Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 15 Sep 2009 11:21

RayC Sir, just checked the PM. Thank you for the update.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 15 Sep 2009 19:20

Paging Rahul M:

In addition to the break up of Armor given below:

As for the number of Armored Regiments and their distribution, the spread likely to be like this:

Armored Divisions*3 @ 3 Armored Bdes/Div with 6 armored Regiments in all. Total Armored Regiment-18
7 Independent Armored Bdes@ 3 Armored Regiments each. 14(I) Armored Bde has 4 Armored Regiments. Total -22
6 RAPIDS***@ 2 Armored Regiments each. Total - 12
Grand Total - 52 Armored Regiments
Leaves another 11 for Infantry Divisions.


We have 2 (I) Mechanized Brigades. So, with each having one Armored Regiment, leaves 9 for Infantry Divisions.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 16 Sep 2009 12:08

RahulM, Rohit Vats a request, you guys have been going back and forth about various org structures etc on two threads now, some folks might find it overwhelming to keep up, I am certainly one of them.

Can you gentlemen please consolidate your understanding after the discussion somewhat converges? So that us less clued in folks can learn in one snapshot?

Please consider this as a request.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 16 Sep 2009 12:15

Sanku wrote:RahulM, Rohit Vats a request, you guys have been going back and forth about various org structures etc on two threads now, some folks might find it overwhelming to keep up, I am certainly one of them.

Can you gentlemen please consolidate your understanding after the discussion somewhat converges? So that us less clued in folks can learn in one snapshot?

Please consider this as a request.


Please give me a days time...I'll put across the Org.Strucutre of vairous formations in one post and then elaborate on the strength of various formations.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 16 Sep 2009 12:18

rohitvats wrote:
Sanku wrote:RahulM, Rohit Vats a request, you guys have been going back and forth about various org structures etc on two threads now, some folks might find it overwhelming to keep up, I am certainly one of them.

Can you gentlemen please consolidate your understanding after the discussion somewhat converges? So that us less clued in folks can learn in one snapshot?

Please consider this as a request.


Please give me a days time...I'll put across the Org.Strucutre of vairous formations in one post and then elaborate on the strength of various formations.


Can we avoid it?

If it is in the media, it is fine.

Or else, let us leave it be!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 16 Sep 2009 12:21

RayC wrote:Can we avoid it?

If it is in the media, it is fine.

Or else, let us leave it be!


That's another point! How about distribution by email to some?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 16 Sep 2009 12:33

RayC wrote:Can we avoid it?

If it is in the media, it is fine.

Or else, let us leave it be!

ray sir, all this is completely public info and even detailed reports on org structure are available on more than one place on the net for free. you can find some in the PM I sent you.
even more accurate ones are available in form of yearbooks.

this is hardly classified info. everything is in the public domain, all that was required was a bit of sorting.

rohit, thanks. do note than the army is apparently interested in 114 LCH as per ajai shukla ! this is over and above the WSI dhruvs it is getting and in addition to the 65 LCH for the IAF !!

sanku ji, rohit will do a better job than me. I'll wait for his post.

p.s. anyone has an idea of our BMP-2 holdings ? production is till on-going I take it ?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 16 Sep 2009 12:48

There are something that one may know, which are not in the public domain. And I daresay, there are!

It would also be good if whatever info is given is also appended with a link!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 16 Sep 2009 13:31

The org structure wil be based on open source information and the links will also be provided.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Airavat » 17 Sep 2009 07:39

Infantry Commanders Conference in MHOW

Indian Army's Director-General (Infantry) Lieutenant-General Jasbir Singh has stressed on outlining the future modernisation of that Fighting Arm, the other Arm being the Artillery.

