Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Anoop
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Anoop » 29 Dec 2009 10:24

somnath wrote: Its not just about support arms...Does the IA need each platoon or company commander to be in the same bracket of "elite" officers? To me, for a lot of the "less elite" kids, a career option in the IA which is 5 years commitment + 2 years paid study leave has a fair chance of being up there in their options list..

We can keep bemoaning the lack of commitment in today's youth, rank parities or disparities, and keep insisting that every single of the 30k officers "short" need to be a potential FM Sam Manekshaw in the making..Or we can smell the coffee and reorient given the realities and constraints...


What is this about "elite" officers and potential Field Marshals?? There is a basic level of competence required of all officers and that's all that's insisted upon, whether they are from the PC or the SSC. The cream will rise to the top, at least most of the time. Where does it say that the current situation of officer shortage is due to the IA's insistence that all officers have to be FM material?

A 5 year commitment + 2 years paid study leave is a drain on the exchequer because the organization that spends time and resources to train an officer cannot recoup its investment in such a short time. It takes time to learn the ropes and function as a leader; just when they are becoming independent, if they leave, who will take their place? Btw, the current SSC tenure is 10 + 4, not 7 years. According to the article, even decreasing it to 12 years means the IA will have to take a hit in terms of investment vs. return.

A lot of countries, including most tellingly, Israel, make do with reservist officers and troops even for elite formations (paras)...I dont see why IA cannot make do with an expanded SSC cadre!


Israel cannot have a shortage of officers due to the conscript nature of its armed forces. The point is hence moot.

RayC
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 29 Dec 2009 10:52

A Young Officer does the YOs course and may do other courses in the first 5 years of his career. He also has to remain in the unit to understand the regimental ethos as also learn battlecraft during exercises to understand the unit's role in battle.

Therefore, as I see it, a 5 years tenure is too short for release.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sanjaychoudhry » 29 Dec 2009 20:56

First indigenously built nuclear submarine launched; indigenous MBT Arjun and T-90 Bhishma tanks inducted; IAF gets eye in the sky

YEAR-END REVIEW – 2009

Ministry of Defence

The country’s march towards indigenization and strengthening of the Armed Forces through modernization and state-of-the-art weapons acquisitions were the highlights of the Ministry of Defence during the year 2009. The Navy took a giant leap with the launching of the first indigenously built nuclear propelled strategic submarine named ‘Arihant’ in July. The Indian Navy is well on its way to acquire a lethal punch in the years ahead when it gets the first indigenous aircraft carrier. The keel for the carrier was laid in Kochi in February. The Navy also received the first batch of three MiG-29K fighter jets. The Air Force got a big boost when the first of the three AWACS, the IAF’s eye in the sky, joined its fleet in May. The Army’s focus during the year was on indigenization with the induction of locally built MBT Arjun and T-90 Bhishma tanks.

To facilitate the indigenous defence industry and fast track acquisitions by transfer of technology from foreign vendors, the Ministry of Defence issued an updated Defence Procurement Procedure-2009 in October. The year also fulfilled a longstanding aspiration of the Armed Forces personnel when the President inaugurated the Armed Forces Tribunal in August. The other significant events during the year include Rescue and Relief during cyclone Aila that hit West Bengal and humanitarian aid to war-ravaged Sri Lanka and the participation by a 400-member tri-service contingent in the French National Day Parade for the first time.

NUCLEAR POWERED SUBMARINE ‘ARIHANT’ LAUNCHED

India’s first indigenously built nuclear propelled strategic submarine named ‘Arihant’, meaning ‘Destroyer of the Enemies’, was launched on July 26 at the Ship Building Center, Visakhapatnam. India thus joined a select group of nations which have the technological capability to build and operate nuclear propelled submarines. Speaking on the occasion, Prime Minister Dr. Manmohan Singh, while congratulating the Director General of the ATV (Advanced Technology Vehicle) Programme, Vice Admiral (Retd) DSP Verma and all personnel associated with it for achieving this historic milestone in the country’s defence preparedness, noted that they overcame several hurdles and barriers to enable the country to acquire self-reliance in the most advanced areas of defence technology. The Prime Minister made a special mention of the cooperation extended by Russia.

The 6,000 ton ‘Arihant’ is undergoing trials for two years before its commissioning.

KEEL LAYING CEREMONY OF INDIGENOUS AIRCRAFT CARRIER

In February the keel was laid in Kochi for the first indigenous aircraft carrier, making India the fourth nation to join a select club of designers and builders of over 40,000 tonne Aircraft Carriers. The ship that will carry 30 aircraft including Mig-29Klub, LCA Tejas and Kamov Ka-31 helicopters and include a complement of 1,600 crew, is expected to add punch to the Navy’s capability when it joins the fleet in 2014. The carrier is the largest vessel for which construction has been undertaken at any Indian shipyard.

COMMISSIONING OF LANDING SHIP TANK INS AIRAVAT etc.

INS Airavat, the third Landing Ship Tank (Large) of the Shardul class was commissioned in May. As a platform designed for amphibious operations the ship can carry 10 Main Battle Tanks, 11 Combat Trucks and 500 Troops and has a considerable range and endurance at sea. With its weapon package, control systems and habitability conditions significantly enhanced from the earlier Magar class, Airavat delivers considerable punch and amphibious capabilities to the fighting prowess of the Indian Navy.

Four Fast Attack Craft namely INS Cora Divh, Cheriyam, Carnicobar and Chetlat were also commissioned over the year.

MiG-29K ARRIVAL

The first batch of three MiG-29K aircraft were received on December 04, 2009 at INS Hansa Goa. A total of 16 aircraft have been contracted from MiG RAC. These aircraft will be flown intensively after their acceptance.

CONTRACT FOR NAVY’S PATROL AIRCRAFT

A contract was signed in January with Boeing Industries for eight P-8I Long Range Maritime Patrol Aircraft worth $2.137 Billion. Delivery of aircraft is scheduled between 2013-15.

NAVAL ACADEMY AT EZHIMALA

The Naval Academy at Ezhimala, Kerala was commissioned on January 08, 2009. This Academy named INS Zamorin will be the largest officer-training Naval Academy in Asia. The Academy, spread over an area of 2452 acres along the North Malabar coastline, would be conducting a four year 'B Tech' programme in 'Electronics and Communications' and 'Mechanical Engineering' for naval cadets.

1ST BATCH OF WOMEN OBSERVERS JOIN INDIAN NAVY

Two lady officers were inducted as the first women Observers of the Indian Navy. Sub Lieutenant Seema Rani Sharma and Sub Lieutenant Ambica Hooda were awarded ‘Wings’ on November 20, 2009.

COASTAL SECURITY

In June a meeting chaired by the Defence Minister Shri AK Antony decided to set up a high level committee under the Chairmanship of the Cabinet Secretary to review the measures taken for coastal security at regular intervals. The other members of the committee will include the Chief of Naval Staff, Secretaries of all concerned Ministries such as Defence, Home, Petroleum and Chief Secretaries of Coastal States.

One significant achievement of the year has been the integration of all maritime stakeholders, including the several State and Central agencies into the coastal security matrix. Intelligence and information sharing has undergone a transformational change. The Indian Navy has established four Joint Operation Centres in all Naval Commands. All coastal security operations are now coordinated from the Joint Operations Centre, which are manned round the clock by Naval and Coast Guard teams. In addition, the state Marine Police and other agencies such as Customs, Intelligence Bureau, Ports etc are also networked with these centers. Besides the four Joint Operation Centers at Mumbai, Visakhapatnam, Kochi and Port Blair, each coastal district also has its own Operation Center for coordinating activity in their districts. The Coast Guard set up a station at Gandhinagar, Gujarat in December to strengthen maritime and coastal security in the northwestern region.

