Indian Army: News & Discussion

All threads that are locked or marked for deletion will be moved to this forum. The topics will be cleared from this archive on the 1st and 16th of each month.
krishnan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 7342
Joined: 07 Oct 2005 12:58
Location: 13° 04' N , 80° 17' E

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby krishnan » 22 Sep 2009 15:03

http://news.rediff.com/report/2009/sep/ ... spying.htm

A dismissed army soldier has been arrested after he was found to be allegedly couriering classified military plans, including details of deployment of the Indian Army [ Images ] in Jammu and Kashmir [ Images ] and Secunderabad, for Pakistan's Inter Services Intelligence.

Describing the arrest as a "big catch," Additional Director General of Police (Headquarters) Neelmani said in Patna on Tuesday that the former sepoy, Sudhanshu Sudhakar, was arrested during a raid at a place under Kankarbagh police station on Monday evening on a tip off by the Intelligence Bureau and other intelligence agencies.

Sudhakar, a resident of Sitamarhi district, was booked under the Official Secrets Act at the Kankerbagh police station and the Home ministry was informed, Neelmani said.

The ISI operative was in Patna to collect information about the Ordnance factory at Rajgir in Nalanda district.

Senior Superintendent of Police (Patna) Vinit Vinayak told media persons that the sepoy was dismissed from the army in 2007 after a five year stint because of dubious activities.

The alleged ISI agent was on his way to Kathmandu to share secrets with an ISI module on information relating to deployment of Indian army in Jammu Kashmir and Secunderabad in Andhra Pradesh, besides inputs on missiles, he said.

Sudhakar revealed vital information on his contacts during interrogation and important documents were seized from his Sitamarhi residence, the SSP said.

Raids were made in Sitamarhi and Madhubani districts and some places in Jharkhand on information provided by the agent.

Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 22 Sep 2009 15:05

Kitoo,
IMHO she is too ignorant and a obnoxious fool to deserve any argument in this matter (even through email).
Those who have been in contact with the IA officers would tell you about the level of courtesy that they show to women ( both their fellow female officers and officers' wives).
It is indeed literally "taught" in armed forces to always show courtesy and respect towards women.
I have been in close contact with IA officers all my life. If an officer is fool enough to misbehave with a woman (even in inebriated state), the consequences are very bad. And she talks of physical abuse? :roll:
If not anything else, the women officers are treated better than their male counterparts.
Senior officers do not hesitate to talk "really" harshly with their junior officers at some mistake by the latter. But women officers are treated much better in that regard.
The world is full of ignorant fools. You cannot change that. So let it not bother you too much.

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 22 Sep 2009 17:45

someone needs to hammer India Today with emails

http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/NEWS/news ... wsid=11722



Its a crying shame that we let Musharraf step on our soil

sumeet_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 21:39
Location: Southern Command HQ

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sumeet_s » 22 Sep 2009 18:58

rohitvats wrote:
The HQ, some troops and support elements were airlifted post haste from Bareilly. You see, dad was part of the formation in 1999 and 2002. :D


oh..nothin to say then.. :)

Another thing, why would 8th Mountain be called Northern Command Reserve? It is full time into CI Ops.


ya...sorry for the wrong info...8 mountain div was into CI Ops..it was Northern command reserve long ago..dunno the exact period..

39th Mountain Division is what I think the Northern Command Reserve.


but from what i read, even 39th M Div was into CI Ops prior to Kargil and then in war situation it was placed as 16 corps reserves.

nelson
BRFite
Posts: 988
Joined: 02 Mar 2008 21:10

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 22 Sep 2009 22:31

RayC sir,
Have you come across or know about "Operation Rachna"?
If someone can throw light on it, please.
Thanks in advanace

AnimeshP
BRFite
Posts: 514
Joined: 01 Dec 2008 07:39

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby AnimeshP » 22 Sep 2009 22:39

rkirankr wrote:
kittoo wrote:X-posting from How to Join Army thread-

Here is an incident that not only hurt me as an Indian but simply shocked on the ignorance and false sense of knowledge and righteousness in people of India.
My sister is planning to give Defence services exam, and was discussing it recently with another friend of hers. The discussion turned, somehow, towards the direction that there is a lot of physical abuse of women in Indian army. While I certainly believe that it isnt as much as many sensationalist news channels would like you to believe, these exact words were uttered by one of her friends, which (when my sister told me) left me in disgust-
"Tujhe pata hai main kya karungi? Main exam dungi army ka aur jab ho jaayega na selection toh laat maar kar aa jaaungi, itni gandi hai apni Army" (You know what will I do? I will give the exam and when I will get selected, I will throw it away cause thats what our Army deserves.)

