Indian Naval Discussion

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Aug 2009 00:46

john, those will be very short-legged vessels, good enough for the UAE perhaps but not nearly enough for IN when you have to sanitise 2 seas and an ocean with only a handful of MPA assets.
ability to operate alone for extended periods of time and number of rounds carried on-board also plays a part IMO. the P28 is more a frigate than a corvette.

incidentally, IN has gotten into this USNesque habit of categorising ship classes as one below what they really are. case in point, the kashins are 'destroyers' while the much heavier P17s are 'frigates' !
and the P28 of course.

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 02 Aug 2009 01:02

IN has gotten into this USNesque habit of categorising ship classes as one below what they really are.

Could be worse. At least they don't follow the naming habits of the JMSDF where this beast is a "destroyer"

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 02 Aug 2009 01:15

at least the japanese have their militant anti-militarists as excuse, what excuse do the koreans have of calling this a destroyer ?
this is probably the most powerful surface vessel in the world at the moment, not counting carriers. even the americans categorise their similar ships(tico's) as cruisers !

Gerard · Post by **Gerard** » 02 Aug 2009 01:54

128 cell VLS

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 02 Aug 2009 03:01

The Lada class (amur 1650) seems like the sub to go with, perhaps with the Siemens AIP that the IN now seems to favor (according to Aroor anyway). The S1000 seems too small and hardly a proper follow on to the much bigger Kilo. JMT

CM.

Omar · Post by **Omar** » 02 Aug 2009 03:16

First, Dr Pillai says the submarine-launched BrahMos is "ready in every way" and that the only requiremet now is a platform to test it. Now, for the facts. The submarine-launched BrahMos is indeed ready for platform tests. Last year, the Navy offered one of its Kilo-class submarines to BrahMos for a test. After deliberations with the Navy, BrahMos finally decided that testing on a Kilo-class boat was not a viable option -- the platforms are not new, and are a good way into their operational life. The Navy accepted this, and came up with another idea: that BrahMos should plan for integration tests on the fifth and sixth Scorpene submarines being built by Mazagon Docks. This was almost immediately turned down obviously -- first, the fifth and sixth Scorpene's would be delivered well into the next decade, and two, the Russians don't want to install the BrahMos on French platforms to kick off the sub-launched version. Obviously the Russians have their own ulterior motives...

Next week, a large team from Russia will land in India for their first extensive bilateral discussions on the Amur-class submarine as the Indian Navy's possible choice of boat for its second line of submarines at Mazagon Docks (a line that will run parallel to the Scorpene line). The Russian component of BrahMos (NPOM) is extremely keen that the BrahMos be integrated tested on an Amur boat before any other -- it has offered BrahMos an Amur for tests already.

Source: http://livefist.blogspot.com/2008/02/li ... os_14.html

After the induction of Nerpa or the Arihant, India might finally have a platform for testing the submarine launched version of Brahmos.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 02 Aug 2009 04:04

That seems to have been constructed out of Singha's dreams

Wow - I love that they do not go with puny 76 mm nonsense - main gun is a main gun

Sigh if only we tied up with them.

John · Post by **John** » 02 Aug 2009 06:17

Rahul M wrote:john, those will be very short-legged vessels, good enough for the UAE perhaps but not nearly enough for IN when you have to sanitise 2 seas and an ocean with only a handful of MPA assets.
ability to operate alone for extended periods of time and number of rounds carried on-board also plays a part IMO. the P28 is more a frigate than a corvette.

incidentally, IN has gotten into this USNesque habit of categorising ship classes as one below what they really are. case in point, the kashins are 'destroyers' while the much heavier P17s are 'frigates' !
and the P28 of course.

From what i understand Kashin designation as destroyer primarily was because soviets classified them as guided missile destroyers where as Krivak were classified as Frigates.

