Indian Army: News & Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 05 Aug 2009 11:22

Those that matter in fighting the actual wars are not in the greying zone. In fact, they are now getting more blacker!


How so? If a battalion is being commanded by a full Colonel, the CO of the battalion would be in his 40s wont he? I can understadn the "fighting" elements getting "blacker" if Lt Cols continued commandiong the battalion and the promotion to Lt Col got quicker..But now, while the latter is happening, the "command" is shifting to the next higher level - so net net the impact is neutralised, isnt it?

Yes, we have discussed, but then I asked you a few questions that you did not answer:

1. Why was Lt Gen Raghavan not having this opinion earlier?

2. How is Siachen different from other areas of Kashmir. If Siachen is redundant to India's national interest, so should others be. If the Pakistani should occupy Siachen and then the adjoining mountain ridge (I forget the name), then it is hop skip and jump to Daulat Beg Olde and then giving the warm embrace of their all weather friend - China. Another piece of territory handed over ever so kindly to the Pakistanis and Chinese and bringing them close to Leh!


Well, I guess its difficult to have (rather act upon) an "opinion" beyond a point when one is in service!

You are referrign to the Saltoro ridge..the conventional wisdom has been a Paki-Chinese linkup for a combined assault on India..Problem, as narrated by the naysayers, is simply the terrain and weather..the sort of terrain and weather in those heights preclude the possibility of any large sized operation to seriously threaten anything..After all the infrastructure building for all htese years, total troop strength on the saltoro is quite modest. (no more than a few hundred)?

For arguments sake, even if there was a link-up on a "vacated" Siachen, what would be the size of the assulting force? Would they be able to advance to Leh without us finding out? Even if they manage to get to Leh, what would be their logistics lines to Leh - lierally hundreds of kilometres from the nearest Paki (and much more from the nearest Chinese) "base"..A bit like Kargil (not the same, but some sort of an analogy)...they moved in a few thousand chaps surreptitiously, but once detected, they simply didnt have the logistcis to sustain the operation in the face of a combined air and land assault..


About the CDS, the last time there was a serious talk about something really fructifying was during Adm Sushil Kumar's time..It was said that he was sounded out to take over as the first CDS..But the Army created a big fuss about a non-Army chap taking over as CDS, and thing died a natural death..(second thoughts, was it Adm Kumar, or someone else? It was the Navy chief for sure)..
Last edited by Rishi on 09 Sep 2009 13:09, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: changed title

nelson
BRFite
Posts: 988
Joined: 02 Mar 2008 21:10

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby nelson » 05 Aug 2009 12:15

creation of more vacancies at higher level of late, do not make the armed forces fighting troops grey haired. it is in fact intended to reverse it.

circa 2000, command of a battalion in the rank of colonel was at service bracket of 20 to 23 years or approx 40 to 43 years age. the proclaimed aim of avs committee is to get it down to a desired 15-16 years of commissioned service ie 36-37 years age.

number of vacancies in command tenure has more or less remained constant. any increase in establishment in comand tenures is therefore not possible. so the remedy found is to keep the command tenures as short as possible and post COs or commanders out to staff and instructional appointments, where the vacancies have been increased.

this way the bottle neck in promoting unit commanders or sidestepping them to staff appointments can be widened. tenures of upto three years as CO in 2000 was expected to come down to two years. this would result in increased vertical mobility, thereby reducing the age and service bracket of CO to desired levels.

like in infantry and artillery the service at which officers pick up rank of colonel has already gone down to 16/17 thereby an average CO's age is about 37 at the time of assuming appointment. however the same may not have happened to other arms/services, but there is a positive change.
with the govt decision to allow substantive colonels at 15 years of service thing will improve further. one question that remains is whether the increase in vacancies is equitably distributed. but, that again is an internal matter of the armed forces.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby RayC » 05 Aug 2009 12:17

somnath wrote:How so? If a battalion is being commanded by a full Colonel, the CO of the battalion would be in his 40s wont he? I can understadn the "fighting" elements getting "blacker" if Lt Cols continued commandiong the battalion and the promotion to Lt Col got quicker..But now, while the latter is happening, the "command" is shifting to the next higher level - so net net the impact is neutralised, isnt it?


No, they won't be in the forties.

A Lt Col is within 15 years and a Colonel is well before the 40s.

Ranks are not material. I always said they are merely 'ghoti, batis'!

Well, I guess its difficult to have (rather act upon) an "opinion" beyond a point when one is in service!


So, courage develops after one is 'wasted out'?

Hardly courage!


You are referrign to the Saltoro ridge..the conventional wisdom has been a Paki-Chinese linkup for a combined assault on India..


No Saltaro ridge is part of Siachen.

I am alluding to the ridge that separates Siachen from the Shyok R that flow to the East of the ridge and next to DBO.

What is a 'large sized force'? In the mountains, just occupying commanding heights with whatever is available is adequate. In Kargil, did any 'large size force' make it difficult for India?

Let me assure you, when the aim is clear, weather, terrain or whatever does not deter.

The issue is not whether Pakistan can advance to Leh after occupying the Siachen. Who cares? Are you aware what is the repercussion of Pakistan ceding Shaksgam to China? Shaksgam - Siachen - DBO and the dragon is sitting pretty to breathe fire!!

If Pakistan can't Leh from the Siachen axis then think again! I will not go into details, but look at DBO and the where the Shyok enters POK in Turtuk. Turtuk is a gateway to Ladakh for the Pakistanis.

Image

For arguments sake, even if there was a link-up on a "vacated" Siachen, what would be the size of the assulting force? Would they be able to advance to Leh without us finding out? Even if they manage to get to Leh, what would be their logistics lines to Leh - lierally hundreds of kilometres from the nearest Paki (and much more from the nearest Chinese) "base"..A bit like Kargil (not the same, but some sort of an analogy)...they moved in a few thousand chaps surreptitiously, but once detected, they simply didnt have the logistcis to sustain the operation in the face of a combined air and land assault..


I have answered you above about the Turtuk axis to assist logistics.

Would losing Siachen be a great honour for India even if Leh is in our hand?

