Indian Naval Discussion

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 28 Oct 2009 19:45

negi bhai...

the issue is not soo much about how obsolete the ops room of virrat is ... the question is who mans the ops room.. is it only the missile / gunnery officers ? or folks from other specialities as well? and who from a ship can distuingish between a 'ops room' and 'machinery room' ?

Raja Bose · Post by **Raja Bose** » 28 Oct 2009 21:18

negi-uddin, It has changed a wee bit I should say. Anyhow since everybody is into uncles...the uncle who presided over my "tour" was my real uncle (atleast in bong terms).

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 28 Oct 2009 23:56

George J wrote:
chetak wrote:...........Incidentally there are many Electrical officers who are also Divers and at least two I know of who are also lawyers......The techies are often very much better at logistics than the logistics guys. They have to be because the shoe pinches them the most.....Though not generally admitted, often the techies do a lot of hand holding during actual ops.
Are you talking about Diving the badge or Diving the specialty ? There are jingos whose "uncles" are submariners who also are divers IIRC...i.e a "badge", the submariner "uncle" was trained in the Diving school which is run by the folks who chose Diving specialty. And by logistics I am guessing its all the fine folks who goto INS Hamla and learn how to bake a cake or do IT-Vity and Payroll. Hamla is the place for logistics.

The logistics guys do not handle payroll and have not done so for many decades now. I fail to understand or appreciate your condescending attitude.

In some earlier time they did handle the actual disbursement of money collected from the RBI etc( this was invariably outsourced to other departmental officers who actually paid out the sailors based on payrolls prepared by the NAVPAY). Now a days it simply goes to the bank for everyone.

Learning to " bake a cake " and other mundane activities are of vital importance on a ship. Mutinies have occurred for less though not in the IN. Good and tasty food is critical and is a major issue with everyone on board the ship. At sea, the focus is solely on work, food and sleep, in that order.

AFAIK, non Diving branch specialty folks training stops at the "ships divers" stage and generally its only this variety is usually present on board any ship. This lot is trained to carry out bottom searches for limpet mines, clear obstructions in underwater cooling intakes, clear propellers when fouling is suspected or present etc etc. They can also carry out rudimentary underwater welding in an emergency. These " badge " divers in your description are very highly trained and competent folks and can be from any branch and usually are.
Even the training for this first stage is long, hard, grueling and often harsh. There is a high washout rate that gets even higher progressing to the clearance divers stage and beyond.

The Diving specialty has clearance divers and other exotic beasts who are used for enemy harbor attacks and suchlike covert activities and are trained like and used like USN SEALS.

The IN pioneers in this trade were indeed trained by the USN.

There are jingos whose "uncles" are submariners who also are divers IIRC...i.e a "badge", the submariner "uncle" was trained in the Diving school

Submariner uncles are trained only at INS Sathavana in Vizag.

The establishment has a special diving bell that is used to train submariner uncles in underwater escape techniques.

The submariner uncles AFAIK, do not do a stint at the Diving school
as their training in Vizag is comprehensive and complete.

Gagan · Post by **Gagan** » 29 Oct 2009 01:49

What are these covered openings on the tabar? This is on the platform where the Shitl missile system is located. The Main Gun's enclosure is visible.

SNaik · Post by **SNaik** » 29 Oct 2009 02:14

Missile loading hatches

harbans · Post by **harbans** » 29 Oct 2009 02:34

Missile loading hatches

And the snaked pipe with the red painted tip is a spray nozzle for an AFF fire fighting system. Once can see 3 at least in the pic.

George J · Post by **George J** » 29 Oct 2009 08:32

Philip wrote:George,it was quite a while ago and at that time pics were taboo,for obvious reasons.Strangely,being the first time we got permission thanks to a senior naval officer,we never even asked! ................ I'm sure.Navy Day is fast approaching and ships and installations are usually thrown open to the public.A good time for a visit.

I completely understand the circumstances, like I said in my very first post in this topic, I never knew such a place existed before 2005 and I did have my camera with me and it was a strict no no (Even when I was allowed to take pics, this is what I was told "You can take pictures but you cannot post it on that internet site of yours."). That's why Ajai's Open Source pics are so precious and flippant ignorant comments really gets me irritated specially when people retort with shiny brochures.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Oct 2009 09:55

George J,

It is time you all calm down.

