
Yes but it is always a give and take you loose something in return to gain , the MPA relatively are any ways slow and big target , they need some aircover when they patrol in not so peace time situations.
If the P8 is at more risk, what have you gained?
The costlier the asset, the more cautious you will be to deploy it because of smaller numbers provisioned.
First I'm hearing of any air cover for MPA.
Sort of defeats the very purpose of the MPA, if it has to be escorted by higher flying air cover. Like carrying an advertising beacon.
Not to talk of the range, speed and endurance mismatch.
MPA do need aircover during the time of conflict as ideally they would like to work in coordination with ships subs and friendly submarine to hunt enemy subs or surface asset , air cover does not mean they need to be accompained by fighter but to ensure air assets are available to provide protection as they cannot defend them self against enemy fighter, these can be provided by CBG at sea or from land
Its only during peace time ops they tend to go alone on patrol mission.
The only low risk option for a high value asset like P-8I is to not fly at all for the rest risk is part of any flying mission
FROM THE QAID-E-AZZAM HIMSELF!!!! by Dr. Manmohan Singh on Thursday, August 12, 2010 at 7:48am
New Delhi: India's warships will be on a two-month long deployment in African coast when they will hold a trilateral exercise with navies of Brazil and South Africa, apart from carrying out anti-piracy patrols in Mauritius and Seychelles beginning this weekend. Four warships including a destroyer and two frigates from the Navy's Western Fleet would be deployed in the Indian Ocean Region when they would also visit Kenya, Tanzania, Mozambique and South Africa, where the biennial IBSAMAR (India-Brazil-South Africa Maritime) exercise will be held.
A senior Navy officer said here today that the deployment would provide the Indian Navy "good opportunity to re-establish and further relations" with the navies of the African continent in areas of training and passage exercises.
Indian naval destroyer INS Mysore, frigates INS Tabar and INS Ganga along with tanker INS Aditya would be sailing there when they would also patrol the Exclusive Economic Zones of Mauritius and Seychelles and carry out anti-piracy operations.
Brazil will participate in the IBSAMAR exercise with its warships, while South Africa would bring their submarines.
During the IBSAMAR exercise, to be held in September, the three navies would also perform anti-air, anti-submarine, visit-board-search-seize operations apart from other naval warfare manoeuvres such as fuelling in mid sea.
This will be the second edition of IBSAMAR.
The first edition was held in 2008. This year's exercise will be much more complex than the previous one," the officer added. This time though there would be no aerial fleet of the Indian Navy participating in the IBSAMAR exercise, though South Africa would be bringing in their aircraft, he added.
IBSAMAR would be held around the South African coast and there would be visits to Durban, Cape Town, Simon's Town and Port Elizabeth as part of the exercise. India will be the lead Navy for this edition of IBSAMAR and Brazil will take upon the role in the next edition to be held in 2012. "The exercise is to develop interoperability among the three navies so that they could carry out joint operations during times of need in the high seas," the officer said.
The western board deployment of the Navy comes a month after its warships from the eastern fleet had gone on a two-month voyage to south east Asian countries and Australia, when they called on ports in Indonesia, Thailand, Malaysia, Vietnam, Singapore, and Brunei.
Guys, don't get too excited by the picture of R22. It was taken during Malabar 05 so it is old. Chances are that some of the SHAR's in the pic no longer exist.
These two reports illustrate the longevity of certain weapon systems,firstly the carrier and secodnly the long range bomber.
1.The carrier:
I have been advocating for aeons that we build all warships of 10,000t+ and above as flat tops simply because this allows the vessel to have almost limitless life,as she can simply induct the latest aircraft or helo appropriate for her size and task.The Viraat/Hermes' history is a long and celebrated one,too well known to be repeated here.She can sail for at least another decade if her hull is fine,keep on upgrading weapons and sensors and use UCAVs,new STOVL fighters when available and more modern heavy multi-role helos like the NH-90,Merlin,etc.Her size also makes it more difficult to sink her requiring several hits from missiles or torpedoes.Achieving this on conventionally designed surface ships is far more difficult due to the placement of sensors and weapon systems and the lack of adequate space for the same.It is why a carrier can soldier on for 50 years like the Viraat,while a modern surface warship usually has a lifespan of not more than 25 years.
