LCA news and discussion

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Kakarat
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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kakarat » 07 Mar 2010 18:55

People this is the LCA thread

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby PratikDas » 07 Mar 2010 20:34

Kakarat wrote:People this is the LCA thread

When the LCA is away the tanks will play! :mrgreen:

(Sorry, couldn't resist)

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby skaranam » 09 Mar 2010 00:11

Status of LCA Project
/LOK SABHA/

A contract for the procurement of 20 Tejas Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) in Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) configuration was signed with Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) on March 31, 2006. The total contract cost is Rs. 2701.70 crore. Delay in LCA production is primarily due to refinements carried out in the development phase. A total of Rs. 1712.11 crore has been paid to HAL till December 31, 2009 for the LCA Programme. There was a delay in the development of LCA due to certain technical complexities and denial of critical technologies. Rs. 3301.78 crore was sanctioned for the development of LCA, which includes manufacture of eight numbers of Limited Series Production aircraft. Additional Rs. 2475.78 crore has been approved by the Government for LCA Phase-II programme.

A high level review is being conducted by the Chief of Air Staff once in every quarter and by the Deputy Chief of Air Staff once in every month. LCA is likely to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2011.

This information was given by Defence Minister Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Shri Sivasami C and others in Lok Sabha today.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kartik » 09 Mar 2010 03:32

skaranam wrote:A high level review is being conducted by the Chief of Air Staff once in every quarter and by the Deputy Chief of Air Staff once in every month. LCA is likely to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2011.

A far cry from the days when Air Chief Marshal SK Sareen was in tenure. During his entire tenure, ACM Sareen did not attend a single briefing on the LCA. It was only weeks before he left office that he was briefed by Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar on the LCA and its progress.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby neerajb » 09 Mar 2010 11:13

Kartik wrote:
skaranam wrote:A high level review is being conducted by the Chief of Air Staff once in every quarter and by the Deputy Chief of Air Staff once in every month. LCA is likely to be inducted into the Indian Air Force (IAF) by March 2011.

A far cry from the days when Air Chief Marshal SK Sareen was in tenure. During his entire tenure, ACM Sareen did not attend a single briefing on the LCA. It was only weeks before he left office that he was briefed by Air Marshal Philip Rajkumar on the LCA and its progress.


Kartik just a nitpick. ACM Sareen did visit ADA in Feb 1996 as well to review Tejas. So he visited ADA twice (in 1996 and 1998) during his tenure of 3 years.

Cheers....

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kartik » 09 Mar 2010 12:33

neerajb wrote:
Kartik just a nitpick. ACM Sareen did visit ADA in Feb 1996 as well to review Tejas. So he visited ADA twice (in 1996 and 1998) during his tenure of 3 years.

Cheers....


thanks for that correction Neeraj. The point was simply to show how lack-lustre the IAF support for the LCA project was at that time. thankfully that phase has gone.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby KrishG » 10 Mar 2010 16:22

Deficiencies Dog LCA Navy: Govt

The Indian government told Parliament today that "deficiencies have been detected in the airframe and other associated equipment of the [LCA Navy]. Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is working out modalities with various organisations for rectifying these deficiencies by suitable modifications to the engine/airframe design."

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SaiK » 10 Mar 2010 19:19

It is all perspectives.. wrong words can kill.

Naval variant has new set of requirements, how can that be viewed as product deficiency as against additional features that needed for LCA-N variant.

La: MS word is deficient on Unix boxes.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby K Mehta » 12 Mar 2010 17:45

EJ-200TV on LCA pitch during Aero-India09
Extra control surface added due to Thrust Vectoring Nozzle.
Image
Effect of TVC on take-off distance
Image
Original source-Journal of Aerospace sciences and technology-Vol 61:1, page 230
Image

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby K Mehta » 12 Mar 2010 17:48

x-posting from Naval thread
I believe IN has been much more forward thinking when it comes to the development of NLCA. The addition of levcons as an extra control surface as well as derby as BVR missile was done long back.
FWIW, When I visited the ADA booth at Aerosem-08, I was consistently given the answer that NLCA as well as LCA-mkII will be powered by EJ-200. That along with the anouncement of thrust vectoring EJ-200 for the LCA makes a great deal of sense for NLCA.
All I can understand from that news piece is that NLCA will have a different engine than current LCA period.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 12 Mar 2010 18:03

I always find Navy more involved in the systems they need. We may say lot of systems are imported. Yet in every system we find Navy is taking steps to involve itself instead of behaving like a arrogent customer.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby nrshah » 12 Mar 2010 18:20

Narayana Rao wrote:I always find Navy more involved in the systems they need. We may say lot of systems are imported. Yet in every system we find Navy is taking steps to involve itself instead of behaving like a arrogent customer.


