LCA news and discussion

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enqyoob
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LCA news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 03 Aug 2009 17:29

Please stay on topic.

That means :
a> No comparison with aircraft A,B or C.
b> No half-baked suggestions to improve LCA like "add a laser gun"/"merge DRDO with ISRO " etc etc.
c> NO whining.

Rahul.


=============================================================
Background articles on HAL Tejas (LCA)

1.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas

2.Remembrance of Aeronautical Matters Past (Brief history of India's Aerospace Industry)
http://vayuaerospace.in/Selected_articl ... brance.htm

3.All the articles at BR page on LCA.
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Info/LCA-Section.html

4.http://www.acig.org/exclusives/LCA/ACIG ... Tejas.html

5.http://www.lca-tejas.org/

6.Good background on project, a bit dated.
http://www.geocities.com/spacetransport ... t-lca.html

Newbies beware ! If you make ignorant remarks, you could be grilled by gurus
to test your LCA knowledge from these pages !
And, if you come out deficient..............(you would do better not to find out !)
:twisted:
======================================================



Rakall, if they go to F414, GTRE/DRDO have a huge problem: catch up and surpass that within 2-3 years. May not be a bad thing at all....

But do you see guvrmand able to sign a deal and start delivery of phoren engines in a timely manner? Well.. c b lo:

July 26, 2009, (Sawf News) - Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) has issued a RFP for the supply of 99 engines with thrust in the 95-100 KN to power Tejas LCA Mk 2, which the agency hopes will fly in 2014.

The RFP is being sent to just two contenders: General Electric (GE) for the F414 engine and Eurojet for the EJ200 engine. They are required to submit their proposals by October 12.

The RFP indicates an initial procurement of 99 engines with an optional follow-up up for 49 more. The initial batch of engines will be procured directly from the manufacturer with the rest being assembled at HAL

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby RKumar » 03 Aug 2009 17:32

Sorry for saying good news, I misunderstood ... thought it is Kaveri :( (How it could be ... when we already know it is still in development :oops: )

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby vina » 03 Aug 2009 17:37

Diyar Mulla Enqyoob ud din -e - Gas Turbiney.

It is an important kweschun you ask, when you ask what phor the pye-pass ratio of al-Kaveri is 0.16 onree and not like the 0.45 to 0.60 in competing Kuffar yingnees from vilayat. Bhy not more maadurn Yingine thermodynamic cycles you ask .

Let this 'umble Mujahid take a guess. For that you have to go back in history. YellCeeYea was conceived in early 80s saar and GTRE was told to come up with an engine!. Dhoti clad Yindoos very conservative and risk averse onree. They know that just design is going to take huge leaps of capability and folding up dhoti and jumping. So risk mitigation would have been order of day. Now , the starting point would be the capability of materials and fabrication that existed as of early to mid 80s, which will be the experience from manufacturing Mig21s, Mig 23s and Jags ityadi.

So dhoti wallahs would have tried doing jugaad with best of materials available with not too much assumption on availability of more advanced materials. So you end up with the 1960s/ early 70s kind of cycle onree. Material of 60s and 70s, you end up with similar cycles onree. Zimble no ?.

But why should it be. Think about it. For a given total mass flow, in a higher pye-pass yinginn like in vilayat, the mass flow rate through the core will be far far less. Less hawa through the turbine, so less hawa for the turbine to make garam onree, so turbine becomes more garam, and has to remain more erect and mard even at far higher temperatures onree no ?.

So in SDRE design, with far lower pye-pass, more mass flow rate through core, more hawa handled by garam turbine blade, more mass to transfer garmi to and hence SDRE turbine becomes less garam, and like the true dhoti clad, doesn't need to show mardangi and be erect at high garmi.

So horses for courses onree no ?. Since your's truly was the one who actually speculated here correctly (patting myself on the back) that GTRE indeed has a working engine with all major gremlins licked (which Rakall and others who went to AI confirmed), let me put my thoughts on this as well.

It is too much to expect GTRE to come up with the advanced materials that will make it competitive with kufr vilayati yinginns. That is not how even Amir Khan does it. They are a design house and they have done their job. So no point dumping on GTRE. They have their share of sins, but I guess they are more sinned against than sinning.

The piraablem is the great Yindian babu pinheads with such short sights that they cant look beyond the tips of their noses. When the YellCeeYea was sanctioned, they should have been an all out massive effort in all the major research institutes and labs , partnering with leading fabricators and manufacturers who use similar competencies in adjacent industries to realize the key materials, processes and fabrication and manufacturing technologies.

In the absence of that, you cant make a Yinginn competitive to Vilayat. Period. That is the way the cookie crumbles unfortunately. Look at all the hoo-haa with the Kaveri-Snecma with "ECO" core . What the French bring to the table is the hot section (primarily the turbine and the gas generator , and no TOT there , thank you). So the "Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys" have you there by the balls , thanks to the Nincompoop giri of les Babus.

So putting my YumBeeYea hat on, I suggest, that without vendor development and developing proprietary technology or being able to tap into the ecosystem of suppliers behind the key technologies of the engine , there are too many fundamental hurdles that are impossible to circumvent.

So me boor YumBeeYea recommends, let us go easy on bechaara GTRE , acknowledge that they have done the best possible under the circumstances . Let us however shoot the babu monkeys and then apply size 12 motivators on the backsides of Midhani, EyeEyeTeas and IISc and any halfway decent univ that has a materials science and get big private sector guys with required capabilities on board for the engineering, process and fabrication part.

