Indian Army: News & Discussion

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 06 Feb 2010 01:36

From IDSA
Nuclear Implications of the ‘Two Front’ Formulation ---- Ali Ahmed
India professes No First Use as a principal plank of its nuclear doctrine, one diluted to an extent by the tenet of consideration of the nuclear option in case also of a major CBW attack. China also subscribes to the NFU, though believed to be qualified by it reserving the right to use nuclear weapons first on its own territory. In case territories it claims are taken by it as its ‘own’ then these would not be covered by the NFU. The Indian perspective of the Chinese NFU has it that it does not apply to Indian areas claimed by China. Pakistan, on the other hand, not having declared its nuclear doctrine, is believed to be preserving the option of ‘first use’.

For the single front phase in this scenario, with respect to an India-Pakistan initial phase, deterrence stability has been assessed as existing up to a point. The arguable expectation is that Pakistan’s high nuclear threshold permits limited Indian conventional attacks. In case of an initial phase of an India-China confrontation, war expansion would be against grand strategies of both states that privileges economic growth. But in case China, nursing superpower ambitions and out to ‘teach India a lesson’, is met with a face-altering bloody nose by India, it could find in its NFU caveat an opening for nuclear resort. In the reverse scenario, in case of Chinese ‘hordes’ poised to sweep into the plains along the rivers Brahmaputra or Teesta, a repeat of Nehru’s speech leading to evacuation in Tezpur is unlikely. Instead India in self-defence may rescind its self-imposed NFU as a first step, thereby giving itself the option of nuclear first use.

In the collusive case, the two adversaries would attack under the perception of relative advantage. Nuclear use would not likely figure in their initial calculus. India, under pressure, could contemplate rescinding the NFU with the intent of nuclear signalling. This may be the minimum necessary in case the adversaries apply nuclear pressures by also brandishing the nuclear card. This would have operational dividend in making any enemy advances cautious and thereby slower. Declaring nuclear thresholds may deter the enemy threatening these, depriving them of war gains of significance. Balancing nuclear capabilities of allies could deter enemy nuclear use. However, the danger is in tempting a joint first strike, leaving India only a much degraded second strike capability. However, any semblance of even victory subsequent to nuclear use may be a worse outcome than losing the war. Therefore, restricting any nuclear resort to the lowest possible level makes sense. This has implications for the Indian deterrent based on the promise of infliction of ‘unacceptable damage’, needlessly disadvantageous in a two front situation.

In the second scenario of war expansion from two to three powers, in case of an initial India-China conflict, NFU, howsoever qualified, of both can be expected to hold since in the middle term future only limited border wars can be envisaged. Neither state would wish to let the dangerously escalatory nuclear card enter into the equation. In case of Pakistan joining in hyena-like, it would rely on its conventional capability since the nuclear card would be dependent on the senior partner’s intent. India, if pressured, may resort to nuclear signalling at best, since it cannot reasonably prefer the alternative of limited nuclear war that may result.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 06 Feb 2010 07:47

Hope this has not been posted

http://www.openthemagazine.com/article/ ... agtag-army

India's Ragtag army :?:

seriously this mag will give Toilet a run for its money - even the most newbie BRite will find this riddled with errors

sample this :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:


For heavy lifting too, India only has clunky old Mi-17s and Mi-26s. Last year, the Army did put out a request for information on 12 heavy lift helicopters, including the latest Mi-17s and Boeing Chinooks, but the process is likely to take at least three years before they are inducted. Meanwhile, the Army may have to depend on indigenously made Dhruv choppers, which aren’t world class.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 06 Feb 2010 09:02

ramana wrote:Negi, Currently threats to India need countering from IA and IAF and the IN in that order. So delays in IN wont hurt so much as the former cases. Also IN has a long range planning program which is mainly based on in country building (six ships of a class). Cant steal from garden Reach Workshop or Mazgoan Docks!* If you recall (sorry you were too young) the HDW submarine deal had some taint. And what else who knows.

I think IA is being made an example of by the politicians.