While addressing a three-day Infantry Commanders' Conference -- which began yesterday at the Infantry School in the nearby Military Headquarters Of War (MHOW) -- the officer said, ''I am confident that the Conference will address lacunae besides honing the Infantry's mobility and striking power.'' An exhibition of weapons and defence equipment is also part of the Conference.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Y I Patel » 17 Sep 2009 11:53

Regarding Amitabh's post: somehow the discussion got distracted from his central point, which is that a general staff-like institution would be capable of planning and helping execute much more complicated campaigns than the ones post-independence India has had to deal with.

In any case, IPKF should not by any means be held as an example of the prowess of the Indian high command. Whatever was achieved there was due to sheer guts, resourcefulness and bravery of the field officers. The initial higher level planning, up to the point where LtGen AS Kalkat got involved, was awful. Planning of several critical operations like the raid on Jaffna university also left much to be desired. To be sure, IA muddled along and matters improved as the army ascended the learning curve. But the big question becomes, would the start of the ops have been any different, and hopefully better, had there been an institutionalized body to look after the planning?

As for Somalia? Amitabh is talking about campaigns like Barbarosa and the sweep through Ardennes forest. A brigade doing well in Somalia does not compare and should not be used as a distraction!

The need here is to rise above the silo of counter-insurgency campaigns. If tomorrow China collapses and India gets a week's window to rush forces to establish control and stability in Xinjiang AND Tibet, would the Indian Army General Staff be capable of rising to the occassion? And please don't counter with distractions about lack of infrastructure. This is the same Army/Defense establishment that opposed the construction of Mughal Road because it would link Poonch with the Kashmir Valley, as recently as earlier in this decade!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 17 Sep 2009 12:11

Grand wars like the WWII will not be fought as there are nuclear weapons. At best, there will be conflicts close to the borders.

If North Korea is such a problem for the US, why is an Afghanistan or Iraq like action not being taken? If the North Korean regime can be removed, it will relieve a large US force stationed in South Korea and which is a thorn in the side of the US. This force could be gainfully employed elsewhere. Food for thought!

There are institutions and directorates in the IA staffed by high calibre officers who are practically comparable to the concept of General Staff.

Do the US or UK have a General Staff on the lines of the German Army?

The Chief of Staff of a Prussian formation in the field had the right to disagree, in writing, with the plans or orders of the commander of the formation, and appeal to the commander of the next highest formation (which might ultimately be the King, or Emperor, who would be guided by the Head of the Great General Staff). This served as a check on incompetence and also served for the objecting officer to officially disassociate himself with a flawed plan. Only the most stubborn commanders would not give way before this threat.

For these reasons, Prussian and German military victories would often be credited professionally to the Chief of Staff, rather than to the nominal commander of an army.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_General_Staff


Now if the COS , a General Staff officer could overrule the Commander, then, why was he not made the Commander? It would have saved money paying the Commander who as it is was incompetent so much so the COS had to decide the issue!

Power without accountability!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Y I Patel » 17 Sep 2009 12:14

Regarding Indian Army Orbats

Please do post any fresh analyses you can. You will be surprised how much information is available publicly. The best and most detailed exposition of Indian orbat down to brigade level, their peacetime dispositions and movement times during Parakram is (or was) available on the internet. It was written by a retired Pakistani Lt Gen. I forget his name. Perhaps rangudu could jog my memory - he was the last person I sent my copy of the article to. Too late, Rohit and Rahul. I ain't doing it now. I have taken sanyas. Ray sahab, no point preventing people from posting on these issues. Only contributes to ignorance of Indian taxpayer. Pakistanis know. Chinese know. Those reporters cultivated by the Army as it doles out patronage know. And everyone uses the information to twist it for their agenda. Only honest, interested Indians get deprived of it under the excuse of protecting sensitive information. That is why everyone starts breast beating about piffling Chinese incursions. Maybe Ravi or someone will talk about the lines of ammo stored by Indian Mtn Divs. No state secrets there, certainly not from Americans or Chinese or Pakistanis. But would an average breast beating BRFi know? I don't think so.