I would be frank, that poring over maps is not an answer. Unless one sees the ground, it is difficult for one to understand.


About the CDS, the last time there was a serious talk about something really fructifying was during Adm Sushil Kumar's time..It was said that he was sounded out to take over as the first CDS..But the Army created a big fuss about a non-Army chap taking over as CDS, and thing died a natural death..(second thoughts, was it Adm Kumar, or someone else? It was the Navy chief for sure)..


I am afraid the politicians, egged by the wastrels, find a strong and unified Armed Forces an imagine replication of Pakistan.

CDS is a dream!

Of course, crumbs will be thrown and to ease off the issue and yet look very credible, but that is it!

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2706
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 05 Aug 2009 12:46

Somnath,

The reason IN personnel reside at Navy Nagar, Colaba – centuries before Colaba became a posh place – was proximity to their ships and their action stations.

Going by your logic of service personnel finding their own accommodation, their salary will suffice for accommodation at Virar/Dombivili/Belapur. In the event hostilities commence and off duty personnel are called to man their ships and stations, given that the first local starts at 5 am and it takes over an hour at the best of times to reach the docks, you can imagine the time required for the ship to come into action because of the commute time.

IN personnel similarly reside close to their ships at non-posh places like Okha, Port Blair, Karwar, among others. I doubt whether your bank would dare open branches at these places to serve people staying there, however these people gladly take a posting there to serve you.

Similarly, railways and other public utility personnel reside close to their places of work for obvious reasons. I recollect during the July 2006 bomb blasts – railway personnel worked non stop for 36 hours checking and cross checking the entire infrastructure to ensure smooth service and public safety. For that matter, are you even aware of the civil, structural and electrical engineering that goes into the Mumbai railway system? Do you know railway engineers work nights almost every day to ensure smooth service during daytime. I haven’t seen a bank work for any purposes other than its profits.

As a MBA and ex investment banker myself, I find it astounding that banks use public deposits (called retail liabilities in bank-speak) to create complex financial instruments derived from assets with proven questionable value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Income_No_Asset), then lose the money and finally demand the govt to bail out with taxpayer’s money the same people who frittered depositor's money in the first place.

A soldier is court martialled – BY THEIR OWN - for delinquency of duty or even an error of judgment (INS Prahaar incident). How many bankers are prosecuted – BY THEIR OWN – for losing depositor’s money by being criminally negligent?

You wake at 8 am to work for YOUR bank’s and YOUR personal profit. A sailor wakes up at 5 am to work for YOUR benefit.

When in the Navy, I was given a flat at Navy Nagar, Colaba and when at ICICI Bank, BKC, I was given a flat at company buildings at Amboli, Andheri (West). My investment banker profile was leisure vis-à-vis my profile in the Navy – that required 24x7 alertness, dexterity, strength and most importantly, stamina.

Yet, whenever the bank gives you a fringe benefit, you feel its your birthright and you deserve it and whenever the govt gives public servants a facility to enable them work better, you hold a grudge.

somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby somnath » 05 Aug 2009 12:57


Ask Gen Raghavan! :) He wrote a full book on it after all..But I remember a quote from another ex soldier, (cant remember the name, but he was described as the most decorated officer in the IA), who said " I would vacate Siachen on one condition, that Pakistan agrees to maintain a brigade permanently there"!!


He can write few more books.

That is immaterial. Indeed, with the paltry pension, he should write some more so that he can live fine.

I am afraid, which ever 'ex soldier' that you have conjured for the sake of argument could not be that stupid to make such a claim. Just check Raghavan's decoration. That will be adequate. Even Raghavan will blush if this is attributed to him.

I have explained how Siachen cannot be vacated. I will be another monumental blunder as JLN did when he recalled Indian forces linking Kashmir with Poonch or for the matter, moving on to Muzzafarabd. As stupid as allowing Pakistanis to claim that India is interfering in Baluchistan!

Still dont understand how any large sized operation can be launched...As it is today, after so many years of experience and a defined operational area, logistics is a continuous challenge in Siachen..Say the Pakis started from ground zero, the Saltoro ridge now vacated completely..How much time would they take to set up some sort of a bridgehead there? From there what kind of logistic lines can they build along the Nubra valley and Shyok onto Turtuk and Leh? You mentioned logistics along the Shyok river - but is that river a navigable one for even "simple" logistics? From what I have read, it isnt...In the kind of weather that exists, can these invading troops be reliably air maintained? Its a huge challenge even for us in static security mode, for a moving invesding column, I guess it would be many times more difficcult..What size of Chinese troops can "link up" and what would be their logistic train? Above all, how much time will that take? What type of air cover will the Pakis/Chinese be able to have if the Indians started using the AF?

circa 2000, command of a battalion in the rank of colonel was at service bracket of 20 to 23 years or approx 40 to 43 years age. the proclaimed aim of avs committee is to get it down to a desired 15-16 years of commissioned service ie 36-37 years age.


The world is moving!


If it works out according to what you and Nelson are saying, I guess yes..But where do all the senior guys out of command tenures go? How many staff officers do you need? I reckon it would be a bit like the police, where proliferation of DGPs has meant that there is now a DGP (housing), a DGP (home guard), DGP (intel) and myriad other functions that can be taken care of at much lower ranks..A certain well known international bank (what the heck, its Citi! :wink: ) used to have a plethora of Vice Presidents, so much so that in the late '90s, there was a VP (packaging), or some such sort, whose job was to look afeter courier services!! Its still the same, but the VP rank in Citi has been "degraded" quite a bit and the senior ranks are designated differently (Assoc Director, Director, Exec Dir etc)...


You right!

There may come a time when there will be a DG Police and even a Secretary amongst the IAS as Director, Toilets!

doesnt it cause HR problems in (say) a squadron, with 2 or 3 Wing Cos, and one of them being the CO? Given the general "rank consciousness" in the public sector, doesnt it become awkward all the time?


I am not aware of the IAF.

somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby somnath » 05 Aug 2009 13:33

Tsarkar,

I wasnt making a specific point on the Navy..If you read the post, I was referrign to the general public sector mentality on use and misuse of govt perks (I had also given the example of the civvie housing in Napean Sea road)...

