LCA news and discussion

NRao · Post by **NRao** » 11 Apr 2010 08:16

so it confirms earlier Chaiwala News Network report that still many of the components come from Labs then production house

I would think it is only AFTER the component (that comes from a "Labs") gets qualified that it can go to a "production house". Or am I missing something?

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 11 Apr 2010 08:50

@ Nrao many of the components have been qualified to be produced in production house but still they are sourced from Labs since production house is not producing them yet due to their own inabilities

shiv · Post by **shiv** » 11 Apr 2010 09:36

There is at least one mind-bogglingly critical component that comes from abroad. Aviation grade Aluminium - without which no aircraft can be built.

The consequences of this are usually discussed in the Strat forum in terms of "foreign pressure and sanctions on India" and how certain countries cannot be treated like dogshit even though we feel those countries can have no handle on India. We have to suck up to them.

karan_mc · Post by **karan_mc** » 12 Apr 2010 08:30

Tejas to be stationed at new IAF base in Rajasthan

Uniquely, the new air base that was inaugurated four days ago is the first forward-operating airbase to be commissioned by the IAF in more than two decades. The first lot of the LCA — a squadron of 20 aircraft — is scheduled to be handed over to the IAF in 11 months from now. The second squadron will follow a year later — both are being built at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) unit at Bangalore. Once handed over to the IAF, the LCA’s first base, briefly, will be at a station in South India, from where the fighters will move in batches to Phalodi, the sources said. Moving planes in small batches is a normal IAF procedure. Phalodi has the capacity to handle other aircraft besides deep penetration radars.

Base in South for Tejas will be temporary and will head to base close to Pakistan shows that iaf have enough confidence on the Tejas

http://idrw.org/?p=1268#more-1268

shukla · Post by **shukla** » 12 Apr 2010 08:43

An additional $ 538.2 million (about Rs 2,500 crore) has been approved by the government for the LCA Phase-II programme. For this, the engines are to be selected soon.

Any news on the engines front? The last info was that a decision would be made by end of march 2010... Obviously thats been delayed for some reason.....

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 12 Apr 2010 08:46

Not sure if its OT here. But wasn't the IAF going to station a squadron or so in the south and start slowly building a presence? iirc there was some interview where it was said that the iaf realises the importance of the vast sea area to our south and would like to increase presence slowly. So sulur is going to be just a staging area for the lca then.

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Apr 2010 08:48

tsriram wrote:Not sure if its OT here. But wasn't the IAF going to station a squadron or so in the south and start slowly building a presence? iirc there was some interview where it was said that the iaf realises the importance of the vast sea area to our south and would like to increase presence slowly. So sulur is going to be just a staging area for the lca then.

It might be that the MRCA ( if they ever come) might get stationed at Sulur once the LCA completes its term there and heads north.

Or else, later squadrons of the LCA would have permanent station at Sulur once all the initial planned numbers are sent to the borders.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 12 Apr 2010 09:11

tsriram wrote:Not sure if its OT here. But wasn't the IAF going to station a squadron or so in the south and start slowly building a presence? iirc there was some interview where it was said that the iaf realises the importance of the vast sea area to our south and would like to increase presence slowly. So sulur is going to be just a staging area for the lca then.

Let's be clear about the availability of Tejas after IOC or even FOC. Pilots have to be trained on this new machine and the machine itself will have to settle down into regular work routine etc. It is going to take time. IMO, Sulur will be the staging area for Tejas because it is proximal to Bangalore and problems can be attended to or issues sorted out with the manufacturer quickly. Once the Tejas stabilizes, it can move anywhere.

Viv S · Post by **Viv S** » 12 Apr 2010 10:04

karan_mc wrote:
Uniquely, the new air base that was inaugurated four days ago is the first forward-operating airbase to be commissioned by the IAF in more than two decades. The first lot of the LCA — a squadron of 20 aircraft — is scheduled to be handed over to the IAF in 11 months from now. The second squadron will follow a year later — both are being built at the Hindustan Aeronautics Limited (HAL) unit at Bangalore. Once handed over to the IAF, the LCA’s first base, briefly, will be at a station in South India, from where the fighters will move in batches to Phalodi, the sources said. Moving planes in small batches is a normal IAF procedure. Phalodi has the capacity to handle other aircraft besides deep penetration radars.