I dont know but somehow these words, even though said by an stranger, have left a scar on my heart. I cant even imagine how this thinking fermented in her, but I am planning to send an email. As much as I would have liked to confront her directly or over the phone, I can't do it cause she is my sister's friend and if a heated debate follows then it will be harmful for their friendship (and I will also doubt that I will be control myself on the phone if she repeats any of this). Any suggestions by jingos on what I should add in the mail?

Tell her army is better off without her :evil:


She probably won't clear SSB ... :wink:
You know the saying ... "empty pots make more noise" or something to that effect ...

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 22 Sep 2009 23:32

but from what i read, even 39th M Div was into CI Ops prior to Kargil and then in war situation it was placed as 16 corps reserves


Sumeet_S: The 39th has always been part of 16 Corps. It still continues post the 16 Corps split. IIRC, with 16 Corps earlier having 5 Infantry/Moutain Divisions, 39 was the reserve formation for the Northern Command.

As for the 8th Mountain, let me post this about 8th and its chequred history in CI Ops from Orbat .com:

1972-1990
Northeast Counterinsurgency.
This division has the greatest number of counterinsurgency battalion/years of any army in the world.
In 1972, it controlled 36 battalions – a reinforced corps worth of infantry – for CI operations in the Northeast.

1986
56th Mountain Brigade (6 battalions)
59th Mountain Brigade
81st Mountain Brigade

1991-99
Kashmir Counterinsurgency, HQ Sharifabad.

1999
The division shifts June 1 to Dras for the Kargil War

1999-Present
Assigned to XIV Corps. Area of Responsibility is from Matayan to west of the Siachin.


Hope this helps. RayC Sir can help dispel any doubts.

sumeet_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 21:39
Location: Southern Command HQ

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sumeet_s » 23 Sep 2009 01:55

rohitvats wrote:The 39th has always been part of 16 Corps. It still continues post the 16 Corps split.


:| meant to say the same...probably i didn't put it right..what i meant to say was that it was
removed from CI Ops and put as reserves.

Few lines from the book i read:
Kargil: From surprise to victory.
By Gen VP Malik.

1) Ch-6, Pg 129 says
"8 M Div which was a Northern Command Reserve and deployed in countermilitancy role in
kashmir valley and whose two brigades had already moved to dras and mashkoh sectors"

the next line reads
"Similarly 39 Mountain Division was instructed to disengage from countermilitancy
operations and be available to 16 corps for any contingency, including offensive tasks"

2) Ch-7, Pg 142 says
"The decision to move 8 M DIV had been deliberate. This division was a Northern Command
Reserve Formation"

Also read about 8 M DIV from Orbat.com

So...was kinda confused. :-? :-?

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 23 Sep 2009 07:13

nelson wrote:RayC sir,
Have you come across or know about "Operation Rachna"?
If someone can throw light on it, please.
Thanks in advanace


Op Rachna, if my memory does not fail me, were posts created along the LC, after the delineation caused by the change in territory captured during the 1971 War to plug gaps as also dominate the LC physically so that there could be no incursion by Pakistan. They did not have to be tactically sound nor were they to be there during active operation.

KiranM
BRFite
Posts: 575
Joined: 17 Dec 2006 16:48
Location: Bangalore

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby KiranM » 23 Sep 2009 09:41

If I remember yesterday this thread had posts on an article being circulated by e-mail. Can any gentleman please forward that to my ID- madhusudan.kiran@gmail.com ?

Thanks in advance.
Regards,
Kiran

sumeet_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 21:39
Location: Southern Command HQ

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sumeet_s » 23 Sep 2009 19:06

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/On-the-border-stray-dogs-are-Armys-new-best-friends/articleshow/5035717.cms

Stray Dogs: Army's new best friends....