Some insights into ORBAT and raising of fresh divisions:

All Infantry Divisions in the plains are pretty heavy. Many if not most have four batts to the brigade, and four plus brigades to the division. Many of these south of Kashmir are tasked for defense in depth against a Pak riposte to an Indian thrust. This means that if India is prepared to assume a temporary defensive posture against Pak, these formations can be readily milked to raise new formations. If I were a betting man, I would say something of this nature has happened already.

Armour in Infantry Divisions. You will be surprised. 3 Infantry Division had atleast a regiment of T-72s. These were withdrawn in the early '90s after Narasimha Rao signed the peace and tranquility accord with China. There was an article about them in Sainik Samachar in the good old days when I had time to read it. That accord also enabled the movement of 6 and 39 divs to J&K; later, during Kargil, two divs from NE were sent to Ladakh but arrived too late to be of use. During Parakram, a rough estimate is that only 3-4 Divs remained in the NE. All of 3 Corps, with some divs from 33 and 4 corps, moved to the western front. Notably, 17 Div based in Sikkim has NEVER moved. Of course, contratry to what today's breast beaters would tell you, there was no concern about Chinese incursions during Parakram.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 17 Sep 2009 12:23

To be frank, there are issues that are still not available in the open media.

Yet, I would not be surprised, if someone to show he is 'in the know' in a drawing room conversation spills the bean to someone and that someone, innocently spills it here.

Therefore, the requirement of a link!

It also prevents idle chatter.

I am not surprised about armour in 3 Div. I was there!

Now which Divs have four bns to a bde?

The Divs you speak about which was sent from the East was for a different purpose. I will leave it at that!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 17 Sep 2009 12:26

RayC wrote:Grand wars like the WWII will not be fought as there are nuclear weapons. At best, there will be conflicts close to the borders.


I would strongly disagree with the above, a case in the point is the Mahabharata war, despite the presence of Divya-astra's on both sides, a pact was reached to not use the same since that would have finished the earth for which the war was being fought, and thus destroyed the reason for far itself.

The biggest war in the history of mankind was then fought with conventional arms, and only when the war was at a close and one side completely defeated, did the fanatic then irrational remnants of the one army side use the Celestial weapons.

Tactical nukes were also used in that war.

We should not forget our own history.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 17 Sep 2009 12:34

Sanku wrote:
RayC wrote:Grand wars like the WWII will not be fought as there are nuclear weapons. At best, there will be conflicts close to the borders.


I would strongly disagree with the above, a case in the point is the Mahabharata war, despite the presence of Divya-astra's on both sides, a pact was reached to not use the same since that would have finished the earth for which the war was being fought, and thus destroyed the reason for far itself.

The biggest war in the history of mankind was then fought with conventional arms, and only when the war was at a close and one side completely defeated, did the fanatic then irrational remnants of the one army side use the Celestial weapons.

Tactical nukes were also used in that war.

We should not forget our own history.


An interesting comment.

Indeed, worth study.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Sep 2009 14:29

@YI Patel:

Couple of quick questions:
All Infantry Divisions in the plains are pretty heavy. Many if not most have four batts to the brigade, and four plus brigades to the division.


As far as my knowledge of the TOE of Infantry Divisions goes, the ID generally have 3*3 Strucutre i.e. 3 Infantry Bdes and 3 Infantry Battalions. Ans this is the case for all most all the Infantry Divisions. There are exceptions to the norm, especially wrt the divisions in Kashmir. That has more to do with the geography and requirement to make the formations as self reliant as possible. Please point out the exceptions South of J&K, if you can.

That accord also enabled the movement of 6 and 39 divs to J&K;


39 Mountain Div is Northern Army Reserve and has always been in peace location. It did move into J&K for COIN but how is the same related to the the Sino-India accord. Just curious.