Forget the first squadron, can someone tell me when the LSP-3 will fly?

geeth · Post by **geeth** » 12 Apr 2010 10:14

>>>There is at least one mind-bogglingly critical component that comes from abroad. Aviation grade Aluminium - without which no aircraft can be built.

My understanding is that India has developed the Al-Li alloys indigenously, and is under production now. Following link throws some light (full article is not freely accessible), though this is not exactly what I was looking for.

http://www.springerlink.com/content/e6831r7603467896/

C R Chakravorty1 Contact Information
(1) Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory, 500 258 Kanchanbagh, Hyderabad, India

Abstract A research programme was initiated at the Defence Metallurgical Research Laboratory, Hyderabad, a decade ago for the indigenous development of Al-Li alloys in order to finally meet the requirements of the space and aircrft industries in the country. This paper describes the systematic studies carried out in the laboratory to overcome the initial difficulties in producing sound ingots, optimize the subsequent heat treatments and processing schedules, and to finally obtain reproducible microstructure and mechanical properties in the semi products (i.e. sheets and extrusions) developed. Laboratory-scale sheet and extrusion products meet tensile property specification of 8090 alloy. One of these semiproducts, i.e. round bar extrusion, is currently being supplied for the stallite programmes. Commercial-scale sheet products made in Russia under an Indo-Russian joint programme have been made available for the aircraft programme. Recent alloy development studies in the laboratory are discussed within the context of the present paper.

Keywords Al-Li alloy - ingot casting - heat treatment - mechanical processing - sheet - extrusion - mechanical properties - corrosion

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Apr 2010 15:20

Did anyone watch a TV interview with the COAS,where the blurb had it that he "was unhappy " with the LCA?

sum · Post by **sum** » 12 Apr 2010 15:29

Philip wrote:Did anyone watch a TV interview with the COAS,where the blurb had it that he "was unhappy " with the LCA?

Philip-ji,
Already reported and discussed in Military Aviation thread.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 12 Apr 2010 16:02

SanjibGhosh · Post by **SanjibGhosh** » 12 Apr 2010 16:23

Philip wrote:Did anyone watch a TV interview with the COAS,where the blurb had it that he "was unhappy " with the LCA?

I have mentioned this in the MMRCA thread. He is not happy with the progress of LCA (he also added that he is not happy since past 20yr).
He has also mentioned that off late there is a ray of hope that it would be inducted in a sq strength.

But his body language was negative.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 13 Apr 2010 13:49

^^In moments like this I feel so much admiration for porkis. Got to hand it to them that whatever they are provided with they sing praises and keep the moral up. While look what IAF is doing like a pampered child denouncing indigenous products publicly

K Mehta · Post by **K Mehta** » 13 Apr 2010 16:48

I think the frustration from IAF side is a bit justified. They did give ADA a long rope. The deadline for LSP-3 was march 09. And we havent seen it take flight as of yet, it has been delayed by more than a year! That too with the co-operative IAF under ex-COAS Major.
ADA hasnt yet decided the engine too. Its time it gets its act together!

merlin · Post by **merlin** » 13 Apr 2010 18:06

K Mehta wrote:I think the frustration from IAF side is a bit justified. They did give ADA a long rope. The deadline for LSP-3 was march 09. And we havent seen it take flight as of yet, it has been delayed by more than a year! That too with the co-operative IAF under ex-COAS Major.
ADA hasnt yet decided the engine too. Its time it gets its act together!

I think another cause for frustration might be that apparently IOC has been pushed back to March 2011 instead of December 2010 (I read one news report on the changed dates).

Nihat · Post by **Nihat** » 13 Apr 2010 18:09

merlin wrote:
K Mehta wrote:I think the frustration from IAF side is a bit justified. They did give ADA a long rope. The deadline for LSP-3 was march 09. And we havent seen it take flight as of yet, it has been delayed by more than a year! That too with the co-operative IAF under ex-COAS Major.
ADA hasnt yet decided the engine too. Its time it gets its act together!
I think another cause for frustration might be that apparently IOC has been pushed back to March 2011 instead of December 2010 (I read one news report on the changed dates).

