LCA news and discussion

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Apr 2010 22:27

K Mehta wrote: So my chaiwala was right, the guys are getting desperate to get to the finish line!

yes K Mehta saab ! your chaiwala was on the dot !

now we should ask Ananth to join BRF. He has been producing some singularly good reports on HAL related activities like LCH, LCA and Sitara..can someone just ask him to confirm what the radar on the Tejas is ? Indo-Israeli hybrid, pure Israeli ? Mech scanned or AESA ?

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Apr 2010 22:41

Raja Bose wrote:
Rahul M wrote:isn't that WingCo G Thomas who was CO of No20 sqdn that went to red flag ?
IIRC it was Ajay Rathore who headed the Red Flag team. I may be mistaken (due to old age etc.)

we are both correct.

WingCo Thomas was CO No. 20 Sqdn, Gp Capt Rathore was overall in-charge of the exercises.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Apr 2010 22:42

Singha wrote:having just one a/c up with radar is not too good. given the HW is basically 'set' now, why not refit another of the LSP with
radar. SW updates and fixes can be burned into both as needed.

that will happen in due time. They will ground one or two of the other prototypes, modify them with the new equipment, radar, computers, what not and then have them join in the test program for radar/weapons certification.

Bharadwaj · Post by **Bharadwaj** » 23 Apr 2010 22:44

Rahul M wrote: we are both correct. WingCo Thomas was CO No. 20 Sqdn, Gp Capt Rathore was overall in-charge of the exercises.

I remember reading something about Group Capt Choudury being in overall charge

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 23 Apr 2010 23:07

Bharadwaj wrote:
Rahul M wrote: we are both correct. WingCo Thomas was CO No. 20 Sqdn, Gp Capt Rathore was overall in-charge of the exercises.
I remember reading something about Group Capt Choudury being in overall charge

IAF to depart on 7th July to US for Red Flag Exercises

...
The contingent is being led by Gp Capt D Chaudhury and Exercise Coordinator would be Gp Capt Ajay Rathore.
...

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 23 Apr 2010 23:38

Lungi dance followed by hawai Ak, RPG phyrr.

Sagar G · Post by **Sagar G** » 23 Apr 2010 23:48

Ahhhh at last LSP 3 is in air

Impatiently waiting for IOC now

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 23 Apr 2010 23:52

amazing 3 view diagrams of each of the LCA variants..posted on Keypubs by a Chinese poster by the name of Deino..looking at it the twin seater and the LCA-Navy really stand out as the best lookers. But I would hope that for the N-LCA, they actually increase the canopy size aft of the pilot's seat like on the MiG-29K.

link

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 23 Apr 2010 23:53

Tejas LSP-3 First Flight Successful

Program Director (Combat Aircraft) and ADA Director P.S. Subramanyam, who spoke to Aviation Week soon after the flight, said it was a significant milestone in the LCA program. “We are nearing the goal. All standard operating procedures for IOC are being achieved. We are now left with flight testing and demonstration of sensors and weapon performance. I owe this to my team and all partners of the project. We are confident of flying the LSP-4 in a month and LSP-5 couple of weeks after that,” Subramanyam said.

hariks · Post by **hariks** » 23 Apr 2010 23:53

Excellent news! Great work Tejas team!
Next challenge would be to put in an Indian AESA. May be for Mk2 with the new engine as well.
Looks like IOC is pretty much in sight.

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 24 Apr 2010 00:05

There were reports that the LCA has covered the full flight envelope. I wonder what was the max altitude and max g pulled. Did they limit to the designed values(15km, 9g) or did they try something more?

Has LCA flown with the MTOW too? Wonder what all weapons were loaded when LCA took off at MTOW

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Apr 2010 00:44

Kakarat wrote:Tejas LSP-3 First Flight Successful

Program Director (Combat Aircraft) and ADA Director P.S. Subramanyam, who spoke to Aviation Week soon after the flight, said it was a significant milestone in the LCA program. “We are nearing the goal. All standard operating procedures for IOC are being achieved. We are now left with flight testing and demonstration of sensors and weapon performance. I owe this to my team and all partners of the project. We are confident of flying the LSP-4 in a month and LSP-5 couple of weeks after that,” Subramanyam said.

