LCA news and discussion

saptarishi · Post by **saptarishi** » 16 Oct 2009 21:31

CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT RADAR the first 40 LCA MARK 1 WILL HAVE? will it be el/m-2032 or mmr with el/m-2052 aesa front end

sharma.abhinav · Post by **sharma.abhinav** » 16 Oct 2009 21:45

CAN SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT RADAR the first 40 LCA MARK 1 WILL HAVE? will it be el/m-2032 or mmr with el/m-2052 aesa front end

I can't say for sure, but I guess it would be a hybrid radar with air to air modes of mmr while air to ground modes of elta's 2032 radar. So it would be hybrid between our mmr and 2032. If you would be following this thread for some years, you would know that mmr's air to air modes are working well. I hope that helps

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 17 Oct 2009 03:57

Srivastav wrote: On a different note i dont think ive yet seen a LCA pic with litening pod. Now that would be an awesome sight for a jingo's eyes.
Also cant wait for the gun tests.

Its there on the BRF page for the Tejas itself.

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 20 Oct 2009 22:02

Very bad translation, but interesting to read ....

http://translate.google.com/translate?p ... _state0=10,

LCA = "Gripen fighter when the CD all the time depends on the performance of the radar if you have AESA (Active Phased Array Radar) LCA can be shot down SU30MKI, but we can say he was stronger than the MKI do? Can not be! The outcome depends on the aircraft, air the entire system performance.

However, LCA's internal equipment is a challenge. However, imports of LCA is very suitable for the radar, receiving systems, intelligence gathering and early warning aircraft systems and coordination. If it is not subject to payload restrictions, he could become multi-purpose fighter.

We all know that LCA's radar reflector surface and the French Rafale, the European Typhoon, Swedish Gripen is small compared to big? Although I know that may belong to a secret, but I really want to know.
CA can be sure that the reflection cross-section is very low, thanks to his appearance, as well as 45% of the amount of composite materials. 而且LCA。 And the LCA air intakes were also low to detect design. I want to reflect size should be smaller than Sweden's Gripen, considering the dimensions of the case.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 04 Nov 2009 11:06

http://www.ada.gov.in/others/MoreCurren ... tnews.html
LCA-Tejas has completed 1216 Test Flights successfully. (21-Oct-09).
* LCA has completed 1216 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-224,PV2-128,PV3-173,LSP1-54,LSP2-99).
* 123rd & 124th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 20th Oct 09.

Do any Panwalas have information about what percentage of the test cases are complete?

wrdos · Post by **wrdos** » 04 Nov 2009 11:53

1216 test flights?

In China, the J10 had to complete more than 3000 test flights before it went into mass production.

So it means still many years left for LCA to go to service?

sameer_shelavale wrote:http://www.ada.gov.in/others/MoreCurren ... tnews.html
LCA-Tejas has completed 1216 Test Flights successfully. (21-Oct-09).
* LCA has completed 1216 Test Flights successfully
(TD1-233,TD2-305,PV1-224,PV2-128,PV3-173,LSP1-54,LSP2-99).
* 123rd & 124th flight of Tejas PV1 occurred on 20th Oct 09.

Do any Panwalas have information about what percentage of the test cases are complete?

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 04 Nov 2009 11:54

Read an article on a pakistani daily about LCA. Among a lot of gibberish, they were comparing the increase in unit cost of an LCA with that of an MKI (31 mil vs 33 mil a piece)

Does anyone have the exact price of an LCA as of today? What will be the approximate difference between mk-1 and mk-2 (assuming mk-2 comes out 5 years from now)?

* Link deleted later

Neela · Post by **Neela** » 04 Nov 2009 12:14

Kailash wrote:Read an article on a pakistani daily about LCA. Among a lot of gibberish, they were comparing the increase in unit cost of an LCA with that of an MKI (31 mil vs 33 mil a piece)

Does anyone have the exact price of an LCA as of today? What will be the approximate difference between mk-1 and mk-2 (assuming mk-2 comes out 5 years from now)?

Been there, read that and decided it was a waste of bandwidth!

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 04 Nov 2009 12:42

why the F do ppl give so much importance to what a stupid baki thinks?
Kailash cant you discriminate between a decent newspaper article and a trashy blog?
this is the second time this link has been brought over to BR by people browsing deaf and dumb I think.
Kindly only refer to sources which are not stupid and biased, thanks.

BTW Neela can you edit your post to remove the link to the blog, why should BR give link back to such trashy blogs

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 04 Nov 2009 14:18

Well, agreed with both Mehta and Neela. The article is crap.