HDW was to put it politely a trifle dodgy a deal and the Def Secy was the fall guy but he managed to weave out.

It was whether one should go in for the HDW or Kokum (Swedish). Kokum was a better submarine.

I was in AHQ at that time. Our carpool had the Commodore Submarine Arm and another submariner as we all had temporary accommodation at the same place.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 06 Feb 2010 09:41

ramana wrote:One of the biggest causes of the delay is the arranging of the pay off to the political coffers. And INC is the biggest at siphoning off funds as commissions. Bofors is a case in point. Lotus account in Swiss banks. So the Forces might make the technical recommendation but it gets hung up till the payment is arranged. And in some cases INC demands multiple payments when the minsters change.


Making money out of any public sector contracts is an old political habit - congress has no monopoly over it, and India is not Robinson Crusoe about it either, happens in all countries..Planning is all about working out the most efficient outcome given the constraints, as an ideal world of honest (and strategically wise, hawkish etc etc) politicians, accomodating bureaucrats et al are, well, utopian..

The key point is this

IN has a long range planning program which is mainly based on in country building (six ships of a class). Cant steal from garden Reach Workshop or Mazgoan Docks


As I said earlier, domestic equipment has one unbeatable advantage - it is scam proof...But the IA/IAF will insist on an uber foreign tank, and scuttle Arjun, a non-existant SAM system, but not Akash, wait indefninitely for that imported arty, but not start a domestic programme..IAF will not plan for the M2k upgrade in time, even as it wants more of that, the stories are endless!!

Not to talk of shoddy plannning, shoddier legal paperwork with vendors - there is supposed to be a general staff whose job is to do all of this, isnt it?

It is so much easier to keep moaning about "correupt, indecisive politicians, laid back babus" ad infinitum..

RayC wrote:It was whether one should go in for the HDW or Kokum (Swedish). Kokum was a better submarine.


Well, HDW has had a far better record of selling its subs than Sweden has, maybe they do a great job of "bribing" all potential buyers!! :wink: My conversations with naval officers who have been involved in both building as well as operating the HDW have given me a diffrent impression - IN simply loves the sub..Compared to the Velas and Kilos it is considered to be a dream to operate, and its uptime and facilities are top notch..While there might have been money exchanged, its very difficult to conclude that HDW was inferior to the Kckums..Just like Bofors was not inferior to the French gun..In such equipment the difference is often very marginal...

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby negi » 06 Feb 2010 10:03

Yep U-209s are Mirage2000s of the IN sub fleet expensive but a submariner's dream . And these babies have a integrated escape capsule designed specifically for the IN . Anyways my point in comparing the three services was that despite HDW, Barak, War room leak , IN has been able to get its platforms dealing with the same set of Babus which IA has to deal with .

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Prem » 06 Feb 2010 10:09

ramana wrote:
One of the biggest causes of the delay is the arranging of the pay off to the political coffers. And INC is the biggest at siphoning off funds as commissions. Bofors is a case in point. Lotus account in Swiss banks. So the Forces might make the technical recommendation but it gets hung up till the payment is arranged. And in some cases INC demands multiple payments when the minsters change.


No secret , what happen to Qatari Mirage deal . :twisted:

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 06 Feb 2010 10:52

somnath wrote:



RayC wrote:It was whether one should go in for the HDW or Kokum (Swedish). Kokum was a better submarine.


Well, HDW has had a far better record of selling its subs than Sweden has, maybe they do a great job of "bribing" all potential buyers!! :wink: My conversations with naval officers who have been involved in both building as well as operating the HDW have given me a diffrent impression - IN simply loves the sub..Compared to the Velas and Kilos it is considered to be a dream to operate, and its uptime and facilities are top notch..While there might have been money exchanged, its very difficult to conclude that HDW was inferior to the Kckums..Just like Bofors was not inferior to the French gun..In such equipment the difference is often very marginal...


I am from the Vickers Machine Gun unit. I love it. If you speak to me, I will tell you how great it is. I will not tell you that in High Altitude, it being water cooled, it freezes and becomes a lemon!

