LCA news and discussion

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NRao
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Re: LCA RADAR

Postby NRao » 02 Jun 2010 23:50

steve wrote:About the LCA radar

The Hybrid MMR won’t be seen on the future versions of the aircraft apart from the first 40 as the Electronics and Radar Development Establishment (LRDE) is working on a much advance Active Electronically Scanner Array radar (AESA) which be much superior to the Hybrid MMR. The new AESA radar is necessary for the Tejas to receive the Final operations clearance (FOC).



I would think once the radar changes that the plane would need appropriate testing, IOC, etc.

I am inclined to believe that with the proliferation of blogs, people with some contacts, have started to publish stuff that is not very reliable. Communication problems - what was said, what was meant, what was understood, what is blogged. Add to that language issues - some can not even put two thought properly on paper!!!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Prasad » 03 Jun 2010 00:17

Somehow, more than all the other LCA models, the LSP-4 looks a lot more menacing and 'fighter', especially in the first picture on tarmak's blog. Waiting for a fully loaded LCA pic in dark grey or even black :twisted:

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Re: LCA RADAR

Postby naird » 03 Jun 2010 00:48

NRao wrote:
I would think once the radar changes that the plane would need appropriate testing, IOC, etc.


If the radar dimensions are same OR i should say if there are no changes to nose of LCA then Testing would not be needed for the frame and structure. If the nose strcuture does change then the whole issue about centre of gravity , structural load and balance , etc would come into play - This will very well lead to the entire spectrum of tests once again. Just my two cents.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 03 Jun 2010 06:11

Tejas LSP-4 Goes Supersonic In First Flight
........................................................

Similar to the April 23 first flight of LSP-3, the LSP-4 also carried the Elta multi-mode radar (MMR) onboard. The LSP-4 aircraft is the 10th test vehicle to join the flight line. Tejas is slated to receive initial operational clearance (IOC) by December, paving way for its induction into the Indian Air Force (IAF).

Vice Chief of IAF Air Marshal P.K. Barbora told AVIATION WEEK that the first flight of LSP-4 is “one step forward” in the project.

“As you move along in a program, you will overcome problems quickly. Now the LSP-5, 6 and 7 will come,” he said. “It’s a proud moment and we are also keenly awaiting the arrival of LCA Mk-II in the years to come, which will be an advanced platform.”

Program Director (Combat Aircraft) and Director, Aeronautics Development Agency (ADA) P.S. Subramanyam told AVIATION WEEK that the project is moving toward IOC.

“The LSP-4 is equipped fully to the standards of IOC. We are left with a few more flight tests and then Tejas would reach the much-awaited target. The Tejas team will now head for hot weather trials (HWT),” Subramanyam said. The HWT is likely to be held at Nagpur.


............................................................

“More aircraft will join the fleet now and the next aircraft (LSP-5) will have all systems of LSP 3 and 4, making it much more advanced. We are on track,” Nayak said.

In addition to the MMR, the LSP-4 had [an] onboard radar warning receiver, [an] electronic countermeasure system (ECM), [and] new avionics software.

“Tejas-LSP-4 is the final configuration of [the] IAF version. Now all the hardware items have come onboard and there won’t be anymore additional systems, barring some software changes,” an ADA source said. “All objectives have been met and all systems worked as per the design. IAF pilots from [the] operational front would soon fly LCA.”


IAF sources said the LCA program’s recent progress has been a huge boost to the force’s confidence in the wake of delays and cost overruns.

“We are all keen to see the Tejas induction. After having waited for so many years, investing so many man hours, review meetings and money, it’s but natural to become anxious. It’s heartening to see the platform is taking definite shape and heading in the right direction,” a senior-ranked IAF official with Air Headquarters said.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby shiv » 03 Jun 2010 06:15

Please folks - lets not argue about "radar more important", "CMDS more important", Engine more important" etc. I have a joke about all the organs of the body claiming to be the most important and how the ax-hole won.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 03 Jun 2010 06:19


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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby rakall » 03 Jun 2010 08:42

Craig Alpert wrote:HI-RES TEJAS LSP-4 PIC



LSP 3 & LSP 4 have a small horizontal plane additions on the vertical tail just behind the forward facing RWR antenna..
Wonder what that is for?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby vina » 03 Jun 2010 08:45

NO In flight refueling in IOC :cry: :cry: :cry: (if LSP-4 is the final deliverable version for IOC!).