The Army is training stray dogs for help in detecting intruders and thus stop infiltration from across the border. The Line of Control (LoC) between Akhnoor and Sunderbani sectors is regularly used by infiltrators to cross fence. Though troops remains vigilant round-the-clock, there are some moments when fence remains unattended, giving enough time to intruders to cross over. It is this gap that the Army hopes the dogs could fill.

nelson
BRFite
Posts: 988
Joined: 02 Mar 2008 21:10

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nelson » 23 Sep 2009 21:17

RayC wrote:
nelson wrote:RayC sir,
Have you come across or know about "Operation Rachna"?
If someone can throw light on it, please.
Thanks in advanace


Op Rachna, if my memory does not fail me, were posts created along the LC, after the delineation caused by the change in territory captured during the 1971 War to plug gaps as also dominate the LC physically so that there could be no incursion by Pakistan. They did not have to be tactically sound nor were they to be there during active operation.


Great Sir, that's like it. Can you suggest some source from where I can tap more information. Thanks.

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 23 Sep 2009 22:49

nelson wrote:
RayC wrote:
Op Rachna, if my memory does not fail me, were posts created along the LC, after the delineation caused by the change in territory captured during the 1971 War to plug gaps as also dominate the LC physically so that there could be no incursion by Pakistan. They did not have to be tactically sound nor were they to be there during active operation.


Great Sir, that's like it. Can you suggest some source from where I can tap more information. Thanks.


No idea.

Never checked back since those days what is the latest.

pmund
BRFite
Posts: 165
Joined: 14 Jul 2006 00:49
Location: Kolkata
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pmund » 23 Sep 2009 23:59

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news ... 046461.cms

A black day. FOUR gallant soldiers marytred. A marine commando was apparently among those killed. Govt isnt giving out the name yet. Any confirmation?

abhishekm
BRFite
Posts: 111
Joined: 23 Jun 2009 23:28

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby abhishekm » 24 Sep 2009 02:56

pmund wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Army-major-jawan-killed-in-Bandipora-encounter-in-JK/articleshow/5046461.cms

A black day. FOUR gallant soldiers marytred. A marine commando was apparently among those killed. Govt isnt giving out the name yet. Any confirmation?


Sorry for the slightly silly question but I've always been interested in knowing about combat medics and how they operate in the Indian army. Can anyone who served in IA tell me what the procedure is for emergency medevac in CI operations? Do we have helicopter evacuation for casualties? If so, is this done only after the area is sanitised following completion of the operation? Or do we have military ambulances lumbering up to the battlezone to pick up casualties?

Also, on a more general note, how many medics usually accompany an assault squad (assume there are 10-15 members in each squad)? I would assume that there would be at least one medic trained in ER techniques for every 10-15 soldiers. Perhaps the ratio would be 1:5 for SF teams?

Surya
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5034
Joined: 05 Mar 2001 12:31

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 26 Sep 2009 04:57

Somewhere SSreidhar was asking why the house was not brought down

According to Gaurav, major Suri was not given permission

Someone's head needs to roll for that

http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/index. ... ntid=63655


What a waste??

Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 26 Sep 2009 05:56

I have always wondered about the bayonet fighting techniques taught by Indian Army.
For example, consider the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBwyeVdTo1Y&feature=related
Just after 1:30, the cadets start running in extremely short steps. I always find myself mystified as to the purpose of it. What is the reason behind these extremely short steps? Why not regular run up?
To the layman's mind, these run ups with extremely short steps would seem to be impractical. Yet this is how it has been taught. So there must be some logic here which is unfortunately escaping me.
Also after piercing the first sack, the cadets run towards the second erect sack. They then stop their momentum and jump. Why stop the momentum? Perhaps to maintain balance? If so, then why jump?
Could RayC Sir or some other Guru forgive my ignorance and shed some light on this?

sumeet_s
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 53
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 21:39
Location: Southern Command HQ

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sumeet_s » 26 Sep 2009 12:24

Surya wrote:According to Gaurav, major Suri was not given permission

http://headlinestoday.intoday.in/index. ... ntid=63655


Extremely disheartening to read that Major Suri was not given permission to bring down the house..

Was the house and 2 terrorists worth more than major Suri's life....
sad...too sad...

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 26 Sep 2009 12:30

Parijat Gaur wrote:I have always wondered about the bayonet fighting techniques taught by Indian Army.
For example, consider the following video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBwyeVdTo1Y&feature=related
Just after 1:30, the cadets start running in extremely short steps. I always find myself mystified as to the purpose of it. What is the reason behind these extremely short steps? Why not regular run up?
To the layman's mind, these run ups with extremely short steps would seem to be impractical. Yet this is how it has been taught. So there must be some logic here which is unfortunately escaping me.
Also after piercing the first sack, the cadets run towards the second erect sack. They then stop their momentum and jump. Why stop the momentum? Perhaps to maintain balance? If so, then why jump?
Could RayC Sir or some other Guru forgive my ignorance and shed some light on this?