And it for this, we also find indigenous content more in IN then any other armed services... And we haven't come across navy saying its indigenous systems are poor or dated or less capable.... and considering the professional attitude of navy there is no reason to believe it accepted sub standard stuff...

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby SaiK » 12 Mar 2010 18:22

^you are absolutely right.. even for trishul failures, they backed a DRDO-Rafael venture for Barak-NG version rather an all out firangi option. Kudos IN.

nau sena ki jai ho!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Kersi D » 12 Mar 2010 19:09

nrshah wrote:
Narayana Rao wrote:I always find Navy more involved in the systems they need. We may say lot of systems are imported. Yet in every system we find Navy is taking steps to involve itself instead of behaving like a arrogent customer.


And it for this, we also find indigenous content more in IN then any other armed services... And we haven't come across navy saying its indigenous systems are poor or dated or less capable.... and considering the professional attitude of navy there is no reason to believe it accepted sub standard stuff...


I think the reasons are

IN is quite sure about what it really wants, how and probably at what price

IN has a very strong technical team i.e. DGNP.

With a few exceptions IN ahs accepted almost all the suitable products developed by DRDO

Will the IAF accept the LGB developed by DRDO or will it make ever changing GQRS to scuttle it ? IN is very keen on indigenous torpedoes and taking great pains to amke it succeed.

For Tejas N, a high ranking naval aviator is monitoring the progress. Any top brass form IA or IAF did so or is doing so for Arjun or Tejas, respectively

In brief

IN. Be Indian Buy Indian

IAF / IA. Be Indian Buy Indian product only if no phoren maal is available easily

K

Sorry if I am a little over harsh on IA / IAF

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 12 Mar 2010 19:51

err, let's not bracket the IAF with the IA please, they have come a long way starting from ACM Major's reign at the top.
since then
A high level review is being conducted by the Chief of Air Staff once in every quarter and by the Deputy Chief of Air Staff once in every month.
in addition to the regular people who are associated with the program. even in case of LCH, they agreed to fund it partially when the project was still on drawing boards.

IA (armoured forces esp) has miles to go before they can even start thinking like that, let alone do it.

as I see it, in the 70's and 80's the services had very legitimate gripes with DRDO's capabilities, it wasn't all DRDO's fault (GOI did its bit :roll: ) but the forces looking for results can't be expected to appreciate that (rightly so). things started changing in the 80's with IGMDP/LCA/arjun but unfortunately in the period of euphoria timeline claims were made that could not be realistically met. so there ensued another period of disenchantment in the 90's. however, the ground work laid in the 80's and 90's were starting to bear fruit, we now had across the board capabilities in a lot of areas, cutting down lead times and shortening the incremental development cycle. IN anyway had always understood the need for in-house R&D and continued to utilise the strengths available in India. IAF was a little late in the game but they too grasped the matter starting from mid 2000's, from when they are firmly associated with the programs.
that leaves the army, there the thinking is still stuck in late 70's where DRDO is just another civilian organisation and soviet russia is a superpower.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby dinesha » 15 Mar 2010 11:17

DRDO in a fix over Antony remarks on naval plane
http://indiatoday.intoday.in/site/Story ... plane.html
Though no one in the DRDO was willing to go on record, a senior project official of the indigenous Light Combat Aircraft in Bangalore said a problem with the "airframe" could not arise simply because the prototype was still being built.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby krishnan » 15 Mar 2010 16:14

LCA does another 8 flight tests

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby HarishV » 16 Mar 2010 13:05

LCA does another 8 flight tests


LCA carried out a weapons at Jamnagar in October Oh-Nine.

At this point are the LCA PV/LSPs still under-going tests for the flight envelope or is the nature of the tests more of checking weapons integration, a2g/a2a-targetting, MMR-radar?
Any followup after the R73 tests in Feb?

Gurus, please to be enlightening!