6th Mountain Division is AHQ reserve and is triple tasked for the central sector (Uttrakhand), the chicken's neck area/Sambha and the Valley. It fought in this area in 1965. IIRC, it has never been involved in the J&K for COIN operations. After Kargil, some of the elements did take part in the COIN operations but subsequently reverted to peace locations. Interestingly, from what I hear it was 6th and not 8th that was rushed to handle Kargil ops. Of course, the 6th was at the center of Op Trident in 1987.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 17 Sep 2009 15:11

RayC Sir, got the message.Thanx.Dad was part of the formation during those times and 2002 mobilization.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Y I Patel » 18 Sep 2009 10:03

Rohit,

11 and 15 to name two - and I am excluding RAPIDS because that would be cheating. My info for bdes comes from an internet source that would never be associated with army in a million years. Since I stumbled upon it by serendipity, I would like to keep it unrevealed.

As far as battalions go, please accept my apologies at getting carried away and overstating.

Finally, the Pakistani general and his article that I mentioned in my last post - Kamal Matinuddin. Again, though, when I consulted the article I found to my chagrin that it only listed formations to Div level. Old age is playing tricks with my memory.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 18 Sep 2009 10:08

for the record : was this posted ?

Army withdrawing 39 Mountain Division from Jammu and Kashmir
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 961455.cms

On withdrawal of 39 Mountain Division from Rajouri and Poonch border districts to its base in Palampur in Himachal Pradesh, General Officer Commanding (GOC), 9 Corps Lt Gen G M Nair here said, "This division is being shifted. Some of its units have already reached its base in HP."

39 Mountain Division was shifted to Rajouri and Poonch districts to assist joint security grid in conducting counter insurgency operations and undertake counter infiltration measures in 1994.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 18 Sep 2009 10:31

Y I Patel wrote:Rohit,

11 and 15 to name two - and I am excluding RAPIDS because that would be cheating. My info for bdes comes from an internet source that would never be associated with army in a million years. Since I stumbled upon it by serendipity, I would like to keep it unrevealed.

As far as battalions go, please accept my apologies at getting carried away and overstating.

Finally, the Pakistani general and his article that I mentioned in my last post - Kamal Matinuddin. Again, though, when I consulted the article I found to my chagrin that it only listed formations to Div level. Old age is playing tricks with my memory.


Thank you for the reply.

Added later: I tried looking for the article but could not find it. The link in BR Archives in Op. Parakaram thread is redundant. The article is not available in the archives of the Institute (IRS) that hosted it. If you, or anyone else, has the article archived, please provide the same. Thanx in advance.

Rahul M:

39 Moutain Division has been undergoing pin-pong between J&K and Himachal for quite some time. Just as info, the earlier Div HQ was in Yol in Himachal. That is around 3 hours drive from Pathankot. The same is now HQ of 9 Corps. Palampur used to be Bde HQ of one of the Bdes of 39 Mountain Division. One more thing, I'm not sure if the entire 39th is in J&K. Couple of years back, a large body of Div had reverted to Yol. This was before the 9 Corps was raised. How do I know? Well, Yol happens to be my hometown. :D
If ever the balloon goes up with China, this formation is sure going to be at the forefront on the Ladakh/HP border.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 18 Sep 2009 14:18

I wonder how many Divs have four brigades.

Those that have, and to my mind it is more of an exception than a rule, have operational reasons for the same!


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Y I Patel » 21 Sep 2009 02:24

A more detailed response to my orbat comments and subsequent responses.

First, the small details. As pointed out, 39 has been heavily involved in CI, generally covering areas on the Pir Panjal range. And 6 was also used for CI during the peak CI years of early to mid '90s. I recollect reading about this a long time ago, and have retained that memory since then. Probably from Majoj Joshi's articles from his IT days or in his book on the early days of J&K insurgency. The broader point regarding China comes in because of the dual-triple tasks assigned these divs. That is a fancy way of saying that they will be used where they are most needed. Had the borders with China been warm or hot during the '90s, these divs would not have been moved for CI. Same with the multiple divs being moved to J&K at different times (Kargil, Parakram), due to the threat perception on China border being low. Hence my comment on the China connection of the deployments of these and other divs. Going a little bit off on a tangent, the redeployment of 39 is because now there is sufficient CI power in that area with U Force of RR and with CRPF moving outwards from the towns. So this is a development long in the making, and is the consequence of decisions taken post-Kargil. Even before 39 moved out, other formations that had moved in during Parakram should have moved out quietly, to their NE bases.