Good question.

Never thought of it that way.

But from experience, I can say that if one curls up and makes himself compact, the energy within the body is more compressed for positive and strong action.

You stop and jump into the target in bayonet fighting with full momentum so that you don't lose direction and you shove the bayonet with full force!

Karate chaps or Boxers (done both) also have short and terminal fast movements.

Gaur
Forum Moderator
Posts: 2009
Joined: 01 Feb 2009 23:19

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 26 Sep 2009 16:08

Thanks Sir. I had always wondered about this.
If I could test your patience some more, I have two more questions.
1>What is generally the range at which the IA practice firing their rifles?
Does every firing range in India is of some same standard distance? Or does it differ from place to place?
If it differs, then could you give me some approximate average distance?

2> Successfully firing at a target stationed beyond 200 meters using iron sight seems nearly impossible to me. Even for the well trained IA personnel, I would guess that it would not be an easy task.
And I cannot even imagine how one manages to shoot beyond 300-400 mts. But I guess situations are bound to arise requiring such marksmanship. But with magnifying optical sights, I guess that the task would become significantly less difficult.
So my question is, is the IA making any demands to equip most of its infantry with optical sights? I can understand that even with optical sights, only an expert marksman can be confident at engaging targets beyond 300 meters. But even for an average jawan, would it not significantly increase his chances of successfully hitting not only distant targets, but also closer ones?
Or is it that IA has already demanded this, but as with UBGLs, the pace of producing them is pathetically slow?

RayC
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4333
Joined: 16 Jan 2004 12:31

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 26 Sep 2009 18:35

Parijat Gaur wrote:Thanks Sir. I had always wondered about this.
If I could test your patience some more, I have two more questions.
1>What is generally the range at which the IA practice firing their rifles?
Does every firing range in India is of some same standard distance? Or does it differ from place to place?
If it differs, then could you give me some approximate average distance?

2> Successfully firing at a target stationed beyond 200 meters using iron sight seems nearly impossible to me. Even for the well trained IA personnel, I would guess that it would not be an easy task.
And I cannot even imagine how one manages to shoot beyond 300-400 mts. But I guess situations are bound to arise requiring such marksmanship. But with magnifying optical sights, I guess that the task would become significantly less difficult.
So my question is, is the IA making any demands to equip most of its infantry with optical sights? I can understand that even with optical sights, only an expert marksman can be confident at engaging targets beyond 300 meters. But even for an average jawan, would it not significantly increase his chances of successfully hitting not only distant targets, but also closer ones?
Or is it that IA has already demanded this, but as with UBGLs, the pace of producing them is pathetically slow?


I am not too sure what the various practices that are fired.

At the long range, 300m is the maximum. Practices are at different distance and different modes. There is also . snap shooting, timed and not times.

No, it is not difficult and you can see the target and it is not that difficult. I preferred open sights. It was more challenging.

The whole issue of new equipment is a case of balancing the budget and it is not the Army alone that requires refurbishing. Navy and the Airforce too and within the Army, so many Arms and Services.

Usually, those units which are committed to operations are the first ones who get kitted.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 26 Sep 2009 19:33

abhishekm wrote:
pmund wrote:http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/news/india/Army-major-jawan-killed-in-Bandipora-encounter-in-JK/articleshow/5046461.cms

A black day. FOUR gallant soldiers marytred. A marine commando was apparently among those killed. Govt isnt giving out the name yet. Any confirmation?


Sorry for the slightly silly question but I've always been interested in knowing about combat medics and how they operate in the Indian army. Can anyone who served in IA tell me what the procedure is for emergency medevac in CI operations? Do we have helicopter evacuation for casualties? If so, is this done only after the area is sanitised following completion of the operation? Or do we have military ambulances lumbering up to the battlezone to pick up casualties?

Also, on a more general note, how many medics usually accompany an assault squad (assume there are 10-15 members in each squad)? I would assume that there would be at least one medic trained in ER techniques for every 10-15 soldiers. Perhaps the ratio would be 1:5 for SF teams?