3 months should be an expected delay given the general timeline of the LCA.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Apr 2010 18:20

ACM Naik's frustration is quite understandable but to lay it all at the doors of ADA is not quite correct. do have a look at the total time taken by ADA and even with the dual problems of lack of local expertise and sanctions they have managed progress in a time period that is absolutely comparable to those of the more industrialised nations. the del;ay with the LSP or a delay of 3 months here, a couple of months there, these are all par for the course for such programs.
what's not normal elsewhere is bureaucratic redtape and drip funding that has added anything between 3 and 5 years to the program.
it's actually the mismanagement at the higher level of MOD that created many of those problems. while ADA is the obvious target in case of a delay we need to remember the actual story too.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Apr 2010 18:44

SanjibGhosh wrote:
Philip wrote:Did anyone watch a TV interview with the COAS,where the blurb had it that he "was unhappy " with the LCA?
I have mentioned this in the MMRCA thread. He is not happy with the progress of LCA (he also added that he is not happy since past 20yr).
He has also mentioned that off late there is a ray of hope that it would be inducted in a sq strength.

But his body language was negative.

What ? Not happy since past 20 yrs ? Does he thinks developing LCA is like delivering Pizza? You call, they deliver in flat 40 min, like that? So there is ray of hope, hmm. These statements are nothing but pressure tactics. People have seen even bigger mouths...Even the mighty Americans are struggling with their pet project called F-35, so for what reason exactly is he unhappy with LCA? just timeline ?

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 13 Apr 2010 18:44

Manish_Sharma wrote:^^In moments like this I feel so much admiration for porkis. Got to hand it to them that whatever they are provided with they sing praises and keep the moral up. While look what IAF is doing like a pampered child denouncing indigenous products publicly

I would love to see some article mentioning high moral of PAF when they are talking to Pakistani media. When talking to to foreign journalists, you are supposed to show your best side.

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 13 Apr 2010 18:53

Kanson wrote:
SanjibGhosh wrote: I have mentioned this in the MMRCA thread. He is not happy with the progress of LCA (he also added that he is not happy since past 20yr).
He has also mentioned that off late there is a ray of hope that it would be inducted in a sq strength.

But his body language was negative.
What ? Not happy since past 20 yrs ? Does he thinks developing LCA is like delivering Pizza? You call, they deliver in flat 40 min, like that? So there is ray of hope, hmm. These statements are nothing but pressure tactics. People have seen even bigger mouths...Even the mighty Americans are struggling with their pet project called F-35, so for what reason is he unhappy with LCA?

The reason for being unhappy is justified. The IAF is running out of aircrafts, it wants to retire the flying-coffins ASAP, it is at far below optimal number of squadrons and neither the MRCA deal nor LCA seem to be filling the void for next 3-4 years. You cannot remain under-prepared for that long.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Apr 2010 18:54

Kanson wrote: What ? Not happy since past 20 yrs ? Does he thinks developing LCA is like delivering Pizza? You call, they deliver in flat 40 min, like that? So there is ray of hope, hmm. These statements are nothing but pressure tactics. People have seen even bigger mouths...Even the mighty Americans are struggling with their pet project called F-35, so for what reason exactly is he unhappy with LCA? just timeline ?

he definitely has a reason to be unhappy about. think of it from his perspective, IAF asks for a fighter in 1983, even if they expected a 20 year development period, LCA should have been ready by 2003. scratch that, we didn't have the infrastructure, fine add another couple of years.
we should get it by 2005. that is a very realistic date.

now IOC is not expected before 2011. that's a delay of 6 years from the 'reasonable' time table !! IAF, on its part can't be faulted for more than a year of that delay(wing re-design).
no wonder he is peeved. it's not his job to be 'understanding' about who is responsible for what and so forth, he has the skies to protect and to do it with a force that is built up over long periods and those plans go haywire if the expectations aren't met.

fact is that the LCA program has been mismanaged, massively. it's not his problem who was responsible, the MOD babus or HAL or ADA, as long as it was not IAF. we can only hope that the MCA will be better managed. as things go, it sure seems it will be.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Apr 2010 19:06

Right Rahul/babu sir, there is a delay everyone knows that, but is it not for the same reason, IAF got 50 more Su-30mki ? As you say, the delay is for say 6 yrs...so why he is unhappy for 20 yrs ?
If he is unhappy, then he should have taken the mantle right ? LCA is not for local abdul, it is for the IAF right ? What was IAF doing for 20 yrs for him to be unhappy for 20 yrs ?

