LCA news and discussion

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harbans
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby harbans » 08 Dec 2009 00:30

Yes. But Boeings and LMs and McDonnells and Northrops were supported by USAF / USN / USM etc. Here IA and IAF "seem" to be very anti Indian and / or "anti-DRDO" at times

I met a current Navy Officer recently and all i heard was DRDO bashing. And thats when Navy has been DRDO's best support relative to the IAF and IA. There's a crop of Officers that are mentally very Westernized in India, i would'nt use the word Macualite in this case, but somewhat borders that. The unslick, slow English speaking 'bumpkin' scientist from DRDO who does'nt know which hand to catch a fork is somewhat ridiculed mentally by a class of Officers in the Forces. I tried gleaning the reason and one thing is emerging..there's a dire need that top Officers are drawn from technical backgrounds with deeper understanding of technology/ tech development cycles etc. There must be subset regiments in the Indian Forces (AI, IAF, IN which use only indigenous equipment.)

Today fighting a war is not going to be an Infantry mans strategy, but will require of top coordinators to understand technology. Even the profile of operators must change to tech savvy. I was saddened to read that DRDO had to put black boxes in Arjun to monitor sabotage of the Engine. After putting them, the incidents ceased. The present Army Chief now approves of Arjuns performance.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sunny y » 08 Dec 2009 11:36

I met a current Navy Officer recently and all i heard was DRDO bashing. And thats when Navy has been DRDO's best support relative to the IAF and IA. There's a crop of Officers that are mentally very Westernized in India, i would'nt use the word Macualite in this case, but somewhat borders that. The unslick, slow English speaking 'bumpkin' scientist from DRDO who does'nt know which hand to catch a fork is somewhat ridiculed mentally by a class of Officers in the Forces. I tried gleaning the reason and one thing is emerging..
Even the profile of operators must change to tech savvy. I was saddened to read that DRDO had to put black boxes in Arjun to monitor sabotage of the Engine. After putting them, the incidents ceased. The present Army Chief now approves of Arjuns performance.

EDITED BIG RANT DELETED
Our scientific community deserves equal respect if not more than our soldiers.
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Reason: Rant deleted - your post will have a better chance of not being edited if it has something that adds value rather than a rant tht goes on and on without substantiation.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sumshyam » 08 Dec 2009 13:21

harbans wrote: Here IA and IAF "seem" to be very anti Indian and / or "anti-DRDO" at times

ohh...I can accept the fact that DRDO don't have the sophistication level of BOEING or LM or any one from western or eastern world... but it does never mean that they deserve not more than being butt of your jokes...!

Anyhow...this SEEM is a feeling thing. Like noses, every one have their own feeling and understanding....! I also have some friends in armed forces and they want me to join DRDO/BRAHMOS after my graduation....definitely they don't want me to be at the receiving end of jokes.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Neshant » 08 Dec 2009 13:30

It means approx 29 million $ each....isn't it too much...!


money spent within the country is a heck of a lot better than 29 million going out to some foreign arms dealer. that is a total loss.

in fact money spent within the country has a multiplier effect.

the loss of that money to some foreign arms dealer has a (negative) multiplier effect as well.

I don't care if it costs 290 million a piece. The LCA has got to be inducted or GTRE has to be shut down for good. They remain the only possible reason the LCA could fail.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sumshyam » 08 Dec 2009 17:02

Neshant wrote:the loss of that money to some foreign arms dealer has a (negative) multiplier effect as well.

I don't care if it costs 290 million a piece. The LCA has got to be inducted or GTRE has to be shut down for good.


I will say....."hmmmmmmmmmm".

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby shiv » 08 Dec 2009 17:07

Self delete

Message OT - will be reposted in the DRDO thread

Sorry OT - but I put some thoughts down re this in the DRDO thread.
Last edited by shiv on 08 Dec 2009 17:12, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Arun KS » 08 Dec 2009 17:11

It means approx 29 million $ each....isn't it too much...! :((


I dont think so considering the small scales of order and tech offered in return. The IAF version LCA is supposed to cost 25million and the naval one will cost 31 million as per wikipedia

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby shravan » 08 Dec 2009 20:07


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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sumshyam » 08 Dec 2009 20:17



and it says that...
India’s indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas went past its ultimate speed of 1,350 KMPH over the Goa skies and clocked the fastest speed ever, a top IAF officer said on Tuesday.


means...LCA is barely supersonic....!!