This is Lungi dance time for me too

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 24 Apr 2010 00:45

Will LSP -4 and 5 incorporate any additional changes or they will be the same as LSP - 3 now

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 24 Apr 2010 00:48

So how long would Radar test take before the BVR missile is fired? Just trying aam admi guess here:
1. Air to Air modes against all kinds of planes in IAF inventory on different heights. Maybe they will test against Gripen NG also

2. Air to Ground mode from different heights in mountains, planes, stationery and moving targets.
3. Air to Ship mode.
4. And then

BVR missile integration, lets' say in 3 months?
Just couldn't go to sleep, so had to write some questions.

Jagan · Post by **Jagan** » 24 Apr 2010 04:10

Some trainer pics from the chase sorti

All above take off pics

Landing

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Apr 2010 04:28

Thanks Jagan ! its always great to see any new LCA pics and the PV-5 variant especially !:D

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 24 Apr 2010 05:19

why is the trainer carrying a missile

Craig Alpert · Post by **Craig Alpert** » 24 Apr 2010 05:32

Looks like the 2nd pilot visibility would be restricted... I would hope, that they would incorporate the 2nd pilots FOV and cockpit design by learning something from the SU-30 MKI, The canopy should be curvavious like Rambhas!! They'll learn with experience! (or atleast one can hope!)

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 24 Apr 2010 06:06

Nihat wrote:Will LSP -4 and 5 incorporate any additional changes or they will be the same as LSP - 3 now

Currently, 8 LSP series aircraft are on order.

* LSP-1 (KH2011) - 25 April 2007
* LSP-2 (KH2012) - 16 June 2008 This is the first LCA fitted with GE-404 IN20 engine.
* LSP-3 Will be the first aircraft to have the MMR and will be close to the IOC standard.
* LSP-4 Planned Flight in Mid-2009 for CMDS Trails
* LSP-5 IOC standard with all sensors including MMR and HMDS ,Radio aid will be used for Weapons Testing
* LSP-6 will be used to increase the AOA
* LSP-7/8 will be given for user trials

http://www.lca-tejas.org/variants.html

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Apr 2010 07:17

Craig Alpert wrote:Looks like the 2nd pilot visibility would be restricted... I would hope, that they would incorporate the 2nd pilots FOV and cockpit design by learning something from the SU-30 MKI, The canopy should be curvavious like Rambhas!! They'll learn with experience! (or atleast one can hope!)

With respect Craig Alpert, your statement makes one assumption and the second half of your statement makes recommendations on the basis that the assumption you have made is correct

You seem to say "Since the following seems to be the case (to me, having seen it in a dozen 2D photographs of the LCA trainer)":

Looks like the 2nd pilot visibility would be restricted...

I hope for the following solutions :

I would hope, that they would incorporate the 2nd pilots FOV and cockpit design by learning something from the SU-30 MKI, The canopy should be curvavious like Rambhas!! They'll learn with experience! (or atleast one can hope!)

..but suppose the visibility is not as bad as you think? After all the designers have been working with test pilots on the design. No?

Ajay K · Post by **Ajay K** » 24 Apr 2010 08:13

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 766261.JPG

Folks, not sure if its a timing issue but the front undercarriage doors close pretty late into the take off compared to the rear one. Looks and makes it look ugly during take off.

Indranil · Post by **Indranil** » 24 Apr 2010 08:21

Ajay K wrote:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 766261.JPG

Folks, not sure if its a timing issue but the front undercarriage doors close pretty late into the take off compared to the rear one. Looks and makes it look ugly during take off.

how can the front undercarriage door close before, the front wheel has completely withdrawn? Also the back undercarriage door is also open in this pic!

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 24 Apr 2010 08:32

Ajay K wrote:http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_o_no4M2xEPY/S ... 766261.JPG

Folks, not sure if its a timing issue but the front undercarriage doors close pretty late into the take off compared to the rear one. Looks and makes it look ugly during take off.

any particular disadvantage that you can think of due to the above stated statement ?