As for UAE's corvette they have pretty good range around 1500 nm and should satisfy the ASW purpose. Just trying to find cheaper alternative for single purpose class of corvettes.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 02 Aug 2009 07:27

soko has the problem of having to fight inshore with noko and that applies to all assets. they dont have
enemies further afield.

with land based assets targeted severely by noko missiles, artillery and suicidal cave dwelling soldiers,
perhaps the idea is use the KDX3 as a mobile C3I command node and enough of SAMs to protect cities
from the sea areas close by.

meantime, the RoKAF+usaf will set about giving the Noko AF a sound hiding and clear the skies
for ground attack sorties to begin in earnest.

negi · Post by **negi** » 02 Aug 2009 08:13

Surya wrote: Sigh if only we tied up with them.

Boss SoKo and Jpn are US munnas look at their fleet almost 90% of the content of any platform is US infact even the in house developed missiles and Tanks are actually upgraded version of US equipment. JV or a tieup with SoKo won't come without Unkil's consent.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 03 Aug 2009 06:23

India has tech for n-warship

INS Vikrant may sink soon

Paul · Post by **Paul** » 03 Aug 2009 08:07

Rahul M wrote:at least the japanese have their militant anti-militarists as excuse, what excuse do the koreans have of calling this a destroyer ?
this is probably the most powerful surface vessel in the world at the moment, not counting carriers. even the americans categorise their similar ships(tico's) as cruisers !

The pakis OTOH call this corvetter class vessel a frigate.

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 04 Aug 2009 00:25

Gagan wrote:Guys in the time (5 Mins) of me posting that info on the S 1000 sub from Wikipedia, I find that that page has been edited and now points to the fincantieri page for the specs. Apparantly wikipedia editors are at it round the clock.

Yup... we never sleep. We never rest. We never fail.

There are a small group of us editors on wiki who do these India and Defence related pages. BR is usually the first point of reference... so much so that there was a huge discussion over whether BR is reliable or not. Plus, even among non-indian editors, BR is a very very popular source/reference.

Anyway, we need help from experts... since most of the editors aren't experts, if u are on wiki, and notice an error, edit it by clicking on the [edit] button... it takes a minute only. Else, put a notice on the wikipedia thread on BRF please... yes, there is indeed a wikipedia thread here.

KrishG · Post by **KrishG** » 04 Aug 2009 01:19

I was just surfing about conventional subs and found this ------------------

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/BMT/bmt_media/b ... ppA4ds.pdf

The sub is called Vidar-36. It's a concept waiting from investment just like S1000. This is the biggest conventional sub that I know of.

Specifications --------
Length - 79m (overall)
Beam - 8.4m (maximum)
Submerged displacement - 3,600 te
Operating depth - 200m+
Propulsion - Diesel Electric, with AIP options
Maximum submerged speed - 20 knots
Range - 9,000nm (snorting) with extended range options
Sensors -
Active and passive cylindrical, flank and intercept arrays,
reelable towed-array, mine and obstacle avoidance sonar
and optronic, radar and CESM masts
Torpedo tubes - Six (21”)
Weapons - Up to 18 (including heavyweight torpedoes, anti-ship and land attack missiles)
Mines - Up to 36
Special forces - Five-to-ten-man lock-in lock-out facilities plus special forces mission packages
Masts -
Eight modular mast bays for optronic masts, radar, CESM,
satellite and integrated comms masts
UUV capability
Launch,operation and recovery of autonomous and tethered
unmanned underwater vehicles
Communications - Satellite and integrated comms; buoyant wire aerial, underwater telephone, with VHF comm options

As the British Naval doctrine allows RN only to have Nuclear subs, would be of any interest to IN ??

sunilUpa · Post by **sunilUpa** » 04 Aug 2009 04:14

X Posting

Double Order from India and UAE for Fincantieri

The Indian Navy, on the other hand, has exercised its option for a second fleet tanker which was included in the contract signed in 2008, with delivery in the last half of 2011, a sister ship to the first fleet tanker currently under construction and due for delivery in 2010.

