LCA news and discussion

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby a_kumar » 05 Feb 2010 01:47

Kartik wrote:BTW, Philip had posted in another thread that the LCA's piddly 8-12 per year production line pales in comparison to LM's nearly 1 F-35 per day production line. I wanted to comment on that and it basically relates to the order that is committed to by the IAF. If the IAF had placed an order for nealry 2000 LCA's HAL would've had no option but to go berserk trying to ramp up. We know that it's not possible for that to happen. But if the IAF places orders for 8+20+20 piecemeal wise, then HAL cannot do anything more than set up assembly lines that produce 8-12 per year. It makes no sense for HAL to produce more (like 15-20 per year) when that would mean that its possible that if the IAF doesn't order more, the line would go cold within 2 years itself. Why would HAL spend on so much tooling only for it to be used for 2 years ?? HAL will only spend as much as it economically feasible based on firm orders. if the IAF wants quicker deliveries, it'll cost more. Its the same logic that applies to the Dassault Rafale production line that produces just 12 Rafale's per year. They can easily produce more if required, but why will Dassault pay for the additional tooling and manpower if the Adl'A is happy with the rate at which its getting the current Rafales?


Let me add with an analogy.

To a housewife, it doesn't matter if she buys 1Kg or 2Kg of tomatoes, the vendor is there tomorrow and day after tomorrow and next week as well. And he will always have a 1Kg/2Kg that that housewife might need.

A 5-star hotel or some big-shot caterer serving exclusive organic food is different. They have a set menu pre-planned and they have few reliable suppliers/growers who they can depend on to deliver the select goods no matter what. It becomes pretty exclusive at this stage and in some cases the hotels may have to even keep them happy with orders even when temporary fall in demand.

Our babudom sometimes reacts to a 5-star hotel scenario with housewife-tricks at saving. Now its a chicken egg problem.

(a) Since big numbers were not approved, production rates will be small.
(b) Even though LCA might meet our requirements pretty well tomorrow, since the production rate is too small, IAF has to go with external vendor.

Here is the tail wagging the dog scenario that defense industries in the West have perfected!!

Hypothetically, what IF, HAL stops the conservative number crunching and ramps up production to 20 birds per year (because IAF needs them ASAP and patriotic HAL loves the IAF)?

They would be done in 2.5 years and then be idle. What happens to MRCA if it is still in the churn? Would we still put "all the money" outside instead of pushing it into an already established production line that can churn out more improved birds?

Coming from another angle, after 2.5 years, would we let the production line go idle or add incremental orders with line churning out a squadron every year? Ofcourse, this assumes there are continuous improvements going into the LCA so newer birds keep IAF hooked.

So, I would say, HAL should stop asking for firm orders and focus on expanding production line. Tomorrow when it is idle, put MOD in the dock for leaving the production line idle :mrgreen:. Maybe give an exclusive to Business standard on how the production line is empty!!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby putnanja » 05 Feb 2010 02:00

a_kumar wrote:
So, I would say, HAL should stop asking for firm orders and focus on expanding production line. Tomorrow when it is idle, put MOD in the dock for leaving the production line idle :mrgreen:. Maybe give an exclusive to Business standard on how the production line is empty!!


So you are spending hundreds of crores of rupees expanding the production line, and employing workers, and tomorrow when it is idle, you have excess employees whom you cannot fire, and excess capacity going waste. Not to mention the excess line taking up space where you could have done something more profitable. What will giving exclusive news to Business Standard do? This is how many PSUs went into losses, and govt ended up holding a fat bill paying for wages, golden handshakes etc. It is all tax payers money, why waste it unnecessarily?

IAF/MoD should have a game plan. Plan on how many aircraft the IAF is going to order per year and build production facilities accordingly with some buffer.If IAF is interested in ordering 200 aircraft at the rate of one squadron( approx 20 aircraft) per year, building production lines capable of supplying that should be sufficient.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Cybaru » 05 Feb 2010 02:04

I think after MKI and LCA, IAF is going to get spoilt getting what it wants and I don't think any vendor is going to put up with its ever changing requirements and fickle mind. ADA/HAL must have a lot of patience.. Maybe IAF will learn to eat at home from now onwards.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby a_kumar » 05 Feb 2010 02:22

putnanja wrote:So you are spending hundreds of crores of rupees expanding the production line, and employing workers, and tomorrow when it is idle, you have excess employees whom you cannot fire, and excess capacity going waste. Not to mention the excess line taking up space where you could have done something more profitable. What will giving exclusive news to Business Standard do? This is how many PSUs went into losses, and govt ended up holding a fat bill paying for wages, golden handshakes etc. It is all tax payers money, why waste it unnecessarily?