First of all its not late. It works in unison with the main landing gear doors. As long as the nose gear can be pulled in by the time the aircraft attains the air speed at which the landing gear cannot be retracted, its fine. Aircraft have a max speed above which landing gear should not be in the open position or they cannot be retracted. As for the part about making it look ugly, thats not important at all. Its not a beauty contest to see how fast one can retract the landing gear and close the nose landing gear door.

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 24 Apr 2010 09:07

Kartik wrote: any particular disadvantage that you can think of due to the above stated statement ? .

Can't you read? It looks ugly. In addition to being delayed by decades the LCA looks ugly for 2 seconds while that door closes. So there..

Pratik_S · Post by **Pratik_S** » 24 Apr 2010 09:15

LCA radar is a AESA
http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/201 ... -aesa.html

I don't have much information as of now but it sure is a AESA.

nachiket · Post by **nachiket** » 24 Apr 2010 09:32

smpratik wrote:LCA radar is a AESA
http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/201 ... -aesa.html

I don't have much information as of now but it sure is a AESA.

If they actually do manage this on the Mk1, that would mean that the Mk2 testing time would be drastically reduced. One reason why I was not doing a lungi dance after the LSP3 flight was that as of what we know now, only 40 Mk1 aircraft will ever be produced. The bulk of the LCA order would be the Mk2 which would have to be tested just as rigorously as the Mk1 has been because of the new engine(with airframe modifications?) and radar. If they have actually managed to equip the AESA radar on the Mk1 itself (we still have only blog reports of this), it would mean that the FOC date for the Mk2 which is more important from the IAF's POV can be advanced from the December 2018 being quoted previously.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Apr 2010 09:34

TOI print edition says today that it also features an auto-pilot and new FCS version in addition to the data points below from DNAIndia. WingCo Thomas said now they have to test the data streams from these new eqpt.

Light combat aircraft flies with near-full gear
Team DNA
Friday, April 23, 2010 19:57 IST
Last updated: Saturday, April 24, 2010 0:31 IST

Bangalore: Light combat aircraft (LCA) Tejas took a significant step towards induction into the Indian Air Force on Friday afternoon.

The third Tejas aircraft in the limited series production (LSP)-3 took to the skies carrying almost the complete and final configuration in terms of equipment fit, making it the first flight of a near-complete LCA.

The equipment included new air-data computers, multi-mode radar (MMR), new communication and navigation apparatus and a radar warning receiver.

The aircraft took off from the HAL airport in Bangalore and all objectives of the flight were met within 52 minutes, the Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA) said. ADA is the designer and developer of Tejas.

This is the first time that a Tejas aircraft in the LSP line-up carried the MMR.

“This is the culmination of the efforts of the Tejas team comprising members from HAL, IAF, the centre for military airworthiness and certification, directorate general of air quality assurance, the various DRDO labs and public sector undertakings,” ADA director PS Subramanyam said.

ADA scientists said with the successful Friday flight of LSP-3, Tejas was very close to initial operations clearance, which is to be completed by December 2010.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 24 Apr 2010 09:45

Carl_T wrote:why is the trainer carrying a missile

why should it not ? it's fully combat capable.

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 24 Apr 2010 09:54

Ohh, I was thinking this trainer was the one following the LSP-3 flight.

Sid · Post by **Sid** » 24 Apr 2010 09:56

smpratik wrote:LCA radar is a AESA
http://angle-of-attack.blogspot.com/201 ... -aesa.html

I don't have much information as of now but it sure is a AESA.

AoA, best speculation if its true. Seems credible since LSP3 took too long then expected.

If AESA is confirmed then daaru party and hawai phyrr will follow...lol

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Apr 2010 10:04

Carl_T wrote:why is the trainer carrying a missile

To shoot down the LSP-3 if it does some mischief

Like the teacher walking around with a cane when the kids do PT Display

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Apr 2010 10:07

The MMR carried can't be AESA.

We don't have a flight ready AESA. If we had, it would have been qualified on the Hack many times, and we would have known about it.