In fact what I was referring to was that all govt personnel should be asked to get their own acco, especially in the larger cities (family postings if you will)..that is the only way public servants will realise how the "public" really lives and copes with the Indian reality...So there was no "picking" on the Navy or the services..

the point of long commute time to me is a red herring..Lots of organisations work 24/7 involving thousands of people having to commute from far off, dont see why services (as well as the civvie public sector and govt) cant organise the same..the point of a conflict breaking out "suddenly" and off duty personnel having to be summoned is another red herring..Conflicts never break out "suddenly" at the toss of a coin, there are threat levels and the preparation is always commensurate with that..And suddent, extraordinary incidents would only call for extraordinary measures...which all organisations would have a DR plan for..When 26/11 happened, all the banks had to shut their offices in that area for 3 days...But all of them continued full operations, btoh in India as well as internationally from DR sites, and employees travelled to those sites to continue..I am sure the services would have a ebtter system..

You wake at 8 am to work for YOUR bank’s and YOUR personal profit. A sailor wakes up at 5 am to work for YOUR benefit.


sorry, but this point is absolute poppycock..A vast majority of people who join the services do so as a career, not for some fuzzy "love of the nation and its people"...As do everyone else who is a banker, a trader or a plumber..(BTW, in case office starts @ 8, you got to get up much earlier for you to catch the bandra local! :wink:)

I wouldnt get into a bank-v/s-services conversation - thats not the point here..though for someone who has been a banker, your understanding of the demands of banking and its operations is extraordinarily limited...(incl the Andheri apartments of ICICI, which very few managers take up anymore :wink: - last I knew ICICI was selling the property off)..

BTW When Sharad Pawar was the Defence Minister, there was a proposal to commercially exploit the land that all three arms of the services have currently (esp the Army)...The idea was to use the funds for bettering the infrastructure in the services - it fell off like many other such ideas..

somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby somnath » 05 Aug 2009 13:34

My post has been deleted! and someone else's (I think RayC's) post attributed to me! :)

nelson
BRFite
Posts: 988
Joined: 02 Mar 2008 21:10

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby nelson » 05 Aug 2009 13:58

as far as this commuting business goes, let us under stand why long commutes will not work for units/ships on war establishment.
here an example of indian army officer with his avg routine...

officer goes for physical training in the morning and gets back to mess/residence for b.fast and change

then he goes for training area/ office and gets back for lunch and change

then he attends the mandatory games parade with troops, time permitting some individual sport and back to change.

in more cases than one he goes back to dinner nite or dining in/out (parade) or some social commitment (which is not condsdered optional).

now commuting four times a day is next to impossible, hence the need to colocate place of living, training and business(office).

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2706
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 05 Aug 2009 14:37

Thanks for your mature comments, Somnath. I am highlighting certain pearls of wisdom below.

"conflicts never break out "suddenly" at the toss of a coin"

Yeah, Pearl Harbour or 26/11 or the Parliament Attack and Op Parakram.

"When 26/11 happened, all the banks had to shut their offices in that area for 3 days"

Navy doesnt have the luxury of shutting its offices for three days. I am sure the bankers & HLL people extracted by MARCOS at the Taj would have appreciated the Navy shutting down for three days.

"But all of them continued full operations, btoh in India as well as internationally from DR sites"

Again, Navy doesnt have the option of "leaving the post". By your logic, during 26/11/ Navy should have "continued full operations" from Cochin, or maybe "internationally from" New York after shutting down Mumbai operations.

"A vast majority of people who join the services do so as a career, not for some fuzzy "love of the nation and its people""

When the salt water corrodes your skin and gives red splotches on the face and when the tropical ocean sun fries your skin, yet you keep watch, then its your values that keep you going rather than a career. In the older ship engine rooms, sailors often fainted because of the heat and the doctor had a full time job. I have a yacht in Mumbai. Do join me for a sail sometime in mild Autumn September and I'll give you a feel of the sea and noonday sun for three hours. Then maybe you can compare your experience with people who've spent their lives fighting at sea.

"your understanding of the demands of banking and its operations is extraordinarily limited"

How did you arrive at that conclusion? Can you disprove whatever i have written? Do check my credentials with Swati Datye, DGM, HR at ICICI Bank who paid me 21 lakhs in 2003. And please share your credentials, so that we can rate your education and experience levels vis-a-vis mine. I'm calling your bluff right here right now. Back your words with with your credentials.

"incl the Andheri apartments of ICICI, which very few managers take up anymore - last I knew ICICI was selling the property off"

How is that relevant to the discussion? Relevant point is it was a desirable perk in my time coveted by Assistant Vice Presidents.

ICICI, if selling, was maybe because P Chidambaram imposed Fringe Benefit Tax in 2005. ICICI gifted a Fiat Palio in 2003 and a Honda Civic in 2007 to select managers that should, very rightfully, have been taxed.

Relevant point is when a service guy gets canteen rations (minus dealer margins and taxes on the deal margins - not subsidized in any way, AFAIK), you cry foul and when the bank gifts you a Palio, its your birthright.

Lastly, the scriptures say "Veera Bhogya Vasundhara". So do crib and cringe and whine to your heart's content because you'll never get membership to enjoy the privileges at US Club or IMSC because you dont go through the grind. And because you are denied those privileges - because you dont deserve them - you want them scrapped. Your words reek of classic grapes are sour syndrome.

Point I'm conveying here is that certain privileges are provided to enable suitable discharge of duties. I dont deny misuse - that should be - and is quite often disciplined - however Somnath's comments reflect his sour grapes mentality.
Last edited by tsarkar on 05 Aug 2009 15:26, edited 2 times in total.

Tanaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3241
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Tanaji » 05 Aug 2009 14:58

Ah, Mr. somnath is back to his usual tricks again...

It has always been a wet dream of the bankers and builders to get their grubby paws on the prime real estate in Navy Nagar in Colaba, where even a relatively small plot will run into hundreds of crores of rupees. Dear somnath is just testing the waters me thinks as a banker to see if money can be made.