You are looking at "golden handshakes for older employees" and "hiring from scratch for newer employees" as completely different aspects. The more experienced employees could definitely be diverted to a more active production line instead of giving them golden handshakes and hiring new employees.

The situation you fear should be seen as failure of management to create products that will keep the workforce busy and that should be fixed. Unlike earlier when we were waiting for Russians to throw the technology over the wall or for MOD to decide on the contract, we have a lot better shot at improving the LCA continuously, provided there is support. One cannot expect to churn out 100 or 200 of Tejas-Is. The R&D has to continue to keep the pace developing block-II/III etc.

putnanja wrote:IAF/MoD should have a game plan. Plan on how many aircraft the IAF is going to order per year and build production facilities accordingly with some buffer.


Isn't that the problem! If IAF/MOD were doing that, there is no problem to solve.

What I am getting at is how to force the hand of MOD ("tail wagging the dog"), ofcourse with IAF's support. If IAF isn't happy with Tejas, then again, this is all futile.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby putnanja » 05 Feb 2010 02:46

a_kumar wrote:What I am getting at is how to force the hand of MOD ("tail wagging the dog"), ofcourse with IAF's support. If IAF isn't happy with Tejas, then again, this is all futile.


er, what you forget is that HAL is not a private entity, it is under MoD. All investment plans have to be approved by the defence ministry. They cannot invest hundreds of crores of rupees on their own.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SaiK » 05 Feb 2010 03:33

shiv wrote:Ha! Never thought I'd live to see a day with this type of news item...
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12308
The IAF, long ridiculed as one of the world’s biggest air forces that has never flown its own indigenous fighters, could be flying a squadron of Tejas Light Combat Aircraft by the end of the year.


perhaps the idiotic writer should have checked the wiki, at the very least.
In the 1971 war, some HF-24 Maruts and Hawker Hunter aircraft were used to assist the post at Battle of Longewala in the morning by the Indian Air Force and was finally able to direct with the strike aircraft being guided to the targets. They were not outfitted with night vision equipment, and so were delayed from conducting combat missions until dawn.[3]. On December 7, 1971, SL Kishan Kumar of No. 220 Squadron, shot down a F-86 Sabre over Nayachor in Sindh, Pakistan.[citation needed] This was the only claim made during the war.[citation needed]

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 05 Feb 2010 05:19

LCA project infused with fresh Rs 8,000 crore funding
04 Feb 2010 8ak: Showing solidarity with the development program of indigenous LCA – Tejas, the government has decided to pump additional funding of Rs 8,000 crore in addition to the Rs 4,800 crore it has already spent over the past 27 years.
..................

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Bheem » 05 Feb 2010 09:20

Craig Alpert wrote:LCA project infused with fresh Rs 8,000 crore funding
04 Feb 2010 8ak: Showing solidarity with the development program of indigenous LCA – Tejas, the government has decided to pump additional funding of Rs 8,000 crore in addition to the Rs 4,800 crore it has already spent over the past 27 years.
..................



My guess

Around Rs. 125x40=5000 crores for 40 LCA for IAF including for enhancing the production line, developing indigenous sub-components, their production etc
Around Rs. 1000 Crores for 6 Navy LCA with some diversion to UCAV
Around Rs. 1000 Crores for LCA Mark-2, AESA radar, IRST
Around Rs. 1000 Crores for Snecma Kaveri JV

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby AshokS » 07 Feb 2010 11:24

All -

I am in Bangalore for the next few weeks and would like to try out my luck with my Canon 600 mm setup to get photos of the lovely lady Tejas and perhaps her brute boyfriend LCH... even ALH photos would be welcome...just need to earn my bones in Photog speak. Can anyone suggest a good time to go and try my luck near the HAL airport?

