Indian Army: News & Discussion

[Gaur]

Not really. NSG is an all volunteer force (same as Para SF)..There are perks of serving in the NSG (higher pay, family station etc etc)..So they really dont have a dearth of volunteers..The reason why there are more SF guys in NSG is because more of them qualify, having gone through a similar qualification grind for SF in the first place, compared to other arms..

Quite wrong. There is an option for volunteer entry, but NSG is nowhere near an "all volunteer force (same as Para SF)".
Nearly all the NSG personnel are on deputation. Unlike PARA SF, where there is "no" deputation. In PARA SF, "every" soldier is a volunteer.

[Surya]

somnath

The NSG landed early morning - so there was no night flying.

All the pilots of Pawan hans (I know 4 of them who live in the same apartment complex as my parents - 5 minutes from Juhu airport) are ex IAF and ex Army so one would assume they would have some clue to these types of ops.


Secondly no one asked for dropping on the Gateway of India - even the darn cricket maiden few minutes away would be an option.

Now if the Mi 8s were not available then its a diff story -(no one has claimed that was the case) but you do not get a bus because they MAY not be available.


Again the question is was this considered (since the adminstrators had enough time as they waited for the IL 76)- if it was considered and dropped then I will understand - but the 6 deputed SF men who were in that group (from my friends unit) thought it was a sheer waste of time. After reaching they spent some more time trying to get an idea of the layout, the back doors etc.

[ShauryaT]

Ongoing Revision of Indian Army Doctrine

The new posture was termed ‘active deterrence’ as against the ‘dissuasive deterrence’ that was practiced earlier. The two distinct postures are perhaps being amalgamated to cater for the ‘worst case’ scenario.

[somnath]

Not really. NSG is an all volunteer force (same as Para SF)..There are perks of serving in the NSG (higher pay, family station etc etc)..So they really dont have a dearth of volunteers..The reason why there are more SF guys in NSG is because more of them qualify, having gone through a similar qualification grind for SF in the first place, compared to other arms..

Quite wrong. There is an option for volunteer entry, but NSG is nowhere near an "all volunteer force (same as Para SF)".
Nearly all the NSG personnel are on deputation. Unlike PARA SF, where there is "no" deputation. In PARA SF, "every" soldier is a volunteer.

You are confusing "deputation" with volunteer. Deputation only means that the personnel revert back to another, parent unit after completion of their deputation - it happens in all departments of the govt all the time..But some deputations are "volunteer" in nature, while most are not..Deputation to RR (which is another "deputationist" force) is NOT volunteer - any battalion/personnel earmarked for RR has to go, there is no choice..NSG, on the other hand, is made up of volunteer deputationists..So people are asked to apply, and if selected they are posted to NSG for a fixed tenure (I think 3 years, extendable for another 3 years, or something to that effect)..After the tenure, they revert back to their parent organisations/units..

Surya, I dont know whether the option of mustering up Pawan Hans and IAF choppers was examined, but the entire logistics of it dont lend to easy execution, especially in an emergency like Mumbai...First, someone in the security chain has to "know" that choppers are available, also the person who can muster enough no of pilots to operate the choppers, get the choppers fuelled and technically cleeared for flying, and most importantly get enough choppers (the Pawan Hans uses Bell I think - they would not be able to carry more than 8-9 troopers with equipment) to transport 200 men...If they land on Oval maidan, transport has to be again organised between Oval Maidan and Taj..Given all of this, asking the Police Chief to organise a fleet of buses to take the troops directly from their aircraft to Taj was to me a fairly resourceful innovation than trying a multi layered exercise for choppers...JMT..

[Gaur]

Quite wrong. There is an option for volunteer entry, but NSG is nowhere near an "all volunteer force (same as Para SF)".
Nearly all the NSG personnel are on deputation. Unlike PARA SF, where there is "no" deputation. In PARA SF, "every" soldier is a volunteer.

You are confusing "deputation" with volunteer. Deputation only means that the personnel revert back to another, parent unit after completion of their deputation - it happens in all departments of the govt all the time..But some deputations are "volunteer" in nature, while most are not..Deputation to RR (which is another "deputationist" force) is NOT volunteer - any battalion/personnel earmarked for RR has to go, there is no choice..NSG, on the other hand, is made up of volunteer deputationists..So people are asked to apply, and if selected they are posted to NSG for a fixed tenure (I think 3 years, extendable for another 3 years, or something to that effect)..After the tenure, they revert back to their parent organisations/units..