I dont blame him for his comments that navy personnel should commute from Mira Road, Bhayander etc (since realistically thats the only place where they would be able to afford a flat). Being a banker, he probably has never set foot inside a Virar fast in peak hours. Given the requirements of a naval job, where being punctual is a matter of life and death and not a "nice to have for chai biscoot session" that babus engage in, one wonders how a nval personnel is to be guaranteed on time every day given the vagaries of Mumbai's suburban network. Also, what happens during the rainy season when the train/road network is invariably thrown out of gear for 2 months of the year? I suppose the Navy should stop working then?

Also what happens when in an emergency personnel are required to be on base... where do they stay then?

Adrija
BRFite
Posts: 285
Joined: 13 Mar 2007 19:42

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Adrija » 05 Aug 2009 15:19

Second that- classic banker mentality

I know of many Naval officers newly posted in Mumbai and living in civvy acco in Andheri or further down with relatives, who left home at 5 am(!) in order to make the daily drill

somnath
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3416
Joined: 29 Jan 2003 12:31
Location: Singapore

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby somnath » 05 Aug 2009 15:50

^^^ Unfortunately, any questioning quickly degenerates into personal motive imputation by some people..and the point was much larger than one example that gets picked up..Merrily the fact that the overall point was about the public sector in general also gets ignored..And irrelvant comments (membership of clubs was it, or canteen!!??) are attributed..

And then personal motivations start getting attached (like sour grapes!! BTW for what? People spend years in the Navy and then leave to attempt to do what I do, and today B-schools devise "special" courses for them!!Guys from my school who joined the NDA were way down the pecking order in grades - no disrespect to them, but no reason to have sour rapes either :twisted: )

Tsarkar, I have zero reason to divulge any of my details on an open forum to you, and its not a point of discussion in any case..Ditto for whatever you did or do in ICICI (or for that matter how much you got paid)...Suffice to say that AVP is hardly senior enough for me to be intimidated by - I used to hire people regularly from ICICI, mostly above that grade! :wink:

about why I said
your understanding of the demands of banking and its operations is extraordinarily limited


Reasons were what you said earlier:

As a MBA and ex investment banker myself, I find it astounding that banks use public deposits (called retail liabilities in bank-speak) to create complex financial instruments derived from assets with proven questionable value (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Income_No_Asset), then lose the money and finally demand the govt to bail out with taxpayer’s money the same people who frittered depositor's money in the first place.


Complex financial instruments are not created out of retail liabilities, but out of retail (as well as commercial) assets, the "questionable value" was not with the assets but with the packaging of it and the ratings thereof..Plus, most of the banks that lost money for "depositors" did not use retail deposits, they used wholesale (instituional deposits) - Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros..The big reason for the bailouts was not to protect retail depositors (that's easy to do with a sort of retail depo g'tee that a lot of govts now have), but to prevent systemic collapse of the economic system (the too big to fail syndrome)...If protecting retail depositors was the primary objective, there was no reason to bail out Goldman Sacchs or Morgan Stanley...things are much more complex than simple explanations..

How many bankers are prosecuted – BY THEIR OWN – for losing depositor’s money by being criminally negligent?


A lot of them (and not just today - remember Henry Blodget of ML? 2000 dot com crash?) Most CEOs and top brass of the international banks are gone..In many countries managers are facing court cases, criminal ones...

My investment banker profile was leisure vis-à-vis my profile in the Navy – that required 24x7 alertness, dexterity, strength and most importantly, stamina


Most people in the relevant units (including ICICI) work 15 hour workdays and then do 2 hour commutes in Mumbai - so if your schedule was leisurely it was just yours..

You know all this is irrelvant to the topic that I was trying to focus on - which is whether there are structural issues that need to be discussed about the services...I mentioend the AV Singh report as one, the point on perks was simply an extension of the discussion of sahayaks, and my point was that the creation of so many prks is what is structurally wrong in the entire govt sector..Read the full message, not selectively - and keep the personal bits out - thats not relevant.

@ Tanaji, I am not a real estate agent :wink:
Last edited by somnath on 05 Aug 2009 16:31, edited 3 times in total.

Rishi
Forum Moderator
Posts: 736
Joined: 29 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: Maximum City

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Rishi » 05 Aug 2009 16:00

Off topic alert.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2706
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 05 Aug 2009 16:58

Rishi & Admins, with your permission, would like to respond to this braggart, who made irresponsible claims in the first place –

1. “Vast majority of people who join the services do so as a career, not for some fuzzy "love of the nation and its people””
2. “Conflicts never break out "suddenly" at the toss of a coin”
3. Government & Service personnel don’t require housing close to bases
4. "Guys from my school who joined the NDA were way down the pecking order in grades"

Somnath,
You make absurd claims, abuse certain careers and when people respond, wink and brag how you hire people above them.

“People spend years in the Navy and then leave to attempt to do what I do!!”
I excelled in both my military and civilian careers, something that YOU probably couldn’t even attempt.

After 20 years in the Executive Cadre, I left because I was offered a staff job in Delhi that I wasn’t keen on. Thereafter, I focused my energies in the civilian life. I was an AVP in 2003. Today I work for the world’s largest enterprise solution company with a leadership position in its EMEA operations. You don’t have the balls to let everyone know what you do, so wink and brag how you hire people above me.

I explained the sub prime issue briefly earlier to PUNCTURE YOUR CLAIMS THAT BANKS ARE SO MUCH BETTER THAN SERVICES. You rhetorically brand it as my lack of knowledge without a shred of evidence.

