Indian Naval Discussion

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ShivaS
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ShivaS » 03 Sep 2010 00:55

It was public sector, same with Midhani, same with Ishapur, Avadi, Mountain gun, Pinaka..
Vivek K I dont know your expertise but you tease me with come off...
What do I come off with...
repudiate what I said about private sector

My dear sire after the cold war ended, Titanium prices crashed...
russia was making excellent Golf Clubs with excess titanium...
Private sector is always creative

Godrej had nothing to do with Prithvi Agni because Sethji (NP Godrej) saw no margins till Kalam assured him 3 to 4 times the cost+ for stainless steel fabrication of Oxidiser and fuel tanks. {because of small numbers order by DRDO... even now we dont make hundreds of Prithvis or Agnis like MAruti 800 or Zen no?)

Dont ever compare Private sector and public sector... for all we know L&T will borrow from PSU banks for SUB project under different entity, if no orders they can languish as NPA for PSU banks...

Finance is different ball game..

Vivek K
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 03 Sep 2010 01:20

Shiva, good points all. However, here is a case of a pvt entity having invested time, money and having developed expertise in hull manufacture for submarines and you want them to consider going into pressure vessels business? Don't you think that is a tremendous loss to the nation and to national security. How many pressure vessels in the country can influence national security.

Godrej and Agni is where it was perhaps done right. Here the person that has done the hard work is now being shooed off. I'm sure that they can apply the lessons to - "Not work with Indian defence services in the future", apart from that ........

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ShivaS » 03 Sep 2010 01:40

Thats called flexibilty, if a nation thinks costal defence can be achieved with two Subs made in approved and agreed (by protocol and intent) then that speaks volumes of the leadership that proud country is bestowed with.

Business is always working under constraints called Statuatory, Environment, Profits (ethical) and welfare of people (of the land) through employment and other services.

The primary activity of a Sub builder (having visited New London facilities) is to perform Rolling, Welding, Machining and Fitting (of other components), the intrecacies arise of the fact that sheet metal is really thick, heavy and large to begin with, Then material handling quality weldments,heat treatment of large sections, QC of material inputs and qc of processes, build, skill(of workers) then assembling the pipes, valves, equipment its a gigantic task but doable (We in India have ISO900 certified Kamat Udidpis after all).

Now when in lean time I am sure my spare machining capacity can be used by ISRO, BDL, BARC heck I can go into SPM manufacture.

Just Open your eyes and see how Hyundai is into all kinds of manufacturing , They started as Steel manufacturers, then branched out into body building on top of Mitsibushi engines, then they started cars, then Trucks, then Material handling Cranes, Excavators Forlifts...

Why look at Tata Steel Tata Oils, Tata Steam Engines, Tata Motors, Tata SPM division and see what is common

Best is look at L&T itself, construction, fabrication, electrodes and where it wants go

SUB building is nothing but a fabrication job just like Almarah but of the high end kind. In both case you bend weld and furnish (with Mirror), yes at very high 20,000 feet level.

A Almarah with a compressor is also called Refrigerator no?

Vivek K
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 03 Sep 2010 01:50

Good. So we should DELIBERATELY do this - introduce lean times to profit making companies?

ShivaS
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby ShivaS » 03 Sep 2010 01:59

What?
Sorry
I thought you were in right earnest your intentions are as much as that of GOI making SUBs in India.
Sorry to have cluttered your mind with information...
Good Luck

Vivek K
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Vivek K » 03 Sep 2010 02:17

Shiva, I could go into oodles of text similar to above. That is well and good when you have a large industrial set up and one can easilly transition from one business to the other. Hyundai and others had a lot of "Government Support" of the kind that Godrej had. Here we are "withdrawing" "Government Support" and forcing a profit making enterprise to duck and find other avenues.

So there is a difference. I have seen the practical side of things as well as the academic. It is very easy to sit in a MBA group and discuss innovation and business opportuities but when you have payrolls to meet every month, the situation is entirely difficult.

So I may humbly suggest that you look at the matter in its simplicity "now" and not go off on a tangent in the far future. Sure, with this experience, if the firm survives in the ship-building business, maybe it will turn out hulls/chambers for the moon or the space station. But how will it maintain its ship-building business as a profit center on its own?

Thank you for your good wishes.

VinodTK
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby VinodTK » 03 Sep 2010 06:55

India OKs $6.5B Plan To Build Stealth Destroyers

The new destroyers will have greater stealth and advanced sensor and weapon packages, and will be fitted with a 1,000-kilometer-range nuclear capable cruise missile currently being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation with Israeli help, Navy sources said.

sum
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby sum » 03 Sep 2010 08:53

VinodTK wrote:India OKs $6.5B Plan To Build Stealth Destroyers

The new destroyers will have greater stealth and advanced sensor and weapon packages, and will be fitted with a 1,000-kilometer-range nuclear capable cruise missile currently being developed by the Defence Research and Development Organisation with Israeli help, Navy sources said.