It is the same with NSG as it is with RR. The soldiers asked to go have no choice. Their is option for volunteer deputation but every NSG soldier is not a volunteer. Soldiers from various regiments are "sent" there on deputation. If they are found to be up to the mark, they are kept, else they are returned to the unit. I had once questioned RayC Sir regarding this very topic. He also said the same thing.

ADDED LATER:
The only difference b/n RR and NSG may be that there is option to volunteer for NSG. I do not know if this option is available for RR.

[RayC]

Gaur,

If I remember correctly, one is posted to the NSG depending on the vacancy and other criteria.

Thereafter, they are on probation and if found fit are taken into the NSG for the tenure applicable.

RR is on posting for the tenure applicable. There is no probation.

[somnath]

^^^Gaur, if what you are sayng is correct, NSG will be "Martian" in the community of elite special forces...All special forces of the world (GSG9, SAS, FBI HRT, Delta, Sayaret et al) are volunteer forces - they have to be given their high rejection rates in entry...How can you "mandate" someone to serve in the NSG unless he is found good enough for it?

http://nsg.gov.in/june08/QRsNSG.htm

This gives a snapshot of basic requirements for entry into NSG..

[Gaur]

^^
Yes, NSG is truly a exception as far as SFs go. My understanding of NSG deputation procedure is something like the following:
Vacancies crop up in NSG. ->Various regiments are asked to provide men for NSG -> In addition to these, some soldiers also volunteer. -> These men are tested for their various attributes. -> Those found eligible are deputed while rest are sent back to their respective units.
RayC Sir, am I correct in my understanding? Or is the procedure different?

[RayC]

^^
Yes, "NSG" is truly a exception as far as SFs go. My understanding of NSG deputation procedure is something like the following:
Vacancies crop up in NSG. ->Various regiments are asked to provide men for NSG -> In addition to these, some soldiers also volunteer. -> These men are tested for their various attributes. -> Those found eligible are deputed while rest are sent back to their respective units.
RayC Sir, am I correct in my understanding? Or is the procedure different?

What you write is correct, though I wonder if there is a provision for volunteering.

I will check up with one of my officers who was in the NSG and come back to you.

[Gaur]

^^
Thank you sir. Could you also inquire about the rough ratio of volunteers in NSG(if any)?

[pgbhat]

^
Should'nt one of the well informed rakshaks write up an article on NSG/Marcos for SRR as well.
I would assume things would have changed since the last article in BR, or am I wrong?

[RayC]

I just checked.

It is on deputation.

One is asked if he wants to join or not. If one does not want to join, one is sent back.

The MS 3 selects the officers.

For jawans more than 50% are from Para/ SF, remainder is distributed to the Infantry and some to the Armoured Corps. The Training Centre of each Regt decides who is to go for the NSG as far as the PBOR is concerned.

Those who have Qualified Instructor status at the Scools of Instructionare kept at the Training Centre, but they have the option to volunteer for the SAG. All undergo a three months intensive training.

After the probation period, which finally decides the acceptance.

[pgbhat]

edited.
sorry. thanks RayC. I never knew.

[Gaur]

One is asked if he wants to join or not. If one does not want to join, one is sent back.

The MS 3 selects the officers.

That is very interesting. But Sir, with all these new NSG hubs being set up in such a short time, it surely cannot be that simple? There would be instantaneous requirement for thousands of NSG personnel. So would the regiments not be under pressure to send x amount of soldiers no matter the volunteer number? After all, the vacancies have to filled.

Also Sir, what is MS 3?

[RayC]

Gaur,

Honestly speaking I would not know how they will manage the hubs.

MS 3 Is Military Secretary's Branch Section 3 that deals with deputation to non Army organisations.

[Raja Bose]

^^^Gaur, if what you are sayng is correct, NSG will be "Martian" in the community of elite special forces...All special forces of the world (GSG9, SAS, FBI HRT, Delta, Sayaret et al) are volunteer forces - they have to be given their high rejection rates in entry...How can you "mandate" someone to serve in the NSG unless he is found good enough for it?

After one is asked to go on deputation, he will still have to meet NSG fitness standards and skill-level otherwise he is RTU'ed (there was atleast 1 she who qualified too). So if someone is not good enough he is sent back to his parent unit and this drop out rate is not trivial.

