Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Surya
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 08 Nov 2009 09:13

Pargha

Its not a junior.

I am not talking about some Lt here. I am talking about someone who joined the army in mid 70s, has spent yrs in NE, IPKF, J&K,Siachen, SG, SF and more.

There is one view that the army had gone soft in the 70s and early 80s and Sri Lanka sorely exposed that.


Agree on your other post
Last edited by Surya on 08 Nov 2009 09:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 09:23

To comment objectively on relative degree of challenges, dangers and difficulties encountered during 1971, IPKF, Kargil, Siachen and CI, one has to have had the experience of all these hostile operating environments. Therefore, it is obvious that those who have not experienced 1971 or IPKF and that too upfront would not be in a position to comment and whatever they may opine, would be mere conjectures. There are still many who have experienced all.

A war cannot be compared to CI since the operating environments are different. One is with a predicted environment (to some extent) while the other is not so predictable. One is fraught with the danger of shot and shell, while the other with IEDs and their like. Yet, in both the environments, one is not too sure when one would turn out to be unlucky.

In war, death is more assured, in CI it is by chance or sheer bad luck.

Both war and CI are nasty.

Those who joined in 1971, are not Cols but Lt Gens today.

To understand Kargil and why young officers were killed, one has to understand how a battle is conducted and also the terrain. Statistics and emotions alone is no indicator that it was only the junior who braved it out and the senior officers did not play their part. My AQ, who had become a 2IC and a Lt Col, was one of the first to have died in Kargil while leading his men! And a Lt Col is a senior rank.

In Kargil, because of the narrow ridge line and sheer rock faces, it would be incorrect to surmise that one could lead classical infantry attacks. Attacks were in echelons and not even a section could be deployed in attack. Yet, given the IA tradition of leading from the front, it was not unusual that the platoon commander (a young officer) led the assault. The Company Commanders and the Battalion Commander were not too far behind either. It is but obvious that those who faced the brunt were the ones who got killed.

I appreciate the angst, but one has to understand with modern amenities and easier working conditions there is a drop in the desire to accept hardship as a matter of course, be it in civilian life or military life. Fragging is but a manifestation of this. It is also a truism that most of the soldiers come from a hardier stock than the officer and if they are prone to ‘snap’, then obviously, there is some truth that life has become softer and people have got accustomed not to accept the deprivations of service life!

The ‘oldies’ would have been soft too, if they had the amenities and working conditions of today. They did not have and so they roughed it out. Further, attitudinal change has taken place. It was more authoritarian before and senior officers were the law and so one could not take life on the fly. Indiscipline that are reported in the newspaper are but manifestation of softness and the egalitarian conditions that has crept in.

The CI Ops has been going on for years, but indiscipline and fragging are new phenomenon. The mental robustness apparently has taken a toss.

The issue of 'freedom' and 'harm's way' are terms that are not so applicable as it is in the US. The Indian mentality and the Indian stoic underscores the issue that it is not a matter of 'freedom' (as is understood elsewhere), it is a matter of our Nation and freedom is inherent in it. As far as Harm's Way is concerned, the Indian officer and soldier does not give much thought to that since when they join, they take it that they will have to be in Harm's Way if they are to protect their Nation. It is but a part of life to them. Whatever the equipment, modern or ancient, the IA fights with the same dare as was before since tradition and ethos spurs them on.

In the 1971 War, my father (a retired army officer, WW II Burma) who had suffered unfortunately a heart attack at that time, could just send me a post card. It had just this message - Don't be a coward. Go fight and do us proud. You will have no place otherwise in this house! It was a great motivator and I cared not if I died! I had the blessing of my family! That is India! I carried this postcard on a raid 9 miles into POK and yes I was scared, but I was determined that I would not let my father, family, my unit, regiment and my Nation down!

The IA also marches 40+ kms with battle gear and more.

I would not be able to comment on foreign armies and their ethos and traditions since it would be theoretical an exercise. For instance, based on Marshall's 'Men Against Fire', the US Army changed its training method wherein the adopted the technique fire first and then ask questions. In CI, unless we are fired upon, we don't fire. Or, we don't have auto on our rifles and the highest rate of fire is semi auto, though the emphasis is on single shot!