Does he talked abt the trainer aircraft ? Again there is a delay...He has to be even more unhappy for the lack of proper trainer aircraft for 20 yrs.

nrshah · Post by **nrshah** » 13 Apr 2010 19:19

Kanson wrote:As you say, the delay is for say 6 yrs...so why he is unhappy for 20 yrs ?

perhaps for if LCA was not initiated, MMRCA/Mig replacement would have been initiated much earlier...

just kidding, i understand his frustration and he never said he is frustrated with ADA or MOD or IAF, he says his is frustrated with project and it includes all incl IAF as culprit for some or other reason

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Apr 2010 19:27

As you say, the delay is for say 6 yrs...so why he is unhappy for 20 yrs ?

because the origin of the delays go that far back. the program started with a big delay, since then it has had a steady but moderate speed. this too could have been quickened with better management but the bulk of the delay comes from the first few years.
of course it's true that progress would have been much quicker if IAF was tuned in from the start, as it has been for the past 3-4 years. but you can't realistically expect the ACM to say that can you ?

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 13 Apr 2010 19:39

Kanson wrote:Right Rahul/babu sir, there is a delay everyone knows that, but is it not for the same reason, IAF got 50 more Su-30mki ? As you say, the delay is for say 6 yrs...so why he is unhappy for 20 yrs ?
If he is unhappy, then he should have taken the mantle right ? LCA is not for local abdul, it is for the IAF right ? What was IAF doing for 20 yrs for him to be unhappy for 20 yrs ?

Does he talked abt the trainer aircraft ? Again there is a delay...He has to be even more unhappy for the lack of proper trainer aircraft for 20 yrs.

I have not seen the article myself so I do not know if he expressed the reason for remaining dissatisfied for 20 years. I would like to point out the SU30MKI are not a replacement for LCA and cannot be used in roles for which LCA is being developed. LCA is far lighter aircraft and SU30MKI is in different league altogether, so getting 50 more Sukhois does not solve the problem.
*peace*

arya · Post by **arya** » 13 Apr 2010 19:42

Kanson wrote:Right Rahul/babu sir, there is a delay everyone knows that, but is it not for the same reason, IAF got 50 more Su-30mki ? As you say, the delay is for say 6 yrs...so why he is unhappy for 20 yrs ?
If he is unhappy, then he should have taken the mantle right ? LCA is not for local abdul, it is for the IAF right ? What was IAF doing for 20 yrs for him to be unhappy for 20 yrs ?

Does he talked abt the trainer aircraft ? Again there is a delay...He has to be even more unhappy for the lack of proper trainer aircraft for 20 yrs.

Sir,
i think IAF got 40 more MKI [Correct if I am wrong]

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Apr 2010 20:10

Rahul M wrote:
As you say, the delay is for say 6 yrs...so why he is unhappy for 20 yrs ?
because the origin of the delays go that far back. the program started with a big delay, since then it has had a steady but moderate speed. this too could have been quickened with better management but the bulk of the delay comes from the first few years.
of course it's true that progress would have been much quicker if IAF was tuned in from the start, as it has been for the past 3-4 years. but you can't realistically expect the ACM to say that can you ?

hmm... big delay at the start is due to the IAF, na? Anyway, he is just playing to the gallery, and if he wants to correct the system wherever there is fault then it is a good move. But if his intension is right, then he should show that into practise with the management of trainer aircraft procurement first.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 13 Apr 2010 20:21

i think IAF got 40 more MKI [Correct if I am wrong]

Dont know...but what i know is they got their butt covered by this additional procurement.

I have not seen the article myself so I do not know if he expressed the reason for remaining dissatisfied for 20 years. I would like to point out the SU30MKI are not a replacement for LCA and cannot be used in roles for which LCA is being developed. LCA is far lighter aircraft and SU30MKI is in different league altogether, so getting 50 more Sukhois does not solve the problem.
*peace*

Peace always

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Apr 2010 20:25

hmm... big delay at the start is due to the IAF, na?

how so ? it was never IAF's project to delay, unless they started the army games of 'wild goose chase' (someone called them "trials ha ha ha" games which I feel is a more apt description), which thankfully they never did. MOD didn't fund the project for 2 full years after the PD phase was completed. much of the delay due to sanctions could also have been avoided had we started 2 years earlier. that makes a total of 3-4 years. in addition the drip funding (again from MOD) held up the program at crucial stages. all that easily adds up to 5 years or more.

let's not blame the man without being aware of the facts.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 13 Apr 2010 22:26

What is stopping LCA from being produced in larger numbers now? Remember that info in public domain is 6-9 months old. The LCAs FCL/FBW is proven and the flight envelope is open, AOA, speed numbers, weaponization is probably in wrap up stage. Hot weather, Cold weather and sea level trials are complete. The bird is ready to go to work. So what is stopping the 8 LSPs and the 20 production a/c from being delivered?