Now can we discuss the price of the LCA as of today?

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 04 Nov 2009 16:32

Kailash wrote:Now can we discuss the price of the LCA as of today?

The last I read, it was 31 million a piece (As per Reuters).

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 04 Nov 2009 16:35

sharma.abhinav wrote:I can't say for sure, but I guess it would be a hybrid radar with air to air modes of mmr while air to ground modes of elta's 2032 radar

I guess, it's Elta 2052 (and not 2032).

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 04 Nov 2009 19:26

I guess, it's Elta 2052 (and not 2032).

Elta 2052 is AESA radar.
Tejas Mk-1 will be using Elta 2032, (so without AESA).
We will probably see Elta 2052 or Russian Zuke-AE AESA on Tejas MK-2.

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 04 Nov 2009 19:37

Asit P wrote:
Kailash wrote:Now can we discuss the price of the LCA as of today?
The last I read, it was 31 million a piece (As per Reuters).

Isn't that 31 million for the NLCA?

Even though LCA initially might cost some where between 20-25 million a piece, cost might come down as the production picks up. If only it happens.

Naval LCA will cost more because of the changes that needs to be done and the additional accessories that needs to be fitted.

Now can anyone tell me whats the status of PV5? It is supposed to start flying by now but still no word of it.

Venu · Post by **Venu** » 04 Nov 2009 19:40

Asit P wrote:
sharma.abhinav wrote:I can't say for sure, but I guess it would be a hybrid radar with air to air modes of mmr while air to ground modes of elta's 2032 radar
I guess, it's Elta 2052 (and not 2032).

Is the ELTA 2052 fully developed and ready for induction

. I don't think so

sharma.abhinav · Post by **sharma.abhinav** » 04 Nov 2009 19:53

I guess, it's Elta 2052 (and not 2032).

Asit sir, as far as I know through my readings on BRF the radar that will be integrated first on LCA MK1 for initial opterational clearence will either be a hybrid of our MMR and Elta's 2032, or would entirely be the 2032. Elta's 2052 would in all probability be considered for the MK2 version of the aircraft.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 04 Nov 2009 21:20

We will probably see Elta 2052 or Russian Zuke-AE AESA on Tejas MK-2.

after spending big sums on Israel for LCA-MMR [elta], why waste again integrating with Russian Zhuk., when LCA-MMR would be ready to FCR russian missiles as well.

pralay · Post by **pralay** » 04 Nov 2009 22:06

SaiK wrote:
We will probably see Elta 2052 or Russian Zuke-AE AESA on Tejas MK-2.
after spending big sums on Israel for LCA-MMR [elta], why waste again integrating with Russian Zhuk., when LCA-MMR would be ready to FCR russian missiles as well.

That makes a point, no doubt.

arya · Post by **arya** » 04 Nov 2009 22:35

SaiK wrote:
We will probably see Elta 2052 or Russian Zuke-AE AESA on Tejas MK-2.
after spending big sums on Israel for LCA-MMR [elta], why waste again integrating with Russian Zhuk., when LCA-MMR would be ready to FCR russian missiles as well.

agree

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 05 Nov 2009 04:55

sharma.abhinav wrote:Asit sir, as far as I know through my readings on BRF the radar that will be integrated first on LCA MK1 for initial opterational clearence will either be a hybrid of our MMR and Elta's 2032, or would entirely be the 2032. Elta's 2052 would in all probability be considered for the MK2 version of the aircraft.

sameer_shelavale wrote:Elta 2052 is AESA radar. Tejas Mk-1 will be using Elta 2032, (so without AESA). We will probably see Elta 2052 or Russian Zuke-AE AESA on Tejas MK-2.

Bhai log, there was a report in 'The Hindu' citing P.S. Subramaniam, Programme Director of ADA. It goes like this:-

P.S. Subramaniam, Programme Director, Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), the defence laboratory that is designing the LCA, told The Hindu that “airworthy units” of the Israeli – manufactured MMR would be arriving here early next week for integration into the aircraft. The Elta designed and developed MMR, Elta EL/M-2052 which will be an interim option since India is developing an indigenous one, has already undergone tests on the flight test bed and ground rig in Israel.

That is why I get the impression that LCA MK1 will be a hybrid of Indian MMR and Elta 2052. And we shall try to go for a fully indigenous radar in MK2. Alternatives for MK2 will be sought only if we fail in our endeavour.