In a focused drive to enlist the support of fishermen for their role, awareness campaigns targeting coastal and fishing communities were conducted.

Recognizing that the Marine Police and CISF are not fully trained in maritime tasks, the Indian Navy has provided training assistance to all coastal states and CISF personnel. 263 CISF personnel have already undergone training at INS Chilka, the premier training establishment for sailors in the Indian Navy. Local Naval and Coast Guard elements in Tamil Nadu, West Bengal, and Maharashtra have also taken up similar training for the Marine Police. Nearly 1600 marine police personnel have been trained. This effort continues during joint patrols, in which the Navy and Coast Guard participate along with the Marine Police, CISF and Customs.

ANTI-PIRACY OPERATIONS

The Indian Navy maintained one ship on anti-piracy patrol duties in the Gulf of Aden throughout the year. During the year the Indian Naval warships escorted over 700 merchant vessels through the treacherous Gulf of Aden. About 14 piracy attempts were successfully thwarted by the Indian Navy.

From early November an additional ship has been deployed to patrol the maritime areas of Seychelles and Mauritius to counter the increasing cases of piracy in these areas.

FIRST OF IAF AWACS ARRIVES IN INDIA

The first of the three Indian Air Force AWACS (Airborne Warning and Control System) platform arrived in India from Israel in May. Three Mig-29 and Jaguar aircraft escorted the giant IL-76 configured in its new avatar, each that took off from an advanced fighter airbase of South Western Air Command (SWAC). Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, SWAC, Air Marshal KD Singh, Air Defence Commander Air Vice Marshal P Singh and the AOC Jamnagar, Air Commodore C Hari Kumar and air warriors of the airbase welcomed the crew of the AWACS aircraft that included the Commanding Officer of the first AWACS squadron, Group Captain B Saju. Their maiden touchdown on Indian soil also marked the first landing of the AWACS in an IAF airbase.

IAF REACTIVATES AIRFIELDS IN LADAKH

On September 18, 2009 an IAF AN-32 aircraft landed at Nyoma Advanced Landing Ground (ALG) in eastern Ladakh. Though helicopters have been landing at this ALG, this was for the first time that a fixed-wing aircraft has landed at the compacted airstrip of Nyoma, located 23 kms from the Line of Actual Control at an altitude of 13,300 feet. It marked the culmination of joint effort by the IAF and Indian Army to enable the IAF to operate in the inhospitable terrain of Leh-Ladakh region in support of the Army.

The landing came 15 months after an AN-32 landed at Daulat-Beg-Oldie (DBO), the highest airfield in the world situated at an altitude of 16,200 feet.

SU-30 INDUCTED IN TEZPUR

The Su-30 aircraft was formally inducted at Air Force Station Tezpur on 15 June 15, following the upgrade of the airbase in the northeast.

PRESIDENT INDUCTS VVIP BOEING BUSINESS JET 747/700 INTO IAF

President Pratibha Patil inducted the new state-of-the-art VVIP jet into the IAF on April 1, 2009. The President later undertook a flight to Assam aboard the new Boeing 747/700, christened as ‘Rajdoot’. The sparkling white 60-passenger-capacity aircraft, designed on the lines of the US President’s Air Force One and equipped with a wide range of security cover and latest communication devices, replaces the Boeing 737.

PRESIDENT FLIES SU-30, BOARDS AIRCRAFT CARRIER VIRAAT

The President of India, Smt Pratibha Devisingh Patil became the first woman President anywhere across the world to fly a fighter jet. She undertook the historic half-hour sortie on the Sukhoi-30 MKI fighter aircraft at the Lohegaon airbase, Pune on November 25. Next month the President boarded the INS Viraat, India’s only aircraft carrier, and witnessed the operation of Sea Harrier Vertical Take-Off and Landing fighter jets from its decks. The 50-year-old 28,000 tonnes aircraft carrier rejoined the Indian Navy in August after a year-long refit at the Cochin Shipyard.

MMRCA FLIGHT TRIALS BEGIN

The Indian Air Force began flight evaluation tests for the procurement of 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) in August. US' Boeing and Lockheed Martin, French d'Assault, Swedish SAAB, European consortium EADS and Russian MiG are vying for the deal worth around Rs. 48,000 crore ($10.2 billion). The IAF hopes to complete the tests by April, 2010.

IAF EFFORTS IN ECLIPSE STUDY

The Indian Air Force successfully undertook sorties to help Indian scientists study the total solar eclipse that took place on July 23. Two separate missions from Agra and Gwalior were flown along the path of the moon’s shadow, a mission that was deemed hugely successful by scientists associated with the experiment. While one AN-32 transport aircraft carrying scientific equipment, cameras and scientists that took off from Agra landed back after a three-hour flight, a Mirage-2000 trainer from Gwalior took spectacular images of the celestial spectacle from 40,000 feet. With weather being clear at the altitudes and coordinates planned by the IAF pilots, both AN-32 and Mirage-2000 pilots were able to accomplish the mission successfully.

ARMY RAISES FIRST ARMOURED REGIMENT OF MBT ARJUN

History of sorts was made on May 25 when the Indian Army proudly equipped itself with the first Armoured Regiment of the indigenously built Main Battle Tank, Arjun. The development marked the fruition of 35 years of research in self-reliance by dedicated Indian scientists against all odds. 16 tanks (cumulative 45 Arjun tanks) were handed over to Lt.Gen.D.Bhardwaj, DGMF, towards formation of the 1st Arjun regiment at a function in Avadi, Tamil Nadu. MBT Arjun is the state-of-art main battle tank designed and developed by the Combat Vehicles Research and Development Establishment (CVRDE), Avadi along with other DRDO and industrial partners. MBT Arjun is provided with excellent mobility, superior firepower and protection and its features are comparable to contemporary tanks operated by cavalries around the world.

INDIGENOUSLY BUILT T-90 ‘BHISHMA’ TANKS ROLL OUT

India rolled out its first batch of the indigenous, Russian-designed T-90 tanks in August, which will be the country’s main battle tank over the next three decades. The successor to the T-72 tanks, the T-90 - renamed Bhishma after the Mahabharat stalwart - is the one of the most advanced tanks in the world. It has night-fighting capability and can fire guided missiles from its turret. It is also designed to ensure protection of crew from radioactivity in the event of a nuclear attack. The Heavy Vehicles Factory at Avadi in Tamil Nadu will make 100 T-90 tanks annually over the next 10 years. The tank will be the spearhead of India's armoured corps and the mainstay of its offensive operations.

ARMY’S EFFORTS TO RESTORE NORMALCY IN J&K

The terrorist attacks in Jammu and Kashmir have drastically come down and infiltration has been largely checked, thanks to the strict vigil on the Line of Control maintained by the Indian Army. In view of the improved situation in the state, the Army withdrew two Divisions comprising closed to 30,000 troops.

THIRD SUCCESSFUL TEST OF BALLISTIC MISSILE INTERCEPTOR

India inched closer towards its endeavour to put in place its own home-grown Ballistic Missile Defence System by successfully carrying out the third Interceptor test on March 06, 2009 from the Integrated Test Range (ITR) at Wheeler Island in Orissa. The two-stage Interceptor Missile fitted with advanced systems hit the target enemy missile at 75 kms altitude. This third consecutive interception of Ballistic Missiles once again demonstrated the robustness of the Indian Ballistic Missile Defence (BMD) system.