The Infantry Units in IA have a system of Regimental Medical Officers (RMO). These are doctors (MBBS) from Army Medical Corps who serve a deputation of 2-3years in Infantry Units. They are supported by a small group of Nursing Assistants(NA). The job of the RMO is take care of general ailments and refer the balance to higher medical units/hospitals. The ratio you refer to is untenable. Given tha there are ~800 odd men in an Infantry Unit, you can see the number of medica required.

As for Medevac/Casevac, the Army Aviation Corps (AAC) units are there to support the formations. As COIN Ops are generally a localized affair, a suitable landing ground screened and covered by own troops will be used in case of emergency.

Also, the landing areas/grounds close to military hospitals are clearly marked and AAC/IAF would have worked out the SOP for landing and taking off from a given location. As an example, the AAC (with Cheetah/Chetak) and IAF with Mi-8/17 had carried out a landing and take-off runs from the parade ground of a large IA hospital in NE and worked out the SOPs. While the ground size was alright, given the surrounding tree cover, the Mi-8/17 had to adopt a near vertical takeoff versus the rolling and more shallow one they generally use. Some trees had to be chopped to assit a more shallow takeoff. But this did place limit on the takeoff weight of the heptr.

As an tid-bid, the RMO is SF units are themselves SF qualified and serve the complete probation. You can come across surgeons and medical specialist with BALIDAN badge adorning their right pockets.

Hope this helps.

Sanjay M
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4892
Joined: 02 Nov 2005 14:57

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanjay M » 27 Sep 2009 02:30

I was noting some of the newer low-tech military innovations around the world, and wonder where India stands in incorporating such concepts.


Helmets with provisions for communications:

Not helmets with built in radios, but helmets with mount points/design shape to allow for earpieces/cups and a point on the back to mount a specially designed communications box (eg. standard military radio).

Uniforms with built in tourniquets:

The pants and jacket sleeves have points where a tourniquet is run through the material and the end is secured with velcro or a buttoned flap. I've read that various specops around the world use something similar.

Plate carriers:

Not exactly a "forgotten" or unknown concept, but something that really needs to be looked at for wider use. After all, flak jackets are mainly just crap.

Internal frame rucksacks:

I know that the USMC uses some, but I'm not sure if India uses them. Again this is something that needs widespread use to replace external frame rucksacks used by most other services/militaries.

SCBA/Postive pressure/Combination filter and air NBC masks:

Basically something more effective than the standard canister masks used nowadays.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 27 Sep 2009 19:58

As an extension of series of discussions on the TOE of various formations of IA spread over different threads, I'm putting down the description in one place for further reference. The same has been collated from open source material. The single most important site being Orbat.Com maintained by Ravi Rikhye. These are not definite TOE and should be used only as guide.

The data is available here:http://orbat.com/site/cimh/index.html

Please feel free to add to the details provided in the sections below. Since, Sanjay M and YI Patel have been active recently, I'll request their indulgence and provide inputs,

Armored Regiment

Personnel:490

RHQ
Tanks: 3 Command Tanks
APC: 6 - (This is the authorized level. Not sure if the same are held in the mentioned numbers. Likely to be less)

Reconnaissance Troop
Light Tanks:9-(again authorized number. The same are not held. The job is done by soft skinned vehicles, Jongas in most cases)

Tank Squadrons - 3
Sqn. HQ
Tanks - 2
ARV - 1

Tank Troops/Sqd. - 4
Tanks/Troop - 3
Tanks/Sqd. - 14

Total
Tanks - 45
Light Tanks - Authorized-9; Held-0
ARV-3
APC - Athorized-6;Held - Less than 6

Below mentioned are comments from Orbat.Com on total tank strength including attrition reserve:
At the time (1965) a regiment was authorized 27 additional medium tanks as attrition/maintenance reserve.
The figure was nominal insofar as only 250 Centurions (62 per regiment) were purchased for the Armored Division.
By 1988, the allotment was 62 tanks per regiment, but T-72 regiments had only 55


Added Later: The indicative break up of tank strength is as follows:
Operational:30
Training:15
Reserve:10
Last edited by rohitvats on 27 Sep 2009 23:49, edited 3 times in total.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 27 Sep 2009 20:11

Mechanized Regiments

Personnel-1050
HQ Company: 3 APC
Recce Platoon:Soft skinned vehicles - (Need more clarity on this. I think there is dedicated recce version of BMP-II)
Signal Section:3 APC
Pioneers: 2 APC
Regimental Aid Post:2 APC