As Jagan has said, you have your view and others have theirs.

Leave it to others to decide for themselves!

In a forum there will be flippant and ignorant remarks and so will there be pseudo intellectual knowledgeable remarks.

So long it (either type of remarks) tickles the mind to check back for themselves, the posts would have served their purpose.

I take it that you are in Bombay. Visit a ship and check back and then tell us all about it.

On Navy Day, the ships can be visited and seen. At the Navy Ball, one can see the shapes!

But if you are a naval chap, openly say so.

George J · Post by **George J** » 29 Oct 2009 10:26

Nope....Navy is ghar-ki-murgi......I only like MKI. I will agree to whatever tall tale tsarkar tells if he can get me back to Lohegaon....Engine room...laundry room....all fine.

But I like cake.....those Hamla trained chefs can sure bake a good cake (IAF chaps only serve you nimbupani...but sipping nimbupani while ogling at MKI is as good as Navy Cake). I never really liked the Navy.... too much climbing up and down those steep ladders is not good for my back. And getting stuck inside an upgraded Kilo was not very helpful either...I tell you I am getting old.

You really think I got excited for no apparent reason about the first open source Ops Room pic just because I dreamed it up?? Really Ray?

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Oct 2009 11:49

George J wrote:Nope....Navy is ghar-ki-murgi......I only like MKI. I will agree to whatever tall tale tsarkar tells if he can get me back to Lohegaon....Engine room...laundry room....all fine.

But I like cake.....those Hamla trained chefs can sure bake a good cake (IAF chaps only serve you nimbupani...but sipping nimbupani while ogling at MKI is as good as Navy Cake). I never really liked the Navy.... too much climbing up and down those steep ladders is not good for my back. And getting stuck inside an upgraded Kilo was not very helpful either...I tell you I am getting old.

You really think I got excited for no apparent reason about the first open source Ops Room pic just because I dreamed it up?? Really Ray?

GeorgeJ,

I think You should understand what I have stated.

Can you take it easy.

How is one bothered if you like cake or if you were the one who pushes ATF into an MKI?

Some semblance of order is required.

I have flown a Dakota on Auto pilot and also a helicopter level and steady 20 minutes! I have also baked a cake! What of it?

Take it easy or else I will have to press the button below!

I leave this thread alone since though I have been on a ship and my folks were in the IN, I can't say I know all about it!

Let us not denigrate people.

If we know more, let us use our knowledge and and NOT go gung ho without proof!

May I inform you that be good enough not to force my hand!

May I now say - Watch it!

Don't cross the Rubicon!

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Oct 2009 17:58

US defence co signs accords with Indian defence PSUs

US defence major Boeing Integrated Defence Systems has signed agreements with Indian defence public sector companies for supplying equipment to it for being fitted on Indian P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft.

"We have signed agreements with Indian companies such as Bharat Electronics Limited (BEL), Electronic Corporation of India Limited (ECIL) and Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) for supplying equipment to us for the Indian P-8Is to be built in the US," Boeing India head Vivek Lall said here.

"They will be supplying indigenous equipment and spares such as transponders and other electronic equipment for the aircraft," he added.

The agreements have been done as part of the offsets commitments in the deal. As per the Defence Procurement Procedure, for any deal worth over Rs 300 crore, the selected vendor has to reinvest a minimum of 30 per cent of the deal's worth in Indian defence industry.

India signed a deal worth USD 2.1 billion with Boeing on January 1 this year for supplying eight P-8I maritime surveillance aircraft to the Navy for replacing and augmenting its ageing fleet of Russian origin reconnaissance aircraft.

Bureau Report

sevoke · Post by **sevoke** » 29 Oct 2009 18:12

George J wrote:Nope....Navy is ghar-ki-murgi......I only like MKI. I will agree to whatever tall tale tsarkar tells if he can get me back to Lohegaon....Engine room...laundry room....all fine.

But I like cake.....those Hamla trained chefs can sure bake a good cake (IAF chaps only serve you nimbupani...but sipping nimbupani while ogling at MKI is as good as Navy Cake). I never really liked the Navy.... too much climbing up and down those steep ladders is not good for my back. And getting stuck inside an upgraded Kilo was not very helpful either...I tell you I am getting old.

You really think I got excited for no apparent reason about the first open source Ops Room pic just because I dreamed it up?? Really Ray?

George J, Gaarje saar, please enlighten us your stature in the services or the ministry. You seem to have access to all defense establishments and have been served condiments by "those chefs" or "that chap". Too many cryptic clues in your posts; we know you're HINTING BIG TIME but most of us either dont give a f@$# or find it annoying. So stop being a puzzle edited and post straight talk. And if you're getting old I suggest you not meet Tsarkar for a beer because there's an a$$ whooping in order for you after that and thats not good for your back either!

Gaur · Post by **Gaur** » 29 Oct 2009 18:24

^^

But I think you may get some flak for this. George J is a BR senior who holds great knowledge specially in all things Sukhoi.
On the other hand, perhaps you wont, considering his recent posts.

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 29 Oct 2009 19:33

Hi

Pardon me for my courage to ask this question. I just noticed that Date of joining in NRao & George sir's profile is showing year 1970

Is it real or it's some mistake in database ?? I mean, Is BRF really that old ??

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Oct 2009 19:34

Please leave each other alone.

GeorgeJ is not a novice. He has experience and expertise in his field and that is all I will say.

Let us please quit discussing personalities and get back to the subject.

arun · Post by **arun** » 29 Oct 2009 19:45

The good news is that the coast guard is in for a big expansion. The disappointing news is that it is going to take some time before the expansion fructifies:

Year after 26/11, coasts still not secure

Rajat Pandit, TNN 29 October 2009, 02:34am IST

NEW DELHI: Almost a year after the 26/11 terror attacks rocked India like never before, the much-touted comprehensive revamp of the country's maritime and coastal security architecture is yet to take concrete shape on the ground.

For one, both the static coastal radar chain network and comprehensive chain of AIS (automatic identification system) stations along the coast and island territories to dynamically locate and track vessels in and around Indian waters are still a long way away from being erected.

For another, there has been no substantial augmentation of force-levels in Navy and Coast Guard till now. ………………

Coast Guard …………… is still making do with just 87 `surface units', including six advanced OPVs (offshore patrol vessels), nine OPVs and 15 fast-patrol vessels, and 44 `air units', including 24 coastal surveillance aircraft, 16 Chetak and four advanced light helicopters. ………...........

Defence minister A K Antony, on his part, says the government has approved "an all-round expansion" of Coast Guard, ranging from procurement of over 50 ships and 12 Dornier aircraft to 33% increase in manpower (2,788 personnel), new coastal stations and installation of 46 radars along the 7,516-km coastline. ............……..

But even as the government conducts a stock-taking next month to coincide with the first anniversary of 26/11, it will require much more to actually plug the gaping holes in the coastal security architecture.

The government, for instance, needs to actually hasten setting up of the 15 new coastal stations -- at Karwar, Vadinar, Veraval, Murud Janjira, Ratnagiri, Karaikal, Nizampatnam, Gopalpur, Hutbay, Minicoy, Androth, Pipavav, Kamorta, Krishnapatnam and Dhanu -- identified to bolster coastal security. …………………….

It will also take at least a couple of years for Coast Guard to induct the 53 new ships on order, and another five-six years after that to induct the additional 65 planned for acquisition. ……………………

TOI

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 29 Oct 2009 19:50

sunny y wrote:Hi

Pardon me for my courage to ask this question. I just noticed that Date of joining in NRao & George sir's profile is showing year 1970

Is it real or it's some mistake in database ?? I mean, Is BRF really that old ??

Some are before time.

Seriously, it is to with UNIX, the OS that this web site is based on. It by itself has no meaning. But, some of us have been on BR (and outside BR too) for about 10+ years.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 29 Oct 2009 20:16

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unixtime
btw, it could be a BRite bug to be fixed.

George J · Post by **George J** » 29 Oct 2009 20:22

Ray:
If I could openly come out and tom tom what I know, I would have done it when I posted the link itself. I could have gone in detail to explain the purpose of the two awkward placed flat panel at it was explained to me. I know and have seen enough on multiple ships to know that Ajai Shukla got it right and I am bit jealous that he gets IN approval to post stuff that I never was permitted to even shoot. The simplest thing to end the debate and this was stated pretty much from the beginning when Austin had doubts about this pic was...if this is not the Ops Room...fair enough...where are the other open source pic? What I got was brochures.

BR now is missing the forest amongst the tree.

You are right I promised Jagan I would quit...I quit. I am done............for now.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Oct 2009 22:03

George - While you are focusing only on the Ops Room, what you are missing is that the other areas of a ship, like engine room has undergone a significant transformation.

I haven’t been onboard the Shivalik or Shardul, the first IN ships with IPMS, but even on Mysore the engine room is a generation shift from the Godavari/Rajput.

And the perpendicular screens allow people positioned anywhere in the room to view the data. With only a single screen, people standing on the sides of the room won’t be able to see clearly what's displayed. LCD screens by itself isn’t an indication of Operations Room. You’ll find LCD screens in many areas.

And the EMCCA / Barak / Uran / Shikari consoles on Betwa look different than the ones displayed here.

Let me explain using Ajai’s pictures –

This one is an IPMS terminal http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/S ... h/IVCS.JPG

It shows propulsion and navigation data. The menu items on the screen are also navigation and propulsion related, that is handled by the IPMS system. Like GPS, Rudder, Roll & Pitch, Engine Order, etc.

It also shows a tab called Weapons Status & Sensor Status, but it shows from a system perspective and not operations perspective, like whether power supply to the radar is OK, lubrication and cooling of the gun is OK, etc.

You see an EXACTLY SIMILAR terminal exactly to the right of the helm (“wheel”) the next picture.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/S ... e+view.JPG

For the benefit of those who don’t know, helm is the place from where a ship is steered. The helmsman or the coxswain has the “wheel”. The wheel looks similar to a car. The lever behind the helm is called engine order telegraph. It communicates navigator inputs to the engineer, like full ahead, half, slow, dead slow or stop.

The IPMS terminal right of helm assists the helmsman / coxswain with navigation and propulsion data.

The other larger terminals right of the IPMS terminal could be weapons/sensor controls, but I like to believe they display navigation radar data over an electronic chart display.

Now take a closer look at this picture

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/S ... centre.JPG

The consoles look EXACTLY SIMILAR to the IPMS consoles in the earlier pictures. Now IPMS controls cannot be present in the Operations Room. Because IPMS controls navigation and machinery while Operations Room has weapons and sensor controls. Hence I conclude this room ISNT the operations Room

BTW last year I took V Adm J S Bedi’s permission to publish those pictures. I don’t think you’ll find such detailed Uran, Deseaver or Revathi pictures anywhere else when I published them.

BTW, SNaik has posted better pictures of Beas at Russia.

[color=#0000FF]{I understand that a warning was issued for the content here that I have now deleted, but the content needed to be deleted.}[/color]

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Oct 2009 22:13

Good post, tsarkar.

{Yeah, his abuse earned him a warning. Great taste to emulate!}

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 29 Oct 2009 22:26

^^^

And i thought it was over!

BTW: I googled IPMS and the first result i got was this

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Oct 2009 22:41

George J wrote:
But I like cake.....those Hamla trained chefs can sure bake a good cake (IAF chaps only serve you nimbupani...but sipping nimbupani while ogling at MKI is as good as Navy Cake). I never really liked the Navy.... too much climbing up and down those steep ladders is not good for my back. And getting stuck inside an upgraded Kilo was not very helpful either...I tell you I am getting old.

Small correction there, you seem to like free cake. In the old days, IN ships used to bake fresh bread for all three meals.

A copy of the Naval cooking manual is generally a prized possession of a new Naval bride and its a coveted gift. It reveals all, the ingredients, quantities and above all mystical process of cooking for one, five or a hundred.

Hamla has taught guys from the Coast Guard, Army and Air force how to " bake a cake " and continues to do so even now. The Indian Navy runs the most professional and efficient of Officers and Sailors messes in the country as they have been doing for decades and adapting procedures handed down from the RN who have had many centuries of such experience. The equipment in the ships galley will be the envy of any five star hotel in terms of versatility, range, compactness and process control. The Hamla guys work with minimum fuss and maximum grace 27x7 with punishing work schedules.

Sashi Taroor ought to know, he moved into one in preference to his own Foreign service officers mess.

Naval graduates from Hamla are much sought after in five star hotels in India and the gulf.

No Indian Naval ship can sail without them. They are also the hardest working of the naval guys and have a really tough life.

For a guy who does not like the Navy, you sure seem to have a lot of opinions.

Erroneous opinions that you perhaps formulated whilst negotiating those steep ladders with your creaking back.

Lucky you, that you never had to climb up a rolling mast at sea to work on a radar antenna.

Stick with the MKI. Its an easier topic.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 29 Oct 2009 22:45

Can we stop this name calling and personal and return to Indian Naval Discussion please? Admins please help.

George J · Post by **George J** » 29 Oct 2009 22:56

[quote="tsarkar"]
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_zUe7sq7m3h0/S ... centre.JPG

The consoles look EXACTLY SIMILAR to the IPMS consoles in the earlier pictures. Now IPMS controls cannot be present in the Operations Room. Because IPMS controls navigation and machinery while Operations Room has weapons and sensor controls. Hence I conclude this room ISNT the operations Room

{deleted. GeorgeJi, the issue has been dealt with by another Admin}

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 29 Oct 2009 23:02

its best to stop this exchange of views.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 29 Oct 2009 23:14

exactly, things are getting out of hand here.

its better if mods can lock up the thread or shoot warnings before its too late (again!!).

George J · Post by **George J** » 29 Oct 2009 23:16

I think this guy needs to take an in-voluntary break. There are acrimonious arguments and then there is hitting below the belt and getting into which community's naval officer is related to me. If I got personal I do apologies. But I don't think I have ever done that on Mil.

This is pretty serious. What do I need to lodge a formal complaint?

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Oct 2009 23:20

George J wrote:I think this guy needs to take an in-voluntary break. There are acrimonious arguments and then there is hitting below the belt and getting into which community's naval officer is related to me. If I got personal I do apologies. But I don't think I have ever done that on Mil.

This is pretty serious.

I never really liked the Navy

So is this.

Its very personal and totally uncalled for.

George J · Post by **George J** » 29 Oct 2009 23:23

Personal opinion, in this case take completely out of context (or truncated to make it look different)

This is what I actually wrote:I never really liked the Navy.... too much climbing up and down those steep ladders is not good for my back. And getting stuck inside an upgraded Kilo was not very helpful either...I tell you I am getting old.

is not valid defense to protect someone who has complete disregard for all civility by denigrating a discussion to caste/creed to prove a point.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 29 Oct 2009 23:26

George J wrote:Personal opinion, in this case take completely out of context is not valid defense to protect someone who has complete disregard for all civility by denigrating a discussion to caste/creed to prove a point.

tsarkar does not need anyone to protect him.

OTOH.........

A riled up bong is unstoppable.

I would not include amchi mumbai in my travel itinerary any time soon

George J · Post by **George J** » 29 Oct 2009 23:32

I don't think the posters name/caste/creed really figures in my debates. It's about what is stated and accurate it is. Unless I missed the memo this would be a new low for BRF.

I am very disappointed in you.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 29 Oct 2009 23:34

Look who's talking...

"I am sure that after this incident you will make it to an ops room, even if you are "catering" you will have friends who are "Missiles and Gunnery" (hint hint hint)"

"(you are free to continue your tall tales here too)....have you EVER seen an ops room?"

"who knows if you bake them a cake they might be nicer to you"

"If you are Logistics you can still be on the same ship but you will be doing Catering and Payroll (again refer back to my post)."

"I really hope tsarkar is a, b or d. If not .....well at least I get an invite to US club."