Speak to the submariners who have Captained the Kilo Class subs. They are all praise.

So, we get enamoured to our equipment.

Nothing new.

Well I know nothing of submarines as a Naval submariners would. But then the submariners of that time when the bids were on, have different views. I rather go with their views.

But then you have your views and I respect that.

I recommend that you buy the magazine Purple Berets. It has many articles of the subs right from the Kilo class to the current and also the operating conditions and how training is done!

It was an eyeopener for me, even though I have many submariners who are my friends and have heard their anecdotes!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby aditp » 06 Feb 2010 11:15

RayC wrote:
I am from the Vickers Machine Gun unit. I love it. If you speak to me, I will tell you how great it is. I will not tell you that in High Altitude, it being water cooled, it freezes and becomes a lemon!


Why doesnt the army add anti freeze soulution to the water, and better still use an automotive coolant (Any Maruti dealer will happily provide), to cool the guns. Believe me, it wont require any design modifications. This is a time tested way of preventing coolant from freezing at upto -30 degrees celcius. The lemon may still be squeezeable for juice at high altitudes.

JMT

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 06 Feb 2010 13:15

RayC wrote:I am from the Vickers Machine Gun unit. I love it. If you speak to me, I will tell you how great it is. I will not tell you that in High Altitude, it being water cooled, it freezes and becomes a lemon!

Speak to the submariners who have Captained the Kilo Class subs. They are all praise.

So, we get enamoured to our equipment.


Well, all Indian submariners are broken in on Russian subs - first the Vela class for training and then the Kilos for operational stints..In fact the fascination for the HDWs is greatest on account of the "contrast effect" it has w.r.t the Kilos..But OT here..there isnt any submariner in the IN who does not have experience on both classes..

The point is things like bribery etc are given, part of life..The IN got so enamoured of the HDWs that it waited indefinitely for the lines to be re-opened, which didnt happen...In the meanwhile, a "scam free" option would have been to import more Kilos..Maybe that would have been an option worth considering?

But IN is much b etter in prospective planning, the other two services not so much..

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 06 Feb 2010 13:30

I would recommend reading by those interested the article 'The Navy's Netherworld' by Commodore Premjeet Franklin (Retd) to understand the selection and training process and to understand how different types of submarines are totally different and one of the test is to blindfold check each system and identify it. Vice Admiral Arun Kumar Singh's article 'For bravehearts only' gives how India upgraded the subs to meet Indian requirements.

And an interesting article by Parthip Thyagarajan 'The Brand called Army'. The author is not an Armed Forces person, but is a Mumbai based entrepreneur and writer. His father was in the Army or so I beleive.

They are available in Purple Beret Jan 2010.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 06 Feb 2010 14:13

aditp wrote:
RayC wrote:
I am from the Vickers Machine Gun unit. I love it. If you speak to me, I will tell you how great it is. I will not tell you that in High Altitude, it being water cooled, it freezes and becomes a lemon!


Why doesnt the army add anti freeze soulution to the water, and better still use an automotive coolant (Any Maruti dealer will happily provide), to cool the guns. Believe me, it wont require any design modifications. This is a time tested way of preventing coolant from freezing at upto -30 degrees celcius. The lemon may still be squeezeable for juice at high altitudes.

JMT


True, but what would be the weight. Who would carry it? How much of space would be required and where to store it before it was ferried to the troops? How much of transportation would it be required? How many vehicles which could have been used to otherwise use useful war materiel or Winter Stocking be spared for the coolant and what would it be to the operational and logistic situation before the pass closed?

It is not so easy as it appears.

Do also check up how much it costs to airlift loads to high altitude when the passes are closed.

Please understand that the the biggest problem of war-fighting is not fighting. It is logistics.

Nation is already squeezed of the lemon called the rising prices and the new initiative to raise fuel and cooking gas prices apart from the daily food!