Please call me Ray. I will be freer to comment.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby D Roy » 08 Nov 2009 09:47

The IA also marches 40+ kms with battle gear and more.


And can do that on an empty stomach if required.

So can the Indian farmer. In fact the Indian sub-continent has always been characterised by the people who slip from being peasants to soldiers and vice versa -A people with a decided talent for soldiering even in the midst of deprivation , contrary to the usual potrayal of the tolerant and submissive 'hindooo'. if anybody thinks this is wrong just take a bus in Haryana or Bihar or even Karnataka. the co-passengers are anything but docile.( yes this is a metaphor)

it is one of those ironies of history that this place was colonised for almost a 1000 years. However the colonised mindset diminishes with each generation and in the future at least the young will stop viewing western nations with any diffidence/deference whatsoever.Maybe the west realizes this. maybe the chinese are already 'calibrated' in their scheme of things and that's why they find it easier to deal with them and promote them through the western sociology project aka the media of the 'free world'.

coming back to topic. i think given the fact that India will continue to be have a massive agrarian population for sometime to come, the supply of 'well done' soldier material will not be in short supply. On the officer front the semi-rural areas will pick up the slack created due to new urban proclivities. many rurban and even rural areas will start throwing up officers who would have had at least some computer experience and exposure to english thanks to the increasing desire to have access to these things in every segment of Indian society.

The urban areas may also see the rise of an 'adventure seeking spirit' that may lead to a critical mass of enthusiatic youngsters joining the officer cadre.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pmund » 08 Nov 2009 16:08

On a lighter vein on this thing abt going soft... isn't that what all gen-p (previous) officers tell gen-n (now) officers. Abt how pathetic the new lot is ... 'Yo bluuudy sissies, u aint seen life yet... u were still pissing in ur pants when..." I guess the times have changed, and with it the character of the forces. It's true a large section of officers now are seeking out comfort, wheras the old lot took the pain and the rigours as a way of life because they knew that was all they were going to get. The new lot knows there is a different world out there, that they remain stuck in an unequal world. That they dont get the best of facilities not because the babus cannot buy it for them but because they will not. But i dont believe getting better tents, food that tastes like food, quicker medevacs and air-drops for home leave doesnt makes our soldiers soft. The young lot is as tough as the desert veterans of '71 and the paras who jumped into the other side of the meghna. We don't have to look further than Kargil. And fragging was always a part of any military, i guess. The americans only gave it a smart name after 'Nam. Even the great Manekshaw had a close shave when he was a colonel. A naib subedar threatened to gun down Sam in his tent. And what did the great Sam Bahadur do? He gave the soldier a carbine and put him on guard duty outside his tent. This is from the horse's mouth, by the way.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rishi » 08 Nov 2009 16:12

RayC wrote:In the 1971 War, my father (a retired army officer, WW II Burma) who had suffered unfortunately a heart attack at that time, could just send me a post card. It had just this message - Don't be a coward. Go fight and do us proud. You will have no place otherwise in this house! It was a great motivator and I cared not if I died! I had the blessing of my family! That is India! I carried this postcard on a raid 9 miles into POK and yes I was scared, but I was determined that I would not let my father, family, my unit, regiment and my Nation down!
.


Sir, any chance of such battle tales being unclassified? Or is there a public description of this already somewhere

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 21:11

pmund wrote:On a lighter vein on this thing abt going soft... isn't that what all gen-p (previous) officers tell gen-n (now) officers. Abt how pathetic the new lot is ... 'Yo bluuudy sissies, u aint seen life yet... u were still pissing in ur pants when..." I guess the times have changed, and with it the character of the forces. It's true a large section of officers now are seeking out comfort, wheras the old lot took the pain and the rigours as a way of life because they knew that was all they were going to get. The new lot knows there is a different world out there, that they remain stuck in an unequal world. That they dont get the best of facilities not because the babus cannot buy it for them but because they will not. But i dont believe getting better tents, food that tastes like food, quicker medevacs and air-drops for home leave doesnt makes our soldiers soft. The young lot is as tough as the desert veterans of '71 and the paras who jumped into the other side of the meghna. We don't have to look further than Kargil. And fragging was always a part of any military, i guess. The americans only gave it a smart name after 'Nam. Even the great Manekshaw had a close shave when he was a colonel. A naib subedar threatened to gun down Sam in his tent. And what did the great Sam Bahadur do? He gave the soldier a carbine and put him on guard duty outside his tent. This is from the horse's mouth, by the way.