If after all, some smart guys in raakit program can figure out that SDRE Godrej fridge has expertise in brazing used in making the freezer of fridges and ergo can be made to do raakit yinginns, there must be hundreds of such examples around where you leverage the best in class industrial capabilities in India to get the process and manufacturing done effectively and with low risk!. Oh, Babus would say.. Tuaba tauba. What about "Commanding Heights". Shouldn't HAL be building everything including the casting and forging and other ding dongs.. That is why I maintain that the Babu monkeys should be shot and professional go getter managers who think that "Gazetted Officer" means an someone who has been put on the death row , be brought in to manage the programs.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 03 Aug 2009 18:00

there must be hundreds of such examples around where you leverage the best in class industrial capabilities in India to get the process and manufacturing done effectively and with low risk!. Oh, Babus would say.. Tuaba tauba. What about "Commanding Heights". Shouldn't HAL be building everything including the casting and forging and other ding dongs.. That is why I maintain that the Babu monkeys should be shot and professional go getter managers who think that "Gazetted Officer" means an someone who has been put on the death row , be brought in to manage the programs.


Phool 400 berjent agreement onlee. I know some1 hu suggested to babus that they bring in QC types from Toyota and Honda to do the composite panel acceptance/rejection on other parts of kufr ellceeya. Very doubtful onlee whether they did, or just went back to riveted metal panels instead. Excellent point about Phridge and :oops: -o-jinn-ic. They need to bring in some pucca jewellers who melt Platinum and mix it with lead and copper routinely to make SuperSucker-White Gold Alloy, and these guys will know how to make turbine blades that say :P to 2120K. Look at the ultra-thin gold alloy wafers work as armor by Malloo brides - this is the key to weight reduction on the engine too.

As I said, no intent to dump on GTRE DOOs, but I think it is high time to start revelations equivalent to "No, Muzzafarabad is not inside the YelloSea at this point despite what the Ophishial Bharat Map says, you cannot go visit there if you want to come back" Likewise, "Kaveri is Super Dooper World Beater Injinn" is not, unphortunately, the truth.

Time to ask the FIVE WHYs (why why2, why3 whyphor and WHY? :(( ) per "Kaizen" which the Japanese stole from ancient Bharatiya Debating Culture a la Adi Sankara.

At least they should give it a more macho naam - look at the Navy. Call it, say,"Airavat" (allo! No offense to our dear postor !) and you can already feel the POWER, and it's much more honest in terms of program cost effectiveness.

And the Truth Shall Set U Phree!!!

(Maharashtra Pandus to PakGenius Imran, Nov. 2008)

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Sanku » 03 Aug 2009 18:18

Can you gentlemen please cut out the Pinglish please?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Drevin » 03 Aug 2009 18:30

sheer magic with anglais .... kudos from humble me to both of you saar's. We are missing one poster JCage.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby geeth » 03 Aug 2009 18:41

>>>Can you gentlemen please cut out the Pinglish please?

I second it.

I feel the GTRE guys should have put down their foot and demanded world class facilities, if the customer wanted a world class engine. And once the specs were fixed no change from that. If they wanted a LCA MK II, then It has to be powered by a Kaveri MK II, so shell out more money.

The problem is, people glorify the efforts of earlier generation scientists, who had gone in bycycles, carried 'payloads' in those bicycles and struggled to produce results. We as a nation have no right to criticise these scientists for not producing the desired results, if we don't provide necessary facility.

I too had reservations about GTRE performance, and still have. But, personally I feel their performance would have improved vastly, if they were given what was asked for. In this respect I would put the blame sqarely on the Air Force - this is where the Navy scores.

The Navy as an organisation has a design department - DGND. And they interact closely with various DRDO organisations like NPOL etc. In fact the Navy treats these labs as their own, with full support from CNS downwards. It is Navy and its chief, who generally takes up the case of these labs and get them what they want. The Navy Chief will put it across the babus and their political masters about what the navy wants and how the babus should make things moving. in short, the Babus and their political masters understand the language of CNS and his team better than the scientists of DRDO etc. I am happy that's what happened with Arihant also.

Another important thing is, the Navy accepts the product even if it is inferior and helps the scientists with feedback to improve. That is why there is APSO I, II etc. For eg, ai understand the Kaveri Marine GT gives bout 12,000 SHP only. It may have been desirable if it were 15,000 or so. I am sure the Navy will work backwards and design ships to accommodate these engines in some of the future ships - they may tweak the size, hull shape or even top speed, but will use it in the ships for sure, instead of waiting for the engine to develop that 15,000 SHP. As and when there are teething troubles, they will sit with the manufacturer and solve it. That is how things are done world over, EXCEPT INDIAN AIR FORCE AND INDIAN ARMY.

But NO! The Airforce wants Kaveri with its full power onlee...even if it is less by 5%, they don't want it. I ask, why can't they fit it in couple of LCA's and use it as test bed? and give feedback for improvement? Why can't they sit with GTRE and fix the specs for the next generation engine, instead of criticising and pointing out what is the shortfall?

Narayanan, IIRC the low bypass ratio is to cater for the vast difference in ambient temp to get a more flat rated engine power output. I am not sure though.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Drevin » 03 Aug 2009 18:47

I think the point being made here is that GTRE has built a house-of-cards. And as you very rightly put, IAF came and blew it away.

Now I think its clear what exactly went wrong.

Why did GTRE build a house-of-cards and not something that could withstand an attack from IAF :?:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby bala » 03 Aug 2009 20:26

I still believe that the GTRE has no working Kaveri Engine that is airworthy. The simple fact is that they don't have the key technologies that enable such a venture. Single crystal blade is a singular failure of the GTRE after so many years of "Research". High temperature and high pressure regimes require major R&D work. Nobody is going to hand these technologies on a platter or ToT.

I second the observation of the attitude of IAF vs Indian Navy. Being a stake holder implies collaborative work, i.e. sharing the learning curve and getting to phase 1 of the project successfully. Thereafter work on improving for better and greater things.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 03 Aug 2009 20:29

Can you gentlemen please cut out the Pinglish please?


As long as such unreasonable demands are addressed to any "gentlemenons" here, I have no problem onlee. LOOK at the quality of posts. There's

We should Adopt a New Paradigm, Refine a Strategic Plan, Think Globally and Out of The Box, Motivate Employees and Provide Only Top Class Facilities, Hire The Right People and Nurture Their Career Development, and Execute the Strategic Plan Tactically!