As for those divs South of the LOC, I am surprised at the need to question that there are heavy formations! During 71, 15 had 5 bdes operating under it. When I said heavy, I certainly did not mean overweight, which seems to be what has been interpreted. Of course there were and are reasons for having heavy divs - logistical or otherwise. These are, after all, divs in what were identified as holding corps, and were like static formations that had large and strategically vital areas of responsibility. (A prime example of such a formation? Pakistan's 12 ID).

But now our strategic imperatives on the western border are in a state of transition. With all non-strike corps now slated to move into a pivot role, many of these formerly static divs will have tasks that require much more mobility. Even otherwise, with the vast improvements in infrastructure all along the border but particularly in Guj, Raj and Punj, the formations in question would be able to carry out defensive duties with far greater mobility than in the 80s and even 90s. Thus, they would now want to supplant size with nimbleness. As a clincher, I would conjecture that the newly raised RAPIDs are in some of these holding corps, and that the conversion would not have involved reconfiguration of infantry into armour. In other words, if any infantry batts in the converted div were replaced by armoured (not mech) formations, those batts would then either themselves convert to mech or be open for redeployment elsewhere. They will not be wound down. Which is why I get a sense that there will be some 'free radical' kind of infantry formations that are ripe for redeployment, and that raising new infantry heavy mountain divs would be through rounding up of these batt level entities.

Kamal Matinuddin's article. I can't post entire article by copy pasting, since that would certainly violate the Journal's copyright. I can email it to RayC or Jagan or someone else whose email I already have and trust, if they are willing to at as a transmission node. Volunteers to host it? Would BR do the legwork to host a permanent link?
Last edited by Y I Patel on 21 Sep 2009 02:37, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby suryag » 21 Sep 2009 02:34

RIH(Rot in Hell) Ilyas Kashmiri

Musharraf rewarded militant who slit Indian officer’s throat

Which is this incident that is being talked of in this article.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 21 Sep 2009 03:19

YIP,

Send it to me.

Certain Divs are 'over weight' owing to operational reason. Logistically OK.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rupak » 21 Sep 2009 03:38

YIP
Would be grateful to receive a copy of the article.
cheers
R

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Y I Patel » 21 Sep 2009 03:42

Ray sahab,

I have emailed it to your last available email address. Please let me know if it does not reach you.

Thanks
YIP

Rupak,

Could you email me please? You last known email has problems.

YIP

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 21 Sep 2009 09:29

YIP,

Thanks.

An interesting article.

Anyone interested?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Stan_Savljevic » 21 Sep 2009 12:05

ed
Last edited by Stan_Savljevic on 21 Sep 2009 14:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby csharma » 21 Sep 2009 12:16

RayC wrote:YIP,

Thanks.

An interesting article.

Anyone interested?



RayC, Can you send it to me. Thanks.
Last edited by csharma on 22 Sep 2009 08:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 21 Sep 2009 14:06

Sent to you and Rahul M.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 21 Sep 2009 16:06

RayC Sir,

Can you please send the article to me at: rohitvats29(at)gmaildotcom

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajkumar » 21 Sep 2009 16:29

RayC

Please send to me rajdotkumaratpoboxdotcom

Thanks very much.

Raj

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby aditp » 21 Sep 2009 16:43

^^^^ and also to me please at

aditya79india AT gmail DOT com

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sumeet_s » 21 Sep 2009 18:04

RayC Sir,

send me also please...

sumeet003 at gmail dot com

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sumeet_s » 21 Sep 2009 18:19

rohitvats wrote:
Interestingly, from what I hear it was 6th and not 8th that was rushed to handle Kargil ops.