Please understand the IA is not 'this is my rifle and this is my gun. This is for fighting this is for fun'.

Fragging, for your info has never been a part of the IA and I have served long enough to know. Things were so lousy then, it should have been there! Yet, it was not there!

I have been there, done that! ;)

How long have you served?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 21:32

Rishi wrote:
RayC wrote:In the 1971 War, my father (a retired army officer, WW II Burma) who had suffered unfortunately a heart attack at that time, could just send me a post card. It had just this message - Don't be a coward. Go fight and do us proud. You will have no place otherwise in this house! It was a great motivator and I cared not if I died! I had the blessing of my family! That is India! I carried this postcard on a raid 9 miles into POK and yes I was scared, but I was determined that I would not let my father, family, my unit, regiment and my Nation down!
.


Sir, any chance of such battle tales being unclassified? Or is there a public description of this already somewhere


Never!

It will be dressed up so as to look good!

It is a universal phenomenon! Don't blame the IA alone!

Is the Kargil Commission Report true? And yet done by a civilian non governmental body!

If you are interested in my Regimental history and what was done read Forefront Forever by Longer!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 08 Nov 2009 21:57

RayC... would like to differ from you on this fragging issue... in my opinion this is not any sign of weakness / softness...
fragging has seen a spike, post onset of terrorism in J&K. this was kind of war that army had not seen before ... this kind of constant tension and stress was never there prior to 1989. The operations were conventional as in 47,62, 65 , 71 etc. this constant tension/stress coupled with a generally insensitve government are in my opinion responsible for increased incidence of fragging etc.. not any inherent weakness/softness.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 08 Nov 2009 23:17

manjgu wrote:RayC... would like to differ from you on this fragging issue... in my opinion this is not any sign of weakness / softness...
fragging has seen a spike, post onset of terrorism in J&K. this was kind of war that army had not seen before ... this kind of constant tension and stress was never there prior to 1989. The operations were conventional as in 47,62, 65 , 71 etc. this constant tension/stress coupled with a generally insensitve government are in my opinion responsible for increased incidence of fragging etc.. not any inherent weakness/softness.


How long has there been insurgency/ terrorism in our country? It was there for a very long time starting from the NE and then for years and years in J&K!

and when did fragging start? There was no spike actually. It was not there before!

The govt has been insensitive from the time of Kingdom Come. No real news, actually! It still is!

There was no stress in the army before?

That is news!

Wars and being on the LC was as smooth as drinking a milkshake?

If that is so, let's have a war and finish this CI!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 09 Nov 2009 02:02

Indian soldier killed in Pakistani shelling
RayC sir,
Other than the Political will, is there any reason why the IA does NOT retaliate, when one of their OWN dies HELPLESSLY? I have read time and again, that IA does not retaliate, because we choose to play by the book and not violate the cease fire agreement, and the Babus talking big that we will retaliate in a big way but no actions - o yea except for a govt job for the next kin, and a 1 lakh amount with a medal... Boils my blood to see them die without putting up a fight :x ... After incidents like this, I wouldn't be surprised if more junior officers turn around and start taking their frustrations out on their superiors for not protecting the morale of their fellow officers!!! We ain't RUSSIA! who'll only stick to the commie ways and look sideways even when the target is under their nose, because they didn't have orders to take them out... Self Defense should be a mortal right for any person serving in uniform... Never fire until fired upon by others.. BUT ALWAYS FIRE WHEN BEING FIRED UPON.. Times like this, really wish that they take a babu and put his ass in the line of fire to see how it feels to DO NOTHING!!!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sid_ashar » 09 Nov 2009 04:45