Asit P · Post by **Asit P** » 05 Nov 2009 05:05

Venu wrote:Isn't that 31 million for the NLCA? Even though LCA initially might cost some where between 20-25 million a piece, cost might come down as the production picks up. If only it happens.

31 Million is the cost of the birds that are currently being flight tested. This is what the article stated:-

Five Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) costing about $31 million each have already been manufactured by state-run Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) and undergoing trials, while eight more will be ready by mid-2010, defence officials said.

The cost will go further up when we add the cost of the radar and a better engine. Having said that, you are right about the cost coming down owing to economies of scale.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Nov 2009 06:33

If that report is any confirmation [actually we have already discussed this here], then it is to be assumed that our new IAF specs mandate AESA for LCA, and while Elta-DRDO works on the LCA-MMR-AESA, the interim is 2052.

If that is a ddmities and that IAF really does not care AESA for LCA, then it could be 2032. The exacts will be known only after MMR loads in, and fires all kinds, and IAF starts user acceptance trials.

Kailash · Post by **Kailash** » 05 Nov 2009 08:12

Currently, royalties/costs for the radar and engine are still flowing out of the country. R&D costs have increased than previously planned and number have drastically come down (to 40). All this has to be amortized while calculating the new cost - certainly going to be > 25mil.

This is while ignoring the mk-2 - which will have its own R&D costs, imports and price tag.

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 05 Nov 2009 13:12

Thanks Kailash and Neela,
Didnt mean to be so rude. but generally pissed at such blogs getting clicks from BRF and eyeballs from BRFites.

Brando · Post by **Brando** » 05 Nov 2009 13:44

Are there any concrete parameters that the LCA has to establish or are they just going to add everything under the sun to the LCA ? I ask because of the confusion between AESA and non-AESA radar that is "going" to be added to the final version.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Nov 2009 19:01

AESA with its extended range helps in BVR engagements. Besides, they could jam in multiple use for it [communications, high freq jamming, LPI, pulse mode with different frequencies using diff t/rs (stealth mode) and wider target types, and very useful for a multi role a/c. Passive ops including RWR, and passive scanning and tracking capabilities improves for more stealth ops. AESA is a high jam resistant., and on passive mode detections, it can go switched off.. The technology really helps LCA for a true "multi - role" capability.

Further an AlGaN or GaN MMICs helps AESA for high amps.. Dileep saab can give more info on this. Also one may wiki arround http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GaN

maitya · Post by **maitya** » 05 Nov 2009 20:43

SaiK wrote:Further an AlGaN or GaN MMICs helps AESA for high amps.. Dileep saab can give more info on this. Also one may wiki arround http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GaN

I did answer these issues - that was waaaaay back in 2006 - some snippets:

IIRC some of the basic differentiators between GaAs and GaN based transistors (both having higher operating frequency tapability and similar noise figures) are as follows :
Code: Select all
Features                           GaAs          GaN     
----------                         ------        -----      
Power Density (at X-Band)          1.5W/mm       10W/mm
DC-to-RF Efficiency (at X-Band)    20%           ~36% and 60% (at L-Band)
Energy Gap at Room Temp            1.90eV        3.4eV
Breakdown E-Field (V/Cm)           6.5*10^5      3.5*10^6

Betw, in lay-man (like me ) terms, what the above means are as follows:

Power Density: Higher power densities allow smaller chips to handle the same amount of power, resulting in more chips per wafer, and hence, lower costs per chip. Also will result in smaller chips.

DC-to-RF Efficiency: Measure how effieciently RF waves are generated i.e. how less heat is genarated in the process of creating RF waves. Thus higher efficiency implies less thermal mgmt headache and there-in weight penalties.

Energy Gap or Band Gap: Higher the value, allows higher temperature operation (thus requiring less cooling) and higher radiation stability. Also higher the value more closer you're to be classifiead as an insulator.

Break down E-Field: Higher value means higher "tolerance" to higher voltage - thus more resistant to breakdown due to high voltage peaks.

Details can be found in the following Archived thread:
Radar thread - specs & discussions

Hope this helps.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 05 Nov 2009 20:47

It seems like Radar integration is taking lot of time LSP3/4 and PV-5 are no where to be seen and we are coming to end of this year ,it will be very disappointing year for Tejas program if this jets couldn't take their first flight has expected

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 05 Nov 2009 21:37

be very disappointing year for Tejas program

you should not, even from a layman's view if you could pay attentions to the factors.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 10 Nov 2009 14:51

Just one flight test in 10 days.... something serious is going on

Calm before storm???