Meaning:
keep them in the dark, beat them regularly and feed them pu


And then look at the quality of technical insight in the Pingreji posts. Q.E.D. Besides, if we bring the discussion down to the level of Oxbridge Angreji, Sanku might participate! :eek:

Geeth: I too WANTED to believe this "flat-rated thrust" stuff - until I saw the values of bypass ratio and turbine inlet temperature. If thrust is zero, it is the theoretically ideal case of highest propulsion efficiency and flattest thrust rating, u know.... so this is a PR gimmick.

OK, Beloveds! With Vikram's posts, and vina's post, its now AhA! time. I finally "got it", and Drevin's post resonates cleanly off this titanium-hulled conclusion.

CONCLUSION:
The Kaveri engine SNAFU is the result of a huuuuuuuge misunderstanding:
No one told the GTRE that the LCA was actually supposed to fly!!!!


As excellent GOI Babus, they swore by the age-old maxim:
This too shall pass!
when the LCA RFP came out. They put in specs that they knew they could meet if push came to shove, as long as there was no flight testing involved. Since they had successfully dodged any effort to build world-class engine test facilities in India, they knew there was no danger of actually being asked to flight-test an engine unless there was a prototype aircraft flying, and no less an authority than Adm Nadkarni had been :(( :(( loudly that the LCA should be cancelled, all through the 1990s.

GTRE were perfectly comfortable. Funding for Kaveri started at the equivalent of $82M, which paid for a lot of good boondoggles and Phakt-phinding trips and air fare regularly back and forth between B'lore and Dilli.

They provided an engine proposal that they knew, if push came to shove, could be met by buying an ancient 1970s turbojet engine from a junkyard. The Maldives Air Force probably has these in their recycling/ surplus center. They sugar-coated the 1700K T-i-T and the 21 pressure ratio (someone should try calculating the stage pressure ratio!) by claiming that this was 'isbeshially designed phor Indian condishuns, the harshest in the world' and that the low T-i-T was a great advantage for hot day takeoff (!!!!)

This was beautiful planning. When the LCA design was found not to "close" (weight too high, thrust too low, not enough structure fraction..) the project would be cancelled, but THEY (GTRE) would claim, as their Director DID so beautifully:
WE MET OUR SPECIFICATIONS!!!
This is classic aircraft design CYA. Any aerospace engineer who understands the Company Cross-(purposes)-Functional team Multidisciplinary LifeCycle Design Optimization will recognize this tactic instantly. No one would think to point out that the design did not CLOSE precisely because the engine only MET SPECIFICATIONS.

For instance, this is what happened to BOEING's entry in the Joint Strike Fighter competition circa 2005. They MET SPECIFICATIONS, did CYA down the line, silenced all upstarts who wanted to try out this and that (like tailless designs for instance) and designed a VTOL fighter that would have been a great backup if the Harrier had not taken off successfully. In the 1960s. Is it THEIR fault that there was a Lockheed entry that took off vertically and flew supersonic on the first try?

In fact, GTRE may have been encouraged in this strategy, because the real point of the Kaveri engine's (vaporware turbine) specs was to get the sanctions relaxed to the GEF404 level. They succeeded, didn't they?

So the fault is REALLY ADA's. They hung on and actually MADE the LCA fly!
This, if you look carefully, is the source of all of GTRE's problems. Suddenly their pastoral pace was seen to be rather behind the schedule needed for an actual production engine to come out. There was mention of "high altitude flight tests" and "cold weather tests". :(( :((

Reminds me of when I was to take my Project Viva Voce at the Ai Ai Tea. The day of the Big Event, I arrived sleep-deprived and shaking, to find out that my dear kind Project Guide was out of town. BUT, I was assured, the Acting Head of Department Himself ( and he was EXCELLENT at acting like he had something inside his head!) would be my examiner, AND, BONUS! The long-retired Ex-HOD was visiting, and HE would be sitting in as External Examiner. It went something like this:

me: Good morning.... yada yada yada ... experimental... yada yada yada
They (suddenly waking with a start): Did u say EXPERIMENTAL? zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz!!
me: yadayadayadayada ..... .........................
They: "So how is yuwar daughter doing, is she finished MCOM this year? I am going to Mettupalayam for my sister's granddaughter's delivery next week, then blah-blah....

.. Sudden remembrance of me..
"No yaar, that will never work, it all looks very nice in calculation but it won't work like that in practice".

me: saar, but I have built a model.
THEY: "yes, my daughter is also taking her children for Bharatanatyam, it is the Arangettam of her eldest daughter next month and we have to go to Kancheepuram..
WHAT? You BUILT A MODEL? It will never work... they are coming back to Egmore next week onlee, appam parkkalaam...

me: Sir, the model works...
THEY: (now getting very annoyed with my stupidity): No, when you drive it at speed it will have too much friction, it will never work. So coming back to what my doctor said, he says I should take Chyavanapraasam, what do you think?

me: Would you like to come along with me and see the setup? It moves and turns corners, all with very little friction - it is self-stabilizing...
THEY: What? no no no no yaar, I am very busy onlee today, maybe some other time. So my eldest son's daughter has exams next month, and (yada yada yada)..
(10 minutes later)
me: Are we done, sir?
THEY: yes, besht shtore for buying sarees is... in Mylapore onlee, ennange, very reajonabal prices onlee! Huh! Oh, you are still hiyar? you can go!
****************************************************

Classic desi babucracy.


So... my concluding conclusion:

In India, R&D on jet engines is not run or led by anyone who is serious about advancing the technology of jet engines in India.

Recommendation: The development of a world-class capability to design and build advanced jet engines is absolutely critical to national security, and is worth hundreds of billions of dollars each year. This capability can be developed only through a coherent, determined program where the best of university and industry capabilities is carefully sought and brought in, with competition used to keep the pace of innovation high. This cannot be left any longer to GTRE/HAL as currently configured.