DEFENCE PROCUREMENT PROCEDURE 2009 RELEASED

An updated and revised Defence Procurement Procedure-2009 was released in October 29, and it came into effect in November. It promotes indigenous defence industry, ensure transparency and accountability in all procurement cases and liberalizes Offset provisions to enable vendors to fulfil their obligations. The amended DDP-2009 introduced a new category named ‘Buy and Make (Indian)’ which enables indigenous private and public industry to enter into joint ventures with foreign suppliers by Transfer of Technology and not by Research and Development.

ARMED FORCES TRIBUNAL INAUGURATED

The long-awaited Armed Forces tribunal was inaugurated by the President Smt. Pratibha Devisingh Patil on August 07, 2009. Set up by an Act of parliament in December, 2007, the Armed Forces Tribunal has its Principal Bench in New Delhi and eight regional benches spread across the country. It has been followed with the setting up of the Tribunal’s regional benches in Chandigarh, Jaipur, Lucknow, Kolkata and Chennai. The Tribunal will have 15 courts in all, - three each in New Delhi, Chandigarh and Lucknow and one each in Jaipur, Mumbai, Kolkata, Guwahati, Chennai and Kochi.

Aggrieved armed forces personnel will now be able to appeal against sentences handed down by the court-martial. The Tribunal has the powers to grant bail to any person in military custody. The Armed Forces Tribunal provides a judicial forum for the redressal of grievances of about a 1.3 million strong armed forces personnel and another 1.2 million Ex-Servicemen.

RESCUE & RELIEF DURING ‘AILA’ CYCLONE etc.

Acting upon the request of the West Bengal government, the Ministry of Defence dispatched medical teams of the Armed Forces personnel to the devastating cyclone ‘Aila’ affected areas of North and South 24 Parganas districts of the state in June. Many columns of the Army and several divers from the Indian Navy were also engaged in providing relief and rescue. These teams provided medical aid to several thousand people in the Aila affected areas. 5,000 kgs of relief stores were also distributed in the flood affected areas, which include clothing, food items and tentage. Divers from Indian Navy and Army personnel rescued 450 marooned persons and evacuated them to safer areas. Armed Forces also pressed into service Gemini boats in cyclone affected areas to distribute relief materials. IAF also pressed the Mi-17 helicopters into service to provide aid to the affected people.

When parts of Andhra Pradesh and northern Karnataka were badly affected by floods in the first week of October, the Army, Navy and IAF carried out extensive operations, rescuing over 3,600 people. More than 4.5 tonnes of rations were distributed by the Army to the marooned people in the two flood affected states. The Air Force deployed 32 aircraft and helicopters, carrying out 340 sorties.. The Navy also deployed two Chetak helicopters and diving teams for flood rescue operations.

In February the IAF also launched Operation Humsafar to supply food and medicines to the snowbound remote areas of Doda district.

AID TO WAR-RAVAGED SRI LANKA

On the request of the Government of Sri Lanka, medical teams from Armed Forces were sent to war-ravaged northern Sri Lanka. Indian Air Force IL-76 transport aircraft airlifted several tones of medical aid to Colombo in March.

JOINT EXERCISES

The Indian Army conducted the joint exercise ‘YUDH ABHYAS-09’ with the US Army at Babina near Jhansi in October, towards coordinated peacekeeping and disaster relief operation. A Mechanised Infantry Battalion of Indian Army and 2nd Squadron of 14 CAV of 254 Stryker Brigade Combat Team comprising 325 US troops participated in this exercise. The Indian and Maldivian troops conducted ‘EKUVERIN-09’ exercise in Belgaum.

Exercise COPE INDIA 2009 was held in October at Agra between IAF and US Air Force. Six IAF Jaguars participated in a joint Air Exercise with the Royal Air Force of Oman at Thumrait, Oman the same month. Indian Navy’s Eastern Fleet Task Force comprising four warships carried out joint exercise ‘SIMBEX 09’ in March with the Singapore Navy. The Fleet also exercised with the US and Japanese Navies under the aegis of the MALABAR exercise. Additionally enroute, the fleet conducted exercises with the navies of Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, South Korea and Indonesia. On the other hand, a Western Fleet Task Force comprising four ships were deployed to Europe from May, 2009. The fleet ships touched over 15 ports and in addition to having dedicated joint operations with the Royal Navy and the French Navy under the codenames ‘Konkan’ and ‘Varuna’ the ships also conducted exercises enroute with 12 different navies viz. the Algerian Navy, Portugese Navy, German Navy, Turkish Navy, Israeli Navy, Russian Navy, Royal Netherlands Navy, Spanish Navy, Moroccon Navy, Hellenic Navy, Egyptian Navy and the Royal Navy of Oman.

Indian Naval warships and aircraft also conducted joint surveillance of the extensive Exclusive Economic Zone in the waters of Maldives, Mauritius and Seychelles. Our ships conducted coordinated patrols with the navies of Thailand and Indonesia.

SEPARATE PAY COMMISSION FOR ARMED FORCES ANNOUNCED, PAY HIKE PROPOSALS IMPROVED

In a New Year bonanza for the Armed Forces on January 1, 2009, the Prime Minister’s Office informed the Defence Ministry that the Armed Forces personnel would henceforth have a separate Pay Commission, which is delinked from the civilian pay panel. On April 21 the Government notified Pay Band-4A with a Grade Pay of Rs 8000 for Lieutenant Colonels and equivalents in Navy and Air Force, which benefitted about 15,000 officers. Later the Government approved higher wages under the Sixth Pay Commission for Lieutenant Generals and equivalent officers, putting them at par with the Director Generals of Police, a key demand of the Armed Forces. About 33 per cent of the total number of Lt Generals in the Army, Air Marshals in the IAF and Vice Admirals in the Navy, were granted the Higher Administrative Grade (HAG) Plus scales.

AERO INDIA 2009

The 7th Edition of Aero India, Asia’s premier Air Show, was held in Bengaluru from February 11 to 15, 2009. In size and number, this was the biggest air show, hosted by India so far. 592 exhibitors from 25 countries participated at the show. A number of aircraft including F-16, F-18, MiG-35D, Eurofighter, IJT, ALH Dhruv, AJT Hawk, C-17, Embraer 135 Business Jet Legacy 600, C-130J Hercules, Citation XLS,G 550, AN-12 Cargo and A-310 MRTT were on display. Defence Ministers of France, Peru, Bolivia, Surinam, Mongolia, Oman and Maldives came for the show. Besides high level delegations from 40 countries also attended the Show.

SAINIK SAMACHAR CENTENARY

The Armed Forces Journal ‘Sainik Samachar’ celebrated its Centenary on January 2, 2009. Sainik Samachar had started as Fauji Akhbar, an Urdu weekly on January 2, 1909, with an aim to provide Army personnel with ‘a summary of news with a military bias’. It was re-christened as Sainik Samachar on April 04, 1954. The Defence Minister Shri AK Antony released a Coffee Table Book ‘Soldiering On...’ on the occasion.

INDIAN ARMED FORCES CONTINGENT PARTICIPATES IN FRENCH NATIONAL DAY PARADE

A 400-strong contingent of the Indian Armed Forces comprising marching columns and a combined military band from the Army, Air Force and Navy participated in the French National Day parade on July 14, 2009 in Paris. This was the first time an Indian military contingent was accorded the honour. The contingent was commanded by Air Commodore RK Mathur.