HAL just doesn't seem to put out frequent releases :(( Thoda marketing ho jawe pleeej!!!!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Yagnasri » 16 Mar 2010 13:32

what happend to the local panwalas and chaiwalas. All of them has gone to native places for Ugadi or what. Gurus call them on their mobiles and get some info. nothing is comming up for so long.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Gaur » 16 Mar 2010 18:00

Amazing renderings of Tejas.
Courtesy & ©Pavel Romsy
Image
Image

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 16 Mar 2010 18:14

awesome ! this is his earlier creation : http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/IAF/Image ... D.jpg.html

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby shukla » 16 Mar 2010 19:40

Germany bats for EJ200 for LCA amongst other things.. Promises TOT..

project is related to the Eurofighter. Eurojet, a German company, is bidding with its Eurofighter engine EJ 200 to enhance the performance of IAF's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) TEJAS. Choosing this engine for the LCA would provide best value for money for the IAF and would help make better use of the inherent capabilities and growth potential of the LCA. With regard to transfer of technology, the Indian defence industry would get access to state-of-the-art jet engine technology and, in turn, could gain more independence in this field.

Moreover, there will be synergistic effects if the Eurofighter is chosen as the MMRCA. Engaging with EADS and Eurojet would enable India to be in a position to produce the engines for its new MMRCA on its own. In my view, it is very important to take these aspects into consideration when deciding about the modernization of the Indian Armed Forces. Using only the take-away price as the paramount criteria may turn out to be less advantageous. German companies have an excellent reputation in the world, as they do in India. "Made in Germany" represents a seal of quality that stands for innovation and cutting-edge technology.


http://indiastrategic.in/topstories541.htm

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby RKumar » 19 Mar 2010 13:56

LCA does another 7 flight tests

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby narayana » 19 Mar 2010 15:28

RKumar wrote:LCA does another 7 flight tests



Couple of tests are of LSP-1 after long time,so may be Radar Integration Tests started :)

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Srivastav » 19 Mar 2010 15:51

narayana wrote:Couple of tests are of LSP-1 after long time,so may be Radar Integration Tests started :)


yes...hopefully its true....it does appear that in the last 8 months or so LSP-1 has had 4 flights...and the recent 2 flights were first after a month, so something is definitely up.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Brando » 19 Mar 2010 16:55

^^ Waiting for the induction of the LCA is like waiting for the second coming. They keep doing tests and tests and tests for years on end with no end in sight. They still haven't decided about the engine and I'm sure the Mk2 will take another long spell that is sure to disgust even the most rabid supporter of the LCA project. Testing should be a rigorous and streamlined process that is time bound, not the lackadaisical pottering around that the clowns at HAL and DRDO are conducting.

Lets not forget that once they choose a new engine and they install the new engine, they are going to need to run a whole bunch of tests again. I'm sure that process will take a couple of years again till the IAF gives it its colors. :roll:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby narayana » 19 Mar 2010 17:13

Brando wrote:^^ Waiting for the induction of the LCA is like waiting for the second coming


Yep Brando,i was dreaming about LCA since the first Ground run tests by PM P.V. Narasimha rao,i was in my early teens then, since then long time has passed, i lost half of my hair waiting for it and still its not in service :(.lets hope our long wait will be over in a couple of years.

We do have positive indications.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 19 Mar 2010 17:57

ground run tests happened in 2001, long after PVNR.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby prasadha » 19 Mar 2010 20:23

shukla wrote:Germany bats for EJ200 for LCA amongst other things.. Promises TOT..

project is related to the Eurofighter. Eurojet, a German company, is bidding with its Eurofighter engine EJ 200 to enhance the performance of IAF's Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) TEJAS. Choosing this engine for the LCA would provide best value for money for the IAF and would help make better use of the inherent capabilities and growth potential of the LCA. With regard to transfer of technology, the Indian defence industry would get access to state-of-the-art jet engine technology and, in turn, could gain more independence in this field.

Moreover, there will be synergistic effects if the Eurofighter is chosen as the MMRCA. Engaging with EADS and Eurojet would enable India to be in a position to produce the engines for its new MMRCA on its own. In my view, it is very important to take these aspects into consideration when deciding about the modernization of the Indian Armed Forces. Using only the take-away price as the paramount criteria may turn out to be less advantageous. German companies have an excellent reputation in the world, as they do in India. "Made in Germany" represents a seal of quality that stands for innovation and cutting-edge technology.