To explain, a Midwestern bank creates a questionable asset by lending to creditors with poor credit record and credentials. The high default risk is compensated by high interest rates. This asset is packaged and the instrument is sold to an institutional investor (Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros) using the carrot of high interest rates and cash flows. These wholesale institutions (Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros) further package and sell the instrument to retail institution like Citibank, ICICI, that use retail deposits to fund purchases of those instruments. Now the smart asses at Bear Stearns, Lehman Bros, Citibank and ICICI know fully well that the underlying asset is junk, yet in the greed of high interest rates, cash flow and profits, invest in such junk instruments. ICICI Bank recovers its losses by charging high rates and fees from its customer base.

http://www.livemint.com/2008/03/0500041 ... I-Ban.html

These greedy people they project a fake image why they’re the “pillars of economy” and the government should fund them. Fact is nothing will happen if they’re allowed to collapse over their bad judgment and decisions. In the Nordic countries, in the last century, the government simply took over banks after firing incompetent management that made poor decisions.

http://books.google.co.in/books?id=rNSe ... t&resnum=1

http://www.forbes.com/2009/02/11/geithn ... ubini.html

I have written nothing wrong here that you casually disparage. And you haven’t provided a shred of evidence why you think what these banker did were right.

Now you bloody well explain why you think –
1. “Vast majority of people who join the services do so as a career, not for some fuzzy "love of the nation and its people””
2. Conflicts never break out "suddenly" at the toss of a coin
3. Service personnel don’t require housing close to bases

BTW my offer to take you sailing remains. I have reciprocal club membership with the Republic of Singapore Yacht Club, so I’ll be glad to come out there to measure the stuff you’re made of, in any part of the world.
Last edited by tsarkar on 05 Aug 2009 18:33, edited 1 time in total.

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1539
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Aug 2009 17:33

http://www.hindustantimes.com/StoryPage ... army+glory


Young MPs gun for territorial army glory

Rahul Singh, Hindustan Times
Email Author
August 05, 2009

Twenty-two sitting British MPs and sons of 85 parliamentarians were killed in the First World War. Two British PMs, Herbert Henry Asquith and Andrew Bonar Law, lost their sons in the same war.

Former US Presidents Richard Nixon, Lyndon Johnson and Ronald Reagan were all World War II veterans.

Indian politicians, in contrast, have never had a military tradition. But a new breed of MPs intends to transform the stereotypical image of India’s netas, if only symbolically. Ushering in an age of ‘soldier-leaders’, six MPs are itching to shed their starched white pyjama-kurtas for olive green battle fatigues.
http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/images/army.jpg
The trend of joining territorial army received a strong boost in September 2008 when former Indian fast bowler Kapil Dev joined the voluntary service as a lieutenant colonel. (Vipin Kumar / HT file)

They want to join the Territorial Army (TA), a voluntary, part-time citizen’s army modelled on the lines of the UK territorial army.

“I grew up dreaming of becoming a soldier. You could see me in battle fatigues next year,” said Congress MP Deepender Hooda, 31, after attending a presentation on TA for MPs in the South Block on Tuesday.

An initiative to enhance the brand appeal of the reserve force by Minister of State for Defence Pallam Raju, 47, more than 30 MPs across the political spectrum showed up at the Defence Ministry to figure out what it takes to be a soldier. Hooda and fellow Congress MP Naveen Jindal, 39, sought flexibility in the training schedule to encourage young guns to experience the pride of soldiering.

TA soldiers have taken part in all post-Independence wars, including Kargil. Jindal said, “I am very keen…if they reduce the training period I will join up.” The Defence Ministry is working on a proposal to grant concessions to MPs and specialists from other fields to bring them within the TA’s fold.

Major General KVS Lalhotra, who heads the TA, said, “We are sending a proposal to the Defence Ministry to create a special TA cadre.” Their annual training period is likely to be reduced from two months to 14 days. Pre-commission training will also be condensed.

The country’s youngest MP, Hamdullah Sayeed, 26, is looking forward to donning stars on his shoulder epaulets. “I went to an air force school. Joining the TA will be a natural progression.” Only males aged between 18 and 42 can join the TA. That clause put a damper on the career aspirations of Congress MP Ninong Ering, 53.

Also present were Minister of State for Water Resources Vincent Pala (41), SP’s Akhilesh Yadav (36), BJD’s Jay Panda (45), Congress’ Nilesh Rane (27), Independent member Rajeev Chandrashekhar (45), BJD’s Kalikesh Singh Deo, 34 and RJD’s Jayant Chaudhary (30).


Just another bunch joining up, not for love of the nation, or glory of the uniform, but for the salary. /Sarcasm off.

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1539
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Aug 2009 17:37

somnath wrote:^^^ Unfortunately, any questioning quickly degenerates into personal motive imputation by some people..and the point was much larger than one example that gets picked up..Merrily the fact that the overall point was about the public sector in general also gets ignored..And irrelvant comments (membership of clubs was it, or canteen!!??) are attributed..

And then personal motivations start getting attached (like sour grapes!! BTW for what? People spend years in the Navy and then leave to attempt to do what I do, and today B-schools devise "special" courses for them!!Guys from my school who joined the NDA were way down the pecking order in grades - no disrespect to them, but no reason to have sour rapes either :twisted: )

Tsarkar, I have zero reason to divulge any of my details on an open forum to you, and its not a point of discussion in any case..Ditto for whatever you did or do in ICICI (or for that matter how much you got paid)...Suffice to say that AVP is hardly senior enough for me to be intimidated by - I used to hire people regularly from ICICI, mostly above that grade! :wink:



Ho ho, looks like someone's losing it. whiny tantrums followed by boasting about "my wallet is bigger than yours" and "I hire people above AVP grade" are generally signs that someone's had an ego fart, after the ego balloon was pricked. You hire big time chaps? Good for you. So youre an executive search agent?

I guess people like this really cannot understand why people join govt service, and the armed forces in particular. He'd think he was a bigger man than a secretary to the government of India, because his taxi stand made 2 lakh rupees more per year than our friend the secy.

