Indian Army: News & Discussion

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George J
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby George J » 04 Jan 2010 01:01

I am not sure what are you trying to say or what is even relevant.

Let me reiterate, NSG is a civilian force and will be headed by civilians. But for the nature of the task (domestic anti-terrorist ops) the most talented people will come from the IA. Even if the force was 100% IA because they are DEPUTED to NSG it will be headed by a civilian. What's next? You want the Defense Ministry to be run by Army too? The last I checked the IA seems to have a disproportionately large representation there too? :)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 04 Jan 2010 01:29

^^
Sir,
It seems we are talking of two totally different things. :)
I was talking about, how IMO, anti terrorist operations should be handled by CPOs and Police.
If my understanding is correct, you are talking about the rationale behind NSG being headed by an IPS.
And now that we are on the same topic.
You are right that NSG is a civilian organization and therefore should be headed by an IPS. However, it is a unique civilian organization considering that 100% of all SAG personnel are deputed from IA. So, IMHO, the best thing is to relieve IA from NSG duties and let CPOs fill the void. But if for some reason this cannot be done (though I cannot see any valid one), make NSG a military organization (since all the SAG come from IA anyway). This would enable better handling and management of NSG. This is because an IPS officer, however efficient, has no experience, training and therefore understanding of the SF. It is thus better that NSG be headed by an IA SF officer.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby George J » 04 Jan 2010 02:03

Gaur wrote:............This is because an IPS officer, however efficient, has no experience, training and therefore understanding of the SF. It is thus better that NSG be headed by an IA SF officer.


SPG is headed by an IPS officer. RAW is headed by an IPS officer.

The last I checked IPS officers have NO CLUE about protecting important people....but somehow the SPG seems to have done well...and is pretty well trained and equipped.

Also the NSG does not seem to have faired badly under the IPS leadership. So unless there are SPECIFIC examples of failure this is just storm in a tea cup.

Edit: But I will grant you this....contributing your men and yet having no management inputs does seem unfair...but that is the nature of the game......but I would rather have army jawans deputed to NSG under IPS than have CRPF guys in NSG under IPS.

Also someone can shed some light on this, I think the constitution says something about not using armed forces directly for civilian duties which is why the NSG was created under civilian leadership. It should be noted that MARCOS were deployed only after the Chief Secretary of the State requested them, the DGP has no say in this matter. Similarly the Home Sec must give the order to NSG to deploy at the request of the state's civilian leadership.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 04 Jan 2010 02:15

^^
Do CPOs have experience in DA/urban combat/hostage rescue as much as IA? :-? No this is not a rhetorical question.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 04 Jan 2010 02:23

George J Sir,
True, NSG has done well. However, Col Choudhary (NSG founder) has criticized them quite a lot in the recent past. So, I guess, things could be better.
However, this is just IMO.
Though, you are also right. SPG seems to be doing pretty well under IPS.
So let us just agree to disagree. :)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 04 Jan 2010 02:25

pgbhat wrote:^^
Do CPOs have experience in DA/urban combat/hostage rescue as much as IA? :-? No this is not a rhetorical question.

Depends. For RR and AR the answer would be yes. Others, not that much.
Why do you ask? Any particular reason?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 04 Jan 2010 02:38

Gaur wrote:Depends. For RR and AR the answer would be yes. Others, not that much.
Why do you ask? Any particular reason?

what about SPG? do SPG have any HR experience? I thought they don't. Since IA forms the core part of NSG and has a lot more experience in dealing with such situations it is better to handle NSG. If not army better step back and concentrated on SF operations rather than dealing with HR inside the country.

Also for if NSG is to remain in civilian control, it is a good move to train CPOs to be part of SAG (Pioneer article talks about it) instead of being just in SRG. Battle hardened CI troops from these orgs can be chosen to be imparted training and keep it under civilian control.