The power plants of their planes, tanks and ships are crucial elements of national security and protecting India's hard-won freedom. Putting these at the mercy of foreign governments, borders on treason. However, if Indians are serious about closing this vulnerability, they must insist on serious action from their government.

In Bangalore at present, the GTRE is the second-best of the two establishments nominally associated with gas turbine research - the first being the General Electric Jack E Welsh Research Center. US-based top GE executives take great pains to insist to US audiences and government agencies that that no critical research related to military systems ("Crown Jewels") actually happens inside the GE JEW RC (running codes to optimize sales proposals for maintenance upgrades, or responding to cusomer complaints, is not the leading edge of research. However, it appears that GTRE does little more than this at present, or for the past 20 years.

However, I do not recommend that GTRE be closed or disbanded. Instead, it should be expanded. The parts associated with routine development functions should be moved closer to the operations and manufacturing side of aircraft development programs, and senior personnel could be deputed to serve with engine factories in Nasik, Air force deployments in Leh and Tezpur, and in Rajasthan and in the Andaman/Nicobar islands, to better appreciate the Special Diversity of Indian Operating Conditions and provide their unique leadership. What remains in Bangalore should be a small core of dedicated researchers, charged with ensuring that India catches up and surpasses the rest of the world in all tecnologies that enable world-class propulsion systems.


OK, rahul, my LCA paper is done. Can I go back to learning the HoKo in the BENIS madarssa? No intell-e-jant lyeeoh hiyar onlee!.... :P

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Drevin » 03 Aug 2009 21:04

OK, Beloveds! With Vikram's posts, and vina's post, its now AhA! time. I finally "got it", and Drevin's post resonates cleanly off this titanium-hulled conclusion.


Actually i think you may be right. The elegant way in which you have put it makes me inclined to believe it is titanium hulled conclusion. just sad to see it is really true. So thats it :?: GTRE packs its bags and leaves :?:

Look we have some hope .... there will be a LCA-MK2 ....... maybe titanium-hull develops some weaknesses over time :?: I sincerely hope that we are all wrong and atleast it can be resurrected for the twin engine MCA .. :?: Yes? No?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SanjibGhosh » 03 Aug 2009 21:21

This project is independent of LCA development as RPF for new engine has been already been sent to manufacturers. If DRDO and GRTE can develop Kaveri within 48 months then good, but anyway the first 99 engine will be from either GE or from EJ.



http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=51463
/
LOK SABHA/

Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has offered to co-develop and co-produce 90 kN thrust class of upgraded Kaveri engine with M/s Snecma, France to meet the operational requirement of Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Tejas with 48 months from the date of project inception. DRDO and M/s Snecma are jointly responsible for engine design, development, flight trials and certification in Tejas. The modified Kaveri engine proposal provides comparable thrust throughout the flight envelope of Tejas. Minimum changes are required in the airframe to integrate this engine without affecting the weight and configuration of Tejas.

The proposal for co-development was considered by Indian Air Force. Indian Air Force has suggested a proven engine that is already in production and flight worthy for meeting immediate requirement. Request for Proposal (RFP) has been issued to reputed engine manufacturers.

This information was given by Minister of Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Suresh Kalmadi and Shri Vilas Mutttemwar in Lok Sabha today.

SAMEER / RAJ

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 03 Aug 2009 21:30

Flight testing of Tejas
Taking into account certain changes in the objectives proposed by Indian Air Force, the second quarterly review held in March 2007 by the Empowered Committee chaired by Chief of Air Staff (CAS) have recommended the date for Final Operational Clearance for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas as December 2012.

To complete the project in time, a high level review is being conducted by the CAS once in every quarter and by the Deputy Chief of Air Staff once in every month.This information was given by Minister of Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Adhalrao Patil Shivaji in Lok Sabha today

http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=51464

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Neela » 03 Aug 2009 21:36

All,


The IGMDP was seen as very critical by the GoI to national security. In 2 decades, platforms were developed and today we are in a stage where we can design to specified parameters.

Can it be said that the desi engine need that kind of support, money and dedication? Should be it put in the same league?

From the above posts, me thinks so.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 03 Aug 2009 21:36

atleast it can be resurrected for the twin engine MCA .. Yes? No?


The way things are, NO WAY, sorry. They will do for the MCA exactly what they did for the LCA - "ITAR-Hant". :mrgreen: They will announce "progress" towards a SuperCruise, All-Axis Thrust Vectoring Flat-rated 0 to 150,000 ft, Variable Hybrid Cycle Kaveri-2 for the MCA, and we will all jump up and down in excitement, as "leak" after "leak" cites the major strides being taken by this uber-fantastic engine. Nano Fabrication! Carbon Picotubes! MicroChannel Fin Cooling! All-aspect Inlet Separation Avoidance and Active Surge Suppression! Thrust-Augmenting Ejector With Plasma Shear Layer Control! Individual Stage Attitude Control! Buzzword this! Buzword that! BioMimetic Nonlinear FiberOptic Fuel Cell Technology (BIMNFOFC)! "90 percent complete!" "Totally Indigenous with Only 97% Russian and 2% French Collaborashun!"

Voila! The engines that the US puts on the F-22 and the F-35 will become "available" to India as a Special Strategic Relationship, with EUMA-IV, and half the national Trade Surplus and payroll taxes committed to be paid to the US/Oirope. Then magically, we will hear that the Sea Level Static Test (SLST), a new and exotic requirement, has been unfairly imposed on the Kaveri-2 by the cruel and unreasonable IAF. Can poor, beleaguered, overworked, underpaid GTRE be blamed, I pooch joo?

You saw my estimate of the amount of BegaDollars involved. Please check whether I am overstating or understating the cost - or the baksheesh pojjibilitiej.

The only hope is if there is enough of an outcry to force a really serious R&D program in jet propulsion. Which is where BRF may be able to contribute something really positive.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Aug 2009 21:52

In addition ...............