If we are ready to be squeezed further of our daily existence, then I have no complaints of adding juice of the coolant for the Vickers!

But that is the problem. You and I can agree, but the Nation? Rahul G and not Rahul M is touring the country for what is known as votes. Will he be amendable?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Surya » 06 Feb 2010 19:24

RayC

Is the purple beret avail online?? If not where?
Thanks

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 06 Feb 2010 21:08

Surya wrote:RayC

Is the purple beret avail online?? If not where?
Thanks


Though I have recd their first edition, I don't think it is on line without a subs.

Google purpleberet.com

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Craig Alpert » 07 Feb 2010 00:45

Image

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 07 Feb 2010 06:24

As I had said earlier, there will be issues since Army Rule 170 was not applied.

Thus, the C of I is void and the whole case will have to be reviewed de novo.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby abhay » 07 Feb 2010 09:18

Combat Unready

Apologize if it has ben posted, but a very uncomfortable read. Coming from Sandeep Unnithan, I would not dismiss it out of hand. Most of the problems mentioned are known or suspected, but some of the statements made me cringe

Unhappy with the indigenous 5.56 mm INSAS rifle introduced as the standard infantry weapon a decade ago, the army now wants to import a new assault rifle

I was of the impression that problems with INSAS had been ironed out and the IA is happy with it.

"The infantryman is poorly trained and equipped, high on bravado and low on equipment and training. I would give him a 3/10,"
Poor equipment and training means ten army soldiers do the job that can be done by three.
Still grit and raw courage of jawans and young officers remains the back bone of our infantry rather than technical superiority over the adversary.


the prototype of the F-INSAS project was to have been fielded by 2012 but may materialise only around 2017.
In 2008, the army pulled the plug on the Sathi or the Situation Awareness and Tactical Handheld Information, billed as the world's first hand-held battle computer, which would give the infantry soldier essential requirements like GPS coordinates and digital maps. The army said the item could be purchased off the shelf.

No doubt have not heard much about Sathi and F-INSAS lately.

Current internal projections of the Indian Army say it will be ready to address a 'two-front war' against China and Pakistan only by 2025.

We will continue to be severely constrained in dealing with TSP.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ramana » 07 Feb 2010 10:27

With news like his what can MMS do other than talk to TSP terrorists?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Prem » 07 Feb 2010 11:03

ramana wrote:With news like his what can MMS do other than talk to TSP terrorists?


Our biggest weakness, lack of instituional integrity as well transparecy and personality centric decision making at the top. The darn whole Daal is Kalli.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby pgbhat » 07 Feb 2010 11:14

abhay wrote:Combat Unready

The infantryman is poorly trained and equipped, high on bravado and low on equipment and training. I would give him a 3/10," says Lt-General H. S. Panag, former northern army commander.

Depressing read. :x

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby sum » 07 Feb 2010 11:21

the prototype of the F-INSAS project was to have been fielded by 2012 but may materialise only around 2017.
In 2008, the army pulled the plug on the Sathi or the Situation Awareness and Tactical Handheld Information, billed as the world's first hand-held battle computer, which would give the infantry soldier essential requirements like GPS coordinates and digital maps. The army said the item could be purchased off the shelf.

Damn, even the SATHI was junked? :x

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Sachin » 07 Feb 2010 11:57

sum wrote:Damn, even the SATHI was junked? :x

Had met an officer who was then in J&K and was part of the team who tested SATHI in real-life situations. He said that the device was extremely slow, and that led to delay in operations. Finally they had to rely on age old techniques (wireless). So the army never accepted SATHI. But instead of junking they (and the agency who developed it) should have learnt from the experience and try to improve it. It is really sad that we just throw away a thing, just because it did not work well the first time. We cannot develop any product which is 100% defect free at the word 'Go'.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 07 Feb 2010 12:05

The article contains information that is correct and some facts given an interpretation to project a not happy picture. Must have some interest to do so.

It would be incorrect to feel that the PBI is poorly trained. Equipment could always improve. Lt Gen Panag is a very demanding officer and a perfectionist and so his opinion is not surprising.