I am really very very surprised....!!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Vivek K » 08 Dec 2009 20:26

is that speed at sea level? If so then that's good. We already know that top speed achieved at altitude was Mach 1.4+ though it is shown as rated for Mach 1.8.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby KrishG » 08 Dec 2009 20:37

Vivek K wrote:is that speed at sea level? If so then that's good. We already know that top speed achieved at altitude was Mach 1.4+ though it is shown as rated for Mach 1.8.


Yes, I think it was the sea level speed because are numerous reports on TD-1 or TD-2 (don't remember exactly) making it to 1.1 Mach in early 2004 and 1.4 Mach by PV-1 in mid-2005.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sumshyam » 08 Dec 2009 20:39

Vivek K wrote:is that speed at sea level?


Nothing like that is mentioned....except
“This is the fastest speed ever achieved by an Indian- made fighter aircraft,” he said.
The aircraft also passed flight flutter test diving from an altitude of four kilometers to almost sea level at 900 feet.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby nrshah » 08 Dec 2009 20:40

Can it be typo error? it being 1350 miles per hour?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sumshyam » 08 Dec 2009 20:44

nrshah wrote:Can it be typo error? it being 1350 miles per hour?


I think it must be this only....only then it is coming upto 1.76...!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 08 Dec 2009 20:56

sumshyam wrote:
Vivek K wrote:is that speed at sea level?


Nothing like that is mentioned....except

THAT SPEED IS AT SEA LEVEL :!: Mach 1 at sea level = to 340.3 m/s, 761.2 mph, 1,225 km/h
Panaji, Dec 8 : Light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas notched a speed of over 1,350 km per hour -- the fastest by an indigenously-made fighter aircraft -- during its sea level flight trials off Goa Tuesday, a senior Indian Air Force official said.

Indian-made fighter plane Tejas clocks fastest speed

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Dec 2009 21:02

wouldnt the additional side air intakes introduced in the PVs allow it to attain the desired top speed at altitude of Mach1.8? I thought it was introduced for this reason - to increase air massflow at height.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Venu » 08 Dec 2009 21:04

India’s indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas went past its ultimate speed of 1,350 KMPH over the Goa skies and clocked the fastest speed ever, a top IAF officer said on Tuesday.


It says LCA went past its ultimate speed of 1,350 KMPH. Does this mean that it actually flew faster than 1,350 KMPH?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kakarat » 08 Dec 2009 21:13

LCA-Tejas has completed 1260 Test Flights successfully. (09-Dec-09).


LCA has completed 1260 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-235,PV2-128,PV3-188,LSP1-54,LSP2-116,PV5-1).
235th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 08th Dec 09.
188th flight of Tejas PV3 occurred on 08th Dec 09.
116th flight of Tejas LSP2 occurred on 08th Dec 09.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 08 Dec 2009 21:13

Venu wrote:
India’s indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas went past its ultimate speed of 1,350 KMPH over the Goa skies and clocked the fastest speed ever, a top IAF officer said on Tuesday.


It says LCA went past its ultimate speed of 1,350 KMPH. Does this mean that it actually flew faster than 1,350 KMPH?

YES. The english doesn't get any clear than that. Don't expect any country to give out the official speed data either. Various reports state that it went in excess of, or over, or past or etc.. the designated speed. That should tell you the number is for BF Jingos like ourselves ONLY!, not for Mulla's sitting across the border for precise calculations!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby RKumar » 08 Dec 2009 21:22

Kakarat wrote:LCA-Tejas has completed 1260 Test Flights successfully. (09-Dec-09).


more then 2 flights a day (since 26-Nov) :eek: :eek:
Keep it up HAL, ADA, IAF :lol: :lol:
Did anyone noticed LSP2 is making a flight daily??

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby K Mehta » 08 Dec 2009 21:32

LCA at INS Hansa for sea level tests. I think the FADEC has been modified, leading to greater speed.
The trials which lasted for two weeks comprised of flutter clearances, weapons firing, performance, stability and avionics validation


Also flutter envelope has been expanded.
Any news on the artificial deck that was being built at INS Hansa? If that has been built, these tests have even greater importance.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby KrishG » 08 Dec 2009 21:47

Does anybody know the max speed of LCA without afterburners at sea-level ?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby K Mehta » 08 Dec 2009 22:02

Regarding the preference of new engine for LCA here is some old info from ADA folks

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby KrishG » 08 Dec 2009 22:10

http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Fighter-aircraft-Tejas-clocks-fastest-speed-during-testing/551536/

The aircraft also passed flight flutter test diving from an altitude of four kilometers to almost sea level at 900 feet.