Craig Alpert wrote:Indian soldier killed in Pakistani shelling
RayC sir,
Other than the Political will, is there any reason why the IA does NOT retaliate, when one of their OWN dies HELPLESSLY? I have read time and again, that IA does not retaliate, because we choose to play by the book and not violate the cease fire agreement, and the Babus talking big that we will retaliate in a big way but no actions - o yea except for a govt job for the next kin, and a 1 lakh amount with a medal... Boils my blood to see them die without putting up a fight :x ... After incidents like this, I wouldn't be surprised if more junior officers turn around and start taking their frustrations out on their superiors for not protecting the morale of their fellow officers!!! We ain't RUSSIA! who'll only stick to the commie ways and look sideways even when the target is under their nose, because they didn't have orders to take them out... Self Defense should be a mortal right for any person serving in uniform... Never fire until fired upon by others.. BUT ALWAYS FIRE WHEN BEING FIRED UPON.. Times like this, really wish that they take a babu and put his ass in the line of fire to see how it feels to DO NOTHING!!!


http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/stor ... k%20Kapoor

I wonder if the journalists have the attention span to remember these words from September and quiz him during his next public appearance. His words from then sound pretty hollow.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby a_kumar » 09 Nov 2009 06:48

On a similar topic (suicides), I was surprised to find that US Army numbers (Doesn't include Marines I believe) are pretty high.

According to CNN
2004 : 67
2005 : 87
2006 : 106
2007 : 115
2008 : 140
2009 : 117

:eek:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Jagan » 09 Nov 2009 07:08

Indian Numbers here

http://164.100.47.132/LssNew/psearch/QR ... qref=71419

Code: Select all

                    2006      2007      2008      2009
   Suicide Fratr-   Suicide Fratr-   Suicide Fratr-   Suicide
Army   129   13   118   07   124   03   41   01
Air Force   24   00   21   00          25   01          06   00
Navy   01         00   03   00   02   00   01   00

Total:   154         13   142   07          151   04          48     01



In other words

Year Suicides - Fratricides
2006 154 13
2007 142 07
2008 151 04
2009 48 01

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 09 Nov 2009 07:13

so I was correct !

jagan, is info for the CPO's engaged in COIN available ?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Jagan » 09 Nov 2009 07:55

Rahul M wrote:so I was correct !

jagan, is info for the CPO's engaged in COIN available ?


unfortunately no. even I stumbled on this only recently - maybe a couple of weeks ago.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby a_kumar » 09 Nov 2009 08:03

General Question : Are there counselors or psychiatrists attached to the units in combat or garrisons?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 09 Nov 2009 10:02

Craig Alpert wrote:Indian soldier killed in Pakistani shelling
RayC sir,
Other than the Political will, is there any reason why the IA does NOT retaliate, when one of their OWN dies HELPLESSLY? I have read time and again, that IA does not retaliate, because we choose to play by the book and not violate the cease fire agreement, and the Babus talking big that we will retaliate in a big way but no actions - o yea except for a govt job for the next kin, and a 1 lakh amount with a medal... Boils my blood to see them die without putting up a fight :x ... After incidents like this, I wouldn't be surprised if more junior officers turn around and start taking their frustrations out on their superiors for not protecting the morale of their fellow officers!!! We ain't RUSSIA! who'll only stick to the commie ways and look sideways even when the target is under their nose, because they didn't have orders to take them out... Self Defense should be a mortal right for any person serving in uniform... Never fire until fired upon by others.. BUT ALWAYS FIRE WHEN BEING FIRED UPON.. Times like this, really wish that they take a babu and put his ass in the line of fire to see how it feels to DO NOTHING!!!


There are restrictions laid down as to who has the authority to open which type of weapon. For instance, arty cannot be opened on the orders of a post commander and things like that. MMGs can be. In the 1970s, even MMGs would require a Corps Cdr's order. Things are much better these days.

I would not be too sure that nothing is done.

However, the aim is not to escalate the issue beyond a limit.

No I don't think junior officers will take out their frustration in the manner you have suggested. It is because of the sense of discipline regimental spirit and traditions. If they did, then it would not be an Army but a mob. Frustration is not confined to any rank. Everyone has feelings. However, discipline overcomes such negative feelings. If everyone gave way to their frustration, then it would lead to chaos and would be ideal for the enemy.

In the CI environment (not LC), one cannot kill just for the sake of killing and one does not know who is a terrorist and who is not. Therefore, it is only when one is fired upon can one know who is a terrorist and who is not. One cannot fire just because one suspects someone to be a terrorist.

If you kill innocents, then more will turn to the terrorist cadre.


Psychiatrists are at the Base Hospitals.

Gen Kapoor cannot declare war. It is a Govt decision. He can only indicate that things can get worse for Pakistan!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 09 Nov 2009 11:41

RayC.. i think you did not get my point. I never said that there was no stress before things heated up in J&K.. stress has always been there but it was ( qualitatively ) of a far greater magnitude ( and of a different nature) and on a ongoing basis ( in terms of time). Far greater % of forces were undergoing this stress than in the past. Further, with an active media there is far greater focus on such things.

Some kind of softness will naturally happen as there is general material progress ( i mean the generation of officers before you would have been also complaining about softness of your generation). I mean each generation routinely complains about lack of respect, discipline, toughness etc in younger generation.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 09 Nov 2009 11:58

manjgu wrote:RayC.. i think you did not get my point. I never said that there was no stress before things heated up in J&K.. stress has always been there but it was ( qualitatively ) of a far greater magnitude ( and of a different nature) and on a ongoing basis ( in terms of time). Far greater % of forces were undergoing this stress than in the past. Further, with an active media there is far greater focus on such things.

Some kind of softness will naturally happen as there is general material progress ( i mean the generation of officers before you would have been also complaining about softness of your generation). I mean each generation routinely complains about lack of respect, discipline, toughness etc in younger generation.


Maybe I did not get your drift.

It is not the materialism alone, it is the egalitarian approach that is diluting the effort.

The IA is today too PC!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 09 Nov 2009 14:16

Check out the new Indian Army site: http://www.indianarmy.nic.in/

Looks suave! :D
Finally these NIC guys seem to be getting some aesthetic sense.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby krishnan » 09 Nov 2009 14:51

Dmurphy wrote:Check out the new Indian Army site: http://www.indianarmy.nic.in/

Looks suave! :D
Finally these NIC guys seem to be getting some aesthetic sense.


Portal Design and Development Partner

M/S Createch Software Pvt. Ltd, New Delhi

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 09 Nov 2009 22:59

RayC wrote:There are restrictions laid down as to who has the authority to open which type of weapon. For instance, arty cannot be opened on the orders of a post commander and things like that. MMGs can be. In the 1970s, even MMGs would require a Corps Cdr's order. Things are much better these days.

I would not be too sure that nothing is done.

However, the aim is not to escalate the issue beyond a limit.

No I don't think junior officers will take out their frustration in the manner you have suggested. It is because of the sense of discipline regimental spirit and traditions. If they did, then it would not be an Army but a mob. Frustration is not confined to any rank. Everyone has feelings. However, discipline overcomes such negative feelings. If everyone gave way to their frustration, then it would lead to chaos and would be ideal for the enemy.

In the CI environment (not LC), one cannot kill just for the sake of killing and one does not know who is a terrorist and who is not. Therefore, it is only when one is fired upon can one know who is a terrorist and who is not. One cannot fire just because one suspects someone to be a terrorist.

If you kill innocents, then more will turn to the terrorist cadre.


Psychiatrists are at the Base Hospitals.

Gen Kapoor cannot declare war. It is a Govt decision. He can only indicate that things can get worse for Pakistan!

Ray sir- with all due respect, to the army and their principles it is my understanding that the basic ROE states that one can fire when being fired upon. Agreeing to what to say about CI, on the LC our troops have hardly fired and in most cases self defense. They are always on the receiving end, only bcoz the porkis like to provide cover fire so the kaffirs can infiltrate the land of the snake charmers. It is my knowledge, that while the IA is being pinned down, they don't retaliate, becoz their focus is on killing the terrorists who are trying to get through, however would it be too much to shut them up by providing arti, and air support to wipe their post and then see how long it will take them to send out the next wave. If you bend them, they won't break, but if you break them they won't dare to send out the next wave.
I fully understand and agree, that wars aren't won on emotion alone, and that every soldier is trained to shake off a loss and take revenge in the battlefield, however when the opportunity is rarely or in our case ALMOST NEVER given, sooner or later, the IA will break and give them a reply they won't forget! I think all our FOB should be told to observe the ceasefire, however they should also be told, that if they take fire, retaliate in a way that the enemy WILL NOT RECOVER... Case in point (Israel, US, Russia - of course barring the political scenarios)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 10 Nov 2009 01:11

Do you really believe the India does not retaliate?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 10 Nov 2009 02:40

Permission to speak freely sir, judging by the news report, and the repeated action of TSP it certainly seems that way...
However If I stand corrected, nothing would do me more proud.. The ground reality is quite different and on that note I'd like to quote what Elenor Roosevelt said "Great minds discuss ideas, Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people." ~ A toast to the brave souls - Carpe Diem!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 10 Nov 2009 05:13


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 10 Nov 2009 11:48

a_kumar wrote:General Question : Are there counselors or psychiatrists attached to the units in combat or garrisons?


Every Bn has religuous teacher/priest of rank Subedar attached. These guys perform the job.

Craig Alpert wrote:....Agreeing to what to say about CI, on the LC our troops have hardly fired and in most cases self defense. They are always on the receiving end,...


That is certainly not the case. Throughout the 1990s and uptill current ceasefire there was a DAILY war of attrition on LoC by the artillery and likely small arms - this was from both sides.

It serves our interest that the current ceasefire holds - if this goes out of control then the Pakis will get excuse to provide fire cover to ghuspaiths.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 10 Nov 2009 12:00

Craig,

With due regards to your sentiment, I think it would be incorrect to feel that we in the IA are pacifists!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 10 Nov 2009 17:16

a_kumar wrote:General Question : Are there counselors or psychiatrists attached to the units in combat or garrisons?


Army Medical Corps (AMC) has doctors speacilized in the Psychiatry. These are not attached to combat units and generally in bigger hospital. They may be deputed on Temporary Duty (TD) to Field Ambulances/Section Hospitals. Field Ambulances are intrinsic to a Division in Indian Army and consists of personnel from AMC.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sachin » 10 Nov 2009 22:44

Aditya G wrote:Every Bn has religuous teacher/priest of rank Subedar attached. These guys perform the job.

If my understanding is correct, "JCO Religious Teacher" is in no way a person can give a "medical" psychological treatment. He is more of a Pandit-ji/Moulavi/Granthi who can give some solace in a "religious" manner. He is more of a person who can motivate troops by harping upon their religion/community history, holy books etc.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 10 Nov 2009 23:00

Sachin wrote:
Aditya G wrote:Every Bn has religuous teacher/priest of rank Subedar attached. These guys perform the job.

If my understanding is correct, "JCO Religious Teacher" is in no way a person can give a "medical" psychological treatment. He is more of a Pandit-ji/Moulavi/Granthi who can give some solace in a "religious" manner. He is more of a person who can motivate troops by harping upon their religion/community history, holy books etc.


That understanding is correct. Medical officers attached with Infantry units are called Regimental Medical Officers (RMO). These fellows are MBBS qualified.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pmund » 11 Nov 2009 00:02

Regarding ROE, i remember an incident in Skardu in 1997. Our guys had flattened several bunkers on the Paki side after being hit by an arty barrage, evidently to push in some jihadi ********. Brig Jasbir Liddar, who conducted the counterattack, officially said that the army was glad that they had finally been given a "free hand to retaliate as and when the situation demanded". Does that mean full-scale responses earlier needed approval from the babus in Delhi?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Jarita » 11 Nov 2009 04:29

Folks this is so cool. It might have been posted before.
Ofcourse the goras have listed 4 out of five as goras but look who is number 4 Yogendra Singh Yadav. Given our soldiers all five could have been Indians
5 Real Life Soldiers Who Make Rambo Look Like a Pussy
http://www.cracked.com/article_17019_5- ... pussy.html

Who Was He?

Yogendra Singh Yadav was a member of an Indian grenadier battalion during a conflict with Pakistan in 1999. Their mission was to climb "Tiger Hill" (actually a big-ass mountain), and neutralize the three enemy bunkers at the top. Unfortunately, this meant climbing up a sheer hundred-foot cliff-face of solid ice. Since they didn't want to all climb up one at a time with ice-axes, they decided they'd send one guy up, and he'd fasten the ropes to the cliff as he went, so everyone else could climb up the sissy way. Yadav, being awesome, volunteered.

Half way up the icy cliff-o'-doom, enemies stationed on an adjacent mountain opened fire, shooting them with an RPG, then spraying assault-rifle fire all over the cliff. Half his squad was killed, including the commander, and the rest were scattered and disorganized. Yadav, in spite of being shot three times, kept climbing.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby A Sharma » 11 Nov 2009 06:42

Army looks for advanced armoured personnel carriers

The RFI on army website mentions
"The Indian Army is desirous of procuring Wheeled Armoured Personal Carrier for employing in United Nation Missions."

:?: :?:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Brando » 11 Nov 2009 17:26

A Sharma wrote:Army looks for advanced armoured personnel carriers

The RFI on army website mentions
"The Indian Army is desirous of procuring Wheeled Armoured Personal Carrier for employing in United Nation Missions."



Sounds a LOT like "We ultimately want to buy MOWAG's Piranha APCs but we'll do the whole RFI-Tender song and dance regardless." Why don't they just call General Dynamics/MOWAG already ?

I just hope there is no RFI for ATGM's in the near future because they liked the $200,000 Javelin !

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Brando » 11 Nov 2009 18:26



If they are serious about procuring an advanced APC, they should tie up with Sweden and BAE to revive the Spitterskyddad Enhets Platform (SEP) APC and bring that platform to maturity as it is truly an unique solution. It beats having another LAV-III/Piranha 8x8 copy.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 11 Nov 2009 22:37


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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Rahul M » 12 Nov 2009 06:42

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/11/dr ... -anti.html

Image
Developed by the Armament Research & Development Establishment (ARDE), Pune, new 84mm Lightweight Lancher (LWL) is a new recoilless manportable, shoulder-fired weapon for the infantry anti-armour profile. According to DRDO, the barrel of the weapon built using indigenously developed hybrid composites.


I think this is the same light-weight carl gustav we were discussing a few days back.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Raja Bose » 12 Nov 2009 07:23




DDMitis strikes in the article (3rd column, 2nd last para)

...."and those that can help commandos see through transparent objects."


Has the journalist heard of this equipment called the Human Eye? :lol:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 12 Nov 2009 21:40

From here: http://chhindits.blogspot.com/2009/11/armys-first-mountain-division-for-china.html

Also one of the brigades in the Allahabad-based 4 Div will be converted soon into an armoured brigade, while the other two brigades in the division would remain infantry brigades. The 4 Div is for the western sector and mainly overlooks Pakistan. An officer said that the move was being taken for rapidisation, as the 4 Div was part of 2 Corps, which is a 'Strike' Corps. The brigade will have two armoured and two mechanised units.


This ties in with other reports about the number of RAPID Divisions going up from 4 to 7. We now know which one is 5th RAPID. Also explains the news about production of BMP-II going up from 125 to 200 on request of IA. So, II Corps has 1 Armored+14th RAPID+4th RAPID. That is some serious capability. But still, we need to mechanize the Strike Corps completely.

And as for how the IA is getting more Mechanized Regiments, there are two possibilities: new battalions of Mechanized Regiment/Gaurds Regiment being raised. What this will do is free up Infantry Battalions (three in all) from the Bde converted to Mechanized role and these troops can be used for new Mountain Divisions raised. Of course, new Infantry Battalions will still have to be raised to account for additional battalions (of 18 total) required to fill the new divs in NE.

Other possibility is that some more battalions from other regiments are being converted to mechanized role and getting transferred to Mechanized Regiments/Brigade of Gaurds. This will also require new battalions to be raised to fill in for the the battalions lost to mechanization.

Just a thought: Since we need to raise many more mechanized battalions to acheive the goal of decent mechanization, why not designate another Infantry Regiment as mechanized? The Mahar Regiment, as a tribute to Gen.Sundarji, can be such a candidate.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 14 Nov 2009 10:01

A general view of the last Chinese army post is seen from the Indian side at the Indo-China border in Bumla, in the northeastern Indian state of Arunachal Pradesh, November 11, 2009. With ties between the two Asian giants strained by a flare-up over their disputed boundary, India is fortifying parts of its northeast, building new roads and bridges, deploying tens of thousands more soldiers and boosting air defences. Picture taken November 11, 2009.

Image


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