Mechanized Companies:3

Mechanized Company
Company HQ
APC:2
Mortar APC:2

Mechanized Platoons/Company:3
Platoon HQ:1
Sections/Platoon:3
APC/Section:1

APCs/Company:16

Total APCs: 58
Last edited by rohitvats on 27 Sep 2009 20:23, edited 1 time in total.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 27 Sep 2009 20:19

Independent Armored Brigade

Brigade HQ Sqn.
- Command Tanks:3

(I) Recce Squandron:1 - Need more clarity on the status of this segment
- Tanks:18

Armored Regiments:3
Mechanized Regiments:1

Medium Artillery Regiment
- Guns:18

R&O Flight
- Helicopters:5 (4+1 reserve) - This will be alloted from the Corps R&O Squadron of AAC
Engineer Company
EME Company
Field Ambulance:1
ASC Company
Signal Company
Brigade Ordnance Unit

Total
Command Tanks:3
Tanks:153
APC:58

Note: APCs and Tanks are also held by other units linke the Engineers (Mine Trawls and Dozer Tanks). Plus there will be usual compliment of BLT (Bridge Laying Tanks) and Armored Recovery Vehicles (ARV), held by the formation and its units

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 27 Sep 2009 20:52

Armored Division

Division HQ

Reconnaissance & Support Battalion
- R&S Companies: 3
- Tentative:1 Tank Sqn.+1 BMP Company+1 Wheeled Recce Company

Armored Brigades:3

No.1 Armored Brigade
- Armored Regiments:2
- Mechanized Regiments:2

No.2 and No.3 Armored Brigade
- Armored Regiments:2
- Mechanized Regiments:1

R&O Flight
- Helicopters:4+1 Reserve - Alloted from Corps R&O Squadron
- Some sources also attribute the Mi-35 Sqn. as part of Armored Divisions.

Artillery Brigade
- Medium Regiments:4
-Guns/Regiment:18
SATA Battery - Surveillance and Target Acquisition - (I'm not aware of present strength. But these operate the UAVs as well)

AD(I) Brigade:1 - These are held by the parent Corps of the Armored Division. But de-facto part of Armored Division.
IIRC, the TOE is not standard. It can contain the permutation and combination of the following:
- AD Regiment (SP) - ZSU-23-4
- AD Regiment (SP) - Tungushka
- Light AD Regiment (SP) - Strela-10M (SA-13)
- AD Missile Regiment

Signal Regiment:1
ASC Unit:1
EME Regiment:1
Engineer Regiment:1
Division Ordnance Unit:1
Field Ambulances:2

Total
Tanks:276
APC:232 - does not include the APC strength with R&S Regiment.
Guns:72
Last edited by rohitvats on 27 Sep 2009 23:45, edited 1 time in total.

Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3032
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Jagan » 27 Sep 2009 21:16

Till about the 71 war, the Armoured Division (1 Div) consisted of 1 Armoured Brigade (with 6 Tank regts IIRC or atleast 4) and 1 (Lorried) Infantry Brigade (they were 1 Bde and 43 Lorried Inf Bde respectively).

At some point 43 Bde changed over to Mechanised (and possibly now Armoured). When did the whole Division change over to three Armoured Brigade format?

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 27 Sep 2009 23:20

Jagan wrote:Till about the 71 war, the Armoured Division (1 Div) consisted of 1 Armoured Brigade (with 6 Tank regts IIRC or atleast 4) and 1 (Lorried) Infantry Brigade (they were 1 Bde and 43 Lorried Inf Bde respectively).

At some point 43 Bde changed over to Mechanised (and possibly now Armoured). When did the whole Division change over to three Armoured Brigade format?


Jagan Garu, for the shift, please refer to this comment from Orbat.com:

Still (1971 war) following British World War II organizations, the division had only two manuvere brigades with 4 tank and 3 APC battalions. The idea was that the one tank, one mechanized, and one artillery brigade made a balanced team. In 1972, when the new 31st Armored Division was raised, 1st Armored Division began to transition to a three brigade structure of six tank regiments and four mechanized infantry battalions, division artillery, and strong SP AA units later termed as a brigade.


31st Armored Division was itself raised initially with 2 Armored Brigades and one SP Arty Bde. One of the Armored Brigades wad the original 2(I) Armored Brigade while the other was a new raising.