ANTONY TAKES OVER AS DEFENCE MINISTER FOR THE SECOND TIME

Following the resounding win of the United Progressive Alliance in the April-May General Elections to the 15th Lok Sabha, Shri AK Antony took over as the Defence Minister for the second time on May 25, 2009. Shri Antony has been at the helm of the Defence Ministry since October 25, 2006.

APPOINTMENTS

Shri Pradeep Kumar took over as the Defence Secretary on July 31 following the superannuation of Shri Vijay Singh. Shri Kumar was already working as Secretary (Defence Production) in the Ministry of Defence. Earlier on May 31, Air Chief Marshal Pradeep Vasant Naik took charge as the 19th Chief of Air Staff from Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major and later the Navy got Admiral Nirmal Verma as its new chief, following the superannuation of Admiral Sureesh Chopra.

Eminent missile scientist Dr. Vijay Kumar Saraswat took over as the new head of the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) from Shri M Natarajan on September 1, 2009. Dr. Saraswat spearheaded the development of country’s strategic and tactical missile systems including the ‘Agni’ series of strategic missiles covering a range up to 3,000 kms.


http://pib.nic.in/release/release.asp?relid=56489

Ankit Desai
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Ankit Desai » 30 Dec 2009 03:59

Feud at the top in army- Gen. Kapoor versus Lt Gen. Singh

A full-fledged row has broken out in the military establishment between the two top generals of the Indian Army: the chief, General Deepak Kapoor, and his putative successor and the Eastern Command boss, Lt General V.K. Singh.


Ankit

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 30 Dec 2009 05:36

Army reworks war doctrine for Pakistan, China
NEW DELHI: The Army is now revising its five-year-old doctrine to effectively meet the challenges of a possible `two-front war' with China and Pakistan, deal with asymmetric and fourth-generation warfare, enhance strategic reach and joint operations with IAF and Navy.
.......
This gave ample opportunity to Pakistan to shore up its defences as well as adequate time to the international community, primarily the US, to intervene. The lack of clear directives from the then NDA government only made matters worse.

"A major leap in our approach to conduct of operations (since then) has been the successful firming-up of the cold start strategy (to be able to go to war promptly)," said Army chief General Deepak Kapoor, at a closed-door seminar on Tuesday.

The plan now is to launch self-contained and highly-mobile `battle groups', with Russian-origin T-90S tanks and upgraded T-72 M1 tanks at their core, adequately backed by air cover and artillery fire assaults, for rapid thrusts into enemy territory within 96 hours.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby mmasand » 30 Dec 2009 09:23

Craig Alpert wrote:Army reworks war doctrine for Pakistan, China
NEW DELHI: The Army is now revising its five-year-old doctrine to effectively meet the challenges of a possible `two-front war' with China and Pakistan, deal with asymmetric and fourth-generation warfare, enhance strategic reach and joint operations with IAF and Navy.
.......
This gave ample opportunity to Pakistan to shore up its defences as well as adequate time to the international community, primarily the US, to intervene. The lack of clear directives from the then NDA government only made matters worse.

"A major leap in our approach to conduct of operations (since then) has been the successful firming-up of the cold start strategy (to be able to go to war promptly)," said Army chief General Deepak Kapoor, at a closed-door seminar on Tuesday.

The plan now is to launch self-contained and highly-mobile `battle groups', with Russian-origin T-90S tanks and upgraded T-72 M1 tanks at their core, adequately backed by air cover and artillery fire assaults, for rapid thrusts into enemy territory within 96 hours.


Would this pave way for larger co-ordinated joint exercises with the IAF and Navy? The last one held in Feb near Bengal was merely weapons demo and coastal related.It would be nice to know that there is a joint strategy on paper incase of various 'cold start situations'.

Can someone shed light ....

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby manjgu » 30 Dec 2009 09:40

stating the intent is half the job... there must be capability as well to execute the intent?? ..

thrusts backed by arty and air cover !!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 30 Dec 2009 10:03

^^^ The IA has been going on about this "cold start" centric doctrine for some time now..But are the other services, espe the IAF, bought in the idea? As of now, at least per public info the IAF is quite recalcitrant about the doctrine and has not dedicated any assets "integral" to the battle groups as IA envisages..It would seem that to partially bypass the problem, IA is looking to buy chopper gunships of its own (apart from the IAF order for the same)..

ACtually it seems a bit incongruous for IA to have a war doctrine, IAF to presumably have another one, and for good measure IN a third doctrine..When it comes to that, it will be India that fights the war, shouldn't there be a combined arms doctrine for India? But to do that, you need a combined arms structure, and that is where in true Indian style, we have been "arguing" and arguing while every single self respecting military has already changed!!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby mmasand » 30 Dec 2009 10:21

the idea of a joint chief of staff floated mid last yr won't be a bad start to make the approach integral and also pool in resources...but who would get the job? Rotation was an idea floated during NDA on the JCS committee but failed miserably.Redundancy is the biggest budget constraint IMO.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sum » 30 Dec 2009 10:30

From Orbat:
#

We went through Indian Army battalion strength and came up just short of 1000 infantry, mechanized, armored, CI, field and AD artillery, engineer, and Scouts/Frontier Force battalions. In terms of manpower the PLA is still the largest in the world, about 1.4-million to India Army's 1.2-million, but in terms of first line combat/combat support battalions the Indian Army is the biggest in the world.
#

The reason you perhaps did not know this is that the Indian Army is not bothered to itself know the total number of combat/CS battalions. Of course the information is there in bits and pieces. But no one has put it together simply because (a) the Army refuses to do self-publicity; (b) Army does not consider such figures at all relevant.
#

Incidentally in terms of 10 battalions to a division, excluding CI troops who form the equivalent of five divisions, India has 50 division-equivalents as opposed to the official figure of 34 divisions plus two raising. There are simply a great many extra brigades and battalions.
#

This is the reason Mandeep has been saying that the two new divisions will come mainly from rationalization of extra units.


Echoes what Rohitvats-ji and other keep emphasizing about the hidden numbers of the IA.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby AdityaM » 30 Dec 2009 11:10

As per "cold start", IA will go in with smaller battle groups of a few armour (tanks) and infantry.
How does this work out against a full strength Paki defensive armour group?
Does it bank on the fact that the Pakis will not be able to herd together all their armour in time to counter indian thrust?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 30 Dec 2009 11:31

According to Livefist, IA is looking to procure cornershot system.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/12/indian-army-wants-cornershot-weapon.html

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Vinito » 30 Dec 2009 21:58

Gaur wrote:According to Livefist, IA is looking to procure cornershot system.

http://livefist.blogspot.com/2009/12/indian-army-wants-cornershot-weapon.html


the cornershot version comes in different flavours all the way from a regular 9mm handgun to a 40 mm grenade launcher. It has also been tested with a AT4 launcher and an AK series rifle.

IMHO a mix of the above version will offer the best lethality based on the required situations.

A 5.7 mm pistol may be a boon in CQB battles, but not battles will be fought in close contact or with enemies that dont don BPJ. thats where the big guns will play a pivotal role.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 31 Dec 2009 12:24

Craig Alpert wrote:Army reworks war doctrine for Pakistan, China
NEW DELHI: The Army is now revising its five-year-old doctrine to effectively meet the challenges of a possible `two-front war' with China and Pakistan, deal with asymmetric and fourth-generation warfare, enhance strategic reach and joint operations with IAF and Navy.
.......
This gave ample opportunity to Pakistan to shore up its defences as well as adequate time to the international community, primarily the US, to intervene. The lack of clear directives from the then NDA government only made matters worse.

"A major leap in our approach to conduct of operations (since then) has been the successful firming-up of the cold start strategy (to be able to go to war promptly)," said Army chief General Deepak Kapoor, at a closed-door seminar on Tuesday.

The plan now is to launch self-contained and highly-mobile `battle groups', with Russian-origin T-90S tanks and upgraded T-72 M1 tanks at their core, adequately backed by air cover and artillery fire assaults, for rapid thrusts into enemy territory within 96 hours.



Comments from Nightwatch, 12/30/09

India: Update. The Times of India reported today the Indian Army is revising its five-year-old doctrine to meet effectively the challenges of a possible 'two-front war' with China and Pakistan. The Army has identified five thrust areas that will propel the new doctrine – be ready for a two-front war, to optimize capabilities to fight asymmetric warfare including cyber and electronic warfare, to enhance strategic reach and capability to fight a war away from Indian shores particularly in the Indian Ocean Region, tri-services joint operations including space-based capability, and to achieve technological edge over the enemy, according to a military spokesman.


Work on the new war doctrine -- to reflect the reconfiguration of threat perceptions and security challenges -- is on under the aegis of the Shimla-based Army Training Command, headed by Lt-Gen A S Lamba, Times sources reported. The doctrinal revision is the next step after multiple war games during the past five years to practice the Army’s “pro-active” or “cold start” strategy to mobilize and move fast and strike hard. A review of warfighting doctrine is mandatory every five years, Brahmand.com reported.

The cold start strategy, including provisions for operations in NBC (nuclear-chemical-biological) warfare conditions, emerged from the 'harsh lessons' of Operation Parakram, during which the Army took just under a month to prepare 750,000 soldiers for war with Pakistan in January 2002, after the attack against the Indian Parliament by Pakistani Muslim terrorists in December 2001.

The Army has been developing and testing the new doctrine for nine years. In the past two years it began significant reinforcement of forces on the China border in eastern India and in the disputed Aksai Chin region, adjacent to Jammu and Kashmir State in the west.

The new doctrine assumes that in any conflict Pakistan and China will coordinate their military moves. Pakistan’s forces act as pawns in China’s drive for dominance of Asia. The news is that India perceives no reason to change its strategic assumptions and directions. The aim is to knock Pakistan out of a war through surprise, speed and combat power, before it can retaliate and before outside political intervention produces another inconclusive outcome.



And Paki Comments:

Gagan wrote:Some military analysis by the pakistani Nation newspaper: Mulaheza Farmaiye
Indian Military ready for war against China, Pakistan

India Army ready for war against China, Pakistan
Shimla-based Indian Army Training Command, headed by Lt-General A S Lamba is getting ready for something Indian Military never was ready before. Indian Air Force, Navy, and Army is ready to face Pakistan and China at the same time.
India's 1.13-million strong Military is now panning to handle two major war fronts at the same time. India considers Pakistan and China as part of the same camp. India knows the next war will be between India and Pakistan+China. India will get indirect support from America and Russia, but Indian Military will have to fight the two war at the same time.

...

China has used Pakistan for a long time to keep India busy. Now time has come for India to recognize a massive threat from China and Pakistan at the same time.
Indian Army chief General Deepak Kapoor emphasizes that India is ready for the successful firming-up of the cold start strategy (to be able to go to war promptly) in the multiple fronts against multiple different militias at the same time.
The plan is a full thrust assault into multiple enemies at the same time with massive Air Force superiority. If attacked by Pakistan and China at the same time, India will launch self-contained and highly-mobile `battle groups'', with Russian-origin T-90S tanks and upgraded T-72 M1 tanks at their core, adequately backed by far superior air cover and artillery fire assaults, for rapid thrusts into enemy territory within 96 hours

India plans to end the war decisively within the first 96 hours forcing the other sides into a fast submission of ceasefire.

...

The real war in that scenario will be between India and China while Pakistan will be used by China to create adequate disturbance for Indian Military.

That is the reason why Lt-General A S Lamba of Indian Army is so keen a massive thrust into Rawalpindi to quiet Pakistanis within 48 hours of the start of assault.
India's biggest advantage is the its software capabilities in integrating signal intelligence with ground intelligence. India will use algorithmic seek and scan technology to counter the Chinese threats in the North and possible Pakistani nuclear threat in the West.

...

(India Daily)

Read it in full. This has been lifted off Indian Daily it seems.


And
India Daily article:

LINK

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 31 Dec 2009 13:37

Errr...silly question alert.

What do army jawans do throughout the year when they're not on border watch or undergoing physical training or exercising? How much of free time do they have in a typical day? And how do they pass their free time?

Also, if possible, tell us about the IAF/Navy jawans too.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 31 Dec 2009 13:45

^^
I suppose most would have families? So, they would pass their time at their homes, watching saas bahu serials.
Others would pass their time in their respective lines (or barracks)?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sachin » 31 Dec 2009 14:12

Dmurphy wrote:How much of free time do they have in a typical day? And how do they pass their free time?

From what I have noticed.
1. Even when not in field area, there would be routine stuff like PT parade etc. So you have to get up early.
2. There would be regular parade sessions, weapons training and cleaning etc. during the morning hours. Clerks (babu log) would have to do their admin related job during the morning part of the day. Then for the regular soldiers there would also be duties like fire picquet, quarter guard, sentry points etc. Drivers would be busy with their own schedules etc.
3. After lunch break there seems to be a small break, after which it is time for the game parade. This also includes activities like cleaning up the camps etc. etc. Most of the officers and clerks how ever return quickly after lunch break (in PT dress) back to their offices so that they can finish their office backlogs ;).
4. Then there is some time to fresh up and their would be roll calls in the respective company H.Qs. By this time it would be some where like 7PM.
5. Guess after 7PM, it is time for a round in the NCO mess, dinner and some time to get ready for the next day (uniform maintenance etc.). Not every soldier in a regiment get a family accomodation.

Also, if possible, tell us about the IAF/Navy jawans too.

A close friend of mine was Air-frame technician in IAF. As per him, the ground crew will have to get up early so that the flights can be readied for take off. There would be early morning sorties, and they generally go by around 7AM-8AM. Before that all checkings needs to be completed and signed off. The sorties come back after an hour or so, and the pilots would report the problems they faced during the flight. The ground crew will have to sit and fix them.

As per my friend, how ever most of these activities would get over by around 1PM, then it is lunch time and a good rest. In the evening since my friend was a basket ball player it was time for him to practise. Then there would be regular roll call in the evening. As per him the work schedule is relaxed when compared to the Army. Once every 3 months, the air-man would have to do night guard duties.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 31 Dec 2009 14:15

Dmurphy wrote:Errr...silly question alert.

What do army jawans do throughout the year when they're not on border watch or undergoing physical training or exercising? How much of free time do they have in a typical day? And how do they pass their free time?

Also, if possible, tell us about the IAF/Navy jawans too.


In the Army whether you are a jawan or an officer, you do PT at 0600h for a hour or so. Then you go hve a bath and breakfast and then you go for training. It could be anything including specialised training depending upon your trade. Thereafter, for officers, it is back to the office. Then all have a lunch and looking into personal stuff. Then there is games (compulsory)?

Then all are free to go for their dinner and have a bath and so on!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 31 Dec 2009 14:17

In the Army whether you are a jawan or an officer, you do PT at 0600h for a hour or so. Then you go hve a bath and breakfast and then you go for training. It could be anything including specialised training depending upon your trade. Thereafter, for officers, it is back to the office. Then all have a lunch and looking into personal stuff. Then there is games (compulsory)?

Then all are free to go for their dinner and have a bath and so on.

I just discovered that Sachin has said it better than me!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Dmurphy » 31 Dec 2009 14:43

Thank you RayC, Sachin and well...Gaur (for the PJ) :D

OK...here's another one that came to my mind. Do Army Officers have official email ids too? something like name@indianarmy.nic.in perhaps?! :-?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ashish raval » 31 Dec 2009 14:50


What IA needs is very strong multi-layered air-defense network in the region bordering china. Himalaya's are trecherous place to cross so Chinese will try to find good places to launch attack on multiple locations which can be known from the locations along the borders where they are developing air-strips and infrastructure on chinese side. We need to infiltrate chinese intelligence by any means necessary. We also need massive army of UAV's and prepare tibetans and uighurs for a civil-war in the region. There should be some way of supplying arms to these people seeking independence. North-East region needs to be beefed up particularly Chicken's neck region which I believe will be of particular chinese interest in the event of war as it can cut the supply lines and given them the access to Bay of Bengal.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ParGha » 31 Dec 2009 19:18

AdityaM wrote:As per "cold start", IA will go in with smaller battle groups of a few armour (tanks) and infantry. How does this work out against a full strength Paki defensive armour group? Does it bank on the fact that the Pakis will not be able to herd together all their armour in time to counter indian thrust?


It is the main stumbling block about all new "light" formations - What happens when it runs into an older heavier formation? And it can it ever as mobile as older light formations (airborne/air-mobile/amphibious)? And if surprise, speed and attrition is the desired military objective, wouldn't air, rocket and long-range tube artillery suffice? There used to be a rather deprecatory saying about the US Army Light Divisions (mid1980s-1990s) by people who had served in other mechanized and light divisions: "Too light to stand and fight, too heavy to move and bite".

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 31 Dec 2009 19:28

and the DOGS BARK :lol:
Indian Army's two-front doctrine betrays hostile intent: Pak
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has said that Indian Army's new military doctrine including scenarios such as a two-front simultaneous war with both China and Pakistan "betrays a hostile intent" and a "jingoistic mindset".

Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said in a statement that the Indian Army's new military doctrine "betray a hostile intent as well as a hegemonic and jingoistic mindset which is quite out of step with the realities of our time".

Pakistan is prepared to defend itself in the face of all contingencies, Basit said. "No one should ever underestimate our capability and determination to foil any nefarious designs against the security of Pakistan," he said.

Indian Army officials have said that the doctrine, which is reviewed every five years at the Army's Shimla-based Training Command, will now include scenarios such as a two- front simultaneous war with both China and Pakistan.

Basit called on the world community to take "due notice of such statements".

He added: "Pakistan remains mindful of the threats posed to its security as well as the importance of promoting peace in South Asia."

The spokesman also told a weekly news briefing at the Foreign Office that Pakistan's desire for peace should not be mistaken for weakness.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 31 Dec 2009 19:31

Dmurphy wrote:Errr...silly question alert.

What do army jawans do throughout the year when they're not on border watch or undergoing physical training or exercising? How much of free time do they have in a typical day? And how do they pass their free time?

Also, if possible, tell us about the IAF/Navy jawans too.


PRACTISE

This is what I have often asked quite a few midle management and senior level defence personnel

The more you sweat in peace

The less you bled in war !!


K

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby soumik » 31 Dec 2009 19:43

the new doctrine calls for offensive actions in both the Himalayan and western theaters, this kind of operation is highly unlikely to be successful without adequate additions to the armor artillery and CAS assets of the army and the IAF, i.e not gonna happen unless the MoD babus actually get some weapon deals finalized.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 02 Jan 2010 12:51

And now this 'gem' from the Times of India, which is apparently blissfully unaware that the "Special Auxiliary Police" is in no way shape or form connected to the army.

Where has the DDM watch thread gone? :roll:


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 404167.cms

Army jawan kills two colleagues before shooting himself in Bihar
PTI
2 January 2010

AURANGABAD (Bihar): A 'drunk' Special Auxiliary Police jawan allegedly gunned down two of his colleagues before killing himself following a quarrel over a trivial issue in the district, police said today.

During patrolling in Khairi village, the jawan Fulwendra Singh entered into an argument with his colleagues fired from his official carbine killing Balkishore Singh and Anil Singh on the spot last night.

Police suspect that the jawan was in a drunken state. He later committed suicide by shooting himself, police said.

The three bodies were brought here for autopsy.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby atreya » 02 Jan 2010 13:10

ASPuar wrote:And now this 'gem' from the Times of India, which is apparently blissfully unaware that the "Special Auxiliary Police" is in no way shape or form connected to the army.

Where has the DDM watch thread gone? :roll:


http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 404167.cms

Army jawan kills two colleagues before shooting himself in Bihar
PTI
2 January 2010

AURANGABAD (Bihar): A 'drunk' Special Auxiliary Police jawan allegedly gunned down two of his colleagues before killing himself following a quarrel over a trivial issue in the district, police said today.

During patrolling in Khairi village, the jawan Fulwendra Singh entered into an argument with his colleagues fired from his official carbine killing Balkishore Singh and Anil Singh on the spot last night.

Police suspect that the jawan was in a drunken state. He later committed suicide by shooting himself, police said.

The three bodies were brought here for autopsy.


The doctor classifies such cases as being afflicted with DDM-itis!! :mrgreen:
Anyway, leaving aside the Army part, isn't our auxiliary police called Home Guards? I have never come across the term "Special Auxiliary Police". Or am I wrong? :oops:

PS: Lacking the necessary skill to X-post, I am posting the link for the DDM thread
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3694&start=240
Sorry

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajeshks » 02 Jan 2010 15:52

I was wondering about the new IMA song "Bharat mata teri kasam...". Can anyone send me.

Thanks

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sachin » 02 Jan 2010 19:53

atreya wrote:Anyway, leaving aside the Army part, isn't our auxiliary police called Home Guards? I have never come across the term "Special Auxiliary Police". Or am I wrong? :oops:

State Policing is a state subject matter, and there are various terms used to denote the local police (law and order) and the kinds of "reserve police" (who generally only come out during riot situations). In Kerala we have units like Special Armed Police and Malabar Special Police (both with a good history), which are now basically training establishments for new recruits. They generally get deployed mainly for riot control. I am aware of the "Bihar Military Police" in Bihar, which has nothing "military" to it, and is a state "police" unit.

Home Guards generally are part of the Civil Defence establishment. They do not have any policing powers. Generally they are under the command of the IPS officer who heads the state's fire brigade.

How ever many folks in the media (and many of the civilian folks as well) have no clue on how police establishments are run, how Central Police organisations work, and how the Indian Army works. For them a man wearing a khakhi/green/camouflage uniform is all the same (especially, when they have some thing negative to say).

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rohitvats » 02 Jan 2010 21:17

ParGha wrote:
AdityaM wrote:As per "cold start", IA will go in with smaller battle groups of a few armour (tanks) and infantry. How does this work out against a full strength Paki defensive armour group? Does it bank on the fact that the Pakis will not be able to herd together all their armour in time to counter indian thrust?


It is the main stumbling block about all new "light" formations - What happens when it runs into an older heavier formation? And it can it ever as mobile as older light formations (airborne/air-mobile/amphibious)? And if surprise, speed and attrition is the desired military objective, wouldn't air, rocket and long-range tube artillery suffice? There used to be a rather deprecatory saying about the US Army Light Divisions (mid1980s-1990s) by people who had served in other mechanized and light divisions: "Too light to stand and fight, too heavy to move and bite".


I very clearly remember that one of the few nuggets of information about Cold Start states that we are looking at deploying 8 Division sized IBGs. Such a formation will definitely not be "light". It will be more balanced in terms of combined arms operations. You can expect an armored brigade at minimum to be the nucleus of such a formation. And since it is a "Division Sized" formation, it will have minimum of 3 Bdes. It will be between an Armored Division and a RAPID. Add to it an Arty Bde with minimum of 4*155mm+MRLS battery (assumption), I think it will be able to punch hole through any holding formations of PA...we have the Heavy Weights (Strike Corps) to deal with ARN/ARC/ARS combo....

Another important point...we are talking about 8 such formation. 3 to 4 Corps are on their way to have such formations under them...and since it is COLD START...these should ideally be the Pivot Corps...12th/10th/9th are prime candidates....We also need to remember that all of them have Independent Armored Bdes (9th has 3 such bdes) to initiate secondary assaults/axises and defensive actions....

Also, there was an article in Dawn recently (a link was posted on BR) which spoke about "4th Indian Armored Division"....Now I very clearly and distinctly remember reading on Orbat.com about raising of such a formation in Jaisalmer..IIRC under 12 Corps...340th (I) Mechanized Bde was said to be the nucleus of this formation....I do not knjow wether it is up and running or under raising...but if the news is true :twisted:.......just imagine 12 Corps with 2 IBG and one armored division....Ya Allah!!!...possibilities are immense....no wonder IA wants to knock off PA in any future conflict in fast and furious fashion.....just check the distance of Jaisalmer from IB......10 Corps with 2 RAPIDS+1 Infantry (to metamorphose into IBG)......1 Strike Corps under SW Command (31st Armored+4 RAPID).........No wonder there is talk of PA IV Corps having an Armored Division.....

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby rajrang » 02 Jan 2010 22:05

Craig Alpert wrote:and the DOGS BARK :lol:
Indian Army's two-front doctrine betrays hostile intent: Pak
ISLAMABAD: Pakistan has said that Indian Army's new military doctrine including scenarios such as a two-front simultaneous war with both China and Pakistan "betrays a hostile intent" and a "jingoistic mindset".

Foreign Office spokesman Abdul Basit said in a statement that the Indian Army's new military doctrine "betray a hostile intent as well as a hegemonic and jingoistic mindset which is quite out of step with the realities of our time".

Pakistan is prepared to defend itself in the face of all contingencies, Basit said. "No one should ever underestimate our capability and determination to foil any nefarious designs against the security of Pakistan," he said.

Indian Army officials have said that the doctrine, which is reviewed every five years at the Army's Shimla-based Training Command, will now include scenarios such as a two- front simultaneous war with both China and Pakistan.

Basit called on the world community to take "due notice of such statements".

He added: "Pakistan remains mindful of the threats posed to its security as well as the importance of promoting peace in South Asia."

The spokesman also told a weekly news briefing at the Foreign Office that Pakistan's desire for peace should not be mistaken for weakness.


More barking - this time baring teeth

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/indi ... 405675.cms

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Avik » 02 Jan 2010 22:49

Rohitvats: I have a couple of queries on the IBGs and their efficacy:

1) Are the IBGs independent of the strike corps- as in; will the IBGs have strike assets that are not sourced from the strike corps?
The reason for my query is because the strike corps are well, strike units, because of not just the inherent armoured divisions, but more so because of the Indep Armd Brigs in each of those, especially in the case of II Corps.Now, given that IA has 6-8 Indep Armr and Mech Brigs, retaining the three strike corps at full power, leaves only a few Indep Armr Bdes available for integration into the IBGs. I am making an additional assumption that 16 Corps and possibly 9 Corps (partly) will continue retaining their Armd Bdes for a counter against the expected riposte from PAs ARN.

2) How much straight line distance are the IBGs expected to cover from the Int Border? Anything more than 10-15 kms penetration in Paki Punjab will lead to DCBs and Canals ( and also minefields). I am yet to see any new Combat Engineer assets in IA, especially Engineer Bdes. Without these, the IBGs will, I am afraid, not get anywhere.

3) I would assume that in an ideal scenario, the number of plains strike axis for IA would be 6-8; 1 in south J&K, 3-4 in Punjab, 3 in Rajasthan, 1 in North-West Guj or deep South Raj- Given this disposition, the strike corps, if they are still retained as complete units, will have no frontage to attack. I am yet to draw up a logistics analysis for supporting 6-8 independent axes of attack, but that could be another major hurdle. Hence, my initial question of whether the IBGs are independent of the strike corps?

4) Finally, I am not too sure about mating mech units like IBGs with pure infantry units like Infantry Bdes. Given the hell-for-leather chase in the first 72-96 hours, the foot sloggers may get left behind by the charioteers!!

The above are some of the queries I have on the IBG concept. It would be great if Rohit or RayC or any of the Gurus can shed some light..

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ParGha » 03 Jan 2010 07:04

rohitvats wrote:I very clearly remember that one of the few nuggets of information about Cold Start states that we are looking at deploying 8 Division sized IBGs. Such a formation will definitely not be "light". It will be more balanced in terms of combined arms operations. You can expect an armored brigade at minimum to be the nucleus of such a formation. And since it is a "Division Sized" formation, it will have minimum of 3 Bdes. It will be between an Armored Division and a RAPID.

rohit,

You are talking about reorganizing and enhancing the existing divisions - it is a regular and much needed cycle, but nothing revolutionary about it. It has long been sought to increase the mobility and firepower of elements of "Holding" corps while retaining the "Strike" corps as they are. I find no issues with that. It has a little to do with "Cold Start", in form of "Pivot" corps that can quickly respond to cross-border terrorist incidents within a politically acceptable time-frame, but not much. However I was under the impression that AdityaM referred to an idea of forming 8 IBGs by amalgamating numerous holding and strike formations, which, IMHO, would be neither here nor there. I leave it to him to clarify what he meant.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby NRao » 03 Jan 2010 09:00

Armed for impact

Very interesting article. For one they seem to have opened their eye WRT latest-and-greatest.

However, secondly and perhaps more importantly, ALL these should have been researched in India and made in India BY NOW, considering the fact that India has HAD terrorism for eons!!!!! Grrrrrrrrrrr................

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sum » 03 Jan 2010 10:24

The Army will include three more battalions and dedicated Army Aviation Special Operations Squadrons, with helicopters and aircraft. Defence ministry sources said most of these equipment were from the US and Israel.

So, we will be getting a Desi version of the 160th SOAR?

Will this be equipped with new specialised aircraft or existing aircraft? Dont recall seeing any RFI etc for the same

The Air Force is also in shopping mode. It is planning to buy six C-130J aircraft from the US for its Garud Commandos who protect Air Force bases and conduct search and rescue operations. The C-130J can land on makeshift landing grounds without lights.