Huh, Nirbhay is being built with Israeli help??

chetak
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 03 Sep 2010 09:00

Vivek K wrote:Come off it Shiva. What good did the HDW TOT do to us? All the skilled manpower developed was never put to use.



Yes it was!!!

The bloody expensively developed skilled man power was used (and continues to be used) extensively in the gulf.

Go figure.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Sep 2010 09:09

>> Huh, Nirbhay is being built with Israeli help??

I think its ok to pull in whoever can extend reliable help to reduce risk, reduce cost and compress timelines. israel & russia fit the yardstick for
strategic projects.

imagine that nirbhay will not just have glonass & ins guidance but also a cooled IIR seeker for the terminal phase to passively hit targets with pin
point accuracy based on stored imagery even in a situation where glonass signals have been "jammed" or unavailable for target area
due to a glitch in the satellite/ASAT strike on the sat

imagine it will have a micro-rwr to detect being painted by hostile x/L-band radar and dive even lower to treetop level or speed up and
start weaving to break the lock

imagine a stealthy shaping and inlet rcs management, plus exhaust cooling and hiding from ground based sensors.

imagine it will have submunitions fused by sub-sensors

imagine it will have a hard target mode wherein it climbs in terminal phase and dives almost vertically to maximise the
kinetic energy and penetration

imagine a salvo attack capability where a datalinked 'wolfpack' of nirbhays fired over a time window exchange info on their
threat map (picked up via rwr and IIR) and 'tell' the trailing members of the pack to outflank surprise AD bubbles dynamically...

imagine a anti-S400 mode wherein a wolfpack surrounds, maps and then takes out a network of S400 system radars one by
one, mercilessly pressing home their attack by first popping up to make radars light up, while treetop huggers armed with
cluster bombs creep in at a uninterceptible height for the kill.

imagine midcourse updates of new threats & new waypoints sent from AWACS/ELINT a.c to inflight salvos of nirbhays

"the network is the computer"

"the power of one is amplified 1000 times by network intelligence"


:twisted:
Last edited by Singha on 03 Sep 2010 09:24, edited 5 times in total.

Rahul M
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 03 Sep 2010 09:16

sum wrote:
VinodTK wrote:India OKs $6.5B Plan To Build Stealth Destroyers

Huh, Nirbhay is being built with Israeli help??

sheesh sum, by this time you should know who is reliable and who is not. :wink: vivek raghuvansi and defensenews ? at least wait till someone else reports it.

chetak
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby chetak » 03 Sep 2010 09:23

sum wrote:
dinesha wrote:AM Naik, chairman & MD of L&T is trying whole hog to snatch the P75I construction contract.
Yesterday at the NDTV Profit live event “Business Leadership Awards”, He called upon the government to allow for a wider participation of the private sector in the defence sector indirectly referring to the P75I construction. Parnav Mukerjee responded by saying that he agreed that the private sector should be allowed to have wider participation in development of “Platforms” as well as the “Systems” and very recently government at the “highest level” have decided to implement it. Niar responded by saying that “He have high hopes now”.
Recent Col. Sukla’s visit to Katupalli and Hazira, Niar’s statements are all indicative of L&T’s well thought out PR and media offencive to secure this highly lucrative Contract, one should not be surprised if they are after construction of all the 6 subs.

Interesting thought and could be true also!!! This might be a L&T psy-ops to ensure everything goes there way. I cannot imagine MoD even thinking of getting a well connected giant like L&T on the wrong side! ( The statement of Naik in the NDTV awards struck me also as strange since usually defence stuff are not spoken in such awards, only about helping the poor etc are.) So, if the CMD is pushing personally for this project, cant see L&T being out of the race.



L&T has a large pool of talent recruited from government sources. Critical, ready made, trained and competent staff have also been lured away in the usual commercial manner. This is applicable in both the defence as well as the nuclear fields. They have spread their tentacles far and deep.

This is just another bania type company which is scrambling to maximise their profits and "managing the environment" in a time honored fashion as successfully pioneered by other big bania type groups. They undoubtedly have engineering and management skills like all big bania companies do but bania they still remain.

Do not attribute altruistic motives where simple greed for profit better explains the situation.

This translates into bigger bonuses, larger ESOPs and what not.