2.The Bomber:
With newer PGMs and longer ranged missiles available,a heavy bomber like the B-52 and Tu-142 are still relevant today.With long-range fighter cover ,plus in-flight refuelling also available,these two bombers as well as our old Canberras,sadly being dumped,are of immense use still.The carrying capacity of just one TU-142 (8 Brahmos) shows that we can with our TU-142 fleet,sanitise a goodly part of the IOR,especially the entrances to it at long range even as far as S.Africa! This is an immense capability and we should not ignore it just because the aircraft are old.With engine and other upgrades they too can easily serve for another decade .Their intended replacements,the P-8s do not have such endurance and weaponload and need to be augmented with several medium sized turbo-prop ASW/MRPs for the "low and slow" role.The P-8 has to carry special wing kits for its torps and its capability is at yet unknown.What the IN should do immediately is to acquire a few more Il-38s and TU-142s which Russia has in mothballed stock,so that we have extra aircraft for use in any crisis apart from adding to numbers and capabilities.Armed with Brahmos and future LR cruise missiles one can imagine the reach and lethality of IN's "long arm" and "fist"!
The extra moolah for the Scorpene is both welcome and depressing,for here we have yet another instance of GOI/MOD stupidity in finalising a deal which took two govts. to decide upon! Who is to blame for the extra cost,a further extra demanded by the French after the Congress took over,to which PC when Fin.Min. strongly objected too.This is not a case like the Gorshkov,where a cruiser/carrier was to be modernised into a true flat top,for which a poor analysis was done by both sides despite years of negotitations,lack of drawings and a v.poor estimate of its ultimate cost,but the Scorpenes are NEW subs,for which every weld,screw and rivet can be accounted for.
The extra costs affecting almost every foreign defence deal,some which also include poor perfromance needs to be looked into v.seriously by the MOD,which is showcasing its incompetence not from time to time but on a regular basis.
Naval version of PAK-FA on the cards.. probably more for the IAC 2 than the Gorshkov..
The aircraft is designed to be a major element in future armaments sales by Russia's state-owned Rosobornekhsport program. Sukhoi OKB director Mikhail Pogosian has predicted that Rosobornekhsport 1,000 aircraft over the next four decades. As the Sukhoi PAK FA T-50 is a joint venture with India, the Russian and Indian air forces will be the initial recipients of two hundred fighters apiece, with an additional six hundred being manufactured for export. Initial deployment is planned for 2015. A naval version of the Sukhoi T-50 PAK FA will be eventually deployed on the Russian aircraft carrier Admiral Kuznetsov and future Russian aircraft carriers, as well as India's former Soviet carrier Admiral Gorshkov, currently undergoing a lengthy refit in Russia's Sevmash shipyard. The Admiral Gorshkov, a modified Kiev-class Soviet aircraft carrier, was purchased in 2004 by India and after refitting will enter the Indian Navy as INS Vikramaditya.
With the recent refurbishment of Tu-142 in progress and extension of life by atleast 15 years and other upgrades , its a good indication that Tu-142M will serve the IN till atleast 2025.
In Yefim Gordon Book Russian Air Power , it has been mentioned that the Novella ( Sea Dragon of IN ) upgrade is a very effective but also a very expensive upgrade , it seems the cost of Novella upgrade is more than the cost of IL-38 aircraft which is a deterrent.
It would be good if we could keep the Tu-142M in service till atleast 20 years by giving all a Sea Dragon upgrade where it can serve along with P-8I , its younger cousin the Tu-95MS is any way slated to be in service till 2040.
The logic of ‘regional’ versus ‘extraregional’ can easily be turned against India, as Malaysia and Indonesia demonstrated when India claimed a stake in securing the Strait of Malacca.
The logic of ‘regional’ versus ‘extraregional’ can easily be turned against India, as Malaysia and Indonesia demonstrated when India claimed a stake in securing the Strait of Malacca.
What is this about?
The malacca straits have historically, from the time european imperialism ended in asia, been patrolled by the triparty Malaysia-Indonesia-Singapore. Any external power, be it India or US or China or Japan or any other european country, has faced resistance from these countries, when it sought to put itself into a "policing role" of these straits.
Let me diagress a bit, these straits have been a hot bed for piracy. Not on the scale of the yemeni piracy, but still big. Also through these straits a massive amount of oil, gas and trade flows through. It is rumoured that about 75% of China's oil and gas flows through these waters. Off course there are alternatives to these straits, some natural and some human proposed (for example the proposed canal/train/pipeline across the Kra Isthmus aka The Devil's Neck). But the problem is that the alternatives put an immense economic cost to those using it.
Now India sits at the north of these straits, due to andaman and nicobar islands. Nicobar is not far off from Aceh province of Indonesia. Aceh has a troubled relationship with indonesia, with an insurgency lasting for more than 50 years. So there are some in India, which believe that India should also have a role to play in patrolling these straits. This will be resisted very strongly by indonesia and somewhat strongly by malaysia.
India and Indonesia have cordial and good relationship. But there is also an element of competition between them. In the early 1960s and upto 1970s, Indonesia sought to rename the "Indian Ocean" to "Indonesian Ocean". Indonesia was one of the few countries in 1971 which helped Pakistan with material in its war with pakistan.
Hain? Is this true? IAF must be green with envy.