Yeah..Gen VP Malik was in favor of giving the task to GOC 6 M DIV - Maj Gen Ashok Hakku as he had earlier commanded 121 INF BRIG.
HQ of 6 M DIV was moved from bareilly on 26th may, 1999 and placed under 15 corps.

but 15 corps and Northern army commander insisted on giving the job to 8 M DIV.
So finally on 30th may the decision was taken to induct 8 M DIV which was Northern command reserve.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 22 Sep 2009 11:33

sumeet_s wrote:
rohitvats wrote:
Interestingly, from what I hear it was 6th and not 8th that was rushed to handle Kargil ops.


Yeah..Gen VP Malik was in favor of giving the task to GOC 6 M DIV - Maj Gen Ashok Hakku as he had earlier commanded 121 INF BRIG.
HQ of 6 M DIV was moved from bareilly on 26th may, 1999 and placed under 15 corps.

but 15 corps and Northern army commander insisted on giving the job to 8 M DIV.
So finally on 30th may the decision was taken to induct 8 M DIV which was Northern command reserve.


Sumeet_S, I'm aware of the movement details of 6th Mountain Division. The HQ, some troops and support elements were airlifted post haste from Bareilly. You see, dad was part of the formation in 1999 and 2002. :D Another thing, why would 8th Mountain be called Northern Command Reserve? It is full time into CI Ops. 39th Mountain Division is what I think the Northern Command Reserve.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby kittoo » 22 Sep 2009 13:10

X-posting from How to Join Army thread-

Here is an incident that not only hurt me as an Indian but simply shocked on the ignorance and false sense of knowledge and righteousness in people of India.
My sister is planning to give Defence services exam, and was discussing it recently with another friend of hers. The discussion turned, somehow, towards the direction that there is a lot of physical abuse of women in Indian army. While I certainly believe that it isnt as much as many sensationalist news channels would like you to believe, these exact words were uttered by one of her friends, which (when my sister told me) left me in disgust-
"Tujhe pata hai main kya karungi? Main exam dungi army ka aur jab ho jaayega na selection toh laat maar kar aa jaaungi, itni gandi hai apni Army" (You know what will I do? I will give the exam and when I will get selected, I will throw it away cause thats what our Army deserves.)

I dont know but somehow these words, even though said by an stranger, have left a scar on my heart. I cant even imagine how this thinking fermented in her, but I am planning to send an email. As much as I would have liked to confront her directly or over the phone, I can't do it cause she is my sister's friend and if a heated debate follows then it will be harmful for their friendship (and I will also doubt that I will be control myself on the phone if she repeats any of this). Any suggestions by jingos on what I should add in the mail?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rkirankr » 22 Sep 2009 13:35

kittoo wrote:X-posting from How to Join Army thread-

Here is an incident that not only hurt me as an Indian but simply shocked on the ignorance and false sense of knowledge and righteousness in people of India.
My sister is planning to give Defence services exam, and was discussing it recently with another friend of hers. The discussion turned, somehow, towards the direction that there is a lot of physical abuse of women in Indian army. While I certainly believe that it isnt as much as many sensationalist news channels would like you to believe, these exact words were uttered by one of her friends, which (when my sister told me) left me in disgust-
"Tujhe pata hai main kya karungi? Main exam dungi army ka aur jab ho jaayega na selection toh laat maar kar aa jaaungi, itni gandi hai apni Army" (You know what will I do? I will give the exam and when I will get selected, I will throw it away cause thats what our Army deserves.)

I dont know but somehow these words, even though said by an stranger, have left a scar on my heart. I cant even imagine how this thinking fermented in her, but I am planning to send an email. As much as I would have liked to confront her directly or over the phone, I can't do it cause she is my sister's friend and if a heated debate follows then it will be harmful for their friendship (and I will also doubt that I will be control myself on the phone if she repeats any of this). Any suggestions by jingos on what I should add in the mail?

Tell her army is better off without her :evil:


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