Israel don't have an AESA unit for the 2032. What they have is the 2052, and it is clear from various sources that the engine used on the LCA right now is 2032.

The reports imply that the antenna system is from the MMR, so it is the mechanically scanned planar array onlee. Case closed. Stop the dance and put the lungies down.

sum · Post by **sum** » 24 Apr 2010 10:22

The reports imply that the antenna system is from the MMR, so it is the mechanically scanned planar array onlee. Case closed. Stop the dance and put the lungies down.

Anujan · Post by **Anujan** » 24 Apr 2010 10:30

If the antenna is from LRDE, it is *not* AESA. Because in one of the displays it had a "Exciter unit" -- so it is probably a slotted array.

OTOH, there is a possibility that LCA RADAR *might* be AESA - If we had bought the entire thing from Elta and due to difficulties abandoned the 2032/LRDE Jugaad.

Singha · Post by **Singha** » 24 Apr 2010 11:01

wrt to the complaint about the trainer a/c - the Tejas does not have the droopy nose of the Su27 family, hence this is the
best possible. looking at a F-15E pic, the rear seat is actually *lower* than the front seat in a sort of dugout.
http://www.airforceworld.com/fighter/gf ... egbu15.jpg

the F-15D is the trainer model and its the same
http://www.air-and-space.com/lukeafb/841217el.jpg
http://www.abpic.co.uk/images/images/1169145F.jpg

and here is the eurofighter trainer lest anyone complain that things have changed
http://www.military-aircraft.org.uk/tra ... rainer.jpg

the Mig29U has the famous periscope stolen from kilo class to aid the back seater, so did the Mig31.
http://www.military.cz/russia/air/mig/M ... g29u_1.jpg

the su27's droopy nose and great fwd visibility for the WSO has 'spoilt' people.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 24 Apr 2010 11:05

Anujan wrote:If the antenna is from LRDE, it is *not* AESA. Because in one of the displays it had a "Exciter unit" -- so it is probably a slotted array.

OTOH, there is a possibility that LCA RADAR *might* be AESA - If we had bought the entire thing from Elta and due to difficulties abandoned the 2032/LRDE Jugaad.

I have to admit, it is tempting to think that the 2052 has found its way to the LCA. There have been rumblings but there has been much stronger evidence to suggest that the MMR is indeed a mech. Anyways a range of 100km for a 2sqm target is not typically indicative of an AESA.

CM

sunnyv · Post by **sunnyv** » 24 Apr 2010 11:21

Even if they do manage to get AESA
Considering the small nose of Tejas , we cant expect to get a great performance from RADAR.
My guess is at max 700 TR module.

Cain Marko · Post by **Cain Marko** » 24 Apr 2010 11:36

sunnyv wrote:Even if they do manage to get AESA
Considering the small nose of Tejas , we cant expect to get a great performance from RADAR.
My guess is at max 700 TR module.

LCA nose and small? You may say the aircraft is small, the inlets look small, the engine is small- but nose? That there radome is straight away Mirage-2000 - MiG-29 class -HUGE for a bird as small as the LCA. The MMR antenna is about 650mm - equal to the Zhuk and RDY, bigger than an F-16 Apg68.

CM.

Dileep · Post by **Dileep** » 24 Apr 2010 11:54

I am not really particular about AESA for LCA at this stage. Any darn radar that can detect a paki F-16 before he detects us, and manages a BVR shot would do. Let us get IOC and put the birds to work first.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 24 Apr 2010 12:00

I likewise promise (like the good Adm.Koshy and his promise of tons of mithai when the Akula-2/3 arrives),not to do a "lungi" or "sarong" dance,but to "streak" in public when the MK-2 also attains IOC.If it does arrive as planned 2018 we are told by some(?),there will be no danger of my getting arrested due to advanced age!

The news is inded good and reassures us that at least the first sqd. to be based at Sulur is proceeding according to schedule.The experience gained from the first sqd. will be invaluable for future upgrades.Let's hope that a swift decision before the year end at the very latest,is taken for the new engine for the MK-2 version.