"I will agree to whatever tall tale tsarkar tells if he can get me back to Lohegaon....Engine room...laundry room....all fine."

"I never really liked the Navy"

You dont like receiving a taste of your own medicine? You are right chetak, his goose is cooked now, with the choicest sauces.

Don’t worry, to quote from Bachna Ae Haseeno, “Sher kabhi geedaron ka shikaar nahin karta” (Effect of all those movies in the wardroom

And there are many naval personnel who wear para wings.

Anyone who does 5 jumps can wear the para wings. And many go to PTS Agra via Navy Adventure Cell (officially called Directorate of Adventure, Physical and Sports Activities). Including lady officers of education cadre. It is through sheer modesty that they don’t wear para wings.

Commander Satyabrata Dam, who climbed Everest and reached the South pole, is one such submariner, who DOESN’T wear para wings.

Now like you tell others, shoo off…

Anyways, apologies to all. And good night.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Oct 2009 23:37

tsarkar and georgeJ,

You have been warned.

I will not hesitate to warn you further.

No further personal attacks.

Stand by to Abandon Ship or Eject out of your aircraft.

For the remainder of us, if you join in this personal acrimony, you will too have to face the consequences.

George J · Post by **George J** » 29 Oct 2009 23:40

This guy needs be banned...not warned. This is pretty ridiculous...the Mil Forum now has absorbed all the vile qualities of the hot air.

People have been banned for much less than this, but if the new and improved BRF feels a warning should suffice I guess a lot of water has flown under the bridge. Utterly shameful.

RayC · Post by **RayC** » 29 Oct 2009 23:43

George J wrote:This guy needs be banned...not warned. This is pretty ridiculous...the Mil Forum now has absorbed all the vile qualities of the hot air.

People have been banned for much less than this, but if the new and improved BRF feels a warning should suffice I guess a lot of water has flown under the bridge. Utterly shameful.

If you think we are bunch of chumps out here, may I request you to climb down from your high horse.

One more time you wish to take over the BRF or dictate terms to the posters and Mods, I will warn you and things will get nasty.

Why wreck up the atmosphere?

For Christ's sake, I again state, calm down.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 29 Oct 2009 23:47

Ahem..OK then...

India To Boost Coast Guard's Size, Resources

NEW DELHI - India plans to build up its maritime security agency, the Coast Guard, with additional personnel and assets, a move prompted by the November 2008 attacks on Mumbai by terrorists who arrived by sea.

Defence Minister A.K. Antony, announced Oct. 28 in his address at the Coast Guard Commanders' Conference here that an additional 3,000 Coast Guard personnel will be recruited on an urgent basis, according to a Defence Ministry statement.

The minister also announced that the Coast Guard is acquiring 20 fast patrol vehicles, 41 interceptor boats, 12 Dornier coastal surveillance aircraft and seven off-shore patrol vehicles. Work also is in progress on a chain of 46 coastal radars that will link nine coastal stations. Moreover, nine new Coast Guard stations have been approved.

The Coast Guard boost was recommended by a high-level panel the government established in July to regularly review India's coastal security, a senior Navy official said.

Acquisition of the platforms, weapons and other equipment for the Coast Guard will be fast-tracked.

Another Link: http://frontierindia.net/indian-to-upgr ... rne-terror

George J · Post by **George J** » 29 Oct 2009 23:57

RayC wrote:One more time you wish to take over the BRF or dictate terms to the posters and Mods, I will warn you and things will get nasty.

This is not a turf battle Ray, I am disappointed that you think it is.

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 29 Oct 2009 23:59

RayC sir,

May i suggest that the mods/you facilitate in helping the warring parties exchange their email ids via PMs so that they can settle their differences in private and not make a show here.

I mean, I know it doesn't concern me here, but this HAS to stop somewhere, sometime! Really sorry to see two seniors bawl at each other like this.

yossarian · Post by **yossarian** » 30 Oct 2009 00:07

Ray - Stop warning.. start deleting posts...including this one...I spend a few precious hours in a day trying to browse BR forums to keep myself updated and this talk has been the most wasteful read I have ever indulged in...