Haha.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5038
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Surya » 05 Aug 2009 17:45

ASP, Sanku

Please don't count me on Somnaths side :((


I am only anti gunner chief (till the 155s come) but absolutely pro Navy Nagar :-o

Only a callous type would wish Navy personnel to travel the horrors of commute in the trains and expect them to function with great efficiency for the rest of the day - :shock:

Tanaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3241
Joined: 21 Jun 2000 11:31

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Tanaji » 05 Aug 2009 18:27

You know all this is irrelvant to the topic that I was trying to focus on - which is whether there are structural issues that need to be discussed about the services...I mentioend the AV Singh report as one, the point on perks was simply an extension of the discussion of sahayaks, and my point was that the creation of so many prks is what is structurally wrong in the entire govt sector..Read the full message, not selectively


From past experience, you are well aware what comments result in a flame fest and which ones are not to be thrown about lightly. This has been observed in the earlier version of this thread, and on the strat forum as well. Either you are very cavalier in your choice of words or you have another motive...

Why do I keep thinking that this is a part of some hair brained conspiracy (actually from their perspective its quite brilliant) by the bankers and babus where the babus get to reduce expenditure at the cost of the services and the bankers get to utilize the thousands of crores of prime real estate that the services currently own? Note that by cutting perks of everyone, the babus themselves dont get affected much since their "other income streams" which are more significant still remain open, but the Services get hit the most. The bankers, of course stand to gain stupendously.

I am willing to bet that soon there will be a notification where a babu committee will be set up to look into income generation by divesting "excess land". And surprise, surprise, the Services will be the first one that will be looked at for this.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby RayC » 05 Aug 2009 18:47

somnath wrote:My post has been deleted! and someone else's (I think RayC's) post attributed to me! :)


I think it was my fault.

I apologise.

Isn't it great that my post appears as yours?

At least it make you appear mainstream and not have so many chaps riled up? ;) :)

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1539
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Aug 2009 21:20

Surya, relax. I know that you mean well. And I agree with a lot of what youre saying.

@ALL:
Somnaths line of argument appears to be that whenever anything is said about the pay commission anomalies/civil service that he doesnt like, he starts trolling about with a lot of paragraph space, but no substance or even logic whatsoever.

Furthermore, when his 'assertions' are questioned, he seems to grow enraged and presents us with prize tantrums which, distilled, come to: "STUPID MILITARY PERSONS!!!! I GOT MORE MARKS THAN YOU IN SCHOOL!! I MAKE SO MUCH MONEY!!! YOU ALL WANT TO ATTEMPT TO BECOME ME!!! HOW DARE YOU SAY ANYTHING TO ME!!!" (Capitalised by me, but these are all original somnath gems! :rotfl: )

We must take these infantile tantrums with a pinch of salt. After all, we have only his word for it, that any of even these things he says are true. His ego seems to need propping up, via the media of self aggrandization on internet fora, which leads me to believe that he only wishes most of his BS were true.

Oh well. Cuique suum.

And now, let us move on.

ASPuar
BRFite
Posts: 1539
Joined: 07 Feb 2001 12:31
Location: Republic of India

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Aug 2009 21:25

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 858976.cms

Army kills 9 militants in J&K


PTI 5 August 2009, 03:15pm IST

SRINAGAR: Nine militants, including a top Hizbul Mujahideen commander, were killed in six encounters in Jammu and Kashmir, a defence spokesman
said on Wednesday.

Five infiltrating militants were among seven ultras killed in four separate encounters with security forces in Kashmir valley, while a self-styled section commander of Hizbul Mujahideen and an infiltrator were killed in Jammu region since last evening, the spokesman said.

The slain militant commander identified as Noor Mohammed alias Mansoor was gunned down in a gunbattle in Doda district. An AK 47 rifle and three magazines were recovered from the slain militant.

Another militant was killed by the army during an infiltration bid across the LoC in the Poonch sector.

In the valley, a group of heavily-armed militants from across the border sneaked into Tangdhar, 130 kms from here, in the wee hours, but army troops confronted them and in the ensuing firefight, which is still continuing, three militants were killed, a defence spokesman said.

He said the operation was still going on.

The spokesman said two more militants were killed in an ongoing gunbattle between ultras and security forces at Furkhan near Trehgam, 150 kms from here on Wednesday morning.

He said two infiltrators were killed in Keran sector, 140 kms from here in Kupwara on Tuesday evening.

Troops also launched a search operation in Didan Gali in Pirpanjal sector of South Kashmir on Wednesday morning.

As the troops were engaged in combing operation, militants hiding there opened fire, the spokesman said adding the troops retaliated. The gunbattle was going on but there were no reports of any casualty so far.

Defence sources said militant commanders in Pakistan occupied Kashmir (PoK) are "desperate" to push militant groups into the valley to foment trouble in the valley where the level of violence has come down in the recent past.

They said engagement of army troops in as many as five places in the valley indicated that infiltrators are waiting in the wings to cross over into India taking advantage of the weather conditions.

The peaks along the LoC get blocked due to snow and infiltration becomes almost impossible during winter months.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby RayC » 05 Aug 2009 22:16

I find Somnath’s idea of sending officers all around down to find their housing and having found it, settling down, most exciting from the requirement of being egalitarian and socially conscious!

I am sure such officer will not find it difficult to reach the unit for PT at 0600 hours and then go back for bath and breakfast and be back in the unit by 0730 hours. And so on!

Mr Somnath, you claimed that you have stayed in Bombay. Could you give the driving time for an officer living in Ghatkopar (relatively cheaper rates than Colaba) and reaching his unit in Colaba in time, through the Bombay traffic? Please understand that reaching late warrants an offence under the Army Act, apart from being a bad example for troops.

Now, let us extend the argument a little bit yonder. If troops are also allowed to living in accommodation around town, what would be the situation then? It will after all release prime real estate for builders to make money on and pass on to the powers that be.

In case of an emergency, how do we muster the officers and troops?

Kakkaji
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3223
Joined: 23 Oct 2002 11:31

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Kakkaji » 06 Aug 2009 06:44

Is somnath = sugriva? :idea:

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12530
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Sanku » 06 Aug 2009 11:09

Why do we have to put up with the likes of Somnath?

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby RayC » 06 Aug 2009 11:16

Sanku wrote:Why do we have to put up with the likes of Somnath?


Because it takes all types to make the world.

Or do you prefer we are all echoes of each other.

I say demolish the arguments, rather than get frustrated.

If the Moderators were to be frustrated, then there would be many who would get wiped out of this forum!