I really really hope that full inflight refueling and +9G capability is done for FOC, along with all radar modes proven and a new BVR missile integrated.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby sawant » 03 Jun 2010 09:13

is nt there a fuel probe on the front ... or is it not compatible with the existing tanker fleet....

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2010 09:15

the new find could be radio antenna? civilian a/c have them above & below the fuselage.
http://www.altairva-fs.com/fleet/images ... dg_800.jpg

Vina sir, I think one of the PV have IFR probe right? its a tested thing and I am sure will be put in soon if so. the flight envelope should be fully cleared by IOC itself imo.

wrt AAM, since Astra has not yet done airborne tests, around 100 such airborne trials are usually done before a aam enters
service, so we are 5 yrs away from astra ioc for sure. in meantime, I guess Derby and r73/p5 is it.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby rakall » 03 Jun 2010 09:46

Singha wrote:the new find could be radio antenna? civilian a/c have them above & below the fuselage.
http://www.altairva-fs.com/fleet/images ... dg_800.jpg

in meantime, I guess Derby and r73/p5 is it.


The radio antenna was already there somewhere on the mid-spine.. This additional feature has not been seen on any of the PV's.. it is there LSP3 onwards - something to do with ECM? or whatelse?

problem with IAF LCA seems to be they are yet undecided on the AAM.. IN has already specified Derby..

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Singha » 03 Jun 2010 11:05

israel only has derby - which already works with el2032 - the easiest route. but derby is outmatched in range by mica/r77/amraam. putting in mica/r77 is additional work/time and depends on whims of their OEMs. unless astra comes in fast we have a problem.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby ravit » 03 Jun 2010 17:42

Craig Alpert wrote:HI-RES TEJAS LSP-4 PIC


Pardon my ignorance. But, what is that flag/symbol of black/white/red doing on the tail of the flight? Any countries or companies flag?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Shameek » 03 Jun 2010 18:47

ravit wrote:Pardon my ignorance. But, what is that flag/symbol of black/white/red doing on the tail of the flight? Any countries or companies flag?


Probably looks that way due to the angle/lighting conditions.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby rakall » 03 Jun 2010 22:26

ravit wrote:
Craig Alpert wrote:HI-RES TEJAS LSP-4 PIC


Pardon my ignorance. But, what is that flag/symbol of black/white/red doing on the tail of the flight? Any countries or companies flag?



Oh.. that.. That is the Italian flag (mirror image) as a tribute to the UPA chair person..

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 03 Jun 2010 22:39

:mrgreen:
ravit, it's IAF fin flash.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby gogna » 03 Jun 2010 23:31

http://tarmak007.blogspot.com/2010/06/l ... -lane.html

The LCA scoop and a flight down memory lane!

Image
HI-RES
The Times of India Page 1 report on LCA, December 28, 2000, by this blogger. This report was a scoop, then.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Jamal K. Malik » 05 Jun 2010 00:27

Tejas boosts test programme
Each LSP Tejas contains more systems and is more complex than its predecessors. LSP-3, which first flew on 23rd April, was the first Tejas with a multi-mode radar (MMR); and with electronic systems to differentiate friendly from hostile aircraft. LSP-4 has all that and also flare and chaff dispensers to confuse enemy radars and missiles: a Counter Measure Dispensing System.