Fincantieri has been following the Indian market closely. Following delivery in 2007 of the Sagar Nidhi, an oceanographic vessel for the National Institute of Ocean Technology (NIOT) of Madras, the company has continued its co-operation – drawing on the strength of its experience building the Cavour, the flagship of the Italian Navy – with the shipyard of Cochin for the design of the engine, technology transfer and the provision of complementary services for the construction of the Indigenous Aircraft Carrier (IAC) currently under construction. Fincantieri has completed the functional and detailed design of the propulsion system and assistance at the Indian shipyard is soon due to start up.

Commenting on the announcement of the orders, Giuseppe Bono, Chief Executive Officer of Fincantieri said: “We are beginning to reap what we have sown. These important orders constitute for our Group a significant signal of recovery in the naval export market, especially in view of the current crisis. They come on the heels of the recent awarding of the first orders in the Littoral Combat Ship program which involves our shipyards in the USA, and confirm that the company was right to take the strategic decision to be present in all sectors, from civilian to military.”

Since January this year Fincantieri has gained orders in the naval sector for a total value of over 500 million Euros.

-- The Indian fleet tanker on the other hand will be 175 metres long, 25 m broad, for a height of 19 metres and have a displacement at full load of 27,500 tonnes. Powered by two diesel engines of 10,000 kW the ship will be able to reach a maximum speed of 20 knots.

As for the first fleet tanker, the propulsion system will be made up of a shaft with an adjustable pitch propeller and the vessel will have a flight deck for medium-heavy helicopters (up to 10 tons). Thanks to her double hatches, it will be possible to carry out refueling of four ships at the same time. She will be able to accommodate approximately 250 people, including crew and supplementary personnel.

Last but not least she will feature a double hull, which can guarantee greater protection of the fuel tanks against the risk of pollution in case of collision or damage, in accordance with the new Marpol environmental protection regulations of the International Maritime Organization.

JaiS · Post by **JaiS** » 04 Aug 2009 05:31

Indian Navy exercises with French and Royal Navies

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Aug 2009 07:13

krish, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C5%8Dry% ... _submarine

Displacement: 2,900 t (2,854 long tons) surfaced
4,200 t (4,134 long tons) submerged

this one actually exists, as in it's not a paper project.

Sanjay M · Post by **Sanjay M** » 04 Aug 2009 09:57

NDTV vid on INS Jalashwa (formerly USS Trenton)

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Aug 2009 18:04

from LIVEFIST.
http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/08/ph ... rpedo.html

Dated photos from HAL of the ALH Dhruv Navy (which won't see service, sadly) conducting air-launched torpedo tests off Visakhapatnam.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 04 Aug 2009 18:07

No gurus have commented on Ajai shuklas article :
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/08/ ... -anti.html

Finally, vertically launched missiles are likely to be mounted for engaging surface targets.

He seems pretty sure that there will be some AShM but is very quiet on SAM's?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 04 Aug 2009 18:09

already posted and discussed in last page.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 06 Aug 2009 05:46

Russian shipyard seeks $60 mln loan to complete Indian frigates
The Russian Yantar shipyard is negotiating a $60 million loan to enable it to complete the construction of three frigates for the Indian Navy, the company director said on Wednesday.
Russia is building three Project 11356 Krivak IV class guided missile frigates for the Indian Navy under a $1.6 billion contract signed in July, 2006.
Igor Orlov said the shipyard had previously taken out a $110 million loan from Russian national development bank Vnesheconombank (VEB) but was now forced to seek an additional $60 million loan due to "financial constraints."
He added that the problems had been caused by fluctuations in the ruble-to-dollar exchange rate.
All of the new frigates will be armed with eight BrahMos supersonic anti-ship cruise missile systems and not the Club-N/3M54TE missile system, which was installed on previous frigates.

narmad · Post by **narmad** » 06 Aug 2009 05:51

Armed forces to induct 800 choppers in next few years
Rajat Pandit, TNN 6 August 2009, 12:09am IST

Yet another helicopter deal was approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security on Tuesday evening, with the around Rs 950 crore acquisition of five Russian Kamov-31 early-warning helicopters getting the final nod, said sources.
The contract for Ka-31s, which will bolster Navy's long-range capability to detect airborne and surface ship threats, is to be inked in a month or so.