I asked my hired car driver to take me to HAL airport (after he took me to the ISKON, Bull temple, Viddhan soudha, MG road - so I wouldn't look appear to be a strange tourist that wanted to visit the "old airport"). The driver refused saying its not worth it, nothing to see, etc...I did not want to insist since it was getting later and I didn't think he would understand why someone would want to drive around an airport with a camera...come to think about it, it sounds odd and suspicious.

So WHERE do I go to take photos of these home grown Desi birds?

Thanks,

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Carl_T » 09 Feb 2010 01:53

Willy wrote:Well I guess the LCA will always be called the LCA like the F-16 is called the F-16 rather than the viper. "Tejas" just dosent have the punch or the depth.....



It needs more stop consonants to give it a "harder" sound like Arihant.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Carl_T » 09 Feb 2010 01:54

putnanja wrote:Check out this PAK-FA too for the probe :mrgreen:

Image


Did this fly with the AESA radar and the new engine?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 09 Feb 2010 02:02

Carl_T wrote:Did this fly with the AESA radar and the new engine?

Wrong thread, wrong :?: Check the Pak-Fa Thread for your answer. This was answered previously in there. NO!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Carl_T » 09 Feb 2010 04:07

gotcha - just saw it now.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 Feb 2010 17:48

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12350 DRDO lab has developed new electronic warfare system for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas and it would be tested shortly.

India has also developed a "penetration aid" that allows its aircraft to penetrate into enemy territory "without being identified by any of the radars,"

and also..

..to develop systems to divert missiles from various platforms.


wow wow wow.. but needs more details.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby maitya » 09 Feb 2010 18:57

SaiK wrote:
http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=12350 DRDO lab has developed new electronic warfare system for Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) Tejas and it would be tested shortly.

India has also developed a "penetration aid" that allows its aircraft to penetrate into enemy territory "without being identified by any of the radars,"

and also..

..to develop systems to divert missiles from various platforms.


wow wow wow.. but needs more details.

Since automated chaff-flare dispenser would be a mandatory system anyway, does this mean some form of Towed Decoy (ala AN/ALE-50/55 types)? :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kanson » 09 Feb 2010 19:02

^^^ There is a talk of such thing before. More like projecting your radar image and creating false target.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby negi » 09 Feb 2010 19:14

This must be the 'Mayawi'.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby jaladipc » 09 Feb 2010 19:21

An Indian version of Growler?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Feb 2010 19:31

first one sounds like an escort jammer ? something like this http://www.misile-iai.com/sip_storage/files/9/36129.pdf perhaps.

and the second one could be a towed decoy, could be some entirely new approach as well.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Carl_T » 09 Feb 2010 21:25

maitya wrote:Since automated chaff-flare dispenser would be a mandatory system anyway, does this mean some form of Towed Decoy (ala AN/ALE-50/55 types)? :mrgreen:

Is that similar to what is on El Al planes?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 Feb 2010 22:37

may be a ddmite from:-

http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/200 ... adars.html a DRDO affiliate - said they were working on developing radars that would capture images penetrating obstacles such as foliage and concrete walls. “These radars are urgently required by our security forces,”

he foliage penetration radar would be operated from an airborne platform and would be able to detect man and manmade objects hidden below foliage.

He said the AESA radars would be fitted with LCA Mark 2 - an upgraded version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft - slated to be rolled out in 2014.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kartik » 09 Feb 2010 23:17

SaiK wrote:may be a ddmite from:-

"http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/2009/12/drdos-focus-deep-penetration-radars.html a DRDO affiliate - said they were working on developing radars that would capture images penetrating obstacles such as foliage and concrete walls. “These radars are urgently required by our security forces,”

he foliage penetration radar would be operated from an airborne platform and would be able to detect man and manmade objects hidden below foliage.

He said the AESA radars would be fitted with LCA Mark 2 - an upgraded version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft - slated to be rolled out in 2014."


No. Its not DDM so don't get them mixed up. The radar that you're referring to is being worked on by LRDE, not DARE. And it was DARE's Director, U K Revankar, who mentioned that the new EW system that was being developed for the Tejas would be tested shortly. This might most likely be the Mayawi EWS.
I am in touch with a very reliable source and he told me something related to this only about a month ago..There is plenty of ECM and other sensor related developments that are happening. I'm quoting him and if he sees this, credit goes to him.
There was an ADA article that he mentioned, where it said something about the "way ahead with lessons learnt from the Tejas program" and it mentioned a JSF style DAS (full 360 degree visibility) and a long range IRST as well. Due to the sensitivity of the issue, the article didn't mention the exact intended use, but its apparently intended for the Tejas MK2 from what he could discern. here, he felt that the cooperation with Israel made total sense as Israel is one of the handful of countries (the others being US and France with Sofradir, plus Germany and Sweden, and South Africa) which has ample research & production ready IIR (Imaging Infrared) systems. They also talk of an advanced EW system capable against IR missiles beyond chaff & flares.
He also said that he does know that DARE is working with IAI Israel on a DIRCM (Directional Infrared Counter Measures) against IIR missiles (latest and greatest dogfight missiles), but it was presumed to be for transport aircraft/choppers. The other thing is that DARE has also flight tested a sensor fused MSWS on the Hack which combines LWS, MWS, and RWR (the compact R118) into a single unit. He had spoken to DARE people at AI, and they said it can even include radar inputs and the R118 central unit (which does the sensor fusion) is also intended for the MKI.
This info that he gave was then confirmed to some degree when the DRDO publication for January spoke of development of a new EW system for the LCA, MKI and MiG-29UPG.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Singha » 09 Feb 2010 23:22

mashallah the new SAR radar should be sized and designed to a dorsal/ventral thing on EMB145
and reuse much of the hard work being put in there. this will be our desi Astor.

should be of immense use in discerning real time movements of enemy assets esp highlighted
against the stark tibetan landscape. flying at its max ceiling of 37,000ft the EMB145 should be
able to 'peer' deep into tibet except behind mountains near border.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SaiK » 09 Feb 2010 23:42

this one?
http://www.india-defence.com/reports/2584

Elisra will develop approach warning systems, while DARE will develop cooling systems, electromagnetic interference and electromagnetic susceptibility systems, as well as system integration in the aircraft.

The EW system will feature advanced RADAR warning, RADAR jamming, and electronic combat and self defense systems. It will also have an Integrated Defensive Electronic Radio Frequency Countermeasures system to help protect the aircraft against RADAR guided missiles.

Elisra, notably, has helped DARE in the past to develop an EW system, called 'Tempest' for the MiG 21 Bison fighter upgrade program. EW systems from Elisra are also being supplied for licensed production in India for 140 Sukhoi Su 30 MKI aircraft at the HAL (Hindustan Aeronautics Limited) production center in Bangalore.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby rakall » 10 Feb 2010 09:44

Kartik wrote:
SaiK wrote:may be a ddmite from:-

"http://theasiandefence.blogspot.com/2009/12/drdos-focus-deep-penetration-radars.html a DRDO affiliate - said they were working on developing radars that would capture images penetrating obstacles such as foliage and concrete walls. “These radars are urgently required by our security forces,”

he foliage penetration radar would be operated from an airborne platform and would be able to detect man and manmade objects hidden below foliage.

He said the AESA radars would be fitted with LCA Mark 2 - an upgraded version of the Tejas Light Combat Aircraft - slated to be rolled out in 2014."


No. Its not DDM so don't get them mixed up. The radar that you're referring to is being worked on by LRDE, not DARE. And it was DARE's Director, U K Revankar, who mentioned that the new EW system that was being developed for the Tejas would be tested shortly. This might most likely be the Mayawi EWS.
I am in touch with a very reliable source and he told me something related to this only about a month ago..There is plenty of ECM and other sensor related developments that are happening. I'm quoting him and if he sees this, credit goes to him.
There was an ADA article that he mentioned, where it said something about the "way ahead with lessons learnt from the Tejas program" and it mentioned a JSF style DAS (full 360 degree visibility) and a long range IRST as well. Due to the sensitivity of the issue, the article didn't mention the exact intended use, but its apparently intended for the Tejas MK2 from what he could discern. here, he felt that the cooperation with Israel made total sense as Israel is one of the handful of countries (the others being US and France with Sofradir, plus Germany and Sweden, and South Africa) which has ample research & production ready IIR (Imaging Infrared) systems. They also talk of an advanced EW system capable against IR missiles beyond chaff & flares.
He also said that he does know that DARE is working with IAI Israel on a DIRCM (Directional Infrared Counter Measures) against IIR missiles (latest and greatest dogfight missiles), but it was presumed to be for transport aircraft/choppers. The other thing is that DARE has also flight tested a sensor fused MSWS on the Hack which combines LWS, MWS, and RWR (the compact R118) into a single unit. He had spoken to DARE people at AI, and they said it can even include radar inputs and the R118 central unit (which does the sensor fusion) is also intended for the MKI.
This info that he gave was then confirmed to some degree when the DRDO publication for January spoke of development of a new EW system for the LCA, MKI and MiG-29UPG.


EW system flashback to AI09


DARE is going great guns of EW systems & avionics.

- Mig27 upgrade details we all know. Mig27’s after upgrade have an external SPJ – Tusker pod
- Upgraded Jags have an Israeli external SPJ – integrated by DARE
- Su30 has an external SPJ Russian (there is so much electronics already inside Su30 – it is better to have external SPJ)

But DARE is moving onto to a new integrated system in which they are bringing the RWR and SPJ together. The system is called RWJ – Radar Warner Jammer (Codename not revealed)

They are developing RWJ for Mig27, Mig29 & LCA.
So ultimately LCA will probably have an internal jammer – at least in Mk2 versions. (if there is enough real estate)

They have moved on from 386 processors to 486 processors for all new systems

The new RWR systems called R-118 will be retrofitted on all fighter aircraft except Su30MKI slowly.. May be on newer Su30MKI but probably they will leave Tarang Mk2 on older Su30MKI.

Tarang mk1 RWR – 2-18GHz freq -55dBM signal
Tarang mk2 RWR – 2-18GHz freq -65dBM signal

R-118 system – RWR 1-18GHz freq -65dBM signal + MSWS (Note the RWR freq improvement beyond Tarang Mk2)
MSWS – Multi Sensor Warning System includes MAWS + LWS
The R-118 system combines RWR+MAWS+LWS. Tested extensively on Hack. Will be retrofitted onto most fighter aircraft.

Summary:
- RWR system has matured far beyond Tarang
- DARE developed SPJ was tested against all fighter a/c in IAF inventory and worked well. We are doing very well on RWR & SPJ systems.
- New generation RWJ (internal jammer) is ready to be deployed on Mig27’s. Will also be developed for Mig29 & LCA.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Natt » 10 Feb 2010 10:03

Questions for experts..
There seems to be a ?secondary inlet of some sort just where the tail meets the fuselage on some tejas like KH 2012 while missing in older ones like KH 2002...any idea about what it may be? I have not seen any such thing in other aircrafts.
If you see in the formation picture..the lead the rear two aircraft have it and the middle 2 do not.

http://yfrog.com/htdsc1058lcarampj
http://yfrog.com/i31186470j
http://yfrog.com/11lcadiffj

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Bheem » 10 Feb 2010 10:42

I have got confused with so much info being put by BRF members. Can somebody simplify it for laypersons like me. My understanding from above post is that :-


1. DRDO is developing MAAWS with SAAB. This MAAWS (MWS) is further being developed by integrating with LWS, RWS, and Radar etc of the Platform/LCA.

2. DRDO is developing a EW suite called Mayawi with Israel which has chaff dispenser, DIRCM, Radar Jammer + RWR. (Does point 1 or 2 overlap?)


3. DRDO Is developing IRST and 360* DAS with Israel

4. DRDO is developing MMR with Israel with RFPs of AESA are now out

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kartik » 10 Feb 2010 11:03

Natt wrote:Questions for experts..
There seems to be a ?secondary inlet of some sort just where the tail meets the fuselage on some tejas like KH 2012 while missing in older ones like KH 2002...any idea about what it may be? I have not seen any such thing in other aircrafts.
If you see in the formation picture..the lead the rear two aircraft have it and the middle 2 do not.


it is seen on the Eurofighter Typhoon

if you see a Eurofighter Typhoon cutaway you can see that its an intake, but its not clear as to what exactly its purpose is. It could be a RAM intake to cool onboard computers and avionics.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Feb 2010 12:24

rakall wrote:But DARE is moving onto to a new integrated system in which they are bringing the RWR and SPJ together. The system is called RWJ – Radar Warner Jammer (Codename not revealed)

They are developing RWJ for Mig27, Mig29 & LCA.
So ultimately LCA will probably have an internal jammer – at least in Mk2 versions. (if there is enough real estate)

They have moved on from 386 processors to 486 processors for all new systems

The new RWR systems called R-118 will be retrofitted on all fighter aircraft except Su30MKI slowly.. May be on newer Su30MKI but probably they will leave Tarang Mk2 on older Su30MKI.

Tarang mk1 RWR – 2-18GHz freq -55dBM signal
Tarang mk2 RWR – 2-18GHz freq -65dBM signal

R-118 system – RWR 1-18GHz freq -65dBM signal + MSWS (Note the RWR freq improvement beyond Tarang Mk2)
MSWS – Multi Sensor Warning System includes MAWS + LWS
The R-118 system combines RWR+MAWS+LWS. Tested extensively on Hack. Will be retrofitted onto most fighter aircraft.

Summary:
- RWR system has matured far beyond Tarang
- DARE developed SPJ was tested against all fighter a/c in IAF inventory and worked well. We are doing very well on RWR & SPJ systems.
- New generation RWJ (internal jammer) is ready to be deployed on Mig27’s. Will also be developed for Mig29 & LCA.

Rakall, any idea of any of these will have an emitter location function (ELS) allowing for passive detection and possibly tracking of active emitters? IIRC, the spectra on tehe rafale and the khbiny suite on the SU-35 has a something of this sort, so does the F-18E/F.

Regards,
CM.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 10 Feb 2010 12:36

CM, how is it different from say, the siva pod ?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 10 Feb 2010 12:49

Rahul M wrote:CM, how is it different from say, the siva pod ?


I think the Spectra/khbiny allows for tracking and engaging A2A targets as well. The SIVA iirc, is primarily to guide A2G munitions like the KH-31. Also, the spectra is internal and the Khbiny might be wingtip mounted (not sure) unlike the SIVA.

CM.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Natt » 10 Feb 2010 12:52

Kartik wrote:
Natt wrote:Questions for experts..
There seems to be a ?secondary inlet of some sort just where the tail meets the fuselage on some tejas like KH 2012 while missing in older ones like KH 2002...any idea about what it may be? I have not seen any such thing in other aircrafts.
If you see in the formation picture..the lead the rear two aircraft have it and the middle 2 do not.


it is seen on the Eurofighter Typhoon

if you see a Eurofighter Typhoon cutaway you can see that its an intake, but its not clear as to what exactly its purpose is. It could be a RAM intake to cool onboard computers and avionics.

Right, I see it on the Typhoon. Surely it is an intake of some sort but I would guess that most computers on the aircraft will be near the nose and the cockpit and not so much near the tail and the typhoon cutaway kinda supports that theory. Also it surely wasnt an original design feature on the first 2 manufactured Tejas and was added later, so should I presume that overheating of ?avionics and computers was an identified problem? also was it solved by letting it be air cooled? I mean even Cars are doing better than that.
Could it be a gauge inlet of some sort for air speed, temp..? :?:

tsarkar
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby tsarkar » 10 Feb 2010 15:04

On LCA, its an air duct with simple use of cooling the tailpipe.

Computers & avionics are usually placed amidships and on the spine and not so far back.

Sagar G
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Sagar G » 10 Feb 2010 15:24

Cain Marko wrote:
Rahul M wrote:CM, how is it different from say, the siva pod ?


I think the Spectra/khbiny allows for tracking and engaging A2A targets as well. The SIVA iirc, is primarily to guide A2G munitions like the KH-31. Also, the spectra is internal and the Khbiny might be wingtip mounted (not sure) unlike the SIVA.

CM.


Siva is a HADF system DRDO Techfocus Aug 2006 (4th page)

HADF systems are also used for A2G targeting ????

Austin
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Austin » 10 Feb 2010 16:27

Siva is a HADF system DRDO Techfocus Aug 2006 (4th page)

HADF systems are also used for A2G targeting ????


As long as the A2G target is a Radar why not ?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby neerajb » 10 Feb 2010 16:32

Question to Garus. In "The Tejas Story" the author mentions that though the Tejas DFCC cycles many times a second for control surface corrections but the actuators only move twice a second i.e. every 500 ms. He also mentions that in an unstable aircraft the aircraft will go out of control in a quarter of a second and the humar response time is half second.

Now my question is if the aircraft goes out of control in 250 ms than how come the actuator cycle of 500 ms controls the Tejas?

Cheers....