And ultimately makes for a softer bed during ones sunset years. :)

BTW, "systems" is where all the money actually is. Here, you can actually fool all the people all the time.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Sep 2010 09:26

well atleast the manpower is deployed in or near original fields, not in itvity! we need more such pvt players entering defence.

amit
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby amit » 03 Sep 2010 10:11

chetak wrote:This is just another bania type company which is scrambling to maximise their profits and "managing the environment" in a time honored fashion as successfully pioneered by other big bania type groups. They undoubtedly have engineering and management skills like all big bania companies do but bania they still remain.

Do not attribute altruistic motives where simple greed for profit better explains the situation.


<sarcasm on>

So Chetak ji, like the TFTA Porkis you also look down on the dhoti clad "banias"-type companies? (Perhaps Pak Fauji Foundation is a really cool TFTA company?)

Profit is a dirty word. Long live Socialism! Inqulab Zindabad! :-)

<sarcasm off>

To overlook the technical competence and expertise that private Indian players like L&T have built up is criminal. Anyone who's gone through the process and has done it will know that building such competencies is a multi year task and involves a lot of unglamorous work.

Once you build those and the talented manpower, you'd look to make best use of them won't you? L&T is not a charitable organization. And as long as they don't break any law and don't compromise India's interests what's the problem if they bag lucrative contracts? They are more likey than not finish them without cost and time overruns.

And remember: You pay peanuts, you get monkey's.

Perhaps we've become too used to playing with monkey's to consider any other creature?
Last edited by amit on 03 Sep 2010 12:10, edited 1 time in total.

Philip
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Philip » 03 Sep 2010 11:22

L&T have a right to ask for sub construction contracts from their excellent track record.However,since the major shipbuilding yards in the country are now coming under the de-facto control of the iN/DRDO,there is a definite reluctance to loosen one's grip over warship and sub building.When did any govt. agency give up control over anything without kicking and screaming?Babus protect their babudom.The defence PSU's under the DRDO are a massive entity that has little or no accountability.What the DRDO fears is that if Indian private sector giants start producing results and on time,far superior to defence PSUs,then any govt. of the day will prefer to expand the defence sector to Indian private industry and "poof" goes the stranglehold over Indian defence production and policy with it! A percentage of foreign built systems is allowed for obvious reasons.

It is therefore understandable but shocking,that despite its track record of delays upon delays over the Scorpene project,with repeated heavy cost overruns,the MOD wants almost all of the second line subs to be built in Indian yards.

PS:Now Indonesia wants to build subs at home.
http://www.tempointeractive.com/hg/nasi ... 28,uk.html
Last edited by Philip on 03 Sep 2010 11:29, edited 1 time in total.

amit
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby amit » 03 Sep 2010 11:28

Philip wrote:L&T have a right to ask for sub construction contracts from their excellent track record.However,since the major shipbuilding yards in the country are now coming under the de-facto control of the iN/DRDO,there is a definite reluctance to loosen one's grip over warship and sub building.When did any govt. agency give up control over anything without kicking and screaming?Babus protect their babudom.The defence PSU's under the DRDO are a massive entity that has little or no accountability.What the DRDO fears is that if Indian private sector giants start producing results and on time,far superior to defence PSUs,then any govt. of the day will prefer to expand the defence sector to Indian private industry and "poof" goes the stranglehold over Indian defence production and policy with it! A percentage of foreign built systems is allowed for obvious reasons.

It is therefore understandable but shocking,that despite its track record of delays upon delays over the Scorpene project,with repeated heavy cost overruns,the MOD wants almost all of the second line subs to be built in Indian yards.


Philip Saar, for once I agree with you 400 per cent! :-)

Great post!

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby dinesha » 03 Sep 2010 11:50

Everyone is here forgetting that project 75I is the VERY beginning of journey for the Indian sub-building future. Project 75 and 75I will be basic model upon which the mixed “indigenous Design” is going to be based. L&T getting to build even two of these 75I subs will entail them with certainty at least 4 of the 12 indigenous design subs by 2020. This will surely entrench them deep into sub-building business and L&T unlike other govt. run inefficient PSU will take advantage of opportunity and emerge as one of the major sub-builders of the country.
With L&T at lest the projects can be expected to of quality executed efficently within time and budget.
Last edited by dinesha on 03 Sep 2010 12:00, edited 1 time in total.

AdityaM
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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 03 Sep 2010 12:00

if babu-run and Pvt yards build the same ship, and if the Pvt yard delivers efficiently, then the babus will have a tough time justifying why they couldn't.
Hence kick the pvt yard out.

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Re: Indian Naval Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 03 Sep 2010 12:12

please start a new thread.


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