BTW this system is true for a lot of other countries' SF too - even though there may not be a formal order for deputation, COs are "encouraged" to push men with specific skills under their command to volunteer for the SF units. - this is cause for mucho since the COs lose some of their best men in this way. But then SF need to maintain their numbers too despite their high qualitative requirements hence, such hera-pheri is allowed.

[somnath]

One is asked if he wants to join or not. If one does not want to join, one is sent back.

The MS 3 selects the officers.

That is very interesting. But Sir, with all these new NSG hubs being set up in such a short time, it surely cannot be that simple? There would be instantaneous requirement for thousands of NSG personnel. So would the regiments not be under pressure to send x amount of soldiers no matter the volunteer number? After all, the vacancies have to filled.

Also Sir, what is MS 3?

PRecisely the reason why a lot of people think that the NSG hub idea is not a great one..One wonders whether it is possible to maintain the "elite" nature of the force with vastly expanded numbers..

However, as of now, they are milking the current numbers (for example, by reducing NSG deployment for VIP security).

In the long run, the really viable solution would be to get competent SWAT units in the city police force, while NSG is used really as the tip of the spear..

[Raja Bose]

In the long run, the really viable solution would be to get competent SWAT units in the city police force, while NSG is used really as the tip of the spear..

...and for that the cry-baby pandu-giri mentality of the police has to change (starting with the IPS) - lets hope that happens before the next 26/11 strikes.

[Gaur]

PRecisely the reason why a lot of people think that the NSG hub idea is not a great one..One wonders whether it is possible to maintain the "elite" nature of the force with vastly expanded numbers..

True. I also worry about that.

However, as of now, they are milking the current numbers (for example, by reducing NSG deployment for VIP security)

I do not quite understand your statement. VIP security is provided by SRT. Though reducing NSG deployment for VIP security is a welcome move, how does it help to help provide men for new hubs (by milking the current numbers as you say) in the current scenario?

[somnath]

^^^ Gaur, VIP security was being done primarily by NSG's SRG till now (for those with Z cat and above)..That duty is now being progressively shifted to CISF, thus freeing up manpower from NSG, some of which can be dpeloyed in the hubs..

[Craig Alpert]

Indian villages along Punjab border came under attack from Pak

ATTARI: Six rockets were fired from Pakistan into Indian territory shortly past Friday midnight. Two rockets fell inside the Border Security Force's Kangarh border outpost (BOP)

Luckily, the rockets did not explode. The BOP is barely half a kilometre from the Indo-Pakistan border. In retaliation, the BSF opened machine gun and mortar fire targeting Pakistan’s KS Wala BOP area, from which the rockets had come. The location of the rest of the rockets fired from the Pakistani side could not be ascertained because of the thick fog that has enveloped these areas.

This is the third rocket attack within six months from Pakistan targeting Indian villages. The earlier rockets were fired into Indian villages in July and September.

Himmat Singh, the BSF's inspector general (frontier), told TOI that six rockets were fired from Pakistan between 12.10am and12.30am. He said the BSF had retaliated strongly and opened machine gun and mortar fire. Following the rocket attacks, the BSF held a meeting with the Pak Rangers commandant, Sher Jhang, and lodged a strong protest, Singh said, adding that no damage or injury was reported.

He said the Pak Rangers had not mentioned any casualty due to firing from the Indian side. He apprehended the hand of Pakistani terrorist groups behind the attack. However, he did not rule out the possibility of the involvement of the Pak Rangers.

Meanwhile, there is panic in the border villages. Manjit Kaur, a resident of Modhae village, said she had heard the blasts around midnight and came out of her house along with other family members. She said: “We thought Pakistan had attacked us as we heard three to four blasts in a short duration. Luckily, it wasn’t a war.” She said the Indian government must take measures to prevent such incidents and restore confidence.

[Craig Alpert]

^^ 6 rockets fired under 20 minutes.. That's an average of just over 3 minutes to fire each rocket!!!! Sounds a bit too long but then again, I'm glad it's the TSP and not apna bharat!

[gogna]

We should take lessons from this attack on punjabi soil. We should have WLR(BEL or amreki) cover on entire punjabi border and backed by pinaka's. None of this garbage we couldn't see them in fog.

[Surya]

somnath


got a reply

The NSG is always desperate for trained SF guys who form their core team for all aspects.
so each SF unit has been given vacancies to be filled up.