Modernisation, Shortage and deficiency in not procuring the weapon systems is the issue with the GOI and the slippages in production of the OFB, which also include shoddy manufacture as the case of a grenade not detonating.

Unless the GOI shapes out, it will be an armed force that is not ready in an efficient way, but it will still deliver - we fight with what we have as Gen Malik has correctly stated.

It is time the Nation puts pressure on the GOI to do their bit. India expects every man to do his duty to take licence of Nelson's word.

It is time the MPs learn about defence.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Kersi D » 07 Feb 2010 17:29

RayC wrote:I would recommend reading by those interested the article 'The Navy's Netherworld' by Commodore Premjeet Franklin (Retd) to understand the selection and training process and to understand how different types of submarines are totally different and one of the test is to blindfold check each system and identify it. Vice Admiral Arun Kumar Singh's article 'For bravehearts only' gives how India upgraded the subs to meet Indian requirements.

And an interesting article by Parthip Thyagarajan 'The Brand called Army'. The author is not an Armed Forces person, but is a Mumbai based entrepreneur and writer. His father was in the Army or so I beleive.

They are available in Purple Beret Jan 2010.


Where cab=n we get this book / mag ?

K

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 07 Feb 2010 18:19

^^^some of the articles that come out periodically are part of "internal psywar", often inspired by insiders to create pressure on decisionmakers...Seldom are these balanced, but then in a 500 word piece in a newspaper/mag, the writer has to put in stark language to get an essential message across..Remember the number of articles in Time/Newsweek detailing the inadequacies of the US Army in Iraq? On how soldiers are spending from their own pocket to buy buller proof jackets?

The point is regardless of how "poorly equipped" Indian infantry is, is our adversary better equipped? Can Pakistan, with its bankrupt state, afford any more NVGs, battlefield computers than we do? Is the Paki standard infantry rifle (the G3) better than INSAS? Does the Paki armour have more night-fighting enabled tanks than India's? Do they manage to replenish their war reserves at a pace better than us? Pak's defence budget is about 6-7 billion, ours is 40 billion..Even accounting for higher headcounts in our case, thats a massive lead..So to conclude that our Army is not equipped to fight a foresseable war is not accurate...

but part of the blame is also on prioritisation...So much interest, passion and emotion goes in the shiny planes, arty and tanks that the "low level" stuff passes below the radar of both interest and money...So a C17 or a C130J can be cleared urgently under FMS, but light chopper hangs fire for years...Su30 add-on order happen almost every other year, but obviously not enough "add on" orders for NVGs! Gen Kapoor publicly laments about lack of night fighting tanks, but does not push through more LORROS/NVGs for RR!

But the SATHI story is a bit surprising..Palmtops with the capability to download images, data and store maps, or get GPS aided maps are common..Teenagers are moving around with cheaps ones all the time! Whats preventing the IA from getting a commercially available smartphone and plugging it into its Mercury Blaze (or whatver) network it has?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 07 Feb 2010 18:40

somnath wrote:The point is regardless of how "poorly equipped" Indian infantry is, is our adversary better equipped? Can Pakistan, with its bankrupt state, afford any more NVGs, battlefield computers than we do? Is the Paki standard infantry rifle (the G3) better than INSAS? Does the Paki armour have more night-fighting enabled tanks than India's? Do they manage to replenish their war reserves at a pace better than us? Pak's defence budget is about 6-7 billion, ours is 40 billion..Even accounting for higher headcounts in our case, thats a massive lead..So to conclude that our Army is not equipped to fight a foresseable war is not accurate...


^^
A gross oversimplification of the situation, at best.

A) Pakistan is not by a long shot the only threat on the horizon.

B ) The evidence, and this article, even, seems to point to the notion that Paki preparedness is at least as good, or even better than ours, and Chinese preparedness is far ahead.

C) If we end up with an armed force which is more powerful than that of our adversaries, that is a good thing. The objective of military planning is not just to be "good enough".