Navy already has nine Ka-31 helicopters, inducted in 2003-2004, which operate from its solitary aircraft carrier INS Viraat and three Talwar-class "stealthy" guided-missile frigates as well as shore-based air stations.

John · Post by **John** » 06 Aug 2009 05:58

vavinash wrote:No gurus have commented on Ajai shuklas article :
http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/2009/08/ ... -anti.html

Finally, vertically launched missiles are likely to be mounted for engaging surface targets.

He seems pretty sure that there will be some AShM but is very quiet on SAM's?

FYI it is mistake in the article they are referring to air targets not surface targets and vertically launched missile system is Barak.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 06 Aug 2009 08:38

Col shukla seemed quiet certain its not Barak-1, which would be air defence missile.

VLS missile: This is indeed HOT NEWS, as fighterclass colourfully puts it. Type of missile: not decided.

Sonar: Hamza mounted on nose and towed array at the rear.

Follow on vessels: The current thinking is that they would go into Project 28A after the first four.

Air Defence: NO COMMENT.

Will the ship be ready by 2012? My guess is that it will. They seem to have dealt already with all the serious delays, except for the Diesel Alternators.

Thanks!

John · Post by **John** » 06 Aug 2009 09:04

The model of P-28 shows Barak-1 (even has the FCR for it) and everything else matches the description in the article. Models can be wrong, but i don't see the VLS missile being Brahmos or Klub due to amount of deck penetration needed (there is not enough room between the bow and the deck). Unless the design is far different than what we have seen.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Aug 2009 10:02

Agreement on extra $1.2 Bln for Admiral Gorshkov project may be reached soon – ( Source: Interfax-AVN )

A positive decision regarding a request to increase the budget of efforts to repair and modernize the heavy aircraft carrying cruiser Admiral Gorshkov can be taken in the near future, a source close to the negotiations told Interfax-AVN on Friday.

“We hope that a final agreement will be achieved with our Indian partners during upcoming talks in August to allocate an extra $1.2 billion to repair and modernize the aircraft carrying cruiser Admiral Gorshkov,” the source said.

The Indian defense minister’s aide Pallam Raji has said the Indian authorities are ready to consider Russia’s proposal to raise the price of the deal, he said.

“We are satisfied that the most problematic issue of Russian-Indian military technological cooperation will be resolved finally. We will be able to finish all ship-related efforts and to hand it over to the customer in 2012 according to schedule,” the source said.

The contract was signed in 2004 and was initially estimated at $1.5 billion, he said.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Aug 2009 10:51

Austin wrote:Agreement on extra $1.2 Bln for Admiral Gorshkov project may be reached soon – ( Source: Interfax-AVN )

A positive decision regarding a request to increase the budget of efforts to repair and modernize the heavy aircraft carrying cruiser Admiral Gorshkov can be taken in the near future, a source close to the negotiations told Interfax-AVN on Friday.

“We hope that a final agreement will be achieved with our Indian partners during upcoming talks in August to allocate an extra $1.2 billion to repair and modernize the aircraft carrying cruiser Admiral Gorshkov,” the source said.

The Indian defense minister’s aide Pallam Raji has said the Indian authorities are ready to consider Russia’s proposal to raise the price of the deal, he said.

“We are satisfied that the most problematic issue of Russian-Indian military technological cooperation will be resolved finally. We will be able to finish all ship-related efforts and to hand it over to the customer in 2012 according to schedule,” the source said.

The contract was signed in 2004 and was initially estimated at $1.5 billion, he said.

Man, I sure hope so. This soap opera put the "bold and beautiful" to shame. But $ 2.7 billion for a fully refurbed carrier with 16 latest MiG-29ks plus support and training sounds really good.