Dmurphy · Post by **Dmurphy** » 10 Nov 2009 15:59

karan_mc wrote:It seems like Radar integration is taking lot of time LSP3/4 and PV-5 are no where to be seen and we are coming to end of this year ,it will be very disappointing year for Tejas program if this jets couldn't take their first flight has expected

RKumar wrote:Just one flight test in 10 days.... something serious is going on Calm before storm???

Hopefully so.

And its supposed to have the IOC next year.

RKumar · Post by **RKumar** » 10 Nov 2009 16:40

Dmurphy wrote:And its supposed to have the IOC next year.

I thought this year, if it is next year then IOC should not be a problem. Because for IOC, it requires less then 300 more sorties. Once MMR/radar is integrated, there should be more sorties as more planes will be avilable and system is getting more stable n mature.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 10 Nov 2009 21:08

LSP-2 (KH2012) first flight was on 16 June 2008 its almost been 18 months now and still no test flight of LSP-3, while LSP-4 was also supposed to be in air by mid 2009 . in this three years (2007-09) period HAL was able to deliver only two LSP and we still need other 6 LSP to meet IOC and FOC by at least 2013, it only shows how slow the actual work is going on in HAL .as per orginal program schedule HAL should deliver all LSP by 2010 ,if LSP-3/4 cannot make its first flight by year end then Tejas program will surely see some more delays

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 10 Nov 2009 21:11

SaiK wrote:
be very disappointing year for Tejas program
you should not, even from a layman's view if you could pay attentions to the factors.

sir to what factors are you referring to ? other then some weapons trials nothing big has happened yet to Tejas program yet this year

sunny y · Post by **sunny y** » 11 Nov 2009 21:37

karan_mc wrote:LSP-2 (KH2012) first flight was on 16 June 2008 its almost been 18 months now and still no test flight of LSP-3, while LSP-4 was also supposed to be in air by mid 2009 . in this three years (2007-09) period HAL was able to deliver only two LSP and we still need other 6 LSP to meet IOC and FOC by at least 2013, it only shows how slow the actual work is going on in HAL .as per orginal program schedule HAL should deliver all LSP by 2010 ,if LSP-3/4 cannot make its first flight by year end then Tejas program will surely see some more delays

shubh shubh bolo yaar

Be positive. May be they are really doing some serious stuff, may be they are planning to give us a new year gift.
Let us assume that Tejas gets inducted in 2011. Is there any chance that we can see it participating in Red Flag or atleast Cope Thunder ??

Thanks

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 11 Nov 2009 22:47

Well I cannot comment on the LSP thing but a Tejas was up in the year after a really long time......

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 11 Nov 2009 22:52

sunny, hold your horses, let it be inducted in numbers into IAF first.

skganji · Post by **skganji** » 12 Nov 2009 00:37

Guys, LCA needs to be inducted into Indian Air Force asap. This can't be delayed. The Chinese rattling is continuing and it may reach the peak. They are not happy with the Dalai Lama's visit. We need LCA and also we need to increase the Air power .

karthik · Post by **karthik** » 12 Nov 2009 00:50

Asking the DRDO or GTRE to come up with a 4.5 gen fighter is like asking Indian Railways(Coach factory) to come up with a super magnetic train. I dont think these Gov run org have it in them to work efficiently(With the exception of ISRO). One of my friends brother was a scientist working on the Kaveri project and tried to do his Phd there, he however left the place and went for a job in the US which pays more and has more opportunity, he did not see any future there.

However i meet this other scientist who was working there for 20 years, he looked and sounded like my physics teacher in 12th std which is a bad thing. My Physics teacher is good in doing math but creativity and exposure is Zero. I think with people like that you should not expect even the Saras to be commercial viable. I assume there is a serious lack of talent,opportunity and youth at these places.

In the US every engineering kid is inspired and has his eye on NASA, Lockheed Martin as his dream job, in India we have the same thing all our engg kids want to join NASA, Boeing not ISRO or DRDO. After 10yrs of waiting, I feel very negative about this project ever materializing, i hope to be proved wrong though.

sumshyam · Post by **sumshyam** » 12 Nov 2009 00:57

karthik wrote:In India we have the same thing all our engg kids want to join NASA, Boeing not ISRO or DRDO.

Its not always like that...I am an engineering student from an elite engineering college in India ...and I wanna join HAL...and It is not only me...but many other people from my college wanna join PSUs...!!!