D) The "chalta hai" attitude referred to here, is something that I have seen, and remarked upon, as having crept into the army, for the last several years. One needs only to see the quality of care being provided in the major metros by army hospitals. It is disgraceful. But, the common reply given is, "this is how it is". A brief look at all units shows the men and officers living in various states of deprivation. But this is also considered de rigeur. If the army man complains, it is made out to be whingeing, demanding too much, (and occasionally, due to the creativity of our overfed bureaucrats, even mutiny!). But it is easy to see the decline in standards all through the army, and to a lesser extent in the lesser services. A symptom (and I show this only as a symptom, lest some of the army bashers here leap upon it), is that I frequently now see Brigadiers and Generals traveling in metros in Taxicabs with ridiculous flags and star plates on them, instead of staff cars. If even at that level there is shortage, then I dont know where the army has reached.
Last edited by ASPuar on 07 Feb 2010 18:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby somnath » 07 Feb 2010 18:53

ASPuar wrote:C) If we end up with an armed force which is more powerful than that of our adversaries, that is a good thing. The objective of military planning is not just to be "good enough".



Of course..the point was on looking at alarmist news reports in the right perspective..when people scream "rag tag army" etc., one needs to understand the context..

At the same time, no army barring the US will be "world class" in all areas..It is important therefore to identify the terrains, strategic spaces and situations that are pertinent for us, and create huge advantages there.. Israel is a good example of that..

In some ways, IMO we try to reach for US-esque ambitions...So we need carrier battle groups AND expeditionary capabilities AND large armour formations AND lots of multi role aircraft AND of course, CI capabilities...And maybe spread the pending "butter" too thin, instead of building on a few areas a massive advantage...

You mentioned China, yes, it is going to be the long term threat..And the big potential advantage we have over China in the foreseeable future is access to Western (and cutting edge Russian) tech...Therefore we need to leverage off that..Decide what strategic spaces would be moot in our confrontation wita h China, and then really ramp it up in technological terms over them. Are we going to exchange arty duels across the NE? Or will we exercise greater control by tighteningour noose around the straits of Malacca? And then make the choices - do we need thousands of new arty guns, or a few more cuttign edge ASW stealth ships?

These choices are to be made at the staff planning level - which is why the CDS is so important!!

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ASPuar » 07 Feb 2010 18:58

somnath wrote:

You mentioned China, yes, it is going to be the long term threat..And the big potential advantage we have over China in the foreseeable future is access to Western (and cutting edge Russian) tech...Therefore we need to leverage off that..



I strongly suspect that China has equally as much access to these technologies and money power. They also have the political will to make something of them.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby harbans » 07 Feb 2010 19:11

The point is regardless of how "poorly equipped" Indian infantry is, is our adversary better equipped? Can Pakistan, with its bankrupt state, afford any more NVGs, battlefield computers than we do?

It's not just a question of equipment. The user must be able to take to the equipment like a Paki takes to terrorism. For that our Forces need to be hiring more tech savvy Officers and Jawans. How can you have non technical Officers commanding an extremely technical battlefield set up 10 years down the line. If you have non technical minded people they will automatically veer to older conventional methods to deploy onthe battle field, because of inherent phobia with technology. Today the tech aspect of the future Officer andJawan must be taken into account before admitting to the armed forces.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Bheem » 07 Feb 2010 19:29

I think the learned jarnail should also tell us, in what way and manner, army interacted or helped the OFB-DRDO in developing the much needed systems.


I been pointing out in lot of posts since last many years on BRF that INSAS even though a good rifle is now slightly obsolete. But it needs just a few “minor” up gradation of the design to enter 21st century. The update has to replace the top hinged cover to lower receiver fall way field opening/stripping. So that optics / sights can be easily mounted and or uppers can be replaced for different barrel lengths.