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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby NRao » 05 Jun 2010 01:14

Jamal K. Malik wrote:Tejas boosts test programme


With the Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) of the Tejas due this year, the flight test programme desperately needs every aircraft it can build. The testing, which requires thousands of individual flight checks, proceeds only as fast as the number of aircraft available for the testing. The Aeronautical Development Agency (ADA), which oversees the Tejas programme, has faced sharp criticism from the Indian Air Force for producing successive LSP aircraft too slowly, thereby protracting the testing and delaying the IOC. LSP-4 will be only the eighth Tejas in the flight test programme, which has done 1,300 sorties, amounting to more than 700 hours of flying.

HAL admits that LSP-3 was overdue by a year, but points out that LSP-4 has followed in just over a month. “I am pushing for LSP-5 to fly by June-end,” says D Balasunder, the managing director of HAL’s Bangalore Complex. “It will have all the systems fitted in LSP-4, and will additionally have night lighting within the cockpit, and an auto-pilot.”

From the runway, technicians move off to the hangars with the newly-inaugurated LSP-4 to ready it for a gruelling regime of hot weather trials. This weekend, LSP-3 and LSP-4 will leave for Nagpur, where, day after day, they will bake in the sun for hours before hurling themselves into the sky to test whether their sophisticated electronics can withstand the Indian summer.

The ADA plans to build LSP-6 and LSP-7 quickly and then hand those two Tejas fighters to the IAF. At its base in Sulur, near Coimbatore, the IAF will operate the aircraft to provide feedback about improvements that are needed to make the Tejas easier to maintain in combat. ADA sources plan to make easy maintainability a key feature of the Tejas Mark- II, the next, improved, version of the Indian fighter.

“The Tejas Mark I is already as good or better as the light fighters in the IAF,” declares ADA chief, PS Subramaniam, referring to the MiG-21 BISON. “The air force should order at least 60 of them.”

But, the IAF is less exuberant. Senior air marshals point out to Business Standard that, if they grant the Tejas IOC at the end of 2010, it will be in the long-term interest of the fighter programme, not because the Tejas has met all its targets. The Tejas does not fly as fast as originally planned; its acceleration is significantly less; and the Tejas has not been tested yet in carrying much of the weaponry it is designed to.


In short, Mark II is the plane to wait for!

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Surya » 05 Jun 2010 03:12

need to retire the senior air marshals faster

a whole generation of young groupies waiting to move up

and they are my generation :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Luxtor » 05 Jun 2010 05:37

shiv wrote:Please folks - lets not argue about "radar more important", "CMDS more important", Engine more important" etc. I have a joke about all the organs of the body claiming to be the most important and how the ax-hole won.


Heheheheheh :rotfl: That's funny. Moral of that joke is, every part is important.

I want to say that no matter how much the LCA is "not ready" and is "deficient" in this or that, we've got to press on with it. Whatever needs fixing, let's fix it. Whatever needs improvement, let's improve it and at some point down the road we shall have a very good fighter. What is the alternative, cancel the program and continue to rely on foreign fighters and other weapon systems forever?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby shiv » 05 Jun 2010 06:34

But, the IAF is less exuberant. Senior air marshals point out to Business Standard that, if they grant the Tejas IOC at the end of 2010, it will be in the long-term interest of the fighter programme, not because the Tejas has met all its targets. The Tejas does not fly as fast as originally planned; its acceleration is significantly less; and the Tejas has not been tested yet in carrying much of the weaponry it is designed to.


The reporting language is less than fair. Because some senior AMs say something the entire IAF stands accused.

However I would just like to point out that when the MiG 21 was cheerfully inducted in 1962 - by the people who taught the current Air Marshals to fly, the MiG 21 used to fly faster than the current bloated baby Bison and had almost no weapons. So what kind of argument is this against the LCA?

It is only because other planes with better brochures are available that Indians are crinkling their noses at Indian stuff. Hmph. Typical. T

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Vivek K » 05 Jun 2010 07:44

Make 250 of Mk1; all deficiencies will be forgotten. Think like the Chinese.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby karan_mc » 05 Jun 2010 07:53

Cross posting from Key ,original post by coldfire2005 at key admin of lca-tejas.org

acceleration is significantly less at "sea level " ,it nothing to do with air frame design ,it because Engine is not flat rate , and Tejas MK-1 will be posted in Sulur first and then to Border air base near Indo-pak border , it has already carried its full weapon load , only testing is left for which LSP-3/4/5 are all geared up

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 05 Jun 2010 08:08

Any idea how much the LSP -3, 4 weigh with all the additional stuff inside it?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby putnanja » 05 Jun 2010 10:09

From Ajai Shukla's blog ...

Tejas LSP-4 tests the skies, boosts test programme

Click on the thumbnails for bigger images

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Austin » 05 Jun 2010 10:45

Tejas 1
Tejas 2
Mig-29K

Looking at the above two pictures of TEJAS and Mig-29K , Tejas has a very menacing look yet at the same time very civilised like SDRE , The Mig-29K though looks menacing but has a goonda type looks.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby shiv » 05 Jun 2010 10:54

putnanja wrote:From Ajai Shukla's blog ...

Tejas LSP-4 tests the skies, boosts test programme

Click on the thumbnails for bigger images


Image


This is a very touching pic. The look of unalloyed joy on those young engineers' faces speaks of deep personal involvement.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Gaurav_S » 05 Jun 2010 11:00

Sorry for being newbie..but what are they doing with those big pipes (?) in 2nd picture? Fuelling the a/c?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Mihaylo » 05 Jun 2010 11:04

Gaurav_S wrote:Sorry for being newbie..but what are they doing with those big pipes (?) in 2nd picture? Fuelling the a/c?


Actually, it is a vacuum hose for vacuuming the insides of the plane. You see on long flights, the pilot.....

Ah forget it..yes it is fuel hose.

-M

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Rahul M » 05 Jun 2010 11:11

Austin wrote:Looking at the above two pictures of TEJAS and Mig-29K , Tejas has a very menacing look yet at the same time very civilised like SDRE , The Mig-29K though looks menacing but has a goonda type looks.

:lol: astute observation !

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby krishnan » 05 Jun 2010 11:21

Gaurav_S wrote:Sorry for being newbie..but what are they doing with those big pipes (?) in 2nd picture? Fuelling the a/c?



Fuel , and also Oxygen i think

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby biswas » 05 Jun 2010 11:33

Austin wrote:Tejas 1
Tejas 2
Mig-29K

Looking at the above two pictures of TEJAS and Mig-29K , Tejas has a very menacing look yet at the same time very civilised like SDRE , The Mig-29K though looks menacing but has a goonda type looks.


To me, the MiG-29K looks like a tall ballet dancer, the Tejas one of those insects that can walk on water.

Nothing menacing about either, the PAKFA on the other hand.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Picklu » 05 Jun 2010 12:30

Austin wrote:Looking at the above two pictures of TEJAS and Mig-29K , Tejas has a very menacing look yet at the same time very civilised like SDRE , The Mig-29K though looks menacing but has a goonda type looks.


Nicely planted IED; now waiting for the next 72 pages of "look"-based analysis :mrgreen:

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jun 2010 13:09

Comparing MK-1 and MK-2, looks like MK-2 will take atleast 2017-18 before its ready. GIven everything else thats goes into the aircraft will be 5th generation, AESA, supercruise etc. I hope its a sleath design since at that time JSF will be becoming the common aircraft in the 2020's and 2030's . I feel the IAF should order 80 MK-1 and for MK-2 , look for a stealth design with some internal weapon bays given the period by which MK-2 will be ready.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Gaur » 05 Jun 2010 13:56

^^
You have been on BRF for some time. This makes your statement quite surprising as you should have read many discussions on this topic. No one can reasonably expect any major changes in mk2 and the changes you desire will make the a/c a completely new a/c. It will no longer remain LCA. Stealth is not just ram coating and internal bay (which in itself will require a completely new design). The shape matters and with so many changes, it will be for all practical purposes be akin to designing a completely new a/c.

Added Later: And what is it with LCA mk2 taking "at least" 2017-1018 to get ready? I guess you are referencing to a news report that was posted some time back here citing a parliamentary report. I think it was established that the time frame given in that report was not of the estimated time of completion of mk2 project but rather the time till which funding is approved as of now. Remember that even mk2 will have to be upgraded at regular interval (as it is with any a/c).

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Jun 2010 14:46

Yes Gaur, but considering the changes required on MK-II, new engine, new airframe with larger wings and higher payload, a new AESA radar to be validated. If these changes are made then in fact LCA- MK2 will effectively be a new aircraft which again need to go through all the processes of MK-1. So this will take time. And we have lots of Mig21 Bis, Bison, Mig-27 , Jags which will be due for retirement in the next 2 decades

Given that fact, why not begin designing an aircraft with Internal weapon bays, appropriate design surface and angles, engine inlet with the Blades hidden etc. Altest I hope the MCA has changed from twin engine to single engine, so that it can provide the nos while the FGFA is the top end.

In the meantime we desperately need the MK-1 and MMRCA to come in nos to replace aldready retired Mig-23's and Mig-21's.

The reason I am worried is that the IAF will need 5 gen aircraft in numbers 10-12 years from now. Does ADA , HAL have enough strength in the design team to work on LCA Mk-1 and begin to get it produced in nos, work on the design and testing of LCA Mk- 2 and at the same time begin to design and start testing MCA.

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby steve » 05 Jun 2010 14:52

"I am pushing for LSP-5 to fly by June-end,” says D Balasunder, the managing director of HAL’s Bangalore Complex.............................will additionally have night lighting within the cockpit, and an auto-pilot.”

About night lighting in Cockpit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=77YENkk-ywE

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby shiv » 05 Jun 2010 14:58

Aditya_V wrote:Yes Gaur, but considering the changes required on MK-II, new engine, new airframe with larger wings and higher payload, a new AESA radar to be validated. If these changes are made then in fact LCA- MK2 will effectively be a new aircraft which again need to go through all the processes of MK-1. So this will take time. And we have lots of Mig21 Bis, Bison, Mig-27 , Jags which will be due for retirement in the next 2 decades

Given that fact, why not begin designing an aircraft with Internal weapon bays, appropriate design surface and angles, engine inlet with the Blades hidden etc. Altest I hope the MCA has changed from twin engine to single engine, so that it can provide the nos while the FGFA is the top end.


May I ask what gives you the impression that a Mark II aircraft requires all the changes you have named? I would be keen on learning of Mark II aircraft anywhere in the world that have required new airframe and new wings so radical that everything has to be retested from scratch. I always thought that is called "New aircraft"

Please think. If Mark II LCA is a new aircraft, why would it be called Mark II?

If MCA is conceived with twin engines why do you hope that it should become single engined? Why do you believe that a totally new design of MCA based on your imagination will give numbers. Surely if your imagination is fertile enough the same numbers can be obtained with twin engine MCA?

I am in total agreement with your comment that MiG 21s and 27s will be retired in the next 2 decades. Sadly the Su 30 MKI too will be due for retirement shortly thereafter. In 4 decades. Maybe we can plan for a Mark II Su 30 with single engine for numbers?

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Re: LCA news and discussion

Postby Singha » 05 Jun 2010 15:15

to me the only major diff between mk1 and mk2 would be a more powerful engine and subsequently slight fattening of the engine bay.
I wont even call it a mk2, more like f-solah "blocks" - the block30, 45 and 52 are all different.
even the F16 engine has likely grown larger from block10 to block60. the chin inlet has "bigmouth" and "smallmouth" versions so that
changed too. avionics, radar and ew upgrades are natural in all fighter a/c.

we need to pull our panties up and select the engine asap and complete the integration. once that is done, the rest will sail pretty
smoothly for IOC in 2015.

in the meantime 100 mk1 should be ordered and made and will get all the mk2 stuff except engine during their MLU after a decade
thats how the chinese and other pros do it and PMO better cracks some skulls together, tell people to get off the brochure dope
and shape up.


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