Brando

Are you suggesting that the "clowns at HAL and DRDO" don't know anything about their profession. Excuse me for being rude but I think that making cynical statements and sarcastic remarks doesn't make us experts either. This is the first time they are testing such an aircraft and are you suggesting that they should just handover the plane to IAF without testing, just because you can't wait.

The gurus have shared the comparison of timelines for LCA development against other fighter aircrafts. Where do you think we should improve, in your obviously broad aeronautical experience?

Thanks

Prasad

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby HarishV » 19 Mar 2010 20:40

Couple of tests are of LSP-1 after long time,so may be Radar Integration Tests started


I don't understand - If the radar integration is just ongoing how are the weapons delivery systems proven? How about the HMS, look-and-shoot systems proven? Weren't there some trials with weapons systems done in Jamnagar a few months ago in 09?

Brando's rant may be jarring for some but I'm starting to believe enough cotton wool has been padded around the problem - and enough people shout down the doubting Thomases.
Yes the research labs didn't have the expertise to make an aircraft, but at the end of the day [and 3 decades] not delivering on time is considered a failure.
Never mind that.
Serious doubts are cast over the IOC by-date of March 2011 having already been shifted from mid-2009.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby munna » 19 Mar 2010 20:44

HarishV wrote:Yes the research labs didn't have the expertise to make an aircraft, but at the end of the day [and 3 decades] not delivering on time is considered a failure

:roll:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 19 Mar 2010 21:54

HarishV wrote:
Couple of tests are of LSP-1 after long time,so may be Radar Integration Tests started


I don't understand - If the radar integration is just ongoing how are the weapons delivery systems proven? How about the HMS, look-and-shoot systems proven? Weren't there some trials with weapons systems done in Jamnagar a few months ago in 09?
......

why is a radar necessary for A2G weapons tests ? the jaguars and the mig-27s have no radars, how do they perform as weapons platform then ?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Carl_T » 19 Mar 2010 22:13

Maybe the LCA isn't delayed that much...eg I think the F-22 program started in early 80s, and only became operational in about 2003. And we are a country that has no experience developing fighter jets.


With that said, HAL should be given all the resources it needs in order to induct it relatively quickly.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Wickberg » 19 Mar 2010 22:16

Rahul M wrote:why is a radar necessary for A2G weapons tests ? the jaguars and the mig-27s have no radars, how do they perform as weapons platform then ?


I thought that Jaguars were part of the navy strike force armed with anti-ship missiles. How are they suppose to use those missiles without any radar?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 19 Mar 2010 22:20

that's only the marine version, jag IM's. rest were w/o radars for thsi long.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Anurag » 19 Mar 2010 22:27

So I take it that the Jags that dropped the LGB's during Kargil used a Pod for targeting?
Oh wait, LGB's only use Pods..."Laser"...Duh! Nevermind! :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 19 Mar 2010 22:31

only one jag dropped LGB in kargil using atlis pod and it missed. rest were dropped by mirages.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Wickberg » 20 Mar 2010 00:36

Rahul M wrote:that's only the marine version, jag IM's. rest were w/o radars for thsi long.


Ok, ty now I understand. But why is it no LCA has yet flown with a multi-purpose radar? Have they not yet decided on which radar to use?

(Not flaming here but the LCA project seems so backwards in a kinda of way. One of the first thing you do is to choose an engine and then the combat system (radar) and then design the fuselage around that. LCA seems to have done the other way around, first build the fuselage, then decide which engine and combat system to use)

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby putnanja » 20 Mar 2010 00:41

Wickberg wrote:(Not flaming here but the LCA project seems so backwards in a kinda of way. One of the first thing you do is to choose an engine and then the combat system (radar) and then design the fuselage around that. LCA seems to have done the other way around, first build the fuselage, then decide which engine and combat system to use)


Nope, it had been selected earlier. The initial plan was to use the Kaveri engine and the MMR radar for LCA. Both Kaveri and MMR radar were bogged down with development problems. The MMR is in much better shape than Kaveri though. So instead of waiting for Kaveri, it was decided to power the first batches of LCA with a foreign engine and a tender has been out to select an engine for LCA. The MMR will have some components of ELTA 2032 radar to speed up its development, and that is what will be installed on LCA. MMR is undergoing some more tests and it should be mounted on LCA this year.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 20 Mar 2010 01:05

the radar had some issues in the A2G modes. it was decided to use some EL/M2032 components till the Indian ones were ready.
the A2A modes OTOH actually gave better performance than expected, similar to the mig-29k's radar.


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