But rather than spending a few months working with DRDO, the jarnails will spend years giving media bites (pun intended)

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby abhay » 07 Feb 2010 19:50

some of the articles that come out periodically are part of "internal psywar", often inspired by insiders to create pressure on decisionmakers...Seldom are these balanced, but then in a 500 word piece in a newspaper/mag, the writer has to put in stark language to get an essential message across..Remember the number of articles in Time/Newsweek detailing the inadequacies of the US Army in Iraq? On how soldiers are spending from their own pocket to buy buller proof jackets?

Accept your point, but with so much inertia and indifference at the decision making level (GOI & IA), we need a 'public movement' than 'internal psywar' to straighten things out. We have been fighting the Porkis in a low level conflict for more than 2 decades, but do just enough to maintain parity with them, rather than go in for overwhelming superiority. Our jawans and young officers continue to be treated as a dispensable commodity.

The point is regardless of how "poorly equipped" Indian infantry is, is our adversary better equipped? Can Pakistan, with its bankrupt state, afford any more NVGs, battlefield computers than we do? Is the Paki standard infantry rifle (the G3) better than INSAS? Does the Paki armour have more night-fighting enabled tanks than India's? Do they manage to replenish their war reserves at a pace better than us? Pak's defence budget is about 6-7 billion, ours is 40 billion..Even accounting for higher headcounts in our case, thats a massive lead.


This is exactly the point. Do we want a stalemate or a victory? Why be satisfied with parity? We should have an overwhelming superiority. We should be able to inflict maximum damage with minimal attrition to our own forces. Why do we still loose 1 or 2 jawans /young officers in a firefight with terrorists, in which we manage to knock off maybe a couple more of them? Your argument would have made sense 10 or 15 years ago. But now we have the resources to do it, and still remain indifferent. A well equipped foot soldier has a definite technical & psychological advantage over his adversary.

..So to conclude that our Army is not equipped to fight a foresseable war is not accurate...

We may be equipped to fight a war with TSP, but certainly not a 2 war front, which is a distinct posibility. We need parity with China, not TSP.

My 2 cents...back to lurking!

RayC
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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 07 Feb 2010 22:40

Kersi D wrote:
RayC wrote:I would recommend reading by those interested the article 'The Navy's Netherworld' by Commodore Premjeet Franklin (Retd) to understand the selection and training process and to understand how different types of submarines are totally different and one of the test is to blindfold check each system and identify it. Vice Admiral Arun Kumar Singh's article 'For bravehearts only' gives how India upgraded the subs to meet Indian requirements.

And an interesting article by Parthip Thyagarajan 'The Brand called Army'. The author is not an Armed Forces person, but is a Mumbai based entrepreneur and writer. His father was in the Army or so I beleive.

They are available in Purple Beret Jan 2010.


Where cab=n we get this book / mag ?

K


Try interacting atul.beret@gmail.com

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 07 Feb 2010 22:45

Bheem wrote:I think the learned jarnail should also tell us, in what way and manner, army interacted or helped the OFB-DRDO in developing the much needed systems.


I been pointing out in lot of posts since last many years on BRF that INSAS even though a good rifle is now slightly obsolete. But it needs just a few “minor” up gradation of the design to enter 21st century. The update has to replace the top hinged cover to lower receiver fall way field opening/stripping. So that optics / sights can be easily mounted and or uppers can be replaced for different barrel lengths.

But rather than spending a few months working with DRDO, the jarnails will spend years giving media bites (pun intended)


Could you be more explicit in clear statements how this rifle is not up to the standard?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 07 Feb 2010 23:11

^^
Sir,
I think he is mentioning the need to add Rail Integration System like Picatinny rail in INSAS. It should not take lot of money and effort to do that but it will be a great improvement to INSAS.
Perhaps it is not so relevant now considering the limited use of optical sights in IA, but it will be necessary in future. IMO, IA is in serious need of optical sights and UBGLs.
BTW, the new Carbine developed by DRDO has Picatinny rail and uses holographic sights by default. It is indeed a state of art weapon.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 07 Feb 2010 23:44

Gaur wrote:^^
Sir,
I think he is mentioning the need to add Rail Integration System like Picatinny rail in INSAS. It should not take lot of money and effort to do that but it will be a great improvement to INSAS.
Perhaps it is not so relevant now considering the limited use of optical sights in IA, but it will be necessary in future. IMO, IA is in serious need of optical sights and UBGLs.
BTW, the new Carbine developed by DRDO has Picatinny rail and uses holographic sights by default. It is indeed a state of art weapon.