The CO has job of filling these up. He asks for volunteers - if they happen to be from the area/someone close to Delhi/ an urge to earn an extra buck by means of a Deputation allowance(over and above his current pay)/ someone feels - enough of militant hunting in kashmir or Assam , such guys opt for NSG.

If guys do not volunteer - then the CO has to push these guys in.


Guys from non SF Army units volunteer and have to go through a probation SUPERViSED by the SF men

[Craig Alpert]

India has lost 'substantial' land to China: Official report

EW DELHI: The area along Line of Actual Control with China has "shrunk" over a period of time and India has lost "substantial" amount of land in the last two decades, says an official report.

At a recent meeting held in Leh which was attended by officials from the Jammu and Kashmir government, Ministry of Home Affairs and Army, it was agreed that there was difference in the maps of various agencies and that there was lack of proper mapping of the area.

The meeting was chaired by Commissioner (Leh) A K Sahu and attended among others by Brigadier General Staff of 14 Corps Brig Sarat Chand and Colonel Inderjit Singh.

While the absence of proper map was agreed upon, the meeting all the same felt, "however, it is clear and be accepted that we are withdrawing from LAC and our area has shrunk over a period of time."

"Though this process if very slow but we have lost substantial amount of land in 20-25 years," it was said at the meeting held last month.

According to the minutes of the meeting, it was also identified that "there is a lack of institutional memory in various agencies as well as clear policy on this issue which in long run has resulted in loss of territory by the India in favour of China."

The meeting was called to ensure proper protection to nomads who move with their cattle to Dokbug area of Nyoma sector during the winter months every year. In December 2008, Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) had damaged their tents and threatened them to vacate the land.

"They (Chinese) have threatened the nomadic people who had been using Dokbug area (in Ladakh sector) area for grazing since decades long, in a way to snatch our land in inches. A Chinese proverb is famous in the world - better do in inches than in yards," a report filed by former Sub Divisional Magistrate (Nyoma) Tsering Norboo had said.

Norboo was deputed by the state government to probe complaints of incursion of the Chinese Army in Dokbug area and threats to the local shepherds to leave the land as it belonged to them. The area has been used by the shepherds to graze their livestock as the area is warmer compared to other parts of Ladakh.

The SDM contended that it was another attempt by the Chinese to claim the territory as disputed in the same fashion as they had taken Nag Tsang area opposite to Phuktse airfield in 1984, Nakung in 1991 and Lungma-Serding in 1992.

The area of Dokbug and Doley Tango was frequented by shepherds and nomads from December to March every year during which their young lambs were capable to walk.

The SDM has also highlighted the fact that Army stopped these nomads from vacating the land. The nomads were terrified by the Chinese threats.

Last year, Chinese troops had entered nearly 1.5 km into the Indian territory on July 31 near Mount Gya, recognised as International border by India and China, and painted boulders and rocks with "China" and "Chin9" in red spray paint.

The 22,420 ft Mount Gya, also known as "fair princess of snow" by Army, is located at the tri-junction of Ladakh in Jammu and Kashmir, Spiti in Himachal Pradesh, and Tibet. Its boundary was marked during the British era and regarded as International border by the two countries.

Before this, Chinese helicopters had violated Indian air space on June 21 along the Line of Actual Control in Chumar region and also helli-dropped some expired food.

[Dmurphy]

Army hunts for night-vision goggles for its copter pilots

[somnath]

somnath


got a reply

The NSG is always desperate for trained SF guys who form their core team for all aspects.
so each SF unit has been given vacancies to be filled up.

The CO has job of filling these up. He asks for volunteers - if they happen to be from the area/someone close to Delhi/ an urge to earn an extra buck by means of a Deputation allowance(over and above his current pay)/ someone feels - enough of militant hunting in kashmir or Assam , such guys opt for NSG.

If guys do not volunteer - then the CO has to push these guys in.


Guys from non SF Army units volunteer and have to go through a probation SUPERViSED by the SF men

Surya, I had heard slightly differently. Thanks to the higher pay and family station posting, there is no dearth of volunteers for NSG, in fact individual unit COs sometimes refuse to release key personnel!

[somnath]

Interesting take by Praveen Swami on the Panjab Hotel operation..

http://beta.thehindu.com/news/national/ ... epage=true

But the comparison between the performance of the local police/CRP with those of the NSG/Army on these ops is moot..