IA could use more officers/jawans in its kitty for spec ops.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 04 Jan 2010 02:57

^^
I have little idea about SPG, so I do not know.
As for the other part of your post, I totally agree. Though IA has more experience in such scenarios, there is no reason why the best among CPOs cannot be selected and imparted training by IA to fill SAG. After some time, IA would not need to even train them. After enough expertise, they could train the next batch.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 04 Jan 2010 04:22

Well then time for the IPS guys training to be revamped so that they understand better the sort of operations that will be demanded of the NSG.

JK Dutts tenure was useless - not sure how much better it is now.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 04 Jan 2010 13:50

Is there a website that lists down IA names of officers (and ORs) who have been killed in various ops, including Kashmir? Sort of "memorial" for the martyred?

Thanks in advance..

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Avik » 04 Jan 2010 14:25

FWIW snippet in Force magazine says IA is raising 4 divisions- 2 by the end of this year and 2 more by 2012 end...

http://www.forceindia.net/coverstory1.aspx

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 04 Jan 2010 15:03

George J wrote:
SPG is headed by an IPS officer. RAW is headed by an IPS officer.

The last I checked IPS officers have NO CLUE about protecting important people....but somehow the SPG seems to have done well...and is pretty well trained and equipped.

Also the NSG does not seem to have faired badly under the IPS leadership. So unless there are SPECIFIC examples of failure this is just storm in a tea cup.


Um... Rajiv Gandhi was a notable SPG protectee, that the SPG managed not to save.

No offense, but I think that the NSG and the SPG work well only, and only, because they have army and CPO officers and Jawans taking care of the real work, while the police brass takes high ranks and the credit.

Anyone can claim to be doing a decent job, so long as he makes sure that the real work is done by competent people. The job of serving as figurehead can be done just as well (and more appropriately), by an Army officer.

Incidentally, there is no constitutional problem about having an army officer as executive head of the agency. An Army officer heads the Assam Rifles (A central police organisation). An Army officer heads the Border Roads Organisation (A ministry of surface transport org). There is no difficulty whatsoever.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 04 Jan 2010 15:33

ASPuar wrote:Um... Rajiv Gandhi was a notable SPG protectee, that the SPG managed not to save.

No offense, but I think that the NSG and the SPG work well only, and only, because they have army and CPO officers and Jawans taking care of the real work, while the police brass takes high ranks and the credit


Rajiv Gandhi was not under SPG cover when he was killed. At that time, the SPG mandate was limited to the serving PM, in fact there was a huge controversy about this when the SPG cover was removed for RG..The law was changed specifically after his assassination..

Both BRO and Assam Rifles are also under the administrative control of Ministry of Defence..

But really, the head of any organisation would be defined by its mandate. Both NSG and SPG have a basic "policing" mandate, as a high level SWAT/HRT unit and (the latter) as a VIP proximate security unit...therefore its not much a of an issue IMHO for a police officer to be heading them - in fact in most situations this officer (who would typically be a senior officer) would be much better networked with the relevant parties (bureaucracy, local police, intel etc) than an army officer would..

PS: any links for this?

Is there a website that lists down IA names of officers (and ORs) who have been killed in various ops, including Kashmir? Sort of "memorial" for the martyred?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 04 Jan 2010 15:59

Somnath:

1. Reference your views on mandates, etc. If NSG is a SWAT type police force, and it should be headed by a policeman, then let it also not be officered and staffed at any level by army personnel, because that is patently not their job. As of Now, more than 50% of the staff comes from the army, embroiling them in duties that do not add to their core professional competence. Alas, the police seems not to have the competence to perform these purely police tasks, and so the army is saddled with the burden.


2. Even in terms of mandates, Army officers have been in the past successfully deployed as heads of state police forces (Reference Brigadier CA Quinn, IGP of Mizoram in the 1980s). They seem to have functioned fine as heads of these purely police orgs, so why shouldnt they head police orgs which are functioning with a vast staff strength provided by the army (NSG, for eg)?