Technology nirvana is binary. Either India has it or it does not. For the same technology to be used the technology has to be made available by a certain date. working backward the question is if there is enough seeded research to meet these conditions and is there enough funding to make it happen.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Katare » 03 Aug 2009 22:03

Neela wrote:All,


The IGMDP was seen as very critical by the GoI to national security. In 2 decades, platforms were developed and today we are in a stage where we can design to specified parameters.

Can it be said that the desi engine need that kind of support, money and dedication? Should be it put in the same league?

From the above posts, me thinks so.


Making single use SS missiles are simpler as compared to making state of the art 30 year life fighter aircrafts, aero engines or MBTs. Countries like NoKO, Pak and Iran are churning out missiles by dozens that go thousands of KM.

A better way would have been if we started by designing and producing major subassemblies, components, avionics, upgrade packages and than graduate to complete platform design and manufacturing when a large and competent industrial base has been developed.

Indian approach has been reversed we started designing and developing entire platform with the goal of developing industrial base. While we thought that ToT for manufacturing would develop our MIC for component design and manufacturer.

Anyhow we chose our approach and no one can accuse Indians of not being ambitious enough. To improve it we need to hitch our wagon with top companies of the world to get technology gaps filled out in existing projects.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 03 Aug 2009 23:15

Sorry 2 b so negative, but in the Kaveri story there is no relief.

the technology has to be made available by a certain date. working backward the question is if there is enough seeded research to meet these conditions and is there enough funding to make it happen.


Yes, but if you look at the time scales, it is not a case of IAF being impatient, not even considering the fact that they are the ones who pay with their lives if the technology is not up to that of the other side. How many PhD theses can you find on jet propulsion from Indian universities? How many of these were funded by GTRE? Where is the evidence that GTRE has led the nation to make the advances needed to catch up on engine technology? So far I hear of one paper which is basically a "status summary". I am sure there are many more, because any full-time researcher (and if you work at GTRE, what are you if u r not a researcher?) is expected to publish a minimum of 2 or 3, usually 6 or 8, papers each year. So where is GTRE's footprint in research for all its years of existence?

For the argument that jet engines are more complicated and difficult to make than space rockets or guided missiles - sorry, but that is not the case. Jet engines are, in relation, far easier. I will go so far as to say that if you can manufacture motor cycles and good automobile engines and even railway locomotives, there is absolutely no reason why you should not be able to manufacture top-notch jet engines, of course all need good research and design. And NO, the Indian establishment has NOT, by any stretch of the imagination, been "ambitious" in jet engine technology. In 1947 we were far more ambitious and close to the state of the art than India is today. MANY other countries have excellent capabilities in this respect, and they are mostly far smaller and have fewer resources than India.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby k prasad » 03 Aug 2009 23:43

I won't get into the nitty gritties here... JMTC on this discussion goin on:

1. Kaveri bypass s 0.18 and not the optimal 0.35 becoz a) We wanted a small plane and hence a small engine and b) Our engine tech was non-existant back then, leading to a relatively large core... hence, a large core but small size automatically means small bypass ratio. Hence the need for the Eco core.

2. Kaveri project itself was sanctioned in '86-88. If we tThe same timeline for M88 would mean that Kaveri would get on the LCA only in 2009.

3. GTRE hadn't developed a single proper engine before Kaveri... obviously they were way out of their league. The director himself admitted that the project was pushed on them, and that they themselves knew they were not ready. Still, they went ahead.

4. Given the state of the metallurgy in India and the general tech level, it is obvious that Kaveri was meant to give those areas a boost rather than vice-versa. It is important that these get developed... we've achieved some of it, but a lot more commitment is needed

5. Govt is apathetic about the state of the facilities... this is criminal.

6. Its easy to pin complete blame on GTRE for whatever, but without considering their situation and constraints, that is a completely unfair criticism. That isn't to say they are not at fault, but it requires an un-clouded eye to see how much of the brickbats they're getting is fair.

7. Under no circumstances should you blame GTRE for the TBC, BLISK and other materials related technology gaps - DMRL deserves the criticism for that. Not GTRE. Again, budget issues.... Saraswat was extremely peeved when he told us about the issues - the money that MoD gives to run teh whole DMRL lab is how much the Japs spend on a single alloy development. Even accounting for cost differentials, these labs are suffering thanks to low outlays and even worse disbursement by babus.

8. IGMDP had full govt support, including cost, manpower and quick decision making. Aircraft engines are seen as second rung. second, they are certainly complex beasts. No easy way around them. Without good enough R&D, there is no way to scale the tech ladder. And unlike electronics or other fields, where we can easily get tech that is a couple of gens behind State of art and takeoff from there, engines and materials is one place that they won't even give you 50 yr old tech even if u kidnap their mothers and put a gun to the poor lady's head.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby suryag » 04 Aug 2009 00:55

k prasad wrote:, where we can easily get tech that is a couple of gens behind State of art and takeoff from there, engines and materials is one place that they won't even give you 50 yr old tech even if u kidnap their mothers and put a gun to the poor lady's head.


Kidnapping mother in law may help

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Gagan » 04 Aug 2009 01:02

You'll have to pull that trigger before they agree to help. :shock:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Sandipan » 04 Aug 2009 01:33

One year before, the discussion on this thread was upbeat and everybody was more or less convinced that we are firmly behind LCA and it is matter of time before we have full squadrons of LCAs defending our country. Its just a matter of time. Now with these gloomy news of delay in new LSPs and unavailability of pilots, the delay seems to be killing the project. It seems we may at best get a trainer aircraft if not a technology demonstrator.

Even more gloomy are the news of Kaveri being given up as an aircraft engines and is now being developed for tanks, ships etc.