You wouldn't believe the frustrations Moderators have to go through! And let me tell you, we discuss each case and then take a decision. Very democratic, if you ask me.

Let me also assure you that in my interaction with the Moderators, I can with all honesty state that there are real mature chaps there and highly educated too!

And some are wizards at the software game. Many with double identities have been discovered and are being sorted out!

You all are in safe hands!

Yet, we survive as you all survive!

Cheer up and get cracking!

rkirankr
BRFite
Posts: 773
Joined: 17 Apr 2009 11:05

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby rkirankr » 06 Aug 2009 13:16

Somnath wrote
Vast majority of people who join the services do so as a career, not for some fuzzy "love of the nation and its people”


Oh I would not make such generalised statements. When I went to SSB , I met a guy who had come there , he was a topper in his batch and was working in a software firm in Mumbai.
Another guy who did not make it through the SSB was crying at the Railway station even though he had a good job in a multinational.
Also with so much of opportunities existing today, the "vast majority" looking for only career prospects may not even consider the services. Ok granted that there are all kinds of people , but do not make statements which you will not be able to substantiate.
Last edited by rkirankr on 06 Aug 2009 13:34, edited 1 time in total.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2706
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby tsarkar » 06 Aug 2009 13:19

There were a couple of points I forgot to respond earlier. While the issue is closed, I thought it was still relevant to clarify.

“Most people in the relevant units (including ICICI) work 15 hour workdays and then do 2 hour commutes in Mumbai - so if your schedule was leisurely it was just yours..”

By “leisurely”, I meant working in an AC office, on a comfy chair, at a desk using a laptop, with coffee and lunch breaks and physically stressing nothing more than your fingers on the spreadsheet and ears on the phone.

Standing on 3000 tonnes of hot metal under the tropical sun, with the salt water stinging your eyes, keeping watch, operating a complex weapon system, straining your every senses for that Exocet or Harpoon or F-17 torpedo or in a Gemini inflatable on a VBSS mission with an RPG pointed at you or engaging a bunch or Kalashnikov armed irregulars . . . well, yes, working in a bank is definitely “leisurely”

“Guys from my school who joined the NDA were way down the pecking order in grades”

Guys from your school who joined banks being WAY UP the pecking order in grades were soiling their pants under tables at the Taj when Kasab and co came visiting until guys from your school who joined the NDA WAY DOWN the pecking order in grades put their lives in the line of fire to extract the ones with soiled trousers and high grades.

Anyways, your grades gave us all a good laugh and a good glimpse into your mentality. I failed Std 8th in Maths, if that gives you any solace.

rkirankr
BRFite
Posts: 773
Joined: 17 Apr 2009 11:05

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby rkirankr » 06 Aug 2009 13:36

Guys from your school who joined banks being WAY UP the pecking order in grades were soiling their pants under tables at the Taj when Kasab and co came visiting until guys from your school who joined the NDA WAY DOWN the pecking order in grades put their lives in the line of fire to extract the ones with soiled trousers and high grades.
:mrgreen: :twisted: :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12530
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Sanku » 06 Aug 2009 13:43

RayC wrote:
Sanku wrote:Why do we have to put up with the likes of Somnath?


Because it takes all types to make the world.


You get me wrong, I dont say that Somnath should be kept at an arms length because of his views, but because (IMVHO) he is here to troll. I for one have done what I have never done with any other poster than RM, taken to completely omit his posts. I think he is the death for any remotely intelligent and informed discussion.

I some time do have violent difference in PoV with others on matters (say Narayanan, Suyra, as well as with you sometimes) but I will never skip those post deliberately never the less.

Somnath just takes any discussion into patal.

pmund
BRFite
Posts: 166
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 00:49
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby pmund » 06 Aug 2009 18:11

THIS IS TO SOMNATH... I dont know how many NDA guys u know. Many of the chaps I trained with were no pushovers in academics, and certainly not 'down the pecking order'. At least two had got thru IIT-JEE and chose to join NDA. A close friend quit the Orissa JEE (he was a XIIth topper) to join NDA. They knew their priorities. They put country over self. Not self over everything else, like some corporate dalals do. I dont know if u ever had the guts to go thru an SSB test. Ppl like u wouldnt make the Services cut anway. Missing breakfast wud be too tough for u. Besides, do u have any idea how much studying one has to do in NDA??? Try this: Computer science, Eng two papers, maths two papers, Phy, Chem, Economics, Hist, Sociology, Geog, Pol Science, Service subjects, foreign language and Workshop (for carpentry, tool making etc). Try doing that along with 5 hrs of PT, 1 hr of weapons trg, endless ragda in sqn, washing and ironing ur clothes, polishing shoes, 90 min of study period, night PT and shaving, brushing and shitting. Try that for a day. And, by the way, u need to score 50% to pass in each subject along with a few dozen push-ups, ropes, a few dozen toe touches, cross country, swimming, pull-ups, sit-ups and what not. Try that for a day

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby RayC » 06 Aug 2009 18:18

Somnath,

Apparently you are becoming the author of 'How NOT to Influence People and Lose Friends'.

The traffic lights are yellow and may soon change to red!

Watch the road!

Sid
BRFite
Posts: 1634
Joined: 19 Mar 2006 13:26

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Sid » 06 Aug 2009 18:54

Well he picked up a wrong argument to malign NDA chaps. Even guys from my class who joined NDA had impeccable records in science. Many of the folks who took techie stream (Signals) in forces are more through and experienced in their fields as compared to their counterparts in civic bodies. Same goes for my dad, a topper in Electronics who went on to join forces.