Is this another set of C-130Js or are the originally signed 6 for the Garuds? First time im seeing a specific mention of C-130 for Garud's use only. All this while, it used to be for "special operations" with no specific operator mentioned.

Special forces commandos would be the tip of the spear in any Indian attack on terrorist camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. “The special forces are not designed to cover the full range of challenges we face today on the low end of the conflict scale,” Singh said. “We should prepare them for a large intervention that goes well beyond the use of small packets of troops on lonely hillsides.”

Is the bolded part true? :shock:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 03 Jan 2010 11:33

sum wrote:
The Army will include three more battalions and dedicated Army Aviation Special Operations Squadrons, with helicopters and aircraft. Defence ministry sources said most of these equipment were from the US and Israel.

So, we will be getting a Desi version of the 160th SOAR?
..................
Special forces commandos would be the tip of the spear in any Indian attack on terrorist camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. “The special forces are not designed to cover the full range of challenges we face today on the low end of the conflict scale,” Singh said. “We should prepare them for a large intervention that goes well beyond the use of small packets of troops on lonely hillsides.”

Is the bolded part true? :shock:


yup, looks like desi night stalkers. 8)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 03 Jan 2010 13:35

sum wrote:
Special forces commandos would be the tip of the spear in any Indian attack on terrorist camps in Pakistan-occupied Kashmir. “The special forces are not designed to cover the full range of challenges we face today on the low end of the conflict scale,” Singh said. “We should prepare them for a large intervention that goes well beyond the use of small packets of troops on lonely hillsides.”

Is the bolded part true? :shock:

I would assume so. Military special forces are not designed with 26/11 type situations kept in mind. They are not the main priority as it is simply not their job.
It is the job of police or other specialized forces formed for this job.
Eg: You would not find Delta Force or Army Rangers engaged in terrorists hostage situation in US. It is simply not their job and in their training is not designed keeping such situations as priority. Same is with IA Para.

However, this being India, everything is supposed to be IA's headache. NSG SAG personnel come from IA even though it is headed by an IPS (and GOI refuse the IA's request to transfer NSG within its command). And now even PARA are directly expected to engage in urban terrorists situation deep withing India (read Bangalore).
I guess this is what the statement implied. But I think this has a very detrimental effect on SF. SF should not be jack of all trades. Their training and focus should be what their name suggests; specialized. But because of inefficiency of Police and short sightedness (though blindness would be a better term) of MHA, IA focus, training and efficiency gets diluted.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Paul » 03 Jan 2010 14:29

However, this being India, everything is supposed to be IA's headache. NSG SAG personnel come from IA even though it is headed by an IPS (and GOI refuse the IA's request to transfer NSG within its command).


THis happens cuz the aam admi does not understand or care to learn about the specialization and the task the army is trained for...protecting the country's borders.

Try explaining to the average mumbaikar / politician on 26/11 that the army is tied down in J&K and building up in the NE....and one would know what I talking about. The army will be held at fault, not the faceless babus who are responsible for creating the situation

George J
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby George J » 03 Jan 2010 23:20

Paul,
Err.........the aam admi on 26/11 got to see 5 columns of IA within hours and the next day they saw even more coming down Western Express Highway from Pune led by Gen. Thamburaj. The same aam admi got to see the MARCOS deployed within 2-4 hours of start of the incident. I am not blaming the IA for the NSG coming in after 9 hours....but hopefully with the regional hubs that wont happen again.

If there was another pool of qualified talent to fill the ranks of NSG I am sure they would have done so already. And THEN you will hear the same IA whine that their "representation" in the NSG has gone down. The NSG is a civilian force and thus under the control of Home Ministry which mean it will obviously be lead by an IPS officer.

If 26/11 has shown anything it is that when $hit hits the fan ALL resources are pulled in. If the MARCOS had no problem deploying I am sure Paras should have no issues too if something of this scale happens again.

Also when was the last time a civilian SWAT squad faced- Chinese grenades, 1000's of rounds of 7.62, 16 Kgs of RDX (in two 8Kg IED), provisions and an opponent who had come to die? The last I checked SWAT teams regularly take out deranged fathers, serve "high risk warrants" (gangbangers) and Columbine teenagers. Oh and lets not forget for them "Room Intervention" is now a sport (watch the Outdoor Channel-SWAT Championships), they try to which team can clear a room full of dummies the fastest. If the dummies had grenades and RDX, I would LOVE to see how much of a sport that would be.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 04 Jan 2010 00:41

George J wrote:If there was another pool of qualified talent to fill the ranks of NSG I am sure they would have done so already. And THEN you will hear the same IA whine that their "representation" in the NSG has gone down. The NSG is a civilian force and thus under the control of Home Ministry which mean it will obviously be lead by an IPS officer.

Are you sure that IA would whine? I highly doubt that. With all these hubs being set up, from where do you think SAG are getting thousands of troops from?
The best of the soldiers fighting in J&k and NE are being removed to fill the void. You seriously think that it would have no adverse effect on IA? If SAG vacancies were to be filled by another pool, the only emotion the IA would have felt would have been "relief".
You say "If there was another pool of qualified talent to fill the ranks of NSG I am sure they would have done so already". The problem is not that their is no other pool besides IA, the problem is that till IA is ready to serve as the pool, no one really bothers to find an alternative.
rohitvats (or was it ASPuar?) recently provided us with an interesting figure. According to MHA, there are 621 CPO batallions! IA has roughly 400 infantry battalions.
If we consider the total amound of CPOs and Police togther, it would make a pool which makes IA look unnecessary for this job. True, CPOs and Police are not trained as well as IA. But can we not select even a few thousand individuals from a pool more than double to that of IA? Can we not select men from CPOs and Police and let IA train them? If 621 CPO battalions are worthless then disband them. Why is so much of taxpayers' money is being spent on their salary?
If we provide them with proper training and equipment, there is no reason why they cannot perform the job. GSG-9 is is a civilian Police force, yet they are considered among the best. Even NSG have trained with them.
George J wrote:If 26/11 has shown anything it is that when $hit hits the fan ALL resources are pulled in. If the MARCOS had no problem deploying I am sure Paras should have no issues too if something of this scale happens again.

No, 26/11 has shown that when shit hits the fan, all resources of Indian Military are pulled in. Sure Marcos had no problem deploying, and you are right, PARA would also have no problem. Just as they have no problem fighting in J&K and NE. I would not be surprised, if in the future, they do not have a problem cleaning up the Naxalite mess as well. But that does not mean that it is their job. That does not mean that they should be made to do others job because others just don't give a damn. It is really sad that now even Ghatak Platoons are now expected to counter these types of threats.
George J wrote:Also when was the last time a civilian SWAT squad faced- Chinese grenades, 1000's of rounds of 7.62, 16 Kgs of RDX (in two 8Kg IED), provisions and an opponent who had come to die? The last I checked SWAT teams regularly take out deranged fathers, serve "high risk warrants" (gangbangers) and Columbine teenagers. Oh and lets not forget for them "Room Intervention" is now a sport (watch the Outdoor Channel-SWAT Championships), they try to which team can clear a room full of dummies the fastest. If the dummies had grenades and RDX, I would LOVE to see how much of a sport that would be.

India faces unique and daunting challenges but that does not mean that everything should be thrust upon IA. And it is not that others cannot do the job. There are some CPOs doing their job splendidly. Where else do you see CPOs manning outposts at 21000 feet? Yet ITBP and SFF do a splendid job. BSF is another example of an efficient CPO. Why cannot other CPOs and Police be made efficient?


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