It seems we have dropped the ball in last leg. :cry: :cry:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Srivastav » 04 Aug 2009 01:49

^^ On BR we always go in circles, and this current bout of beleiving DDM and waiting to hear the death knell for LCA has happened many times before and will happen again in the future. Only the people and timing changes, while issues remains the same. It eventually stops for a little while cuz some guru will explain to us why things are not so bleak but then after a time period someone agains raises the same topic.

Kaveri for marine use or for locomotives etc is a natural progression. Now if the govt tomorrow decides that all the work on kaveri will stop and it wont be used for anything, well that might be construed as a "failure". If we believe DDM and its true that they will test kaveri on Rajput class soon, then atleast well get a marine turbine out of all of this.

Also if i remember correctly most of the good news last year was a few months before the AeroIndia and a few months after. Also dirth of new news isnt really a bad thing.

Personally, i chose to wait and watch, rather than worry bout LCA not being good enough or IAF not happy with it so they are basing in in the Southern parts of india.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby NRao » 04 Aug 2009 02:00

Sandipan,

That upbeat-ness still exists, the IAF is accepting 40 crafts.

But, has also stipulated a more stringent regime on those crafts that come after those 40. Which is what is causing the current stomach upset. More specifically, the need for a more powerful engine.

Outside of that BR is trying to ensure that GTRE does not fall asleep after that effort. The end product of THIS thread will be a proposal on what to do (and what NOT to do) to get the all powerful Kaveri-III up and about for the MCA in 2020.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Sandipan » 04 Aug 2009 03:32

I have a notion that its not DRDO labs but these PSU behemoths like HAL, CVRDE, BDL who are responsible for churning out production numbers are failing to do so. They have to much in their plate to chew and are not adequately manned. Their production lines might be archaic without automations that we generally see in a modern car plant. They might be too much labor oriented and are unable to speed up. So everywhere from Aircrafts to tanks, we are behind schedule.

Private participation in production like what we did in case of Pinaka MRLS might be the way forward.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 04 Aug 2009 05:47

Unless the debate gets beyond the Dubya level of
R U with us or against us?
there is no hope. Of course, such solutions as "Wait and see, Fate will Favor us!" do not require BR MilForum to articulate them when there are so many excellent Astrology outfits now using the latest Computer technology. It is precisely because the Indian Mid/Upper Management is full of these people who react to careful technical arguments with these "Chalta Hai, All is Maya, WhyPhor you are worrying?" Smart Comebacks, that Defence Procurement is in such sad state. Either these guys are functionally illiterate or they are clueless political appointee hacks. Probably both.

Sorry, but just last night I spent an hour on the phone listening to an old friend who has been beating his head against the dense walls of babudom in a part of the defence establishment that the people depend on, to supply a very very critical weapon system - trying to get them to do what is clearly proven by technical reports, to improve the system before soldiers find out the hard way ... if I take out some of that on somebody here who comes in with these homilies, well... :twisted:

The news here about LCA that triggered my writing is:
a) ****The indigenous engine program that was to power the LCA has been dropped***, with the craft already overdue for production, and the IAF starved for a MiG 21 replacement, and China doing wargames with no Indian border for Kashmir or Arunachal (see china thread).
b) This puts the LCA program at the mercy of foreign engine suppliers, who now get to dominate the entire Indian engine evolution for the next 20 years.
c) With imported engines, LCA production will be in fits and starts - 20 planes here, 20 planes there. The whole point of such a program is to enable India to PRODUCE excellent aircraft with many diverse mission capabilities, in LARGE numbers. Not to build a few for air shows and Republic Din Parades.

People here need to get a grasp on what it will take to deter Chinese aggression and win defence independence for India. Do a bit of serious thinking - the First Lines of Defence, whatever India puts up, will last about 8 hours if things go extremely well for India. The IAF can expect 50% losses within the first week, of so lucky, starting from today's numbers. To deter and win, IAF and IA need really BIG numbers of aircraft and missiles.

How many planes did the US lose in Vietnam?
How many of any successful aircraft actually got built? Look at Mig21, Mig23, Su27, MiG29, F-16, for comparisons. It's not "40" each.
How many aircraft does the PLAF really have?

Please get a grasp on these in discussing why it is important to have engines developed and produced in India for IAF craft.

At the very least, consider this: There is NO secrecy in the LCA program as long as the engines have to come from abroad. The people who supply the engine have to know every detail of what the LCA can do. Is this the way to build a winning military?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 04 Aug 2009 06:00

Prasad ji gives an honest assessment of why things were done the way they were done in the Kaveri program. But now that the Kaveri program must be considered as not having delivered for the LCA, it is totally fair to analyze what went wrong. For the GTRE director to whine about having the project forced on them... well.... the boys who went up in the night to recapture the posts in Kargil also had that forced on them, hey? They didn't ask Musharraf to infest the pristine peaks with vermin. WHO else in India, in the Hon. Director's opinion, should have been tasked to lead the engine development?

Goes back to my conclusion: GTRE was never serious about having the Kaveri power the LCA in combat.

I am sure I understand WHY GTRE chose a bypass ratio of 0.18 - it is because the engine that they proposed was a 1970s technology engine. If your core is too inefficient, it has a large volume and weight per unit thrust produced. And the turbine is weak. So to fit the engine in a given fuselage, you are left with not much option but to go with low bypass ratio. And way back in 1986, a 1970s engine was a good first step to take. But this is 2009. Why is there no credible "Godavari" or "Ganga" to present, at least in a mockup with good component numbers behind it?

Where was the technical analysis whistleblowing all these years, saying:
HEY! The Kaveri engine is NO GOOD for a modern fighter plane!
Instead all we got was the hype representing that if the Kaveri engine passed the High Altitude Test, helloooo, on to production we go.

Inescapable fact is that they tried to foist a lousy engine on the IAF.