Being in forces needs a selfless heart, not a selfish brain. That's all i can say :)

atreya
BRFite
Posts: 543
Joined: 11 Dec 2008 16:33

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby atreya » 06 Aug 2009 19:04

pmund wrote:THIS IS TO SOMNATH... I dont know how many NDA guys u know. Many of the chaps I trained with were no pushovers in academics, and certainly not 'down the pecking order'. At least two had got thru IIT-JEE and chose to join NDA. A close friend quit the Orissa JEE (he was a XIIth topper) to join NDA. They knew their priorities. They put country over self. Not self over everything else, like some corporate dalals do. I dont know if u ever had the guts to go thru an SSB test. Ppl like u wouldnt make the Services cut anway. Missing breakfast wud be too tough for u. Besides, do u have any idea how much studying one has to do in NDA??? Try this: Computer science, Eng two papers, maths two papers, Phy, Chem, Economics, Hist, Sociology, Geog, Pol Science, Service subjects, foreign language and Workshop (for carpentry, tool making etc). Try doing that along with 5 hrs of PT, 1 hr of weapons trg, endless ragda in sqn, washing and ironing ur clothes, polishing shoes, 90 min of study period, night PT and shaving, brushing and shitting. Try that for a day. And, by the way, u need to score 50% to pass in each subject along with a few dozen push-ups, ropes, a few dozen toe touches, cross country, swimming, pull-ups, sit-ups and what not. Try that for a day


Pmund. I agree with you completely. Army people are extremely hard-working, there's no doubt in that. Also, I do not agree with Somnath's statement that people join Army only for a career.
However, I want to tell you that 1 or 2 things in your post rankled me a bit.

"Not self over everything else, like some corporate dalals do."

Now, I am not saying that people working in the corporate sector do it "for the country" or are nationalistic. Nor am I questioning the fact that Army men's lifestyle is a 100 times more rigorous than that of a guy working in the Pvt sector. BUT, that doesn't mean that pvt sector people are doing nothing all day. They re working very hard too. They face their own stresses, their own problems. if private sector jobs were SO easy (as you make them out to be), then any retired Army soldier would be able to join pvt company and work without a hitch. Is it really so? I don't think so.
Just remember. The country won't run if all pvt companies shut down, and everyone queues up to join the Army.
PS: Software professionals, much maligned, are face no less stress. These days, its common to say "everyone is becoming an IT engineer"...but what runs without computers these days?

I have a deep respect for all armed forces, and I salute to their bravery. I would be the last person to question their integrity. But that doesnt mean that you belittle all other careers

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 10779
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Aditya_V » 06 Aug 2009 19:17

Atreya-> I think the belittling other careers was overdone but Somnath I think crossed the line when he said navy personal should look for thier own accomodation on thier salary and should not be provided accomodation near the Harbour

Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3037
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Jagan » 06 Aug 2009 19:29

my two np

Most people in the relevant units (including ICICI) work 15 hour workdays


If people are putting in 15 hour work days - it is usually at the expense of family , health, happiness. Its their managers who come across of incompetent dolts if the people under them are being flogged for 15 hours

in my team, i wont expect anyone to put more than their 8 hours (efficiently) and if they do put more, then they will get time off. overall i dont expect them to put any overtime. if they are - either they are inefficient or I am a lousy planner who didnt cater to the additioanl work load. or the companies that have such a work ethic are not worth working for.

take your pick

pmund
BRFite
Posts: 166
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 00:49
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby pmund » 06 Aug 2009 19:31

Atreya-- I said 'some'. I myself am in the corp sector now, thanks to a medical prob. So, it's obv that I wouldnt belittle everyone in the corp sector, right. I have nothing against the pvt sector. All i am saying is that it takes a WHOLE lot more dedication, integrity, guts and a different kind of character altogether to be in the forces. Trust me, like many others in this forum, i have seen both sides of the coin. Going thru a day in fauj is much much tougher than a day in a corp job

pgbhat
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4071
Joined: 16 Dec 2008 21:47
Location: Hayden's Ferry

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 06 Aug 2009 20:29

Looks like the BP of people in the thread shot up :lol: . I think Somnath is trolling y'all .... take a chill pill ..... relax.
My uncle in army is a University gold medalist....still decided to join. 8)

putnanja
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4421
Joined: 26 Mar 2002 12:31
Location: searching for the next al-qaida #3

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby putnanja » 06 Aug 2009 20:39

Even countries like USA have sprawling bases all over the country. Like Ray said, there is an advantage to having the unit together and why most of the countries have huge bases. There is also the support system for the families when the units are posted to field postings. The families of the unit offer support to one another. And not to mention the night drills, training etc.

In Bangalore, travelling 15 kms to work in peak hour traffic which takes around 1-1.5 hours is mentally exhausting. Imagine places like Mumbai etc. And due to the traffic, the clothes would get dirty from all the dirt and fumes of the traffic.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5038
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Surya » 06 Aug 2009 20:54

The BP shot up because it went from a theoretical argument to an a very tangible experiencable statement for pretty much anyone who has lived in Mumbai or a big Indian city (Mumbai being the worst).

As soon as he comes with a callous argument of sending the Navy\Air force\Army (oh by the way they too are eligible for allocations) to the far suburbs - we are all able to immediately imagine the experience and find it utterly stupid. Travelling in a train - even freaking first class from Virar to Churchgate will knock a ton of energy out of you. And then its not like you are going to sit in an airconditioned office after that.



Doing so day in and day out will numb your mind.

And imagine doing it in an emergency. Cunningly putting it in the guise of better facility far away was devious as if the effing facility in the existing places cannot be improved. (one should take a look at the Cotton green living quarters - its the pits)

And comparing the 15 hrs of some banker is bullshit - like the comparing the rhoids of wall street men. That comes with the job. The 9 to 5 is for the lower paid jobs - once you get to the higher levels of pay - thats trade off. You get $hitload of money - you work hours and get stress

But that is still the realm of the high paid lot - not the average guys.

I think that was the tipping point - the sheer callousness of expecting servicemen to reach their bases in a country where the darn NSG could not move through traffic in time and it takes more than a hour to get them from airport to town hours after the problem has started

Katare
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2475
Joined: 02 Mar 2002 12:31

Re: Indian Army Discussion

Postby Katare » 06 Aug 2009 21:59

Guys cut some slack to somnath, a lot of folks are ganging up on one persons and some are even using personal attacks (bankers etc). You may endup goading him in saying things that he wouldn't otherwise want to say or meant to say.

Don't collectivly beat him up in to a troll.....


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests