LCA news and discussion

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nikhil_p
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby nikhil_p » 18 Apr 2010 03:03

Chaiwala to paanwala information alert******

The MMR is being tested on the HAL flight test a/c Avro. There is an integration issue with the current radar system, where it is overheating and performance in affected if it is in active mode for a long time. Cooling systems in the already tight confines of the current nose is difficult(weight being another consideration).
They will initially certify only for A2A mode and later during FOC the multi mode system will be cleared...

Flight envelope is almost entirely opened.

Mark2 design is in the CAD stage...(three inital designs are being looked into!)...


Note: Strictly C2P info, do not speculate till actual data is opensourced!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby PratikDas » 18 Apr 2010 03:07

nikhil_p wrote:Chaiwala to paanwala information alert******
...
Note: Strictly C2P info, do not speculate till actual data is opensourced!

Thank you for the delivery service. Much appreciated.

Does the A2A mode consume less power / generate less heat? Could some expert please comment?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby karan_mc » 18 Apr 2010 07:54

i think components for A2G will not be integrated to make it less bulky and to avoid heat generation

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 18 Apr 2010 08:46

The idea should be to get the birds inducted even if all A2G modes are not in place. This has been done before in professional AFs such as the Adla. At a time when the Tejas already has some A2G capability via the Litening, a decent A2A fighter should be a great bonus. Million $ question is:

What BVR weapon has been integrated with the LCA? I think they are waiting for the Astra, I'd rather like to see an Adder integrated ASAP. Of course the Astra, when it arrives, will be great i am sure.

CM.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Gagan » 18 Apr 2010 10:00

Err,
which is superior? EL/M 2052 AESA
or
MMR?

If the 2052 AESA is superior, why will the forces wait for the MMR hain?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Gagan » 18 Apr 2010 10:05

Viv S wrote:According to Vayu Mag, the Dabolim trials last year were the last leg in achieving the designated flight envelope for IOC.

http://img706.imageshack.us/i/21122009082.jpg/


Viv S, what are those BENIS flowcharts you've uploaded on imageshack related to? :)

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Carl_T » 18 Apr 2010 10:12

Gagan wrote:Err,
which is superior? EL/M 2052 AESA
or
MMR?

If the 2052 AESA is superior, why will the forces wait for the MMR hain?

I would like to know too.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Cain Marko » 18 Apr 2010 10:27

Gagan wrote:Err,
which is superior? EL/M 2052 AESA
or
MMR?

If the 2052 AESA is superior, why will the forces wait for the MMR hain?


Is the EL-2052 even ready as yet? Plus integrating an AESA was supposedly for the Mk2 version? The cooling requirement is supposedly quite the challenge...and it looks like they have their hands full with overheating already.

CM.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Austin » 18 Apr 2010 15:41

Just some nagging question bothering me

If Tejas Mk2 is getting delayed and assuming from recent reports FOC is expected in 2018

1 ) Why is the IAF not ordering Tejas Mk1 in far more numbers beyond 2 squadron , they can easily order 5 squadron , keep the production line busy till the definative mk2 takes over ?

2 ) What is the IAF opposition and views on ordering just 2 squadron of tejas mk1and not more ?

3 ) What is DRDO view on this matter and GOI ( MOD ) views on this ?

Thanks

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 18 Apr 2010 16:14

Yes. MK1 should be quite good for A2A role. Can be used hard for point defence role. By keeping the production line open the numbers will be filled up whih is needed as our numbers are bad as of now and needs some urgent air frames. As for as the opposition goes most of them are Mig21 variounts and some useless panda junk. If there is any treat from F16's of Pak or Su27's of Chipanda other birds of India can take over.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Pratik_S » 18 Apr 2010 16:43

*Din't DM Antony say a few months back that the first squadron of the LCA will be inducted in the IAF by March 2011?? Why is everyone over here saying that its not gonna happen??
*I personally don't expect the LCA to become the backbone of the IAF because looking at the way IAF is idolizing the Su-30MKI and ordering them there is just no way the LCA is going to become the backbone of IAF. I don't even think the LCA would be ordered close to 280. But this is not bad because a order of 200 will be good enough.
*Squadron strength of 40 will be achieved by 2020 with 280(MKI's), 100(MiG-29s and M2000), 126(MRCA), 200(LCA), 50*(PAKFA).
*Any news on Mayavi EWS ???

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Apr 2010 17:00

but without a radar and missile tests at this point, the MK1 is qualified only for A2G as a 'better Mig27/jaguar'.

we desperate need that elta-yindu radar working in A2A modes and missile trials to commence
to qualify atleast Derby and R73 as the initial weapons , since Astra looks years away from FOC.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Apr 2010 19:39

Any chance of IAF buying Python 5s like Navy? Would be nice to see them in IAF specially on Tejas.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Singha » 18 Apr 2010 20:45

we do not have any domestic IR aam project. but IAF will likely eval python5 only when
its ample stocks of R73 reach near end of shelf-life.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 18 Apr 2010 20:56

^^^
viewtopic.php?p=839671#p839671

Manish_Sharma wrote:Any chance of IAF buying Python 5s like Navy? Would be nice to see them in IAF specially on Tejas.

when did that happen ? :eek: they have only bought derby so far AFA public info goes.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Viv S » 18 Apr 2010 21:03

Gagan wrote:
Viv S wrote:According to Vayu Mag, the Dabolim trials last year were the last leg in achieving the designated flight envelope for IOC.

http://img706.imageshack.us/i/21122009082.jpg/


Viv S, what are those BENIS flowcharts you've uploaded on imageshack related to? :)


Its a pic from Vayu Magazine. It was posted on this thread a while ago. I'm just reposting it. Also there was another source that said the flight envelope for the IOC had been achieved. I'll see if I can dig it up.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Austin » 18 Apr 2010 21:14

Rahul M wrote:^^^
viewtopic.php?p=839671#p839671

Manish_Sharma wrote:Any chance of IAF buying Python 5s like Navy? Would be nice to see them in IAF specially on Tejas.

when did that happen ? :eek: they have only bought derby so far AFA public info goes.


The IAF Mirage folks were using Python 4 which was not widely known , i think it would be logical for them to move to Python 5

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 18 Apr 2010 21:32

I agree it would be logical but is it confirmed ? he is talking of IN btw. do you have a link for the mirage business ? I wasn't aware of it.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Apr 2010 22:08

:oops: It's true Rahul, I can only find Indian Navy buying Derby and projected my unconcious desire of acquiring Python 5s!

But would be nice to know if what Austin is saying about Mirage is true and Kartik's guess about induction of Python 5 due to india manufacturing its seeker. :)

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Apr 2010 22:25

http://defense-update.com/news/india-missiles.htm
This is the first link Googleswara mahraj threw up on search "python 4 on indian mirage".

Found another link mentioning it but not confirming:
http://defense-update.com/newscast/0209/130209rafael_in_india_01.html
Since Spyder-SR uses standard air/air missiles (Python 5 and Derby) launched from a ground mobile launcher, fielding the missiles in India opens attractive opportunities for Rafael's air/air weaponry with other services as well. While Derby is already fielded with the Indian Navy Sea Harriers, and is considered to equip the LCA, Python 5 missiles are considered as part of the Mirage 2000 upgrade and for future upgrades of the Jaguar attack aircraft. Rafael's missiles are addressing all the Indian mandatory requirements and are considered part of the weapons packages preferred by the Indians submitted by most of the contenders for the Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA).

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby merlin » 19 Apr 2010 13:01

Viv S wrote:
merlin wrote:Who said flight testing is over?

The flight envelope has not been fully opened up yet, the last I heard.


According to Vayu Mag, the Dabolim trials last year were the last leg in achieving the designated flight envelope for IOC.

http://img706.imageshack.us/i/21122009082.jpg/


Thanks. I had missed that.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sunnyv » 19 Apr 2010 14:00

The IAF Mirage folks were using Python 4 which was not widely known , i think it would be logical for them to move to Python 5


ASRAAM TO BE IN SERVICE IN IAF

source- http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairw ... 00218.aspx
The Magic Is Gone

February 18, 2010: India plans to replace its Magic heat-seeking air-to-air missiles with the Asraam missile. Magic is a French developed, 89 kg (196 pound) missile with a max range of 11 kilometers. It was introduced in 1975, and underwent a major upgrade in the late 1980s. But Magic is considered past its prime.

Asraam entered service in 2002, mainly developed by Britain. It is an 88 kg (194 pound) missile with a range of 18 kilometers and a high capability heat seeker sensor system. The Asraam would replace Magic missiles now carried by a hundred Jaguar and fifty Mirage 2000 jet fighters.