I have used weapons as a part of professional requirement not that I was totally enamoured in hunting or killing!

I have graduated from the .303 through 7.62 to 5.56. And I sure know 5.56 kills!

I have gone through debates of the graduating from a killing calibre to a maiming calibre and their pros and cons.

I say, give me a weapon that fits the bill of the tactics being followed.

I am comfortable with the 7.62, but not too happy since it weighs more than the 5.56. 5.56 is lighter and I can carry more weight on myself for other things that are equally important.

I still have to fire the weapon at 300m since we cannot waste ammunition.

So, what should I have?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby RayC » 07 Feb 2010 23:50

Note: the biggest problem of the Infantry is the weight carried by the soldier.

Next is that the Infantry Battalion strength does not increase, so who carries the extra weapons which so many wants in the Bn?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 07 Feb 2010 23:56

I am afraid that I am unable to understand your point. Neither I nor Bheem had said anything regarding the calibre of INSAS.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby ArmenT » 08 Feb 2010 00:11

^^^
I think what he means is that the biggest problem is the combat load carried by an infantry soldier. Adding telescopes and UBGLs attached to picatinny rails to every weapon means carrying extra weight around for situations which are not going to occur most of the time and adds extra cost to the price of each weapon. Note that even in the US military, which has way more funding than India, not everyone in an infantry unit carries a scope and UBGL, only a select few do this.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 08 Feb 2010 00:35

ArmenT wrote:I think what he means is that the biggest problem is the combat load carried by an infantry soldier. Adding telescopes and UBGLs attached to picatinny rails to every weapon means carrying extra weight around for situations which are not going to occur most of the time and adds extra cost to the price of each weapon

True, combat load is important. But picatinny rails do not weigh much.

Note that even in the US military, which has way more funding than India, not everyone in an infantry unit carries a scope and UBGL, only a select few do this.

If one was to go by the media coverage of American Forces in Afganistan and Iraq, the perception would be that nearly all of them are equipped with optical sights and majority use UBGLs.
However, India is different from US. We do not have unlimited $. We also fight different kind of warfare. So it would be unfair to compare IA with US Army.
Yet, we are not also so short of funds. Millions of $ are returned every year by the IA because of lack of use. I am not saying that every soldier needs optical sight and UBGLs. But if you would look at IA personnel operating in J&K, you will sadly find that most are lacking UBGL. Surely you would agree that UBGLs add to the firepower in a major way and would put the forces in great advantage. Yet, as RayC Sir once commented, our rate of production of UBGLs is pathetically low. This is unfortunate to say the least considering our seriousness, intensity and frequency of CT operations.

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby nachiket » 08 Feb 2010 00:43

I haven't seen a single picture of of an IA soldier with a UBGL fitted to his INSAS. There are several pics of Para commandos carrying Tavors with UBGLs attached. But I've never seen the INSAS + UBGL or AKM + UBGL combo.

In a squad of say 10 men shouldn't atleast one or two be armed with UBGLs? And perhaps another two with day/night scopes?

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Re: Indian Army: News & Discussion

Postby Gaur » 08 Feb 2010 00:52

nachiket wrote:I haven't seen a single picture of of an IA soldier with a UBGL fitted to his INSAS. There are several pics of Para commandos carrying Tavors with UBGLs attached. But I've never seen the INSAS + UBGL or AKM + UBGL combo.

Well, the situation is not even that bad. Yes, apart from defence expos, I have also not seen pics INSAS with UBGLs (that may be because INSAS are not used much in CT operations) but I have seen plenty pics of AKMs with UBGLs. Yet I would like to see much more improvement as far as UBGLs are concerned.


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