Rahul is right there is some justification for the IAF's story. However, it is strange that when the a/c is ready to enter squadron service the vice-chief should say this.

Kartik · Post by **Kartik** » 13 Apr 2010 23:13

babbupandey wrote:
The reason for being unhappy is justified. The IAF is running out of aircrafts, it wants to retire the flying-coffins ASAP, it is at far below optimal number of squadrons and neither the MRCA deal nor LCA seem to be filling the void for next 3-4 years. You cannot remain under-prepared for that long.

DO NOT REFER TO THE MiG-21 AS THE FLYING COFFIN !! Have you the slightest idea of how much service that one aircraft has provided to the IAF and what its attrition rate per 10,000 hours is ? BRF is not a DDM forum where ignorant DDMites can say anything they want and get away with it.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 13 Apr 2010 23:22

^^
strongly second that.

rohitvats · Post by **rohitvats** » 13 Apr 2010 23:32

I guess we need to make the reading of AM Rajkumar's book,'The Tejas Story' as mandatory read before anyone comments on the historical aspect of Tejas Programme...

Carl_T · Post by **Carl_T** » 13 Apr 2010 23:34

I think there needs to be a FAQs sticky for many of these questions. Because they will reappear.

babbupandey · Post by **babbupandey** » 14 Apr 2010 00:12

Kartik wrote:
babbupandey wrote:
The reason for being unhappy is justified. The IAF is running out of aircrafts, it wants to retire the flying-coffins ASAP, it is at far below optimal number of squadrons and neither the MRCA deal nor LCA seem to be filling the void for next 3-4 years. You cannot remain under-prepared for that long.
DO NOT REFER TO THE MiG-21 AS THE FLYING COFFIN !! Have you the slightest idea of how much service that one aircraft has provided to the IAF and what its attrition rate per 10,000 hours is ? BRF is not a DDM forum where ignorant DDMites can say anything they want and get away with it.

My apologies for hurting your sentiments but that does not justify you calling me a DDMite
My point was simple, Mig-21 is old and should be retired. No amount of retro-fitting and upgrade will help. Please face the truth, IAF is losing brilliant pilots because of this plane, it may have served us well but it is high time that we stop being sentimental and move on.
Here is the reason why I called them flying-coffins:
http://www.thehindubusinessline.com/200 ... 010801.htm
Stats (up to 2003)
350 crashes
170 lives

Here is one more interesting detail to note: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:MiG21operators.png
We are the only country with a sizable military (so-called aspiring global power) to operate them even today.

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Apr 2010 00:14

HAL needs to invest more for the production facilities for LCA. Since HAL is a PSU it is not expected to operate on a profit basis. What is therefore stopping HAL from building up production lines? They need to get more birds built, install the radar and get MK1 in squadron service.

Also, it seems that IAF wants to sit back and criticize HAL, DRDO, and other vendors. When is IAF going to take ownership of the matter(s)?

What good did IAF's whining about the Hawks do? Did BAE pay up the $10 milion demanded? What good did it do anybody on the Gorshkov? We ended up paying $2.3 billion extra to the Russians for a rustbucket? Who's going to hold the Russians responsible for using the "honey trap" on a perceived friend and so many here think of it as "Mother Russia". What good did whining do on the Scorpene issue - more money and delayed delivery!!!

Why doesn't the vice-chief say anything about the MRCA which potentially draw out as long as the AJT contract?

Vivek K · Post by **Vivek K** » 14 Apr 2010 00:18

Babu Pandey - Please read your history again. Also bring out crashes per 10,000 operating hours. IAF's Mig-21s for a brief period had some issues due to the collapse of the Soviet Union. The older types (FL, PF and M?) have already been retired. The ones flying are the later generation bis upgraded to bison standard and the un-converted bis aircraft. These have performed well against most types and have proven to be good on safety.

These will be replaced once the IAF can entrust the backbone of their fleet to the LCAs.

Prasad · Post by **Prasad** » 14 Apr 2010 00:20

Vivek K wrote:HAL needs to invest more for the production facilities for LCA. Since HAL is a PSU it is not expected to operate on a profit basis. What is therefore stopping HAL from building up production lines? They need to get more birds built, install the radar and get MK1 in squadron service.

Did you read the report tabled by the def min which was posted earlier in the thread. please read through that before calling for a billion dollar investment into production facilities. please please please read through them!