To get the deal, Asraam manufacturer MBDA agreed to jointly develop, with India, a new generation air-to-air heat seeking missile.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby shiv » 19 Apr 2010 14:08

Wouldn't the best time to validate an A2A radar be when the plane is in service, flying with other fighters?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Philip » 19 Apr 2010 14:41

It seems like it was three air shows ago when I half-jokingly espoused on the Forum to Shiv that the best replaceemnt for the MIG-21 would be ...the MIG-21! In a new avatar of course,the MIG-21 Bison.This was because the LCA seemed to be nowhere on the horizon as far as induction was concerned.Three air shows later it all seems to be dejas vu.I remember a few years ago ,during a heated debate,some of us espoused the idea that what the MOD needed to do was to just get the aircraft flyigng and equip it with whatever radar was available-that could fit from the MIG-21,Jaguar,whatever,so that the first tranche culd be inducted at the earliest.Let's hope that the first lot to be stationed at Sulur arrives on time,because if even that date fails,then our worst fears about the project might come true.The decision on the new engine too is a matter of the highest priority.It should be taken independent of the MMRCA deal,which appears to be one reason why there is such inordinate delay for the same.Jaguar upgrades with either Raytheon's engine or a more advanced Adour is another long pending decision.The LCA has to succeed so that at least 100-120 aircraft can be produced within as short a time s possible to keep the aircraft contemporary.It is a very intersting fact leafing through a two yr. old issue of a def. mag that the US had ordered about 55% UCAVs out of the total aircraft ordered that year! This indicates the massive revolution that unmanned aircraft are playing right now and the increasing role that they will in the future.The US has also established an academy for UCAV "pilots",who will specialise in operating UCAVs! We are still in the manned aircraft mentality while around us the RMA in air warfare accelerates.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Manish_Sharma » 19 Apr 2010 15:05

Americans thought even in 60s that guns were obsolete on fighters only to realise later it was not so. Even now there 5th generation f22 is sporting M61A2 20-mm Gun.

I don't think that whole manned jetfighter is going to be obsolete any soon.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Austin » 19 Apr 2010 15:29



Strategypage is not a reliable source but ASRAAM is a good missile

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby rakall » 19 Apr 2010 16:39

sunnyv wrote:
The IAF Mirage folks were using Python 4 which was not widely known , i think it would be logical for them to move to Python 5


ASRAAM TO BE IN SERVICE IN IAF

source- http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htairw ... 00218.aspx
The Magic Is Gone

February 18, 2010: India plans to replace its Magic heat-seeking air-to-air missiles with the Asraam missile. Magic is a French developed, 89 kg (196 pound) missile with a max range of 11 kilometers. It was introduced in 1975, and underwent a major upgrade in the late 1980s. But Magic is considered past its prime.

Asraam entered service in 2002, mainly developed by Britain. It is an 88 kg (194 pound) missile with a range of 18 kilometers and a high capability heat seeker sensor system. The Asraam would replace Magic missiles now carried by a hundred Jaguar and fifty Mirage 2000 jet fighters.

.


And dont exclude the possibility of Hawk trainer being equipped with the same !!!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby negi » 19 Apr 2010 19:42

To be fair if open source and internet sources are to go by this ASRAAM looks like some 'faltoo' missile , leave alone Python-5 there are reports of it coming second in trails against the AIM-9X . Looks more of a package deal alongside the M2K upgrade than anything else , and yeah the missile seeker is from Hughes (now owned by Raytheon) .

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Singha » 19 Apr 2010 20:01

if only jaguars and mirages will use it, then its more of a self-defence missile for
strike ac who will launch and turn away rather than seek a sustained fight. that way any of aim9x/iris-t/p5/asraam would do - preference given to whoever costs less and gets the job done.

will be interesting to see which WVR aam is used on Tejas and Su30mki only the long in tooth R73 is retired. my guess would be the K-74-2 which is said to be entirely new missile under development or python5.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby bhavik » 19 Apr 2010 20:14

Am I reading correctly ???
the article says 6 squadrons on LCA ordered instead of 2.


The first LCA prototype flew in 2000 but there are still major glitches with its engine which are in the process of being ironed out.
Even so, the IAF is known to be not entirely happy with the aircraft, which is why is had ordered a mere six squadrons.


http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/Indian-Air-Force-phasing-out-MiG-21s-Antony/articleshow/5831485.cms

Hurray at last?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sourab_c » 19 Apr 2010 20:30

bhavik wrote:Am I reading correctly ???
the article says 6 squadrons on LCA ordered instead of 2.
Hurray at last?



Most likely DDM... No official word on ordering 6 squadrons..

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kartik » 19 Apr 2010 20:41

Manish_Sharma wrote:Any chance of IAF buying Python 5s like Navy? Would be nice to see them in IAF specially on Tejas.