Jagan
Webmaster BR
Posts: 3032
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: Earth @ Google.com
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Jagan » 28 Sep 2009 06:18

thanks rohit, somehow i missed that bit even though I read up on Orbat sometime ago

BTW this page http://www.bharat-rakshak.com/LAND-FORC ... oured.html may need your review and inputs. (based on Open source ofcourse!)

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 28 Sep 2009 19:56

casevac helo in J&K.
Image

rohit, good job. I'll come back with comments (and questions) when I have time
to go through them in detail.
regards.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 29 Sep 2009 13:27

Continuation of the TOE posted earlier:

Mechanized (I) Brigade

This is a rarity in Indian Army. We only have two of the kind. 55(I) Mech Bde (XI Corps-Beas, Punjab) and 340(I) Mech Bde (XII Corps-Jodhpur). The 33rd Armored Division was raised as a Mech. Division, but then susequently converted to Armored Division.

Brigade HQ Sqn.
- Command Tanks:3

Armored Regiments:1
Mechanized Regiments:2

Medium Artillery Regiment :1
- Guns:18

Engineer Company
EME Company
Field Ambulance:1
ASC Company
Signal Company
Brigade Ordnance Unit

Total
Command Tanks:3
Tanks:45+10
APC:116

Note: APCs and Tanks are also held by other units linke the Engineers (Mine Trawls and Dozer Tanks). Plus there will be usual compliment of BLT (Bridge Laying Tanks) and Armored Recovery Vehicles (ARV), held by the formation and its units
Last edited by rohitvats on 30 Sep 2009 11:56, edited 1 time in total.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 29 Sep 2009 13:48

RAPID Division

IA had four of these till some time ago. These are 24th,18th,36th and 14th. As per recent reports posted on Orbat.com, the number has gone up to six with 7th under conversion. My gut feeling tells me that 12th Division under XII Corps is prime one of the converted ones.

Division HQ

Reconnaissance & Support Battalion
-HQ Companies
-R & S Companies:3
-Recce Company:1
--ATGM Platoon
--Mortar Platoon
--MMG Platoon

Armored Brigade:1
-Armored Regiments:2
-Mechanized Regiments:2

Infantry Brigades:2
-Infantry battalions/Brigade:3

Artillery Brigade:1
-Medium Regiments:4
-Guns/Regiment:18
-MLRS Battery:1
-SATA Battery

R&O Flight:1
Division Ordnance Unit
Engineer Regiment:1
ASC Battalion:1
EME Battalion:1
Signals Regiment:1
Field Ambulance:2

Total:
Infantry Battalions:6
Tanks:92
AFV:116

Note:Additional Tanks and APC are held by EME and Engineers units as well like BLT,ARV and command vehicles.
Last edited by rohitvats on 30 Sep 2009 11:57, edited 2 times in total.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 29 Sep 2009 14:07

Infantry Division

Division HQ

Division Tank Regiment
-Tanks:45

Infantry Brigades:3
-Infantry Battalions/Brigade:3

Artillery Brigade:1

-SATA Battery

-Medium Regiment:1 - In IA, caliber above 120mm and upto 160mm is termed as Medium. So, the medium regiment in IA cab have either the M-46 (130mm) or the venerable Bofors-FH-77b (155mm).IIRC, Armored Divisions and Armored (I) Bde and RAPIDs have the 155mm guns in their Medium Regiment
--Guns:18
---Batteries:3
----Guns/Battery:6

-Field Regiments:3 - Caliber:105mm (IFG)
--Guns:18
---Batteries:3
----Guns/Battery:6

-Light Regiments:1 - Caliber:120mm Mortars
--Mortars:12
---Batteries:2
----Mortars/Battery:6
**As per Sanjay, some of these have converted to Field Regiment Role. I have no indp. confirmation

R&O Flight:1 - to be alloted from Corps R&O Squadron
Division Ordnance Unit
Engineer Regiment:1
ASC Battalion:1
EME Battalion:1
Signals Regiment:1
Field Ambulance:2

Total
Infantry Battalions:9
Tanks:45
Last edited by rohitvats on 30 Sep 2009 11:59, edited 2 times in total.

Sanku
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12526
Joined: 23 Aug 2007 15:57
Location: Naaahhhh

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sanku » 29 Sep 2009 14:23

Thank rohitvats, this is really helpful in understanding IA and its doctrines, actions etc...