CM.

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 06 Aug 2009 10:53

Hope they get to some agreement soon. And also hope we can get info on what all it will have.

Austin · Post by **Austin** » 06 Aug 2009 12:55

krishnan wrote:Hope they get to some agreement soon. And also hope we can get info on what all it will have.

Initial info that we have is it will have aircraft , missile and radar

krishnan · Post by **krishnan** » 06 Aug 2009 13:24

And crewmen

and some crewwomen

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 06 Aug 2009 15:25

Cain Marko wrote:Man, I sure hope so. This soap opera put the "bold and beautiful" to shame. But $ 2.7 billion for a fully refurbed carrier with 16 latest MiG-29ks plus support and training sounds really good.

No it isn't good, an old carrier with half the life costs the same as new carrier is called a rip off.

vavinash · Post by **vavinash** » 06 Aug 2009 18:17

The cost of gorky alone is about 2.1 bil (hopefully with kashtan-M etc). If you can get another AC with same displacement for that price let us know, IN will be very interested. Cavour cost the same and is half the displacement and will need costlier STOVL air crafts.

Sanku · Post by **Sanku** » 06 Aug 2009 19:36

As the CNS said, he has his cheque book out and will happily sign one for the price if someone gets him another AC

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 06 Aug 2009 22:56

Hilarious! this "old" ship crap again. They are stripping it down to the very skeleton. We see how well the "old" Hermes is doing don't we? Btw, last I checked, a carrier like the Cavour cost about 1.4 billion euros (2+ b USD) WITHOUT the aircraft complement. Sorry, no new carrier (or old) is coming at that price.

No wonder the CNS said what he did.

CM.

Surya · Post by **Surya** » 06 Aug 2009 23:04

My bigger gripe than the money is - I want the the damn carrier by the time all my Mig 29s are here.

If the Mig 29s are going to f@rt around practicing of a mock decks while the carrier takes 2 more years than that will be sad.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 07 Aug 2009 04:20

India ready to build nuke aircraft carrier: Kakodkar

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 07 Aug 2009 06:43

vavinash wrote:The cost of gorky alone is about 2.1 bil (hopefully with kashtan-M etc). If you can get another AC with same displacement for that price let us know, IN will be very interested. Cavour cost the same and is half the displacement and will need costlier STOVL air crafts.

How about you compare it to ADS which is 37500 ton? It isn't 44000 ton but not half. If are interested in buying a carrier why not buy gorky itself? I mean what are you waiting for? You can raise the offer by 25% and Russia will sell it to you instead.

abhiti · Post by **abhiti** » 07 Aug 2009 06:51

Cain Marko wrote:Hilarious! this "old" ship crap again. They are stripping it down to the very skeleton. We see how well the "old" Hermes is doing don't we? Btw, last I checked, a carrier like the Cavour cost about 1.4 billion euros (2+ b USD) WITHOUT the aircraft complement. Sorry, no new carrier (or old) is coming at that price.

Russian equipment doesn't cost the same as European. Better comparision is ADS being built in India. And if it is indeed "like new" why does it have half the life?

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 07 Aug 2009 07:33

Govt approves acquisition of Russian Kamov-31 choppers

New Delhi, Aug 6 (PTI) In a bid to strengthen the Navy's capabilities to detect airborne and surface-based maritime threats, Government has approved the acquisition of five Russian Kamov-31 early warning choppers.

Defence Ministry officials said the Cabinet Committee of Security (CCS) at a meeting on Tuesday gave its approval for procuring these choppers, which can track 30-40 targets on ground and air simultaneously with its airborne electronic warfare radar, mounted on the underbelly of the chopper.

The deal for the five choppers between India and Russia is expected to be signed in the next couple of months, they said.

Navy already has a fleet of nine Ka-31 helicopters, which are deployed on India's only aircraft carrier INS Virat and the Talwar Class Guided Missile frigates of the Navy. They are also operated from Navy's shore based air stations.