Its not confirmed that the IN operates Python 5s either. They have ordered Derby's for their SHar's and have asked for the Derby for the N-LCA as well. and will be using the existing stocks of Russian missiles for their MiG-29Ks, I presume.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Carl_T » 19 Apr 2010 20:42

The article mentions some "glitches" with the engine, can anyone clarify? I had thought that either the 414 or the EJ2000 was going to be fitted onto the Mk 2.

Also, is the Elta 2052 radar offered to the LCA?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kartik » 19 Apr 2010 20:43

Manish_Sharma wrote::oops: It's true Rahul, I can only find Indian Navy buying Derby and projected my unconcious desire of acquiring Python 5s!

But would be nice to know if what Austin is saying about Mirage is true and Kartik's guess about induction of Python 5 due to india manufacturing its seeker. :)


My bad..I forgot totally about that article from AW&ST..it did state that it was going to be for offsets, if I recall correctly..they were going to be manufacturing Python IIR seekers in India as part of offsets for the Spyder SAM deal.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby negi » 19 Apr 2010 20:46

^ Thanks Kartik , this makes sense .

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby khukri » 19 Apr 2010 20:53

negi wrote:To be fair if open source and internet sources are to go by this ASRAAM looks like some 'faltoo' missile , leave alone Python-5 there are reports of it coming second in trails against the AIM-9X . Looks more of a package deal alongside the M2K upgrade than anything else , and yeah the missile seeker is from Hughes (now owned by Raytheon) .


Not quite - here's what seems to be a reasoned evaluation (AIM9X vs ASRAAM vs R73 ):

It all depends what you want, all these designs are roughly equal technically but represent fairly different approaches to the same problems. A quick and dirty comparison; As far as range goes, the R-73 easily runs off with the prize with an *effective* reach of 40km in it's latest versions, the ASRAAM is next at 22km and the Sidewinder X around 16.

When it comes to initial agility, the AIM-9X can hit an astounding 80G and be launched as much as 180 degrees off-boresite, compared to around 50G and 60 degrees for the other weapons. However the AIM-9X uses the same motor as the 1970s 'L' model and it's agility drops off rapidly as it is relatively underpowered. The other two weapons would be more capable at distance.

Greatest lethality probably goes to the ASRAAM, which actually punches beneath an aircraft's skin before exploding inside, if that weren't enough it is also able to actually target the enemy's cockpit through the capabilities conveyed by it's advanced high resolution IIR seeker. The AIM-9X has the same seeker and the same pilot-kill ability but it is hobbled by it's anemic 1970s warhead design. The R-73 has a *very* effective warhead that will kill anything flying but it's IR seeker is a generation behind the other missles so I'd say it's a tie for second place.

If it were up to me I'd have a tough time choosing between them.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kartik » 19 Apr 2010 20:58

negi wrote:To be fair if open source and internet sources are to go by this ASRAAM looks like some 'faltoo' missile , leave alone Python-5 there are reports of it coming second in trails against the AIM-9X . Looks more of a package deal alongside the M2K upgrade than anything else , and yeah the missile seeker is from Hughes (now owned by Raytheon) .


you could take that discussion up in the Missiles section ? Its not a faltoo missile, not by a long shot. Its got a motor diameter larger than most other IR missiles and consequently it allows for near BVR engagements with an IR missile. Its not one of those ultra-maneuverable up-close dogfight missiles like the IRIS-T, A-Darter (don't know how good it really is) or the Python-5, but its range makes up for that.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kartik » 19 Apr 2010 21:00

Carl_T wrote:The article mentions some "glitches" with the engine, can anyone clarify? I had thought that either the 414 or the EJ2000 was going to be fitted onto the Mk 2.

Also, is the Elta 2052 radar offered to the LCA?


the glitches are in that journo's head. Unfortunately no panacea for such tripe. If there were glitches then what on earth are so many prototypes flying on ? gobar chullahs ?

The problem is that journos don't understand technology (or at least most don't, the Hindu is a lone exception as a newspaper generally) and state generalities which are then taken by most of us as the gospel truth.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Katare » 19 Apr 2010 21:24

We should be getting good news on LCA IOC anyday now?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby suryag » 19 Apr 2010 22:31

Katare ji, why do you want to cause additional heartburn for jingos like me, whenever there is reports of chaiwala/panwala anticipation increases and the hope then dies a painful death. I am eagerly waiting for some news on tejas but it seems to take forever and to rub salt, nowadays the ada website is not updated very regularly :(


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