The pullout from this sort of a dive at 900 ft (250m) could be around 7g-8g. IIRC this would be the highest g-force experienced by LCA and very close to the design spec. :D :D :D

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 08 Dec 2009 22:15

KrishG wrote:Does anybody know the max speed of LCA without afterburners at sea-level ?

if you have read the last few pages then you know that Jagan heard that it went supersonic without A/B. :wink:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby K Mehta » 08 Dec 2009 22:20

^^ lot of info in the article
This is the fastest speed ever achieved by an Indian- made fighter aircraft

The IAF is likely to base the lightweight multi-role jet fighters at Sulur in Coimbatore. “They are earmarked for squadron no 45, which will be the first LCA squadron

It can fly from a base and also from an aircraft carrier
This tells me my hunch about the artificial deck might be true.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby suryag » 08 Dec 2009 23:24

The reported number of flights for testing seems to indicate there are two paths taken by the team. The flight test data released shows pv1 and lsp-2 being extensively tested. Given the general understanding that PV1 would have lots of instrumentation, the PV1 flights are most likely to qualify weapons testing w/o on board radar. LSP2 being the production standard aircraft is most likely used for flight envelope testing. The usual sarkari silence is doing no good to the enthu of jingos here, hopefully, they release some details of how close we are to IOC. Of course, i know nothing about flight testing except from what i learned from the tejas book by Rajkumar garu

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Katare » 08 Dec 2009 23:52

Nice to know that they are already working on getting the IOC certificate.

The program would come back on track if two things happen ASAP

1) Radar integration completed so that LSPs starts flying (4 more to fly)
2) New engine selected

If Radar is mated successfully than we are good for IOC and induction of two squads of LCA.

Once new engine is selected and mated, the entire program should be back on tracks for ~8 Squads of induction in IAF.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby ankit-s » 08 Dec 2009 23:54

could be around 7g-8g. IIRC this would be the highest g-force experienced by LCA and very close to the design spec



When the aircraft is diving, its known as negative-G force, far from cobra manuvour of positive G Force of 9+..........With G-suit on you would be okey, other than that you have to face the music.

However negative g will never cause a black out, because it pushes blood into your head. You could cause high negative g by pushing on the stick. Most fighter airplanes are only built to take about 3 negative g.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 08 Dec 2009 23:58

Among all the brouhaha about Tejas achieving it's fastest speed ever, strangely enough none of the articles mention whether it was in a clean configuration or loaded with dummy weapons. It would truly be a feat if this testing (of achieving this speed) was done with all pylons covered with dummies rather than in clean config...But then again it's better to learn how to crawl, walk and then run, instead of just dreaming of walking and running...

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby arya » 09 Dec 2009 00:10

self deleted
Last edited by arya on 09 Dec 2009 00:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sam_kamath » 09 Dec 2009 00:10

sumshyam wrote:Fighter aircraft Tejas clocks fastest speed during testing
Dec 08, 2009

and it says that...
India’s indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas went past its ultimate speed of 1,350 KMPH over the Goa skies and clocked the fastest speed ever, a top IAF officer said on Tuesday.

means...LCA is barely supersonic....!!

I am really very very surprised....!!


:-) ... its the same language like sale sale "up to 70% off" ... I think in terms of operational activities please see this development in terms of a Jaguar (IS) ... which has a speed Max 1.1 at sea level (ref wiki) ... than look where the first squadron of LCA is coming up.... small aircraft .. so low RCS... same load carrying capacity... better radius... multimode radar... ability to protect itself if needed...faster speed for a LO-Lo-lo mission.... can carry the club....

now you know the significance of why test this in GOA for speed...and why ADA says the 414 should provide some additional thrust in some parts of the flight regime...

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby ankit-s » 09 Dec 2009 00:22

Craig Alpert wrote:Among all the brouhaha about Tejas achieving it's fastest speed ever, strangely enough none of the articles mention whether it was in a clean configuration or loaded with dummy weapons. It would truly be a feat if this testing (of achieving this speed) was done with all pylons covered with dummies rather than in clean config...But then again it's better to learn how to crawl, walk and then run, instead of just dreaming of walking and running...



The combat jet was in a DIVING mode - with maximum negative G Force of 3 - what does it matter if the hard points were covered or not?

The pertinent question here should have been whether the nose dive was under free fall or in a acceleration mode!