3. Your comments about the heads of an organisation being derived from the organisations mandate may be true. But then the MoD secretariat should be headed once again by defence service personnel (it was until 1950, when the military felt like secretariat work was an unnecessary burden) , the ministry of agriculture secretariat by a scientist, the ministry of finance secretariat by an economist or revenue officer, the ministry of power secretariat by a technocrat, the ministry of HRD secretariat by an academic, ad infinitum. Alas, as you will note, that instead, they are all headed by generalist officers of a particular service. Of course, in some ministries at least a modicum of specialisation in the executive secretariat cadre is indeed the case. Railways, and MOSPI, for instance.

4. Correct, BRO and AR are under the "administrative control" of the MoD, but so what? The point is, that AR is a CPO, under the MHA, and BRO is a MOST org, both with their own officer cadres also.

Again, your point eludes me.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 04 Jan 2010 21:42

somnath wrote:Is there a website that lists down IA names of officers (and ORs) who have been killed in various ops, including Kashmir? Sort of "memorial" for the martyred?

Thanks in advance..



We created this around Kargil.

http://www.amar-jawan.org/

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 04 Jan 2010 21:46

amar jawan is mostly uptodate till the year of the book.

Casualties since then might not all be available.

But its a great start

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pralay » 04 Jan 2010 22:59

ramana wrote:We created this around Kargil.

http://www.amar-jawan.org/


hey,
I have noticed some serious problems with the site. I could not send you private msg on brf. So can you please email me on samiirds{aT}gmail{d0t}com
or skype>> phpmysqlcoder
I shall explain you the problems and possible fixes.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 04 Jan 2010 23:12

The Indian Army official website has a latest uptodate record. You can search for martyrs records online and choose to offer an e-prayer to one/many of them.

http://indianarmy.nic.in/Site/martyrs/frmFlashPage.aspx

ramana wrote:
somnath wrote:Is there a website that lists down IA names of officers (and ORs) who have been killed in various ops, including Kashmir? Sort of "memorial" for the martyred?

Thanks in advance..



We created this around Kargil.

http://www.amar-jawan.org/

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sumshyam » 04 Jan 2010 23:25

ramana wrote:We created this around Kargil.

http://www.amar-jawan.org/


Hats off for the steps...!

But a little feedback....well I searched for officers kinda thing...got the results...but they were not in order...so that I think need to be addressed..!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 04 Jan 2010 23:38

Gents,

Please bear in mind the lessons we have learnt from the past - even if the establishment is forgetting. The existing realities of the Indian COIN and CT scene do not allow a strict adherence to one 'format' of the force. In the Indian context sadly there is no assal uttar.

The COIN and CT forces that you see today are a result of events in history in Independent India:

> BSF was created when Pak Army overran Gujarat Police in 1965
> ITBP was created post the 1962 war but initiated with the fate of CRPF patrol in 1959(?)
> NSG was created because of the botched success of the Paras in Op Bluestar
> SPG was created when Indira Gandhi was assasinated
> SSB and SFF were again a product of 1962
> Force 1 was created and NSG dispersed after 26/11 :P
> RR was created as response to present terrorism in J&K

(AR is the only COIN force from British era).

Now the NSG was created with a vision, that the Army specifically should not be tasked to internal Counter-Terror operations. The same principle governs the decision to create the Rashtriya Rifles. Please dwell on the reason why this was done. These forces give us the skill, experience and discipline of army with the accountability of a police force. Its a mixed bag but one that is required in our context.

Having a CRPF serves their purpose, we cannot look for an only-Army, only-RR or only-CPO solution... its the reality. Else you will have a 2 million man Army fighting under AFSPA under half the Indian landmass. The ultimate solution lies in ensuring that the CRPF especially scales up to be an effective and well respected force.

The GoI has taken initiatives to reduce the confusion with one-border, one-force rule and the elevation of CRPF as India's premier COIN force.

ASPuar wrote:Somnath:

1. Reference your views on mandates, etc. If NSG is a SWAT type police force, and it should be headed by a policeman, then let it also not be officered and staffed at any level by army personnel, because that is patently not their job. As of Now, more than 50% of the staff comes from the army, embroiling them in duties that do not add to their core professional competence. Alas, the police seems not to have the competence to perform these purely police tasks, and so the army is saddled with the burden.


2. Even in terms of mandates, Army officers have been in the past successfully deployed as heads of state police forces (Reference Brigadier CA Quinn, IGP of Mizoram in the 1980s). They seem to have functioned fine as heads of these purely police orgs, so why shouldnt they head police orgs which are functioning with a vast staff strength provided by the army (NSG, for eg)?

3. Your comments about the heads of an organisation being derived from the organisations mandate may be true. But then the MoD secretariat should be headed once again by defence service personnel (it was until 1950, when the military felt like secretariat work was an unnecessary burden) , the ministry of agriculture secretariat by a scientist, the ministry of finance secretariat by an economist or revenue officer, the ministry of power secretariat by a technocrat, the ministry of HRD secretariat by an academic, ad infinitum. Alas, as you will note, that instead, they are all headed by generalist officers of a particular service. Of course, in some ministries at least a modicum of specialisation in the executive secretariat cadre is indeed the case. Railways, and MOSPI, for instance.

4. Correct, BRO and AR are under the "administrative control" of the MoD, but so what? The point is, that AR is a CPO, under the MHA, and BRO is a MOST org, both with their own officer cadres also.

Again, your point eludes me.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 05 Jan 2010 08:58

Ramana, Aditya,

Thanks a ton for the linkes. The IA site also has an updated list of all officers and ORs killed in a particular year (at least 2008 was there)..

ASPuar, the point on the background of any departmental head is often a question of "legacy",and the legacy is borne out of a rationale that may or may not be palatable to everyone at a point in time..

But in this case, the point really is simple. NSG recruits a lot of people from the IA because that is the best source of manpower with the sort of "basic skills" that NSG's mandate requires...Which other organisation can provide manpower that is trained in marksmanship, regular "practice" with the weapons, helicopter-based operations, a degree of familiarity with modern infantry weapons and other equipment etc? But that does not change the "policing" mandate of the NSG, or the SPG (incidentally, the SPG recruits exclusively from the police if I am not mistaken)..Therefore the question of the administrative head is to me not a big deal...

The bigger issues are with mandates and doctrines and marrying them with the aprporpiate threats (do you need for example, a Force1 in Mumbai when the NSG is deployed?), which is where the debates should focus on..

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby shiv » 05 Jan 2010 09:15

viewtopic.php?p=799267#p799267

Indian mountain infantry rather special equipment is a helmet, which consists of a circle made of steel, thickness 6-7 mm, with the shroud of fabric wrapped his head unprotected. In other armed forces have never seen such a helmet may be in India due to shortage of funds and the "cottage" out of a equipment.


:D So Patkas are used because of shortage of funds and cottage industry products

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 05 Jan 2010 09:27

somnath

actually administrative head does matter.

Example

A police mentality presently does not seem to have lent itself to plan for eventualities of rapid deployment. Any one taking over an unit like that first looks at what is expected of them and tries to lay down a plan to achieve it.

Does not look like Dutt did anything? Essentially let down all the gallant boys of the NSG

Men commanding SF units etc have this ingrained in them eg SF unit N number of men ready in X hours and available for deployment \pickup at certain place. Transport units at that place are constantly checked and communicated too.

police heads just do not have this ingrained training. Period

So its fine if Policemen are to do this job but then they better get their training right early on in their career.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 05 Jan 2010 09:54

^^^ Surya,

My point wasnt that the administrative head "does not matter"..Of course he does, but the question is what skillsets are moot in that position as compared to those required for the "footsoldiers"..

NSG already has rapid deployment SOPs etc..In my opinion, those would be automatically activated in a given situaion, regardless of who the Director is.. I frankly dont know enough to conclude that JK Dutt "goofed up" in a major way..

Each operation of course throws up its own lessons..NSG did not have night flying choppers to take them to IGI airport..Their designated aircraft wasnt on station (though if I remember correctly JK Dutt rubbished the timelines thrown up by the media in an interview)...I am sure the NSG, under any chief, would be evaluating these and taking measures..

Its not typial to NSG, the time taken to mobilise during Parakram was obviously a key drawback to the execution of objectives..IA took the lessons and therefore came up with the new Cold Start doctrine..So its a continuous process..

The sort of administrative work, on the other hand, that the Chief is supposed to look after is in the domain of training, setting up infrastructure, haggle with ministry bosses for funds and approval of benefits for the men and so on..As also work on the doctrinal aspects of deployment..Given the mandated deployment patterns of NSG, a police officer should be better positioned to do the job - IMHO...

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Jan 2010 10:15

^^Somnath:

We seem to be missing the point.

1. If the skill set required is physical fitness, familiarity with infantry weaponry, and regular arms practice, then any of the various CPO's can provide personnel who meet the requirements. So, continued use of highly (and differently) trained Army jawans/officers for what is essentially work handled by municipal police SWAT teams in other countries, is a wasteful deployment pattern, IMO.

2. If the armymen are obliged to man this force, then they should have the privilege of commanding it too. IMO, no argument can be made out for continued executive leadership of NSG by IPS officers, because it is a job which can be done equally well by Army officers (as you say, who heads the org doesnt matter), and should be done by them, considering that it is their men doing the work in the end. Just a matter of fairness.

3. Training, administration, Liasing with ministries, state govts etc etc is done routinely by DGAR, DGBR, DGRR, and of course, the regular army as well. So there should be no doubt that it is not very difficult for these works being done by an army general either.

Note, that I would personally prefer that the org continues to be headed by an IPS officer, but that its composition changes to being entirely from the CPO's. IMO, that is how such an org should be structured. Unfortunately, there seems to be insufficient skill/training at the officer level (IPS and CPO), to manage such an outcome.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 05 Jan 2010 10:38

^^^ASPuar,

Its a matter of perspective I guess, but to me its not a big deal (compared to so many other burning issues) really..

Just a final two cents - the NSG setup was inspired to a great degree by the GSG9, which in turn was set up as a police unit (it also recruits exclusively from the police, but thats got more to do with German history)...FBI HRT on the other hand, recruits liberally from the Army and Marines, but is headed by a civilian officer..So the situation of NSG is not without precedent elsewhere..

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 05 Jan 2010 11:12

^^Somnath:

I suppose I understand your perspective, but these issues are of course of importance to our men serving in these units, and that is of importance to the morale of troops in general, and finally to the security of the country.

To be used as frontline troops against terror, to face danger and risk, and then be denied a say in the management of orgs which one has to serve, is demoralizing, and ultimately bad man management. Even a perception of unfairness by the officers and men involved, is a bad thing from a man management point of view.

I am aware of GSG 9, and it recruits from police forces only. Military are not allowed to apply, unless they resign, and then reapply to BGS (BundesGrenzSchutz, the german border security agency, now known as Bundespolizei). This, as you say, is because of historic issues particular to Germany.

FBI HRT does not recruit from the army and marines in the same manner as NSG does, rather, it gives preference in recruitment to released military personnel, much in the same manner as many of our Central Police Orgs and State Police Orgs do. The deputation analogy does not apply in their cases, as they are starting a fresh career in the FBI/FBI-HRT.

In sum, going by the common sense perception of what is required for NSG Hostage Rescue/CT ops, there really seems to me to be no reason why CPO personnel cannot man agencies like the NSG. Indeed, there are few countries where this type of work is done by a non police agency. The only conclusion available is that there is a disinclination by the police leadership to put their officers and men through the rigours of training and the possibility of risk, when there is an easier way out by making the army do it.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 05 Jan 2010 18:51

There is diff in the FB recruiting from US army etc.

There it is a job posted and those eligible can apply with preference

Not so in the NSG

The message goes out to 1 SF - provide 6 men for next batch of NSG. (someone can correct me if I am wrong)

Thats it. Whether the poor strapped CO can spare 6 men is immaterial - he has to provide 6 men

Thats a whole different setup than the others. In such cases AS Puar has a valid point.

I am willing to live with a compromise. Start putting the IPS men through course very early on and command units where they constantly have to think of deployment, speed of response , etc. Then they can command the NSG. Not the present dumdums.

Regarding even the 26\11 screwup - there was nothing to prevent Dutt from taking the initiative and burn the Tel lines to the Home ministry and Aviation ministry to get sanction for commanding civil aircraft. In that situation NO ONE would have turned it down. I have not even seen documented proof that it was tried?? and they could not arrange for a couple of choppers to airlift them from the airport instead of those stupid ass BEST buses.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 05 Jan 2010 19:06

new delhi airport would have plenty of 737/A320 parked for the night after 10pm.
also the red eye flights to other metros also leave late into the night.

a couple could have been bagged right away.

I guess nobody that high up had much of clue how serious the attack was.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 05 Jan 2010 19:30

Singha

exactly

Also this is not NEW - The Special Group used to think along these lines.

Thats why Chowdury basically feels that it has deteriorated since his times.

Its all the thinking that was totally missing.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Aditya G » 05 Jan 2010 21:35

The sad part is why there were'nt any choppers at Manesar to ferry them to Palam.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby putnanja » 08 Jan 2010 02:10

Army hunts for night-vision goggles for its copter pilots

The Army is now hunting for advanced night-vision goggles (NVGs) for its pilots flying helicopters like Cheetahs, Chetaks and Dhruv advanced light helicopters to ensure they can operate effectively after sunset.
...
...
AAC, on its part, is now going in for a major expansion, having projected `concrete' requirements for the 11th (2007-2012), 12th and 13th five-year plans. In the long-term, the Army even wants to operate its own attack helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft, which of course has not gone down too well in IAF.
...
...
While IAF will continue to have its `strategic role', the Army wants its own air force for `tactical' roles. As per plans, AAC wants to have a mix of reconnaissance, utility, tactical battle-support, armed and attack helicopters as well as tactical airlift fixed-wing aircraft.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 08 Jan 2010 09:26

Surya wrote:There is diff in the FB recruiting from US army etc.

There it is a job posted and those eligible can apply with preference

Not so in the NSG

The message goes out to 1 SF - provide 6 men for next batch of NSG. (someone can correct me if I am wrong)

Thats it. Whether the poor strapped CO can spare 6 men is immaterial - he has to provide 6 men



Not really. NSG is an all volunteer force (same as Para SF)..There are perks of serving in the NSG (higher pay, family station etc etc)..So they really dont have a dearth of volunteers..The reason why there are more SF guys in NSG is because more of them qualify, having gone through a similar qualification grind for SF in the first place, compared to other arms..

Stationing a chopper in the Manesar complex is also not as simple as it sounds - its soemthing that has been deliberated upon for a long time..The problem is, how many choppers do you station? One Mi17 can carry about 20 commandos with their full load? During Mumbai, the first batch sent was 200 commandos..That would have required 10 choppers to ferry everyone in one go, that is a full squadron! A couple of choppers with standby pilots would still mean a to-and-fro ferry service between IGI and Manesar- would it amount to the same thing as transporting the entire 200 people troop in trucks?

The BEST buses from Mumbai airport was actually a fairly resourceful action. Again, to transport 200 men from the airport would have required at least 12-15 choppers...Where would they have landed? The naval base off Colaba? If I am not mistaken, that can hardly accomodate a few MATCH type choppers at the same time..But even more basis, where does the city of Mumbai get access to so many choppers (and pilots) at the same time? BEST buses (especially as the roads would be empty during that time of the night) was the fastest and truest mode of transport for that many personnel..

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Singha » 08 Jan 2010 09:38

would the delhi-ggn expway have resolved this transit issue to palam now?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 08 Jan 2010 10:03

?

No. The Delhi GGN Expressway has been fully functional for more than half a decade. It was there and in action when the Mumbai attacks happened. Its usually clogged with an enormous amount of traffic.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 08 Jan 2010 10:06

somnath wrote:Stationing a chopper in the Manesar complex is also not as simple as it sounds - its soemthing that has been deliberated upon for a long time..The problem is, how many choppers do you station? One Mi17 can carry about 20 commandos with their full load? During Mumbai, the first batch sent was 200 commandos..That would have required 10 choppers to ferry everyone in one go, that is a full squadron! A couple of choppers with standby pilots would still mean a to-and-fro ferry service between IGI and Manesar- would it amount to the same thing as transporting the entire 200 people troop in trucks?

The BEST buses from Mumbai airport was actually a fairly resourceful action. Again, to transport 200 men from the airport would have required at least 12-15 choppers...Where would they have landed? The naval base off Colaba? If I am not mistaken, that can hardly accomodate a few MATCH type choppers at the same time..But even more basis, where does the city of Mumbai get access to so many choppers (and pilots) at the same time? BEST buses (especially as the roads would be empty during that time of the night) was the fastest and truest mode of transport for that many personnel..


A. Im pretty sure there are choppers in Manesar. Its a 3000 acre area, and has enough space.

B. 10 choppers dont take up a lot of space.

BUT

Transporting troops from Manesar to Colaba by chopper is something that would take a lot of time! Mi-17s are nowhere near as quick as your average commercial jet.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 08 Jan 2010 10:25

somnath
will get back with confirmation on deputation to Nsg

Regarding choppers - there are a couple of Mi8 in the back section of the airport (saw it while taxing)

Plus a bunch of helos with Pawan Hans at the juhu airport. (

plus naval ones


so a few sorties would have done the job. at the very minimum an advance guard would have had a head start in the scouting

As for landing - cmon anywhere in churchgate\colaba would have been better than 2 hrs in a bEST bus.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 08 Jan 2010 10:28

ASPuar wrote:A. Im pretty sure there are choppers in Manesar. Its a 3000 acre area, and has enough space.

B. 10 choppers dont take up a lot of space.

BUT

Transporting troops from Manesar to Colaba by chopper is something that would take a lot of time! Mi-17s are nowhere near as quick as your average commercial jet.


Its not just about stationing 10 choppers...A squadron of choppers requires a full logistics tail to be set up, and infrastructure..Manesar if I am not mistaken has only a couple of choppers, which quite frankly is neither here nor there..If its deemed that important, they would have taken steps to co-locate NSG with a chopper squadron..In the same way as the para brigade is col-located with the Agra AF base with its IL76s..

About transport to Colaba, I was referring to the ferrying of troops from CS Airport to Taj Mahal - and the fact that BEST buses were a resourceful solution...

The Delhi-GGN expressway does not reach Manesar yet, if I am not mistaken..The traffic is much better there compared to the start! :)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 08 Jan 2010 10:34

Surya wrote:somnath
will get back with confirmation on deputation to Nsg

Regarding choppers - there are a couple of Mi8 in the back section of the airport (saw it while taxing)

Plus a bunch of helos with Pawan Hans at the juhu airport. (

plus naval ones


so a few sorties would have done the job. at the very minimum an advance guard would have had a head start in the scouting

As for landing - cmon anywhere in churchgate\colaba would have been better than 2 hrs in a bEST bus.


Surya, you are assuming that those Mi8s were there on that day as well..As well as the fact that Pawan Hans had serviceable helicopters with pilots (this is a vv important variable) on standby...Further, that all these choppers were night flying enabled, and the pilots were night flying certified..Far too many optimistic assumptions to be true...

And you cant land a bunch of choppers just "anywhere"..More so on Bombay roads...As I said the Colaba naval base IMO cannot handle anything more than a couple of MATCH birds simultaeneously..

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby bodhi » 08 Jan 2010 11:01

somnath wrote:
About transport to Colaba, I was referring to the ferrying of troops from CS Airport to Taj Mahal - and the fact that BEST buses were a resourceful solution...



Agreed...it would barely take them 30 minutes to reach South Mumbai from the Domestic Airport at that time. Also, i dont think it would be a bright idea to have 10 Mi-17s hovering near the Taj and Trident to offload the NSG


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