Blaming DMRE (never heard of them before - what does the R stand for there I wonder..) or some other 4-letter word is no solution. GTRE has to be blamed because it is the outfit that has the letters GT, R and E in its acronym. Providing leadership in engine technology to India is THEIR responsibility, and they should have been the ones adjusting course to make sure the right things were getting developed in time.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby JaiS » 04 Aug 2009 06:11


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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Aug 2009 06:29

saw this in ET yesterday. let me fan the flames and retreat to watch the fun. I think he got the weight
wrong though. a MAV of 7kg doesnt need a turbofan engine, a simple prop will do.

DRDO to tweak aircraft engine to power battle tanks, locomotives
3 Aug 2009, 0238 hrs IST, Peerzada Abrar, ET Bureau

BANGALORE: India’s defence scientists are tweaking Kaveri engine — originally meant for the country’s light combat aircraft (LCA) project —
to power battle tanks, railway locomotives and commercial and naval ships, after project delays forced the country to seek help from private sector firms for the LCA project.

“We are developing the marine version of Kaveri called Kaveri Marine Gas Turbine for India’s Rajput class of ships. It has been transported to Naval Dockyard of Vishakapatnam and is being worked on in the test bed. After making the modifications, we will fit it on board of any Indian warship,” said a scientist at the department of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO). Originally meant for powering India’s LCAs, the Rs 2,839-crore Kaveri project is almost two decades old.

“The second potential we are seeing is in the Indian Railways which have to transport iron ore, metal and other heavy items — it will not only reduce the weight but also make transportation much faster,” the scientist added. Another defence official added that Kaveri could even be used for powering battle tanks, the way America’s Abrams tanks are fitted with Honeywell-manufactured gas turbine engines.

Meanwhile, officials are also working at developing a smaller version of Kaveri, which could power drones-unmanned aerial vehicles. “DRDO is also developing a mini Kaveri engine which has a power of 1.2 MW for other applications,” said a DRDO scientist. A top scientist from National Aerospace Laboratories also confirmed this.

A defence industry expert said: “The mini Kaveri will be used for payloads for the next generation of unmanned aerial vehicles also known as Drones which can be 7 kg in weight,”
he said. The Indian defence is trying to make these Drones, using silica instead of metal so that when they are sent for attack or reconnaissance, they don’t leave any trace behind and disintegrate like sand. However, Kaveri will have to prove itself for these newer applications.

“There are certain technological challenges such as how to prevent gas turbine engine like Kaveri from getting stuck due to climatic conditions and sand in the desert area once it is fitted in armoured fighting land-based vehicles,” said a DRDO scientist.

Indeed, it could be some time before Kaveri is successfully deployed in other applications. “The applications of the Kaveri engine are wide but as it is designed for the aerospace platform, it needs to proven first before it can implemented in warships, commercial shipping, submarines and battle tanks,” the defence expert quoted earlier said.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Aug 2009 06:31

the statesman.

DRDO proposes upgraded version of Kaveri engine

NEW DELHI, 3 AUG: The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) has proposed to co-develop and co-produce an upgraded version of Kaveri engine with French engine manufacturers Snecma for the light combat aircraft (LCA) but the IAF has suggested that a proven and flight worthy engine be put on the aircraft, the Lok Sabha was informed
today.
DRDO has offered to co-develop and co-produce 90 KN thrust class of upgraded Kaveri engine with Snecma to meet the operational requirements of LCA within 48 months of due date of project inception,” the defence minister, Mr A K Antony, (in photograph) said in a written reply.
“Indian Air Force (IAF) has suggested a proven engine that is already in production and flight worthy for meeting immediate requirements,” he added

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Aug 2009 06:32

TOI

Sounding the death knell for Kaveri, IAF has shot down the offer of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) to co-develop and co-produce the "90kN thrust class of upgraded Kaveri engine'' with French company Snecma to meet Tejas' operational requirements, defence minister A K Antony told Parliament on Monday.

DRDO contended the modified Kaveri engine would provide "comparable thrust throughout the flight envelope of Tejas''. Moreover, it would require minimum changes in airframe to integrate this engine without affecting the weight and configuration of the single-seater fighter.

"IAF, however, has suggested a proven engine that is already in production and flight-worthy for meeting immediate requirements. The RFP (request for proposal) has been issued to reputed engine manufacturers,'' said Antony.

Incidentally, the GE-414 and EJ-200 engines power the American F/A-18 and Eurofighter, respectively, two of the six jets in the race to bag IAF's $10.4 billion project to acquire 126 "medium'' multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA).

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Singha » 04 Aug 2009 06:35

machinist.in

Pratt & Whitney Establishes Endowed Chair in Gas Turbine Engineering in India
Written by Arjun
Wednesday, 15 July 2009
Bangalore: Pratt & Whitney, a United Technologies Corp( NYSE-UTX) company, has established an endowed professorship in Gas Turbine Engineering at the Indian Institute of Science in Bangalore.

Through the endowed chair, Pratt & Whitney will work with the Indian Institute of Science on fundamental and applied research initiatives that support the design and development of more efficient and environment friendly gas turbine engines. The chair will focus on advanced research in propulsion system technology.

Paul Adams, Senior Vice President, Pratt & Whitney engineering and Prof.B.N.Raghunandan, former Chairman of the Department of Aerospace Engineering"With this chair we will develop a stronger relationship with the institute. We will have better access to key technical talent here at the institute. It also helps create an emphasis on Gas Turbine Engineering, which is our primary field of interest. The endowed chair will further strengthen the relationships between Pratt & Whitney, United Technologies, the Indian educational system and the Indian Government," said Paul Adams, Senior Vice President, Pratt & Whitney engineering.

"The Indian Institute of Science has outstanding technical capabilities that compliments our fundamental research needs," he added.

“By expanding its long term relationship with the Indian Institute of Science, Pratt & Whitney will have increased visibility of future talent in the gas turbine engine field and also will be in a position to recommend future engineers to key Indian business partners, including Infotech and the National Aerospace Laboratories,” said Prof.B.N.Raghunandan, former Chairman of the Department of Aerospace Engineering.

Prof. Raghunandan said that several institutions had sent their nominations for this chair.