Shubham
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Shubham » 10 Feb 2010 17:02

neerajb wrote: Now my question is if the aircraft goes out of control in 250 ms than how come the actuator cycle of 500 ms controls the Tejas?


As far as Mechanical Control System goes, it does not really make sense to make correction very quickly, remember that the control system are made up of devices like Motors, actuators. These have their own response time, i.e. if you give a input to motor at t=0 sec , it will take some finite amount of time for the motor to respond and reach the steady state value(position wise or speed wise). So if you give a different input before the motor reached previous steady state value , the effect of previous input does not take place.

So usually the update for mechanical control system even in bodies moving with very high speed like Missiles takes place at less than 10Hz.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby rakall » 10 Feb 2010 17:48

Rahul M wrote:CM, how is it different from say, the siva pod ?



CM -- that is what I was about to reply..

Siva pod as a HADF pod is integrated to the onboard computer and the onboard display shows the locations & classification of any emitter - airbased or ground based. It has definitely been trialled extensively on Su30MKI. Mig27 i am not sure.. possibility is there.

But looks like the DARE developed external SPJ has been trialled extensively on MKI & Mig27.. IAF threw all possible options at it.. and apparently the system performed better than any other unit in IAF service..

gnair
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby gnair » 10 Feb 2010 20:27

Questions for experts..
There seems to be a ?secondary inlet of some sort just where the tail meets the fuselage on some tejas like KH 2012 while missing in older ones like KH 2002...any idea about what it may be? I have not seen any such thing in other aircrafts.
If you see in the formation picture..the lead the rear two aircraft have it and the middle 2 do not.
_______________________________________________________________________________
That inlet is actually called an Air Scoup. And it's used to either cool avionics or in pheumatics, where the air is pressurised for some purpose or the other. I suspect, in this case, it's used to cool all engine auxilaries, including the FADEC box.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kartik » 11 Feb 2010 00:13

Natt wrote:Right, I see it on the Typhoon. Surely it is an intake of some sort but I would guess that most computers on the aircraft will be near the nose and the cockpit and not so much near the tail and the typhoon cutaway kinda supports that theory.


I don't make statements without some basis. Its not necessary that the computer has to be near the radome or cockpit. On the Gripen, the flight control computer is located right at the base of the fin as are the air data instruments that feed data to the FCS. On the Tejas, I'm not sure, it could be right behind the pilot or it could be elsewhere. And the cutout isn't clear on the Typhoon, so one can't say for sure whether any other avionics are placed behind the ram-air scoop. BTW, even on aircraft as far back as the F-105 Thunderchief, Ram-air intakes were used.

The differences from the YF-105A were many; a larger tailfin with an air intake in the root and forward swept engine air inlets in the wing roots. The ram-air intake in the tail fin root provided cooling for the MA-8 firing control system, E-34 radar ranging gunsight and the E-30 bombing computer, all of which hadn't been present in the F-105A.


F-105


Also it surely wasnt an original design feature on the first 2 manufactured Tejas and was added later, so should I presume that overheating of ?avionics and computers was an identified problem? also was it solved by letting it be air cooled? I mean even Cars are doing better than that.Could it be a gauge inlet of some sort for air speed, temp..?


Don't make statements on cars using better technology than aircraft..tell me which production car in India uses carbon-carbon brakes ? or carbon fiber composites with co-cured and co-bonded frames with panels? which car comes with ejection seats, canopy severance systems or uses a Flight Control System with more than half a million lines of code that took 100 man years to write, verify and validate ?

such a comparison is between apples and oranges- they have different design constraints that dictate the solution. its a good solution if you can put in a ram-air scoop, because aircraft are not cars and vice versa. with a ram-air scoop, you don't need to have a coolant system, with its associated weight- simply draw in air which is always at much lower temperatures at higher altitudes (well below zero) and you can cool down several avionics systems that way. That is, if you don't have enough air to bleed it directly from the air-intake channel itself.

Did you even know that one of the biggest issues with AESA radars is that it produces so much heat that it requires a nitrogen cooling system that consumes power, weight and requires space, and all three factors are at a premium on fighters ? As for the first 2 Tejas not featuring the ram-air scoop, they were Technology Demonstrators. Maybe some avionics were added later to the Production Vehicles (PV) that required cooling and instead of using engine-bleed air as it may lead to a bit of air-starvation for the engine, they added a ram-air scoop.


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