May I make a small suggestion? Would you like to format the data a little bit so that it is a little easier to see the break down by components.

Whenever a sub component if being referred to, it could be indented a bit so that we can quickly see whats happening there.

Could this info be also posted on the Indian army page on BR?

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 30 Sep 2009 11:55

Sanku wrote:Thank rohitvats, this is really helpful in understanding IA and its doctrines, actions etc...

May I make a small suggestion? Would you like to format the data a little bit so that it is a little easier to see the break down by components.

Whenever a sub component if being referred to, it could be indented a bit so that we can quickly see whats happening there.

Could this info be also posted on the Indian army page on BR?


Sanku, some of the post made earlier are locked and I cannot edit/modify them. Also, indentation does not seem to work. I tried using it but everything gets right alinged as u post the articel. BTW, I've tried using '-' symbol to signify sub ordinate unit/comment. If you have any doubts, please feel free to ask. I'll reply as best as I can.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 02 Oct 2009 21:56

Sometime back there was a discussion on the likely spread of Armored Regiments in IA.I'm adding the likely spread of Mechanized Regiments to the information.This is how it ideally should be:

1. Armored Divisions:3
-Armored Regiments/Div:6
-Mechanized Regiments/Div:4
-Total
--Armored:18
--Mechanized:12

2. Armored(I) Brigades:7
-Armored Regiment/Bde:3
-Mechanized/Bde:1
-Total
--Armored:22
--Mechanized:8
**This is because 14(I) Armd.Bde is supposed to have 4 Armored and 2 Mechanized Regiments.

3. Mechanized(I) Brigades:2
-Armored Regiments/Bde:1
-Mechanized Regiment/Bde:2
-Total
--Armored:2
--Mechanized:4

4. RAPIDS:7 - Up from earlier 4. 7th under conversion to RAPID
-Armored Regiments/Division:2
-Mechanized Regiment/Div:2
-Total
--Armored:14
--Mechanized:14

Grand Total:
--Armored Regiments:56
--Mechanized Regiments:38

If all the above mentioned formations are upto strength, this leaves only 4 Armored Regiments for attachment with Infantry Division. There was a recent report on Orbat.com that 10 odd Armored and Mechanized Battalions are under new raising. But the break up between Armored and Mechanized was not mentioned.

Added Later:
Of the 7 RAPID Divisions used in calculation here, 3 are new conversion. We initially had 4 RAPIDS. Also, each of them had an integral R&S Battalions. These R&S Battalions are part of The Mechanized Regiment. So,if I take only 4 RAPIDS and their integral R&S Battalions into consideration, the total number of Mechanized Regiments*** will be 36. Add two battalions in pure ATGM role, that takes it to 38. Interestingly, the article by Lt. Gen Kamal Matinuddin (retd.) mentions 12th Division as RAPID, and this was in 2002. The balance 2 (out of 40) may be part of this Division. But this is pure guess work.

Assuming the total of 40 Mechanized Battalions holds good, we still need 9 new Mechanized Battalions to equip the new RAPID conversions. Also, 6 additional Armored Regiments will be required.

*** For the uninitiated, The Brigade of Guards and The Mechanized Regiments are the two mechanized regiments of IA.
Last edited by rohitvats on 03 Oct 2009 13:51, edited 2 times in total.

Rahul M
Forum Moderator
Posts: 16834
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 21:09
Location: Skies over BRFATA
Contact:

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 02 Oct 2009 23:45

off the top of my head, isn't the grand total of mech regiments 40 ?

ParGha
BRFite
Posts: 881
Joined: 20 Jul 2006 06:01

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ParGha » 03 Oct 2009 00:39

Rahul M wrote:off the top of my head, isn't the grand total of mech regiments 40 ?

Yes, about 40 battalions or so: a little less than half from the Brigade of the Guards and a bit more than half from the Mechanized Infantry Regiment.

rohitvats
BR Mainsite Crew
Posts: 7699
Joined: 08 Sep 2005 18:24
Location: Jatland

Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 03 Oct 2009 01:53

And IIRC, there are couple of battalions in the Brigade of Guards which still retain the ATGM Battalions role? I remember detachments from 17 Guards ?) being used in ATGM role in Kargil and were attached to various formations.


Return to “Trash Can Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 32 guests