This is Pratt & Whitney's second endowed chair in India. The first is a Chair in Science and Engineering that was created at the University of Hyderabad.

"We do research here at NAL, where we have worked with NAL for the last few years and we have a number of aerodynamic rigs that allow us to do fundamental aerodynamic research here in Bangalore," said Paul Adams. Dr A R Upadhya, Director, NAL was also present at the endowment ceremony. Three years ago the company inaugurated a series of test rigs along with NAL. NAL's 14-seater Saras plane, currently under development, is powered by Pratt and Whitney engines.

"We have several IISc employees working for us in the US. In India, through our affiliates, we have over a 1000 engineers across UTC, some of them working specifically on our gas turbine products," he added.

In the light of the current developments, Pratt & Whitney’s R&D work being done out of India, has the potential to increase two fold.

Paul Adams said that Pratt & Whitney was not actively pursuing any defence tie-ups in India. He also said that Pratt & Whitney currently had no plans to participate in the Kaveri engine development programme.

He indicated that the possible procurement of the C-17 Aircraft by India could be an opportunity since it uses Pratt & Whitney engines. When asked about offsets, he said that the offset would be held by the aircraft manufacturer, who could in turn contract it to Pratt & Whitney. However it is too early to identify who we will work with, he added.

In the near future Pratt & Whitney is likely to enter into the component repair space. In the long term the company would also consider setting up an engine facility.

The company is currently working on its Geared Turbofan engine which boasts of double digit reductions in fuel consumption, CO 2 and NO 2 emissions, engine noise, and operating costs. The company is starting the first generation of the geared turbo fan product. It has been selected for the Mitsubishi regional jet and the Bombardier C series. This engine will have a 15% increase in fuel efficiency and less than half the noise footprint of current engines. A good portion of the R&D work on this engine is being done out of India.
Last Updated ( Sunday, 26 July 2009 )

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby putnanja » 04 Aug 2009 07:24

'Indigenous' Tejas fighter to get 'foreign' engines for power

...
The defence ministry has asked two leading aeroengine manufacturers, General Electric (US) and Eurojet Turbo GmbH, to submit their bids within three months to supply 99 engines, with an option for 49 more, for the Mark-II version of Tejas.

With GE F-414 INS5 and EJ-200 being the engines in contention, eight will be bought off-the-shelf, while the other 91 will be manufactured in India under transfer of technology in an estimated $600 million contract.

...
DRDO contended the modified Kaveri engine would provide "comparable thrust throughout the flight envelope of Tejas''. Moreover, it would require minimum changes in airframe to integrate this engine without affecting the weight and configuration of the single-seater fighter.

"IAF, however, has suggested a proven engine that is already in production and flight-worthy for meeting immediate requirements. The RFP (request for proposal) has been issued to reputed engine manufacturers,'' said Antony.

...
...

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 04 Aug 2009 08:15

OK, so it's a mere $6M (INR 300,000,000 ) per engine. Then they hit you on the spare parts...

Indigenous production at least means that there will be a more stable capability to produce. Wonder if BLISKS and single crystal blades will be made, or just imported and assembled.

Actually this is good news, because it means IAF is interested in flying the LCA. 100 + 50 is a nice starting number for 40 a/c and experience will build very fast.

If DRDO can manage to run faster by the side of this train like the kids selling tea at the stations as the train accelerates, and manage to run faster and catch the train, then all is well. But if they sit around for another 2 years, a huge opportunity will have been lost.

In this respect, the decision to put the existing Kaveri-1 on one LCA and get flight experience, is a precious, precious step. Hope they make good use of it. To me, it sounds like this one airplane is far more important to India in the coming year than the one carrying the Poojya Smt President, Poojya Pee Em etc.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 04 Aug 2009 08:19

Pratt & Whitney Establishes Endowed Chair in Gas Turbine Engineering in India

Great development. NOW GE has some real competition. During the cold war they used to say that if a GE or UTC engineer went and married a Russian propulsion engineer, that would be fine, but if same engineer were ever caught drinking coffee with an engineer from the other company, finis.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Gagan » 04 Aug 2009 08:28

Wow Narayanan-ji,
Standing ovation for that series. :shock: As eye opening as the smiley here.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby NRao » 04 Aug 2009 08:47

The IAF decision make sense.

They do not want an unproven engine for the LCA, the Kaveri + Snecma would be just that.

And, I suspect this will give GTRE the time to produce an engine for the MCA.

Kav is not dead.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby chiragAS » 04 Aug 2009 08:55

These tie-ups with premier institutes is bad. boeing with IITB (remember the f18) pratt with IISc.
History has shown US will take all the credit for the research done in foreign institutes and probably deny those to IAF in the name of "US Laws on TOT" :( Remember the logic My money my technology.
probably even some material jugad tech of kaveri will land in pratt design.
(i am using the same logic what former GE chief had once used regarding 404 being copied in kaveri :evil: I hate GE )

Secondly these Institutes are involved in nationally important research indirectly or directly from isro rockets to drdo missiles
and probably submarine material research etc.
So info will trickle out. and US may use this to arm twist even before some research starts.
:evil:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby enqyoob » 04 Aug 2009 08:59

I think there should be a Petition to NEVER EVER use the name KAVERI in the context of an engine again. Aren't there other rivers or static objects to use as names?

Senior jingo: Whaat are you warking on these days, yaar?

Junior jingo: I am waarking aan the Kaveri-25 injun onlee!

At which point SJ will tell JJ what the cruel Seniors at the Ai Ai Tea told poor me as they ambled through the Fitting Shop Gulag and peered at the pitiful state of my progress with the Mild Steel Channel and Bast*rd file (named after the Fitting Shop Manager In Charge of Giving the Worst Files from He** to the stupidest Freshmen):

NO HOPE 4 U, YAAR!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Gagan » 04 Aug 2009 09:00

This move is aimed at getting insider info as soon as possible as a best case scenario, to wean away the brightest minds as a worst case scenario.


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