Dont you think so?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 09 Dec 2009 00:37

ankit-s wrote:The combat jet was in a DIVING mode - with maximum negative G Force of 3 - what does it matter if the hard points were covered or not?

The pertinent question here should have been whether the nose dive was under free fall or in a acceleration mode!

Dont you think so?

um NO! These are 2 parallel discussions.. last I read the article correctly, it said the aircraft achieved the speed, NOT DIVING but rather FLYING..
o and by the way it ALWAYS MATTERS if the aircraft was flying that speed in a clean config or if it was fully loaded, because if god forbid it had to ever go on a mission with full load, and required to achieve that speed, well let's just say the rest will be history.. Flying fast with empty weight is a no big deal, if you can't tap on the speed when you really need it during combat with combat load, but then again you probably were only thinking about DIVING..
What YOU are referring to is the stress put on the airframe by the negative G's.. so get it 2 DIFFERENT questions, 2 different discussions! and as far as the "pertinent question of yours" I guess that would have to depend on the wing cmdr flying Tejas, if he was in the mood of free falling or accelerating..Don't you think so???

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Dec 2009 00:47

craig, do you know the max speed achieved with load for most of the fighters that are flying today ? (if any ?) *
then why do you think that will be divulged so easily for the LCA ?

sometimes we move into nit-picking mode when it comes to Indian projects. we hold them to a standard that no one else even hopes to achieve.

* if you do please provide us with the MTOW vs max speed achieved graph for the following :
M2k
mig-29
F-16
su-30mki

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 09 Dec 2009 01:00

Rahul M wrote:craig, do you know the max speed achieved with load for most of the fighters that are flying today ? (if any ?) *
then why do you think that will be divulged so easily for the LCA ?

sometimes we move into nit-picking mode when it comes to Indian projects. we hold them to a standard that no one else even hopes to achieve.

* if you do please provide us with the MTOW vs max speed achieved graph for the following :
M2k
mig-29
F-16
su-30mki

Rahul,
I never expected that information to be divulged in the first place... Infact just a couple of posts earlier, I stated the exact same thing that you stated, regarding no country divulging offical figures.. However, what I do know and hope others would agree, is that releasing info on whether it was in the clean config or not was an anomaly and it would be a feat of sorts if they tested it with MTOW. Other than that, I don't expect any more information being released by the ADA, as i'm sure Mullah's from across the border would love to know more "in-depth" details...
As far as holding Indain Projects with high standards, reminds me of a line that AB jr. said "YEH DIL MANGE MORE," but jokes apart, I never compared national capability with that of foreign standards, as you can only compare apples to apples and not oranges..

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby ankit-s » 09 Dec 2009 01:07

and by the way it ALWAYS MATTERS if the aircraft was flying that speed in a clean config or if it was fully loaded


Yes it sure makes a difference, but most probably the dummy load would have been there in this case I assume.


I guess that would have to depend on the wing cmdr flying Tejas


Wrong Judgement!

He only follows the benchmarks that are assigned to him, on a test flight, as a test pilot that is. For he has no luxury to do what he would otherwise do on the rules of engagement when on a mission or locked in a dog fight.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 09 Dec 2009 01:19

ankit-s wrote:Yes it sure makes a difference, but most probably the dummy load would have been there in this case I assume.

Wrong Judgement!

He only follows the benchmarks that are assigned to him, on a test flight, as a test pilot that is. For he has no luxury to do what he would otherwise do on the rules of engagement when on a mission or locked in a dog fight.

ahhh, my friend you hit the nail on that one! Assume being the key word here and if indeed true then it is indeed a great deal for LCA..
Correct - with the test piolt code of conduct. ROE (or at least I hope) should never come into play for a TEST pilot TESTING an aircraft... but like you, I Assumed :wink: that in this case he had the liberty of deciding how he wanted to test the negative G's.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby abhiti » 09 Dec 2009 02:59

sumshyam wrote:and it says that...
India’s indigenous light combat aircraft Tejas went past its ultimate speed of 1,350 KMPH over the Goa skies and clocked the fastest speed ever, a top IAF officer said on Tuesday.


means...LCA is barely supersonic....!! I am really very very surprised....!!


I am not sure why are you surprised. It doesn't tell you what speed is being talked about and at what altitude.

x-posting from Su 30 mki thread, checkout max near ground speed for Su 30 mki.

http://en.rian.ru/infographics/20091125/156980751.html

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Asit P » 09 Dec 2009 03:30

I am now desperately waiting for some good news on the front of radar integration.


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