[negi]

Surya, I had heard slightly differently. Thanks to the higher pay and family station posting, there is no dearth of volunteers for NSG, in fact individual unit COs sometimes refuse to release key personnel!

Yes its true and same holds good for the posting in hazardous areas like 'Siachin' there is no dearth of the volunteers , having said that I don't know if things have changed after the implementation of 6th pay commission recommendations.

[RayC]

Officers and soldiers from non SF units don't volunteer for the SAG. They are nominated and if they don't want to join, they can drop out.

For Siachen, the units are sent as per the programme and the routine. There is no volunteering as such.

[raghava]

A superb article by Ajai Shukla on how the establishment exerts control over the military.

Some very valid points raised... Please everybody - this is a must read

http://www.business-standard.com/india/ ... ry/382416/

[Surya]

somnath

No self respecting SF guy would exchange a NSG posting when he young and raring to go.


Seriously would you exchange sitting in Maneswar (ok now some other cities) training for a possible CT ops compared to slipping under cover in J&K, making long rage missions to hunt militants in the deep NE - not to mention somethings which I cannot mention here??

Ok some would - the SF boys call them Paras

anyway what I mentioned was based on talking to a couple of former SF COs.

[Riza Zaman]

From my (limited) exposure to former/current NSG/Para officer with the Military Attache a couple of months ago:

The NSG is very unhappy with the hub implementation. Decentralization of training, dilution of skill-pool, resource scarcity were cited as the primary reasons - along with the complaint that while they had been asking for new equipment for over 52 months (including the replacement of faulty gas masks, thermal imagers, BPJs a number of which failed ballistic tests + new communication gear, new sub-sonic ammunition, etc.).

Identifying high-profile targets in hub cities "on the ground" including mass transit points like airports, railway stations, bus terminal, Delhi & Kolkatta metro systems, etc + large high-profile schools, hotels - you get the idea.

They have asked for an increase in their "tail" ratio - more support personnel in the SRG specifically for bomb detection & defusal, maintenance, medical, etc.

[Singha]

it seems FMS is the only route to save India itself! nothing seems to move an inch without delays, controversy, ego clashes, political games and scandal on purchase front.

unless the HM and PM crack down on the retards at various places in the woodwork and streamline brutally,
we are in for tough times. pranabda and antony sir have vanished into vanaprasthashram. only PC and MMS seem
to be in active mode these days.

[shyamd]

Times Now spend a night at the Border. Video link

Shows thermal imagers in operation etc.

[Amit J]

Times Now spend a night at the Border. Video link

Shows thermal imagers in operation etc.

Was that a flame thrower that one of the guards was holding ??

[Gaur]

^^
India (along with most countries) do not use flame throwers.

[Amit J]

^^
India (along with most countries) do not use flame throwers.

^^ So what was it then ??, it sure looked weird to me

[Gaur]

Looks like a rifle grenade to me.

[gogna]

India soldier killed by fire from Pakistan Kashmir

An Indian paramilitary soldier has been killed in firing from the Pakistani side on the Line of Control (LoC) which divides Kashmir, Indian officials say.

Indian army officials said Pakistani troops opened fire on Indian positions in Poonch. There was no immediate response from Pakistan.

The trooper Shurvir Singh was hit by a bullet and died on the spot in Sabzian sector of Poonch district, about 240 km north-east of Jammu. Pakistani troops opened fire on the Indian positions around 11.30 a.m. The firing was retaliated by the BSF

Indian Defence Minister AK Antony is visiting border areas near Jammu.

The Indian army described Monday evening's incident as "yet another violation of ceasefire" agreed between India and Pakistan in November 2003.

The incident happened in the Sabzian area in Poonch along the Line of Control (LoC) about 240 km north-west of Jammu.

The LoC separates Indian- and Pakistani-administered Kashmir.

On Monday, Indian security forces said they had foiled a "fourth attempt by militants" to infiltrate the international border in Indian-administered Kashmir since the beginning of January.

About 30,000 troops have been withdrawn from Indian-administered Kashmir as rebel attacks have decreased.

Violence in Indian-administered Kashmir has declined dramatically in recent years.

India and Pakistan declared a ceasefire in 2003 but suspended peace talks after the 2008 Mumbai (Bombay) attacks, which India blamed on Pakistan-based militants.